The truth behind Blue tegus.

[VARNYARD]

The Blue teguÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¾Ã?â??Ã?¢s origin is scientifically unknown, however thought to be (Tupinambis merianae) by many, including myself. This would be a different local, or subspecies of the Tupinambis merianae. It is said that they can be found in Brazil, and Colombia, however there has been photos taken of them in La Pampa, as well as French Guiana. This would be an area many miles apart and would suggest a very large range. Some of the common names for the Blues are Blue Tegu, Powder Blue Tegu, Blue Albino Tegu, Albino Tegu, and Snow Tegu.

I do not agree with albinism in reptiles that require ultraviolet lighting, in my opinion this is nothing but the creation of a very cruel morph. Albinism is well known for being less tolerant to bright lights, it is torturing these animals to keep them alive. I do not have a problem with nocturnal animals, such as geckos, and snakes with the albino traits due to them lacking the need for lighting.

The Blue tegus that are available in the pet trade are not animals that I desire as a breeder, or promote as pets. They are very inbred, due to the very small gene pool that was first imported into the United States. The original animals were said to be a very small number of six hatchlings. These were imported as Tupinambis teguixin, but were found by the importer to be unlike the normal Tupinambis teguixin they were received before. This makes these animals very prone to undesirable traits, thus the albinism, toes that do not bend, over bites and under bites, also blindness has been found to be very present in these animals. For a few years now there has been very light colored albino blue tegus sold as snow tegus. The snows do not exist in this species, but rather a very light albino. There has never been any Melanistic tegus to produce this morph, it has been found when breeding these false snows that they produce albinos, rather then snows. There have never been any other Blue tegus imported into the United States except these very few; this is something to keep in mind when choosing your animal.

 

[VARNYARD]

This was brought up on another site, I copied and pasted this here. I hope it will help answer a few questions you might have on this.

We will sure take a look at this.

A bit of info about the "snow" tegu morph. Bobby keeps insisting that a snow tegu is (or should be) a combination of the albino morph and a melanistic blue tegu.

If it is a Snow morph, than in my opinion it is fine to call them just that, however, they are albinos and not snow morphs at all.

I just wanted to clear up the fact that Ron NEVER made the claim that this was how the snow tegu was created.

I think matters little how they were Ã?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?ââ?¬Â¦Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?â??claimedÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?ââ?¬Å¡

 

[ApriliaRufo]

Alrighty Bobby. Now let's not let this topic get out of hand, but I really appreciate you bringing this up to discuss because both you and I agree with (one) albinism in UV requiring animals being cruel, and (two) snow morphs being a sham.

So the term snow is used too often as a term to describe white animals but is also being used to name animals with different attributes.

Snow by the definition I consider correct, is an animal that is completely lacking of melanin and pattern. There are no snow tegus in my opinion. No tegu exists with no patterns or markings that can be seen as completely white. Also, these "snow" tegus that are available in the trade have red eyes. What does this mean?

From Wikipedia (Yes I understand that Wikipedia does have some mistakes but these quotes are also derived from the footnotes on the wikipedia page).

""Because organisms with albinism have skin that lacks (sufficiently or entirely) the dark pigment melanin, which helps protect the skin from ultraviolet radiation coming from the sun, they can sunburn easily from overexposure. (See human skin color for more information). Lack of melanin in the eye also results in problems with vision, related and unrelated to photosensitivity, which are discussed further below.

Most humans and many animals with albinism appear white or very pale; the multiple types of melanin pigment are responsible for brown, black, gray, and some yellow colorations. In some animals, especially albinistic birds and reptiles, ruddy and yellow hues or other colors may be present on the entire body or in patches (as is common among pigeons), due to the presence of other pigments unaffected by albinism such as porphyrins, pteridines and psittacins, as well as carotenoid pigments derived from the diet. Some animals are white or pale due to chromatophore (pigment cell) defects, do not lack melanin production, and have normal eyes; they are referred to as leucistic. The direct opposite of albinism, an unusually high level of melanin pigmentation (and sometimes absence of other types of pigment in species that have more than one), is known as melanism, and results in an appearance darker than non-melanistic specimens from the same genepool.[4] Albinism-like conditions may affect other pigments or pigment-production mechanisms in some animals (e.g. "whiteface", a lack of psittacins that can affect some parrot species.).[5] Another is common in reptiles and amphibians: axanthism, in which xanthophore metabolism, instead of synthesis of melanin, is affected, resuling in reduction or absence of red and yellow pteridine pigments.[6] Of all these conditions, only albinism and melanism affect humans.""

So a symbol of direct albinism is red eyes... Hmm... looks like a clue. So what "collectors" are looking for is possibly a leucistic Tegu. This would be a true "snow" tegu.

Leuscistic definition from Wikipedia ""A further difference between albinism and leucism is in eye colour. Due to the lack of melanin production in both the retinal pigmented epithelium (RPE) and iris, albinos typically have red eyes due to the underlying blood vessels showing through. In contrast, leucistic animals have normally coloured eyes. This is because the melanocytes of the RPE are not derived from the neural crest, instead an outpouching of the neural tube generates the optic cup which, in turn, forms the retina. As these cells are from an independent developmental origin, they are typically unaffected by the genetic cause of leucism.""

I believe that albinism is a disorder manipulated by the pet trade. Fortunately, many animals that are bred to be albino, do not require any UV light because they are nocturnal and/or need no light to survive. However albinism is starting to become popular in animals that require UV light. This is cruel and wrong. If you read the effects of albinism on the body's ability to deal with UV rays, you will see that we are simply screwing with nature.

As a person involved and interested in the exotic reptile trade, I refuse to enjoy or participate in this. Morphing animals is ok to a certain extent. Specifically breeding animals to manipulate their looks is not a crime, nor is it morally wrong to me, but manipulating an animal's ability to survive is on both accounts.

To better help understand Albinism's effects on humans, here is some information.
""Albinism is a very serious disease that could end up in death. Albinism is a recessive inherited defect in melanin, which is metabolism in which pigment is absent from skin, hair, and eyes. Albinism in hair, skin, and eyes is called oculocutaneous albinism. Humans that have oculocotaneous albinism are not able to produce melanin. These people have white, yellow, or yellow brown hair, very light ( usually blue ) eyes, and very pale skin. Their eyes may appear pink because they have very little pigment.

There are two types of OCA, type I and type II. The classification of oculocutaneous albinism depends upon the nature of the underlying genetic defect. When a mutated tyrosinase gene produces inactive, less active, or temperature-sensitive tyrosinase, its phenotype is described as tyrosinase-negative (type I-A), yellow-mutant (type I-B), or temperature-sensitive (type I-TS) OCA, respectively. Mutation of the P gene encoding the tyrosine-transporting membrane protein probably occurs in tyrosinase-positive OCA (type II).

Oculocutaneous albinism type I is an autosomal recessive disorder characterized by absence of pigment in hair, skin, and eyes, and does not vary with race or age. Severe nystagmus, photophobia, and reduced visual acuity are common features. In contrast, the lack of pigmentation does not obstruct the normal growth and development of the skin or hair."" -Quoted from <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://skin-care.health-cares.net/albinism.php">http://skin-care.health-cares.net/albinism.php</a><!-- m -->

So on to blue tegus (the primary target of albino and snow tegus), there's really no need at all for any kind of argument here. They are illegal to export from argentina, very few have found their way to the US and other countries, ergo they are simply immensly inbred. I don't own them, nor will I, but I do not hold that against owners of blue tegus.

Bobby believes that blue tegus are tupinambis marinae, I believe they are more related to teguixin, but realistically, that makes no difference. Just a difference in opinion, awaiting research by a genetecist. Blues are blues, my major issue is that since tegus are CITES listed, why are their not breeding projects in place to refresh the population? How many tegus has Bobby bred? Why isn't this an issue? If funded by the government, we could all help this issue. And in correcting the low population, we can then legally import blues here to broaden the genetics pool.

Any thoughts and opinions are welcome. Please feel free to ask questions, produce evidence, and share. Please don't post for people to shut up and they're stupid and all of that childish nonsense. Again thanks for opening the can of worms Bobby.

 

[DaveDragon]

Not again!!! :roll:

 

[ApriliaRufo]

Oh come on Dave, we're not going to start a fight here, because unlike "other" places, everyone should have respect for one another and be able to discuss this like adults. Any thoughts Dave?

 

[DaveDragon]

They are what they are and that's all what they are. A variation of "Popeye's" famous line.

We have various reptiles because they are interesting. I'm not interested in genetics. If someone wants to collect different colors or patterns there are people out there producing them. It's all a matter of preference. We've already discussed the overproduction of morphs. http://tegutalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=675

If our Blue's are inbred I'll never know unless their DNA is analyzed. We may try to breed them, or our Red and Blue.

Like you said, since a very limited number have been imported and it's illegal to import more, they have to be inbred. But you really don't know how many are purebred from the originals. If the originals were imported 8-9 years ago and our Blue's are 3 years old and the originals had to be 3 years old to breed, then ours must be only the second generation born out of the wild. That's not too far removed!

 

[ApriliaRufo]

Well said, and thank you for barnching your blue to others, that is a practice I am definitely in agreement with. In California, there are a few collectors who are willing to spend good money on something they call "The Stars and Stripes" tegu. Chacoan x Red and then crossed with a Blue.

 

[DaveDragon]

Well said, and thank you for barnching your blue to others, that is a practice I am definitely in agreement with. In California, there are a few collectors who are willing to spend good money on something they call "The Stars and Stripes" tegu. Chacoan x Red and then crossed with a Blue.

We'll see what happens in the spring. If she's willing or even able.

What do you think about my Blue's being only 2 generations out of the wild?? The reduces the claim of Blue's being massively inbred.

 

[ApriliaRufo]

Well if the originals that were collected were collected. We've all got ourselves some inbred blues but there really isn't enough information about the entire topic. That's one of the reasons I don't have any problem with people owning them, they are what they are like you said. I just personally don't have a desire to purchase one because of the chance. If it was a rehome that needed someone to take care of it, I would of course treat em like a king and try to breed them with a Chacoan from Bobby's stock to lessen the possible blow from family dipping, but no one can know for sure. It's all just opinions and observances. Morphing is not really a problem to me as long as it is an animal that won't suffer consequences from the morph. We sit here and complain about morphing, when if it wasn't for so-called morphing, we'd all have Canis Lupis in our back yards, granted that's what I really want, but we'd have no variations in dogs. Morphs are sometimes breeds typically, but can go awry and cause health problems.

All that is important to me is animal health, safety, and semi-happiness. Of course all of our reptiles would be happier in the wild but I believe that as owners of animals, it is our duty to give them the best life they can have. So no, I will not pay money and contribute to the breeding of a POSSIBLY inbred line of animals, but I will always be there for the animals that need help. That's our duty as exotic pet owners. The fact simply remains that while so many animals are bred for sale, so many go homeless. The good news is that there are people like Bobby who breed a nice controlled number for quality for what I would call "high-end clientel". I have no doubt that any animal purchased from Bobby goes to a happy, safe, and quality home. I respect and treasure all animals and think they all deserve a chance.

I find myself more and more interested in the well being of animals and I really don't mean to sound angry or disappointed or anything malificent. I'm so proud of this community because of its undying desire to better the life of their tegu or as most of us tegus plural. I want to personally thank you all. Just being a part of <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tegutalk.com">www.tegutalk.com</a><!-- w --> makes you a person who is so interested in keeping their animal healthy and happy, that they dedicate time to research, theorize, and ask questions for their pet. How awesome is that? Think about it. The majority of people who own dogs, aren't out there on dog forums looking up specific care for it. We are. We are tegutalk and we really care. It touches me deep guys. You are all amazing.

 

[VARNYARD]

I think this thread needs to be bumped; there are many excuses why it is fine to breed Albinos. However, none of them get past the fact that Albinos and bright UV lights do not mix. In my opinion it is a ploy for the money with no regard for the health and well being of the animals. Can you say that these people really care for the animals, or are they all about the money? Seems to me like the torture of the animals is worth the extra dough to some, and yet more proof they have no morals. One of them claim to have a (PhD), however he is either not smart enough to see the truth, or he would rather ignore the facts. Either way, the fact remains they are Albinos, and do require UV, and it does not take a rocket scientist to figure that out. It is as easy as adding 2+2, well unless they choose to be blind, as are many albino tegus in the pet trade are due to excessive inbreeding, as well as the exposure to the UV they must have to survive.

In the end, the bottom line is these animals are very sensitive to the bright lights that keep them alive, and must be tortured to live. In my opinion these animals should not be bred, and breeders of such animals should not be supported so they can breed more.

As for claims that there was more than six Blues imported into the US, that is yet another ploy for the cash. I know how many there were, and the number is six; do not listen to false claims of there being more siblings than what there were. It is just a ploy to make it seem like there is a larger gene pool to slide past the facts to collect the money and hide the truth. There were also false rumors floating around that they might have set traps all through the jungle to catch these animals. However, this is not how they are collected, the one spreading this lie knows this. They raid nests, much like they do here in the US when collecting gator eggs. They finish the incubation and sell the hatchlings, this make all of the original six siblings (brothers and sisters) they were inbred from the first breeding until now.

I am sorry for this long drawn out post, but I am real sick of the lies and rumors. Please do not be taken in, if I thought or believed this I would be breeding Blue tegus, however it simply is not true. I will also say I love my animals and do not lie to collect the money, I am not going to breed them due to my higher morals, it just is not fair to the animals, regardless of how much cash is able to be collected on them.

 

[joshandjack]

i agree with you bobby, which is why i am not going to breed my blue, unless if hybridization occurs, but ...
Apriliarufo you brought up the stars and stripes tegus or whatever, was that a joke, or has anyone actually created a triple hybrid yet? if its reall, where could i find pics?

 

[tegulevi]

i'll still be breeding mine.

although mine have a little forein boold in them. my female has a tad bit of red blood from one of her parents i suspect being a cross.
and my male is 48" so hes got something in thee giving him that size lol

 

[ApriliaRufo]

i agree with you bobby, which is why i am not going to breed my blue, unless if hybridization occurs, but ...
Apriliarufo you brought up the stars and stripes tegus or whatever, was that a joke, or has anyone actually created a triple hybrid yet? if its reall, where could i find pics?

No it hasn't happened yet. I'd love to see it happen, but the real issue is that I brought up the idea in a few places, and no one has done it. Not to sound retarded, but I "invented" the idea, and now I've seen only one person who said he did it, but it was not a true chocoan, I saw the pictures of the 3 parent mixes, the bluexred was legit, but the trick is the peach tint and gigantic size of the Chacoans has to be proved. He had no paper work, and the tegu was very small for it's age and the father was a black and white. So I guess it has been done in the sense of a triple hybrid, but not my Stars and Stripes Tegu.

As for the main issue, blues if they were not imported as siblings wouldn't be too badly inbred at all, and if the possibility of more being snuck in is possible, but I agree with Bobby about it being 6. Anyone claiming that Ron brought in more is simply stating that because the original lines have been crossed. Inbreeding happens in the reptile world, there's no going around it, but specifically inbreeding intensely to bring out albinism in UV requiring (Lucille can kiss my ass, they need UV light, stick a human in a cave for 30 years and see what happens) reptiles is sick. I think it's just twisted. In other reptiles inbreeding is prevalent, certain lines keep outbreeding and come back to dad in the end, but a single gen is fine, hell 2 gens in fine, but albinism in an animal that needs light is just cruel. I am very against it, and although I have no issues at all with people owning Blues, if you start crossing offspring to bring albinism to surface, I definitely don't like you. But of course there are exceptions like Jane who adopt an abandoned albino and do your best. Thank you.

 

[VARNYARD]

I do not care if someone wants to breed the Blues, I will not myself, but I think to down play it into a lie is just wrong. To make out like they are not as inbred, or to try to sell them to someone without telling them the truth is just wrong in my opinion. I will also say, through these actions shows they are all about the money and not the animals or the truth.

Oh and Ron never imporded them, they were imported through a a whole seller.

As the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

 

[joshandjack]

hey apriliarufo im surpised no one has realy had triple hybrids yet i have potential in two or three years with my b and w/red tegu, and my blue.

 

[VARNYARD]

Thanks for sharing that Colin, and for the most part I agree 100%. In the pet trade there are two types of the Argentine tegus, the Tupinambis merianae and the Tupinambis rufescens. However I do think tegus from different areas of South America can carry different looks and traits and can be quite different than others found in different locals.

Look at the tegu in this video, it has the markings said to be in the Blues, the teardrop and dark nose, however it is clearly an Argentine black and white:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=A08URe_1CSQ&feature=related">http://youtube.com/watch?v=A08URe_1CSQ&feature=related</a><!-- m -->

 

[tupinambis]

Absolutely that is certainly true. Take your Chacoan giants, for instance. I am not debating at all that there are populations naturally occuring that predominantly display the phenotype you are calling "Chacoan giant". Unfortunately, there is currently nothing to back up the claim that A)all T.merianae coming from the Chacoa region display those characteristics, or inversely B) all tegus with those characteristics are strictly from the Chacoan region. The origin of your stock could likewise be questioned, and I'm willing to bet you couldn't 100% guarantee that your animals are specifically from natural Chacoan populations.

However, I will also state that there is likely good possibility that what is currently recognized as T. merianae can with further investigation be classified into several species. Blues might be a new, undescribed species, as may your Chacoan giants. But until genetic analysis is done, people insisting blues are their own species based on little more than inconsistent colour characteristics (I don't know how many non-blue tegus I've seen, had and worked with - clearly in the hundreds- that had/have the dark nose, same with the teardrop), well, to bring back a similar analogy, is like insisting the model of vehicle you drive is based on its colour.

Right now, all these names, Chacoan, blue...heck even the ridiculous monicker Argentine black & white, all are nothing more than inventions of the hobbyist trade with no documentation backing up the claim. Why do people adhere and insist on "Argentine black & white" when Argentina is only a small part of its geographic distribution and they aren't all strictly black & white? T.merianae are pretty much distributed throughout all of the South American continent east of the Andes. Most of that land is "Brazil", not "Argentina". My committee would consider me an idiot and likely disregard my thesis if I made the claim I researched "Argentine black&white tegus" when the animals I worked on were not from there. And yet I've seen others get up in arms when someone described theirs as Peruvian or Paraguyan and could provide as much documentation to back up their claim as you probably can for Chacoan. These are all just names being thrown around with little to back them up.

Frankly, let the hobbyists create the names they want, but they should drop the geographic reference if they don't have the documentation to back it up. For example, I have no problem with you calling your line "giants". They certainly are. Chacoan I question. Chacoan is a description the hobbyist trade has grabbed onto that in many instances only mean "you want, you will need to pay more for". Chacoan red footed tortoises, Chacoan pac man frogs, Chacoan poptarts. Considering the traits of these that I've seen in other areas outside of Chacoa, it seems silly to classify them as such in the absence of a regulating body.

My tegus are Brazilian: Not only can I document I brought them from Brazil, but I can probably document all their parental lineage back to the original stock and provide the geographic origins for where those individuals were collected. IBAMA is a headache of a bureacracy, but it does have its uses. If I were to put them on the market, why would I stick to the name "Argentine black & whites"? We used to have a male that was all black, and another that was almost completely white. If I had taken those, bred them out to produce more all blacks and all whites, would it be correct/incorrect for me to market those specific lines as Sao Pauloan or Minas Gerais because that's basically the area they came from, despite the fact that those lines don't represent what may or may not (not from what I saw) commonly be encountered in those areas?

 

[VARNYARD]

This is also true with the ranges/names, however there are so many animals not just reptiles with a local in the name. Many of these do not just exsist in that local but have a much wider range, or have had a much larger range at one time.

American Alligator, Russian brown bear, Texas alligator lizard, California condor, Florida panther, and many more.

Alligator mississippiensis, but found in a few states. Russian brown bears are not just found in Russia. or California condors are only in California. Florida panters were found all over the east coast at one time. There are many more if I think on this, but this is a few that fall under the same that you speak of.

 

[tupinambis]

You're quite correct, Bobby, but you overlooked the caveat.

Considering the traits of these that I've seen in other areas outside of Chacoa, it seems silly to classify them as such in the absence of a regulating body.

All the examples of which you speak fall under the guidelines of a regulating body, ie. there is a scientific or government group that determines what the official common name is. There is no such body for reptiles of South America. The name "Argentine black & white tegu" is not adopted by anyone outside of the hobbyist arena, it is an invention of convenience only. Yet like I said, when someone else claims theirs to be Paraguyan or Peruvian, people get riled up. Those names are just as official as "Argentine" is. This is why I generally push for people to learn the scientific name, then there is NO confusion as to what species is being discussed, but that's a matter for a different diatribe.

 

[ApriliaRufo]

Finally a thread worth investigation, theories, research, and spread of information. Thanks Colin.