Post hibernation shakes

[Skeetzy]

So my little guy(and boy do I mean little) has been up out of hibernation almost a week now. I've gotten him to eat 2 pinkies covered in egg yolk(out of an offered 6), and he's now taking some bites out of some whole ground rabbit from hare-today. I supplemented the meat with 1 tablespoon of cod liver oil and 1 of calcium powder(no d3) per pound of meat. I believe his diet should be good. I plan on offering pinkies two or three a week, along with daily offering of whatever ground meat I grab, and a variety of fruits.

He's around 8 or 9 months old, and spent the last 7 hibernating. He has bit of a shake to him. My guess is calcium deficiency, since he went under so small. How long till the shakes should become a real concern? He's basking a lot, has a large basking area ranging from 100-120. Spends time in every spot. His basking spot has a 3' reptisun 10.0 running along the back wall. Humidity is little on the high side. Zoomed hygrotherm keeps the relative humidity at a solid 70%, ranging from 60-70 hot side, 75-90 cool. Can't get him into a bath yet, since he doesn't want me near him yet.

Basically just want to know when I should start worrying about him shaking? I have some liquid calcium glubionate I keep handy for my bearded, should I maybe add some to his food too? Anything I should change/do to help him out?

 

[laurarfl]

Sometimes they are just shaky when waking up. I would offer the calcium glubionate, too, but just one time. That's what I did with my little guy when he woke up, too. Diet sounds good. Is the UVB close enough to him? Everything sounds good. It could be that his skin is stiff, too???

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is it a whole body unsteady shake or fine tremors? Fine tremors are calcium related...large scale shakiness or unsteadiness I think would be more related to waking up from spending much of your little life asleep.

 

[Roadkill]

This is something I have to admit I'd really like to look into. Considering that during hibernation, they haven't been exposed to Vitamin D3, so some might think this has something to do with the shaking. However, if we also consider that during hibernation, they haven't been digesting much of anything, they really haven't been active, they haven't passed much in the way of body wastes - why would they have a calcium deficiency post-hibernation when they should have about as much calcium as when they entered hibernation? There is some evidence mounting, however, that during hibernation tegus are not typically utilizing fat stores as their energy substrate as most people assume, and instead are actually using protein as their energy substrate. Some would ask why would tegus do this, fat is a far more energy dense substrate and a much cleaner "burning" fuel. Think about what tegus do almost immediately after hibernation: breed. Tegus lay macrolecithal eggs, which is basically a fancy way of saying eggs with a very large yolk reservoir. Yolk is predominantly fat. That fat has to come from the mother. Therefore, the mother at least wants to retain her fat stores in order to maximize her egg production. And anyone that breeds tegus I'm sure can attest to how a female shortly before producing eggs looks plump not just around the belly but in the limbs and tail, but right after egg-laying appears emaciated, including the legs and tail - because the fat stores have been mobilized to be incorporated in the eggs. So what about the males, they don't have to produce eggs. Males, however, are typically involved in courtship, consexual combat, and mating - all high energy demand activities. Hence where having the fat reserves would help.
During hibernation, tegus suppress their metabolism, meaning it takes far less energy to keep their body running than it would otherwise. Plus, they are at a cooler temperature, which further reduces their metabolic demands. So at this time, they don't have a high energy demand at all and therefore really don't need much fuel for their needs. Theoretically, protein metabolism should be able to meet these needs, however such energy substrate usage comes at a cost. Burning proteins is not exactly "clean" and to do this ketone bodies are produced. Ketone is acidic, and so this acidifies the body. This theoretically has 2 effects pertaining to what we are possibly seeing with the post-hibernation shaking. First, the most likely source of protein that tegus would be using in such metabolism is muscles. So they're possibly sacrificing their muscles as an energy substrate (and as far as post-hibernation needs go, it is easier to replace lost protein [energy poor] than it is to replace lost fat [energy dense]) and this really shouldn't need much explanation as to how this could result in uncoordinated muscle activity. Second, is the acidification that would result from ketosis. Physiologically, organisms do not perform well when their fluids acidify, in fact they tend to die quickly. So when blood plasma decreases in pH, vertebrates typically release certain hormones that are responsible for releasing sequestered buffering agents to try to maintain blood pH at homeostatic levels. Those hormones, and the responses they induce, are basically the same ones as what we see released and result in Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathyroid Syndrome - or what most people somewhat erroneously think of as MBD. Calcium and phosphorus in the bones get released to buffer the blood (or supply needs elsewhere), resulting in what we often see as muscle tremors in the limbs.

 

[laurarfl]

So ketoacidosis could also result in the swelling that is also seen post-hibernation in little ones? I would think that would come from renal stress accompanied by the nitrogenous wastes from the protein metabolism.

 

[Roadkill]

Yes, this is a possibility. However, I also stress that what I outlined is also "just a possibility". While it is true that during hibernation the metabolism is suppressed, and with colder temperatures the metabolism further drops, this would also mean that it would require even less fat to support the metabolic demands than it would require protein. Is fat deemed that much more crucial for reproductive needs over basic metabolic demands? None of this has been well investigated.

 

[dragonmetalhead]

It's reading posts like this that makes me super-thankful Kodo doesn't hibernate. Sounds like it's a very stressful ordeal, for pets and pet-parents alike.

 

[Skeetzy]

No stress yet! Only if it continues hahah.

It seems to be mostly in his limbs, but his whole body at the same time. His legs are wobbly when he's not at a full speed walk. Mostly during basking when he's stretching out his limbs. I'll film it tomorrow when I have a chance and post it. He doesn't seem to be any skinnier than when he went under, so that's a good sign. I'll add some of the liquid calcium to his water dish on my day off to monitor if he drinks any.

His UVB is 16-20" from his basking spot. That's measuring from the surface of the bulb to the surface of the spot. The reptisun advertises an effective distance of up to 20", and he can get as close as about 10". I do see him lay a little out of the way of the hot spot and closer to the UVB. So I do believe he's getting proper exposure to it. But I can move his basking spot back a few inches closer to the UVB if necessary. Just a few screws and dirt digging.

Roadkill, if there's anything I can document for you to help you out, I'll be more than willing. I always look forward to your posts and would love to be able to help you in return. I envy your knowledge lol. I wish he was tolerable of my handling to weigh him on my scale to track his weight, but that's not possible at this time.

Oh yeah, should I be trying to get him into a bath? He has access two water dishes, both capable of full body soaks. I have witnessed him drink once, right when he woke up. Drank for awhile. But that's it. I do believe his humidity is high enough for shedding. It's just I can't pick him up yet. He doesn't run when we're near the enclosure, or when I go in. Only if I get too close, and even then he just walks away. The enclosure is a foot from my bed, so he sees me a majority of the time. I anticipate handling him will be possible soon because of how he's acting now.

 

[Dubya]

@Roadkill: Do you think it is better to not hibernate a tegu? My vet who is a specialist in reptiles feels it is not necessary and could sometimes be harmful. When fall came, I felt that my tegu did not get have enough bulk to hibernate, so I kept him awake.

 

[Roadkill]

Dubya, I'm kind of a fence sitter on that. I can see pro's and con's either way. Hibernation re-aligns the circannual biorhythms of the animals, which is fundamental in cycling the hormones particularly for breeding. This being said, it's clear some populations don't need this. There's the idea that hibernation also helps prolong the lifespan. However, if not properly prepared for hibernation, they can indeed die.

 

[laurarfl]

Skeetzy, I hope your little guy is doing well. I've been handling mine and he is skittish, but hanging in there. I feel like I'm going through it all with you, lol.

 

[Roadkill]

Skeetzy, it can take some time. Back in October one of my old labs surrendered their research tegus to me, and when I got them they were pretty much already hibernating and so that's how I left them. I decided to bring them out in February because I was certain one female was probably plugged up and didn't want to risk it getting necrotic in her intestines. Sure enough she was and I had to get her flushed out. Nevertheless, she has definitely exhibited the wobbles and uncoordination commonplace post-hibernation (they all have) and I'd say they all still show it to some degree (but quite pronounced in her) and this is now at least a month, month and a half later.

Definitely go with the liquid calcium, it is more readily absorbed than powdered. If you're concerned about your UVB output, see if you can get your hands on a UVB meter. To increase the UVB intensity directed to your tegu, you might want to consider getting your hands on an appropriate surface reflector (these often seem ridiculously expensive, but when you consider they effectively almost double the UVB going to your reptiles, I think they're worth it). The other thing to consider is they might be a little low on electrolytes post-hibernation. Dilute pedialyte or Gatorade will work just as well as the expensive drops sold at the pet stores for this.

 

[Skeetzy]

Awesome Roadkill! Money is just an object, if it means better well being for my animals than so be it. I'm going to move the spot back a few inches, so it's about 10" from the bulb. That should be more than efficient. I'll look into a reflector, completely forgot they made those.

Tomorrow I'll make up a gatorade/calcium water mixture for him to give him every now and then. I appreciate all the info. I follow the statement hope for the best but prepare for the worst. So now I can be a little less concerned and know it can go on for a little.

Laura, I'm glad I'm not alone! It's such an awesome experience. It was over a year since I first put money down on my varnyard tegu until this little guy woke up. And I am one of the least patient people in the world.

 

[Dubya]

Dubya, I'm kind of a fence sitter on that. I can see pro's and con's either way. Hibernation re-aligns the circannual biorhythms of the animals, which is fundamental in cycling the hormones particularly for breeding. This being said, it's clear some populations don't need this. There's the idea that hibernation also helps prolong the lifespan. However, if not properly prepared for hibernation, they can indeed die.

I am on the fence about it too. I have till fall to stop my procrastination on this issue.