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Added D3 has been proven to cause impactions.
- Thread starter VARNYARD
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Well, Bobby, I do have to agree you do have some very valid points. I wholeheartedly agree that most of the "reptile" supplements available for sale in petstores have absolutely lousy quality control and their claims are dubious at best. Reptile sprays, for one, are a complete joke. Most reptile skin has an exaggeratedly thick stratum corneum that inhibits any molecular substance passing through it. Proper vitamins for animals aren't cheap (or for humans, for that matter). Go to a veterinarian and see what they sell their vitamins for, compare it to the petshops. There's a reason for the price difference, and it isn't because the vet is trying to get rich on overinflated priced vitamins. It's because those vitamins ARE coming from sources where quality is controlled and contents are guaranteed.
That being said, a lot of your arguments that you have presented, Bobby, are contradictory and this is a big reason why what you are saying is hard to swallow.
and yet earlier one of your posts had
a bit of a discrepancy, no?
You've often touted the completely safe benefits of UV bulbs throughout this discussion and others, and yet one of the sources you copied stated
But perhaps the best case of contradictory arguments are THIS current posting, and THIS posting
http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1835
both of which you started on the exact same day. Do you think about your posts before you actually put them up? Here you are saying "no, do not use Vitamin D supplementation, especially as we don't know what amount an overdose is in a tegu" and then you go on in the other post to say "yes, this is a great supplement because it has Vit.D at greater concentrations than most other available sources!"
I'll back you up on the "most pet store vitamins are crap" account, but not on the "don't use vit.D at all" argument. As I've stated, vit.D is essential for your animal's health, whether it is naturally derived or supplemented. You DON'T want to overdose it, but if you have an indoor animal, are not sure of its UV exposure, then some Vit.D3 supplementation would be advised. Also in agreement with what you have to say, nothing beats a good, balanced diet and proper UV exposure. Outdoor tegus have so many more benefits available to them than indoor kept tegus, and if properly fed, supplementation is likely risky.
However, a few other points:
That being said, a lot of your arguments that you have presented, Bobby, are contradictory and this is a big reason why what you are saying is hard to swallow.
and yet earlier one of your posts had
a bit of a discrepancy, no?
You've often touted the completely safe benefits of UV bulbs throughout this discussion and others, and yet one of the sources you copied stated
But perhaps the best case of contradictory arguments are THIS current posting, and THIS posting
http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1835
both of which you started on the exact same day. Do you think about your posts before you actually put them up? Here you are saying "no, do not use Vitamin D supplementation, especially as we don't know what amount an overdose is in a tegu" and then you go on in the other post to say "yes, this is a great supplement because it has Vit.D at greater concentrations than most other available sources!"
I'll back you up on the "most pet store vitamins are crap" account, but not on the "don't use vit.D at all" argument. As I've stated, vit.D is essential for your animal's health, whether it is naturally derived or supplemented. You DON'T want to overdose it, but if you have an indoor animal, are not sure of its UV exposure, then some Vit.D3 supplementation would be advised. Also in agreement with what you have to say, nothing beats a good, balanced diet and proper UV exposure. Outdoor tegus have so many more benefits available to them than indoor kept tegus, and if properly fed, supplementation is likely risky.
However, a few other points:
First off, I'm assuming you've completely forgotten about the diurnal geckos. Secondly, even most nocturnal geckos HAVE been shown to bask. It's been shown several times that assuming nocturnal species don't bask is erroneous. Thirdly, it has also been shown in many reptiles that although they may not bask in direct sunlight, that even when living under the canopy of dense foliage, enough UVB gets scattered to reach and impact the health of particularly delicate skinned reptiles such as geckos.
Agreed, 100%. That goes, in my opinion, for overly strong UV bulbs as well. Folks, do yourself a favour and buy good vitamins from your veterinarian. Also make sure your tegu gets good UVB exposure (caveat: good does NOT mean excessive) and a varied, balanced diet.
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(cholecalciferol) is derived from sheep's wool, this is what is in the supplements, and the Calcium is derived from crushed oyster shell.
What I said was to use is Cod liver oil, this is 100% natural and easy to digest. Additionally, the vitamin D found in cod liver oil and butterfat from pasture-raised animals protects against vitamin A toxicity, and allows them to consume a much higher amount of vitamin A before it becomes toxic.(1-3) Liver from land mammals is high in vitamin A but low in vitamin D, and should therefore be consumed with other vitamin D-rich foods as one being cod liver oil. This is why we feed beef liver and cod liver oil, it is much better than any of the cheap made but high priced supplements found in the reptile market.
So Colin do your homework a bit better, my thoughts are backed by documented proof.
As in leopard geckos, you can back it up with proof that they bask? I mean I am no expert on them, but they are desert dwellers and are not known to come out during daylight hours and are also not known to bask at all.
As for three of my so-called quotes in your post, they were not my words but rather someone elseÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¾Ã?â??Ã?¢s that is why I put them in quotes in my post. So please do not put them in your post like I said them in youÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¾Ã?â??Ã?¢re quotes, I never even said I agree with every thing they said. If you are looking to argue, then beware; make sure you state that they are in fact my words before quoting them as if they were.
What I said was to use is Cod liver oil, this is 100% natural and easy to digest. Additionally, the vitamin D found in cod liver oil and butterfat from pasture-raised animals protects against vitamin A toxicity, and allows them to consume a much higher amount of vitamin A before it becomes toxic.(1-3) Liver from land mammals is high in vitamin A but low in vitamin D, and should therefore be consumed with other vitamin D-rich foods as one being cod liver oil. This is why we feed beef liver and cod liver oil, it is much better than any of the cheap made but high priced supplements found in the reptile market.
So Colin do your homework a bit better, my thoughts are backed by documented proof.
As in leopard geckos, you can back it up with proof that they bask? I mean I am no expert on them, but they are desert dwellers and are not known to come out during daylight hours and are also not known to bask at all.
As for three of my so-called quotes in your post, they were not my words but rather someone elseÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¾Ã?â??Ã?¢s that is why I put them in quotes in my post. So please do not put them in your post like I said them in youÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¾Ã?â??Ã?¢re quotes, I never even said I agree with every thing they said. If you are looking to argue, then beware; make sure you state that they are in fact my words before quoting them as if they were.
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Symptoms of a cholecalciferol overdose include irregular heartbeats, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, dry mouth, decreased appetite, constipation, weakness, headache, and a metallic taste in the mouth.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vet.cornell.edu/consultant/consult.asp?Fun=Cause_1324&spc=All&dxkw=toxic&sxkw=&signs=">http://www.vet.cornell.edu/consultant/c ... kw=&signs=</a><!-- m -->
Decreased amount of stools, absent feces, constipation.
Bobby as you know my colombian is still not well and having difficulty breathing.
prior to this happening I started using calcium/D3 when I made her food and after a while of using it is when I started noticing these problems to the point where she has a hard time swallowing food now.
prior to this happening I started using calcium/D3 when I made her food and after a while of using it is when I started noticing these problems to the point where she has a hard time swallowing food now.
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angelrose said:
I would not doubt it could cause a whole host of problems in tegus.
I have fed it, but when I found out that it came from the lanolin in sheepÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¾Ã?â??Ã?¢s wool and was chemically altered in the lab to produce the vitamin D3. And that the Calcium is made from crushed oyster shells, well that done it for me. They can keep their high dollar garbage. I will feed mine a proper diet and provide good UV lighting when they are inside.
VARNYARD said:
before I started using D3 my colombian was spunky and never a problem and now this after giving her D3 for a while. she is still having a hard time breathing. I'm scared she is not going to make it. I have been feeding with a syringe and if it's too much it will come back up. I am still feeding with a syringe and she's been holding on but still struggling to breath and keep down her food.
so I have been feeding with the syringe in small amounts throughout the day.
is this reversible ?
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You know Bob. Your Tegus get enough sunshine in the summer month's that they don't need to be supplemented even through the winter. Everyone doesn't have that luxury. I myself don't think UV lighting is all it's made out to be either.I have kept moniotrs for years with no UV lighting at all. I never had any ill effects from it either. This subject can be argued many ways and forever. LOL It takes different practices for different set ups also.Each person needs to figure out each situation needs. People in the Northern states can't do what we can in the south. That's why all the successful breeders are in the south. Plain and simple Sunlight may be the key to it all. But what are the people that can't rely on that supposed to do. Should we only sell Tegus to people who live in the south. Someone has got to be the one to find out what levels can be used. This subject is a really good subject. All sides need to be taken into consideration . When discussing it also.
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How often were you using the D3? How old is she? There are things to consider when giving extra D3. Your Tegu is showing signs of too much D3. I am afraid you may have given too much not realizing it.Most carnivores get their d3 from the animals they eat. When they are adults this is usually enough to keep them going. Young lizards on the other hand can use it. I would really like to carry the subject of How to properly give supplements to lizards . To another thread. There are right ways and wrong ways of doing it.angelrose said:
Wes, I believe I did give too much D3 now. I started giving D3 to my colombian about three times a week. I think she may be around four years of age. she was a juvie when I purchased her and has been with me for three or so yrs now.
the first year I had her she ate nothing but rodents. then she changed and started eating other meats and would turn away from any rodent. during these times I never gave her any supplements at all; just UV and she was the classic colombian. then I started reading alot of caresheets and I started with the D3. here she is about three months later panting for air most of the time. labored breathing. she does have an appetite. I have been feeding her small amounts throughout the day with a syringe. when she eats a 'meal' on her own all at once she will start sticking her tongue out and thrashing her head and some of the food will fly out of her mouth. I place her in the bath to feed her and she has been pooping alot of green stuff. she still looks healthy she has a 'little' big belly and her tail is thick still.
so the only thing I did different with her was the D3.
what is the outcome of this do you think ?
the first year I had her she ate nothing but rodents. then she changed and started eating other meats and would turn away from any rodent. during these times I never gave her any supplements at all; just UV and she was the classic colombian. then I started reading alot of caresheets and I started with the D3. here she is about three months later panting for air most of the time. labored breathing. she does have an appetite. I have been feeding her small amounts throughout the day with a syringe. when she eats a 'meal' on her own all at once she will start sticking her tongue out and thrashing her head and some of the food will fly out of her mouth. I place her in the bath to feed her and she has been pooping alot of green stuff. she still looks healthy she has a 'little' big belly and her tail is thick still.
so the only thing I did different with her was the D3.
what is the outcome of this do you think ?
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I can't say for sure. How long has she been this way?You sure she doesn't have an RI. An adult lizard doesn't need much D3. Once a week is plenty good. Sticky Tongue is the supplement I used . I used T Rex Leopard gecko dust for babies and Juvies. I used it every day with them. But I also don't use UV light. UV and D3 don't mix well. Chameleons will just puke for a day or so then they are fine. The Mercury vapaor bulbs really load them down with D3. So supplements aren't needed as much. If you use UV light you shouldn't use D3 in the supplement. D3 over dose usually doesn't cause that big a problem unless it was really over done.
I used to get chameleons from a guy that used Mercury bulbs. I would have to give them some time to get the extra D3 out of their system so I could feed them the way I wanted. If I didn't they would puke every time. I don't know if a vet can help or not. But if it has been going on for longer than a few days. Then I would say maybe something else is causing problems. It's really hard to say with out looking at the Tegu myself. If you had a Bottle of Vet RX you could use it to help with it's breathing and the RI if that is what is wrong. All reptile owners should keep it on hand. Tylan 200 is another good thing to keep on hand.
I used to get chameleons from a guy that used Mercury bulbs. I would have to give them some time to get the extra D3 out of their system so I could feed them the way I wanted. If I didn't they would puke every time. I don't know if a vet can help or not. But if it has been going on for longer than a few days. Then I would say maybe something else is causing problems. It's really hard to say with out looking at the Tegu myself. If you had a Bottle of Vet RX you could use it to help with it's breathing and the RI if that is what is wrong. All reptile owners should keep it on hand. Tylan 200 is another good thing to keep on hand.
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That sounds more like RI to me than D3 poison. I hope everything works out.
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Well surely someone must be doing clinical trials on the matter of D3 supplementation?And can I just ask Tupinambis and Bobby you guys know a hell of lot more than me about Tegus but why such heated debates why not try and work TOGETHER to figure this out I know there is nothing more interesting and informative than a good debate but why not collaborate on finding a solution on this as well as The fruit for tegus Discussion?i mean you guys have so much knowledge on the subject of these animals surely between you guy you could find a perfectly reasonable and logical fix to these problems?My own opinion would be give them everything they need such as proper temperature and humidity gradient Access to UV exposure calcium and multi-vitamin supplements proper diet access to fresh fruits and vegetables as well as healthy vertabre iand invertabre that way you have all bases covered!If your animals show any signs of over supplementation make a note of the routine of supplementations reduce dosage and watch for improvement make a note of when the animal appears to have recovered from the "overdose" Im sure that if enough people did this we start to see patterns emerging and figure out a proper diet and supplementation routine without the need of clinical trials(of course they would be needed to prove or deny our findings)How about setting up a thread bobby for everyone to post their feeding,supplementation,UV exposure and other dietary concerns and see if we notice anything????
Yeah I would get your columbian to the vet, I would say she could be sick, or have RI. Living on the eastcoast/midwest the air is different and the season change could have some kind of effect. I use to get sick a lot when I lived in Ohio so did my other pets.
