F/T or P/K

[alewis0890]

OK so we want Sadie to grow and be a calm eater, with that being said no live mouse feedings... Whats your opinions on frozen thawed VS you prekilling the mouse/rat, some may find prekilling as inhumane but its for our kids so it really doesn't count. Frozen and thawed always comes to my mind as loosing some nutrients while being frozen but, If you grab you a rat/mouse out of the cage and knock it unconscious or kill it so it doesn't injure our monitor, tegu, or what ever you may have... sounds like the way to go if your not weak at heart. I just wanted to here everyone elses input on this... Does anyone have proof of the frozen thawed losing nutrients or staying full of them? I guess thats what i wanted to know...



Thanks.

 

[omgtaylorg]

Ill start by saying that I feed live, but in a different tank which helps with aggression alot because they look to the other tank as the source of food and not your hands. I would PK because it would still be a fresh rat and either way its not a very nice thing to do to a rat, i mean freezing to death doesnt sound fun to me, but not knocking it out is very quick and easy, either way its being eaten. Just my opinion. But feeding in a diff enclosure will help the food aggression alot, just put the food in the tank before you put the tegu or whatever else in there.

 

[alewis0890]

Oh yeah i got the separate tank, thats not an issue we just want to keep food aggression to a minimum, and I figure with her not having to chase down and kill she will be chill and just eat i guess lol I just always vision frozen anything losing nutrition through the whole process however without proof its false statement that live or freshly killed is healthier even though i believe so I guess I was kinda aiming to see if anyone has the proof.

 

[Red Earth Exotics]

I'm not sure if the frozen/thawed lose any nurtritional value. I have fed my snakes F/T rats for 13 years. The big reason I prefer doing it this way is that it kills any potential parasites, both external and internal. We as humans eat frozen/thawed meat all the time and I have never heard of any nutritional loss, doesn't mean it doesn't happen though. My opinion would be that if there is any nutritional loss it would be negligable. Well worth the benefits of F/T.

 

[alewis0890]

well the way I was looking at it is that I raise asf's and I know what they ate and how healthy they are and I could feed live but possible injuries and aggression could arrise from that. I would rather kill my own to have fresh food availible I could freeze them but in my opinion its better just to to feed them pre killed, since you put it in human terms, would you rather have a nice 20 once t-bone that has been frozen for some months, or a nice fresh juicy steak that melts apart in your mouth? lol

Oh and by the way, I LOVE your lavender albino retic! I saw a pic on your myspace of her.

 

[Red Earth Exotics]

Since you raise the soft furs then I would probably not freeze them either. Thanks for the kind words on my lavendar retic. I can't wait till she gets big!

 

[LouDog760]

If you breed your own mice or rats. P/K is the way to go IMO, unless you wanna feed live, which I think is fine. But you can make a Co2 gas chamber which is a humane way to kill them. And there fresh and warm, and you don't do deal with thawing them out.

 

[alewis0890]

I have a jar i use and put under a heat lamp... not to humane, but food.

 

[Beasty]

I also breed my own ASFs and mice and rats. I feed frozen thawed and prekilled. Pretty much what ever is convenient at the moment. I have found some animals seem to prefer FT some PK. My new blue tegu, for instance seems to like FT over PK. I have offered PK with no response and then FT with desired response. I figure, what ever as long as they eat. If you are going to kill using CO2 I would suggest using dry ice as it would much easier and possibly more cost effective, however, this practice should be followed(so I'm told) by freezing for about a month as CO2 is in the feeder animals system and you would not want it to transfer to the animal. I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that theory but there you have it. When I pre-kill my animals I take a screw driver and place it behind the head on the neck and pull the tail til the neck snaps. This seems to be quick and relatively painless and you can do several at a time on the spot if you have many to freeze or feed off.
I just got back into ASFs and am building up my stock while my extremes sleep hoping to have enough yielding to keep up with demand when they come out of hibernation. I'm thinking of switching exclusively to ASFs as they don't stink but then again they don't have the bone mass of regular rats either. I'm off to a decent start with 2 breeding pairs that have produced 2 litters each within the 1st month I had them. Now to grow the young and breed the biggest unrelated babies to strengthen my numbers and stock. I figure to get up to 8 females producing for me that might keep up with demand for 3 hungry hatchlings. Also with 4 regular large female rats producing as well I'm sure to keep up and freeze off extras.

 

[alewis0890]

I just wanted to see if anyone have proof of loss of nutrition but yeah, i have 5 breeding trios and some feeders too keep up with a baby tegu and a sav so hopefully it will work out, the tegu has gotten some growing to do before hes ready for even mice so i should have a little stock built, I can nevr find the spot on the back of the neck to do that way right, thats why i got the jar method...

 

[Beasty]

It's not like a sweet spot or anything. Just grab em by the tail and let them grab hold of the cage lid they'll try to pull away. While they're stretched out place the screwdriver or what have you across the back of the neck and press down. Pull the tail towards you until the neck snaps and the body appears more elongated and goes limp. Sounds cruel but not nearly as bad as cooking them alive with a heat lamp. I can do this method in an instant.
Reach in sliding the lid to one side, select one and pull it out. Slide lid back while holding it's tail. Let it grip the screen lid while holding the tail. Brace the back of the neck and pull the tail, that's it. Over! Once you get it down, 10 seconds would be more than enough to perform this task.

 

[Red Earth Exotics]

i have done that method with mice before. the only problem i have found is about half the time the tail rips when i pull it.

 

[Beasty]

Once you have it's neck held down you can get a better grip closer to the base of the tail. This should prevent the skin from ripping off. Also a slow, even pull instead of a fast jerk works best.

 

[ashesc212]

wow - that was graphic ... (I guess I'm too much of a softy)

Anyway - I just wanted to comment that usually before they are frozen they are gassed so it is not inhumane. They are not freezing them to death. If I had to choose a way to die out of all the choices above, I would most certainly pick that!

I agree that the loss in nutritional value would be negligible if frozen.

 

[alewis0890]

well let me re word the thread on why i wanted the proof of nutrition loss.. i want to freeze the right sized asf's for my monitor and tegu so i have supply i guess is what im saying, but i would need to find something to make up for the nutrition loss if there is any... Thats why i feed P/K but i wanna make sure that they dont grow to big, i think that P/K is healthier but i want to make sure i have exrta right sized feeders... sorry if that made no sense, i just woke up...

 

[Beasty]

Sorry I guess we got off subject there. I don't know of any loss. I use Nekton-Rep with my animals primarily. It's good stuff, look it up. Other than that feed your feeders well and know what you're buying otherwise. But I'm unsure on the whole "nutritional loss from freezing" bit. I do know it changes the molecules slightly to where you can look at thawed tissue vs. fresh under a microscope and tell a difference. That's about it. Google research on it if there's a study I'm sure you'll find it.

 

[alewis0890]

nah not off topic, were still in the same region I'm just not to good at wording and all... i found alot of place saying yes there is nutrition loss through freezing, but not evidence of the loss and most of it is probably here say from forum to forum... well anyway thanks guys