"Killer Aliens" on Animal Planet

[carcharios]

Tegukid,
You've got to remember something else in this situation. Those who document the who python situation down in FL fail to mention that while the large pythons seen on video are in fact a danger, they only reached maturity because they were pets and had no predators and had an ample supply of food. Had those same snakes been released to the wild when they were juveniles, chances are they would never have reached maturity - at least not on a large scale. I'd love to know the survival rate of these pythons when monitored from hatchlings to adulthood. I'd bet you'd be lucky to get 5%. Think of all the predators that would feed on the juveniles. Off the top of my head there are: skunks, raccoons, possums, owls, hawks, large fish, alligators, crocodiles (if in southern FL), egrets, herons, storks, panthers, bobcats, feral cats, foxes, eagles, etc., etc.

 

[TeguKid80]

That honestly has nothing to do with it. They aren't native, the juveniles compete with native herps for food, the adults can kill almost any native animal, but even besides that THEY DON'T BELONG THERE. No one wants to leave them there, simply because they compete with local animals and breed like rabbits... Burms have lots of babies and lots of babies eat lots of food.

 

[carcharios]

Tegukid,
That has everything to do with it. You can't assume that every juvenile python is going to reach adulthood and suddenly overtake the ecosystem. That's totally naive. And even though they compete with native herps in Florida, they're still being picked off by predators. And many of those native herps are going to feed on them too. You can't tell me that an alligator snapper or alligator is not going to take down a juvenile to sub-adult python.

As for your argument that "they don't belong there", guess what - either do we. Either do the cichlids that inhabit the intracoastal waterways. Either do the Tokay Geckos that I used to hear barking in Ft. Lauderdale. Either do the Cuban anoles or the feral parrots or the myriad of exotic plants that exist in Florida. Give up on it. Florida is a melting pot of exotics at this point. The only reasonable solution is to let nature play itself out. Intervening just wastes tax dollars and usually ends up not solving the problem anyway - in fact, intervening often makes the problem worse.

 

[TeguKid80]

Give it up they're non native. Invasive. I never ASS-umed that they would all reach adulthood. They clearly don't. The ones that do make impressive predators and can kill almost any animal living in the glades. I know all the hippies out there are against killing off invasive species, but what would you do if we had tigers invade the U.S. replacing the native mountain lions and black panthers? Would you say oh just let nature run its course? I sure as hell hope not.

 

[carcharios]

Tegukid,
We used to have lions here - bigger than the African lion. We had cheetahs too. We had saber-toothed cats. We had mammoths. And it wasn't that long ago that these creatures roamed this continent. You need to understand that what we see today is NOT a natural state. Not by any means. So yeah, if a tiger escaped here, so be it. A few tigers would not wipe out the cougar population. Its more likely humans would wipe them out before tigers did. Between hunters and cars, I don't think a tiger would stand much of a chance in the wild here.

You do know that more humans are killed by deer each year than cougars, right? And of course, this is because the deer no longer have natural predators so they've overpopulated and contribute to car accidents. I think you need to reconsider the problem. You seem so overwhelmed with these "exotic" species that you're missing the forest from the trees.

 

[TeguKid80]

Yawn.. You're completely missing my point. BURMS ARE NOT NATIVE. THERE IS NO BETTER SOLUTION THAN HUMANELY KILLING THOSE LOOSE IN THE EVERGLADES. Period. The end. Nothing else.

 

[carcharios]

Half the animals in Florida are not native. Hell, the oysters we eat from the Pacific are not native. Should we kill them too? Striped bass in CA are not native. They were imported in the early 1900's from NJ. Should we wipe them out too.

Look, you obviously either have made up your mind and don't want to hear any other arguments or you're trolling this forum to get a rise out of people. Either way, you're beyond capable of comprehending other points of view. Your answer to everything is: if it's not native, we need to kill it. You do realize that this logic applies to you, right.

 

[TeguKid80]

You don't seem to understand it. Why would we ever leave giant pythons in FLORIDA???? It is different from a fish or an oyster. I did not say everything nonnative should die.

 

[ashesc212]

Look, you obviously either have made up your mind and don't want to hear any other arguments or you're trolling this forum to get a rise out of people. Either way, you're beyond capable of comprehending other points of view. Your answer to everything is: if it's not native, we need to kill it. You do realize that this logic applies to you, right.

I've noticed this behavior on many of the threads that he posts on. It's not worth it to argue with someone who acts like they are 15...

 

[TeguKid80]

Not really... I just want to know what is wrong with humanely killing animals that are were unfortunately placed in a bad position by our hobby. We can blame it on ourselves, as we should but in the end it has to be fixed. If there was a better solution that the government would even consider I would be completely in favor of it trust me.

 

[Beazer]

I would actually be interesting to see how many actual python clutches have been discovered? What the odds are of an adult pair breeding and the young surviving, etc. They say they are wild populations breeding, however, are they absolutely sure these animals arent just released pets? If you really take a step back and see the predators out there, how many burmese get hit by cars, and death of "natural" causes then I am sure you might find the likelihood of this non-native species over populating slim? Please do provide information that shows they are consistantly (not just 2 clutches ever found) breeding in the wild away from human population.

Carcharios, about the cheetah stuff. Its actually crazy cause people fail to look at the N. American antelope. We get them here in AZ (unfortunately the lower desert species is on the edge of extinction). Why do north american antelope look so much like african antelope and are teh fastest land mammal in north america? Well, it definitely aint cause of coyotes, bears, or mountain lion (Ive actually seen Bucks take on coyotes and scare them off). Its because they evolved next to cheetahs. I love that you brought that up, very interesting.

Back to the non-native, invasive species. Euthanize them? I dont think so. Give them to zoos? Its hard to say (because zoos already have too much on their hands). Euthanize them? Depends, are they going to be eaten? Is the body going to be waisted? It really is a shame we cant kill humans (numbero uno of world destruction and invasive species).

I would probably say do a free adoption program (screening of course) to see if the animals can be adopted out first and a legal contract that somehow the owner can be fined if the animal escapes, if they breed it, sell it, any reason they dont have teh snake unless its death and the body would have to be frozen or proof of death. Its hard to say to put a restriction on the problem species of snake in Florida due to how the government could gain momentum. But the adoption thing sounds like it may just be a good idea. If the animal cant find a home within a certain month, then either a no kill shelter will take it, or then perhaps they may consider euthanization (but never letting the body go to waist).

And please, define how you humanely kill something? lol. Its like, if a person was suffering and I euthanized them (even with their consent), I would be charged for crimes against a human, which would be inhumane because I killed something (a human). Even though I "humanely" put a $.30 bullet in their head and ended their life of pain in a split second. I believe that would be assisted suicide?

They dont let ranchers put down their dying dogs by taking them out on a walk in a field with no fear and killing them instantly. Thats animal abuse. However if somebody cant afford the best health care for their animal and it "needs" to be put down, it goes to a place, stressed out, lost, alone, scared beyond belief, and pricked with needles in a small cage and injected with fluids (that probably hurt for a few seconds before death. Yet somehow THATS more humane? The term humane definitely needs to be redifined.

Also, tegukid, I dont think you know enough to even comment on the subject. I dont think you are as educated as you think on reptiles/topics and just kinda like to look "over the top" or beg to differ. Though, it is life and you are allowed to voice your opinion. Just make sure its an educated one (and really take a step back to see how educated you are on the matter).

-Jon DeLong

 

[TeguKid80]

Beazer, if you have ever frequented Field Herp Forum there was a post a while back where a few guys in Florida found a mating ball of 5 Burmese Pythons, with the female being 16-17 feet long. Humanely killing the animal would be killing it instantly in some fashion, not torturing it or hurting it before death. I do like your idea of adoption first, and that could definitely help solve the problem. I would not kill a snake in almost all cases. I never have killed a snake. However, there are certain cases where the animal needs to be put down. When a snake is born with severe kinks in it's back and cannot digest food what do people do? They kill them. When a snake has IBD what do people do? They kill the snake. Not really trying to argue with you here. Just food for thought. People in the herp world who breed snakes relatively frequently put snakes down for various reasons such as the ones listed above. I have mixed feelings on the python issue. I think that there might be a better solution for the pythons, but so far they are not being horribly mistreated. I do find the open hunting season on pythons absolutely ridiculous because of the abundance of animal killing rednecks who must enjoy such a sport. This would bring out a whole bunch of people who enjoy the hurting of animals and that is not right for the pythons.

 

[the enigma]

Alrighty tegu kid


You're not making much sense bud. Your comparing pythons in florida to captive ones that have diseases. If you're going to keep swinging at least take a few minutes and think up a good argument PLEEEEASE

 

[Beazer]

IBD is most definitely different. That is a disease that affects boids. And yes they should be put down for the simple fact that any python or boa that comes into contact with waist or even external parasites of a python/boa that has it will more than likely get the disease and it spreads like wildfire. Boas can carry it and live a quality life and spread it all over, yet pythons will die within 1-4 months, even up to 8 months I believe, after contracting it. Its a slow painful death. That is far different than the circumstances of a loose pet. I guess I got off topic when I was discussing the whole putting down sick animals, but thats what I was referring as "humane" and then I got a little deeper in it when started going on about how its inhumane to do other things but labeled as humane.

But yeah, I think this topic is a dead horse now lol. However, theres other cool things to discuss and if yall are ever bored, go and hit up the tegutalk chatroom. Just please use your usernames. We have problems with a certain person so anybody whos on the forums needs to use their actual name on here.


-Jon DeLong

 

[Blue Crab of PAIN!!!]

I'm surprised no one else noticed how the CITES officer intercepted a Gold Tegu and said "This is a type of Monitor" (which then proceeded to go into a montage of monster Nile and Black Throat Monitors).

 

[herper9]

I love beating a dead horse;-) There have been reports recently that the last winter in Florida possibly killed a bunch of burms. It is interesting to note the idea of just let them be and let nature sort them out. I completely agree with this sentiment in this instance. There are jaguars coming out of Mexico into AZ, invasive species or natural occurence? I understand the reasoning we brought them here we should take care of the situation. Does anyone here like honey? 100% purely introduced. The European Honey Bee took out a lot of native bees. What would happen to the ecosystem if all of a sudden these bees were taken out of the equation? Mayhem. Mother Nature has a way of making things work out. I am sure as many adult alligators take out adult burms as adult burms take out alligators. We just never see it because that would go against the agenda of the HSUS and PETA. When wolves were taken out of Yellowstone humans kept good control of the elk until the 60s/70s. When the Winter Hunts were stopped by the Federal Government. What happened to the Elk population? It exploded, destroying a lot of the aspen groves turning the park into something it wasn't supposed to be. Just an example of when the government gets involved what can happen. Just look at the shoddy research done by the USGS to determine the possible migration of the Burmese Python. The government is a horrible thing to turn to when it comes to anything, (the military besides). And just so some on here don't think I am some animal rights activist I am an avid outdoorsman. I hunt, fish and trap here in the great state of Idaho. But as Beazer was saying you just don't ever waste the meat.

 

[Beazer]

Jaguars are native to Arizona. The public just doesnt know much about the one's that visit here because most were wiped out by poachers. Their numbers have dropped dramatically, though cubs have been spotted. Its a good sign in a way. The border fence is going to cause some issues with jaguars and possibly will probably lead to the biological(?) extinction of Sonoran Antelope in AZ if they dont get good enough genetic flow. I'm from here born and raised. Jaguars have always been recognized as a native species. It wasnt until recently that I found out their numbers had been declining majorly do to agriculture, poachers, and most of all ignorance. They are THE MOST elusive creature in Arizona. Southern AZ has some really harsh terrain and lots of hiding spots and perfect habitat for them. I hope one day to spot one but they are only caught by trip cameras during the night.

-Jon DeLong

 

[Beazer]

And one more thing lol. Proghorn Antelope here went through similar stuff. Caused by man as well. They hunted the antelope to near extinction, until hunting was banned. Though, they allowed hunting of all predators and wiped out all the predators in the area. Antelope population exploded, eating themselves to teh ground, literally. Then the population dropped due to massive starvation. They then put a ban for a while on predator hunting, allowed a season on antelope, and then evened it out with seasonal/regulated hunts and draws. Man kind is the biggest "Oops" on earth and always seems to solve the problems with killing :/. They need a human hunting season, like that book about the island lol. Im sure lots of people would sign up for it.

-Jon DeLong