# Housing turtles with caiman lizard?



## Tyguy35 (Feb 29, 2016)

Hello, I am just curious to whether or not this is a bad or ok idea. I am in the midst of building a massive enclosure with a huge water hole and land portion. The idea is to remake there environment. I would like it if I could add some turtles from the area they come from but have read nothing over the Internet on if it's a bad idea or not. Mixing species is usually a bad idea but I would still like thoughts on this. 

Thank you


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## Roadkill (Mar 1, 2016)

It's a bad idea on several fronts, principally disease, space, and compatibility.

Disease transmission is a key reason mixing species is frowned upon. Particularly in the scenario you're suggesting, turtles are quite filthy animals and produce a lot of waste, and that usually means serious bacteria loads such as _Salmonella._ Parasites are also a concern, not only in the typical case of what most people think of (ie. the passage of a common parasite from one generic host to another), but in the possible contamination of a parasite into an atypical host, this is where you wind up with things like worms infecting brains, eyes, and hearts where normally they just infected the guts, because they are in a novel host and get "lost".

Space is very crucial when contemplating mixed species enclosures. Yeah, everyone goes "I'm going to give a lot of space, and they cohabitate in the wild", but seem to grossly overlook that in the wild they are NOT confined to a 15 sq.ft. area where they cannot escape one another, they inhabit vastly huge areas where the actual probability of them encountering one another are actually quite low. Why is this an issue? Quite often, stress can be the result of mixed species enclosures. Some species tolerate stress better than others, but constant stress also has implications on things like appetite and immunity. Then there's often something akin to the opposite of stress - obliviousness. Quite often I've seen where one animal is so oblivious to the others that they'll constantly climb on them, trample them, and thereby inflict injury without intent.

Then there's compatibility. Most people don't seem to be aware of this, but most turtles aren't exactly compatible with others of their own kind, let alone completely different species. Aquatic turtles particularly have a habit of trying to eat everything. I don't exactly think they are aggressive, _per se_, just like an human infant that has a habit of sticking everything in its mouth, turtles just don't drool and gum things to death - they have a sharp beak with powerful jaws. And when turtles bite, they latch on for the long haul.


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## Jrock23 (Mar 1, 2016)

I agree with roadkill, However I was asked this same question with someone who wanted to house iguana with tortoises and turtles. I understand people may have great ideas put together and want to mix different animal species. I would love to do it too but we have to think of the safety of the animal.


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## Tyguy35 (Mar 1, 2016)

I completely understand and I figured this from the beginning but you have still liked to hear others opinions. I build very large enclosures for all my animals but is till understand it is nothing like the wild.


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## Walter1 (Mar 1, 2016)

High risk enterprise.


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## Bug (Mar 2, 2016)

How large of an enclosure are we talking? I agree its very risky, but you keep stressing its size and now I'm curious.


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## Roadkill (Mar 2, 2016)

Let me give you a little first hand experience, then. Years ago I was given a young crocodilian: not a baby, and an actual crocodilian as opposed to a lizard (ie. much thicker hide with dermal bone plating). I had a large enclosure with a pool that had some small turtles in it (admittedly, what I call small isn't what others would call small) and figured this would be ok as the two species are known to cohabitate in areas. So in goes the young crocodilian. What happened? The turtles set in to eat the crocodilian.

I don't speak from opinion, I speak from experience. I've kept and worked with more animals than many zoos have. I too at one time went through the phase you seem to be..."it would be sooo cool" and all that. Figured I knew enough to do community-type set ups, and yes I have had a number of successes. However, I'd have to admit that what I call failures outnumber the successes. Of the points I listed before, most overlook the one that I think is the key problem with mixed enclosures: it isn't the disease or even the compatibility. It's the size. I cannot stress the fact that you CANNOT recreate their environment, the best you can achieve is a poor simulation of it. How do I know for certain you cannot come anywhere close? Simple. In the wild, if one of the animals is encountering some aspect of its environment that is detrimentally unsuitable, it can leave to seek out better. In your enclosure, that is not an option. When that aspect of its environment that is detrimentally unsuitable is another inhabitant, it turns out badly. A hide or place to retreat isn't suitable, as the animal is still stressed by the other because it doesn't have its own space. To me, it isn't worth risking the welfare of any of the animals for simply having something more pleasing to your aesthetics.


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## dpjm (Mar 19, 2016)

I have kept adult aquatic turtles (pond sliders) with adult spectacled caimans before. Although I did not lose any of the turtles and didn't actually observe much interaction between them, we pulled the turtles out when we started seeing bite marks on their shells. Aside from physical damage, I imagine that these turtles would have experienced a lot of stress living with large carnivores that would take the occasional lunge at them.

I agree as well with Roadkill's posts about inadequate space in almost any captive environment, compatibility, and disease transmission. One other problem I have encountered in a multi-species enclosure involving carnivores is the necessity to keep these carnivores very well fed to reduce aggressive feeding behaviors. This may require you to feed more than you otherwise would and obesity could result.


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## dpjm (Mar 19, 2016)

Sorry, I didn't read caiman "lizard" I thought caiman, as in the crocodilian.


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