# a discussion on the philosophy of feeding.



## nat (Jan 14, 2008)

This is meant to be a constructive discussion that has really interested me for some time, and one that I which to have a better understanding of. Please keep that in mind if you are offended or feel the need to defend yourself. 

Maybe its because I am a philosophy student and am prone to presenting and debating arguments (its been drilled into me I am afraid), but I wish to gain some insight into and explore the "natural" argument for feeding live. I see it a problematic argument and one that has yet to be presented to me as a strong case. What confuses me the most is that the fact that here we have taken a traditionally wild animal and have placed it in an unnatural condition insofar as we have placed it inside a home, in an enclosure that will NEVER come close to its natural environmental construst, and train them (for lack of a better word) or at least force them on some level or another to interact with us... again an unnatural component and these same people who agree to keep their tegu despite all of these unnatural surroundings use "its natural" as the argument as to why they feed live mice. I would understand this argument better IF there was some necissary health component to it but there is not... feeding dead is just as healthy and arguably natural as tegus are known carrion feeders. 

Also, if one is to abide by the "natural" argument, wouldn't one also be obligated under this theory to provide other natural components to their tegu's care rather than pick and choose what they choose to provide (provided that both means of care provide a healthy environment for the tegu).

and so it begins... discuss!


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## DaveDragon (Jan 14, 2008)

There's nothing natural about being kept in a box and stared at.

If they're living in the wild, that's natural. Anything else is pick and choose.

That was easy!!


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## COWHER (Jan 14, 2008)

Nat I agree with you 100% the ones who use this "its natural" argument are just trying to justify something that they are doing that the know is not necessary. they pick and chose what they want to do but when someone poses a problem with one of their methods they are so pompous and arrogant that they cant admit that the concerned person may be right. :rant


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## PuffDragon (Jan 14, 2008)

I think alot of people would like to keep their reptiles as close to a natural setting as possible. However, in captivity it is just not 100% feasible. You can take steps to give extra comfort to your animals but never could a captive situation reach a natural setting. Sure it could be naturalistic but it's just not the same. As far as feeding and using this "its natural" concept I just don't get it either. I do believe it can be mentally stimulating and healthy for a reptile to eat live once in awhile but to put an animal in a gladiator type situation which we've seen so many times is just not right. I personally have no quams over live feeding as long as its supervised 100% of the time during feeding and the prey is size appropriate. I myself do not live feed though  I think if approached in the right mind set and done correctly everyone can benefit. But to justify "its natural" well define natural in captivity?


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## ColdThirst (Jan 14, 2008)

This topic only concerns the individual opinion. If they want to and supervise they can, if they dont want to because of cruelty issues or the danger it possibly presents to your pet, thats fine and their choice. There is no right or wrong and therefore this thread is redundant, people will do what ever they want reguardless of what others say to what they think is acceptable. On a personal note, I am always with my pets when I feed them, I dont see why you would go somewhere else while feeding them much less when your feeding them live prey. This is not an issue of do's or don'ts, this topic should only be a warning to people feeding live prey, not instructions to not.


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## VARNYARD (Jan 14, 2008)

ColdThirst, while I respect your thoughts and admire your opinion, I must disagree. There is no reason to feed live, tegus will eat pre-killed or frozen thawed with no problem at all.

That said, has anyone else been bitten by a rat? I have, and I will tell you, they have a heck of a bite. These bites can happen very fast, even if you are supervising the feeding process. I have a female that had an eye put out by a rat before she came into my care, I cannot help thinking if that rat was dead before it was fed to her she would still have her eye.

Bottom line, dead rodents don't bite, live ones do. I will also add, tegus fed live are hooked on movement, when feeding dead they are not. Many bites can happen when cleaning a cage triggered by the movement of your hand, this is not as likely when feeding dead rodents.

IMO, frozen thawed are the best way to go, many parasites are killed during the freezing process. I was reading the other day about someone that had to treat their snakes for tape worms, the live rats they were feeding had fleas, the fleas are well known for the distribution of tapeworms. This would not have happened if he had fed frozen thawed instead of live.


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## Lexi (Jan 14, 2008)

I beg to differ Bobby.. Skeletor wont touch a thawed rat.(well maybe if i starved him). I feed live..And i like it...I enjoy watching it.I dont feed live cause its "natrual"..haha my tegus live in a world far from being natrual.. And yes i know the rat can hurt my tegus or my snake..but not yet has this happend...and im not saying that its not going to happen either.. Iv been bitten by my pet rats befor and i know what they can do... My Tegus have never bitten me nor have they ever gone after me while i have been cleaning thier enclosure..Even Voren has never gone after me while i have been cleaning...they know that i am not food.


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## nat (Jan 14, 2008)

ColdThirst said:


> This topic only concerns the individual opinion. If they want to and supervise they can, if they dont want to because of cruelty issues or the danger it possibly presents to your pet, thats fine and their choice. There is no right or wrong and therefore this thread is redundant, people will do what ever they want reguardless of what others say to what they think is acceptable.... This is not an issue of do's or don'ts, this topic should only be a warning to people feeding live prey, not instructions to not.



I think you misunderstood my intent and seem rather defensive... please don't be. 

1) The argument that "there is no right or wrong" irks me (again... probably because I am minoring in ethical philosophy and have it ground into me that moral relativism is NOT tolerance but a refusal to explore what could be potentially good or bad). I am for the TOLERANCE of methods I don't agree with but I do think ultimately there are methods better then the other (in all aspects of life, not just tegus) I am not claiming to have the answer but I would certainly like to explore the discussion. Also, just because someone is going to do whatever they please does not make it right (I am not addressing feeding but just the logic of the problem you are presenting). I am not asking people to simply state their preferences but rather to give me their justifications for doing so.

2) This thread was not started to tell anyone any conclusive answer... I posed a question that was on my mind (for quite some time) that I wished to discuss with fellow tegu owners to see if I could come away with a better understanding in case there is something I was missing to the argument... or perhaps it would further confirm already held beliefs (isn't that what forums are for?) therefor I do not see how this thread is redundant.


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## nat (Jan 14, 2008)

Lexi - do you feel that there are any benefits that your tegu gains for eatting live... and if so, in what way do the benefits outweigh the risks involved in feeding live?


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## Lexi (Jan 14, 2008)

Oh theres def. no gains at all.. besides my enjoyment out of it. but i do feel it keeps my tegus sense's up...I know i am risking the fact that my tegus might get bit.. but im fine with that. Call me a bad owner so what ever you want.. But people take risks..its like smoking cigs. you know it could harm you.. but you do it anyways..


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

I think there is one benefit to feeding live. Mental stimulation.
In a life stuck in a wooden box 90% of the time not much mental stimulation occurs for tegus (or most other captive reptiles) Killing and eating prey obviously gets them excited, thus stimulating them.


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## snakehandler (Jan 15, 2008)

I tend to feed my snakes live rodents because it stimulated them in their behaviour. However with lizards i would never do that, unless its a very young mouse.


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## ApriliaRufo (Jan 15, 2008)

I wasn't gonna post but Kevin opened up my opinion and Lexi justified it. Tegus spend so much time in a centralized environment with the only stimulating activity of being allowed to explore the house each day and harrass my cat. I believe that all wild animals hold a wild sense in their mind and it deserves to be nurtured. I do not believe in the idea of choosing which traits of my animal are valid and which should be taken away. Apollo slowly scoops up a dead rat, eats it, and lays down. It is a defeatist move, and it saddens me to see him losing parts of what he is. I toss a giant roach in his cage and his world has changed, his eyes narrow, his stance changes, his brain becomes active. He hunts, stalks, kills, and remains in that mode until he has searched every last corner of the cage looking for food. The issue of it causing cage agression is a null argument from bad husbandry. If you look at your tegu through the glass and the majority of the time that you open it, you open it to feed. I have no sympathy for you. That's not how it works. Even live roaches and rats, Apollo follows my hand and does not strike until the rat hits the feeding stump. We are seriously miscalculating the intelligence of our animals. We have to show them respect. My tegus come out every day. Their light cycles were adjusted by me to be active in the evenings. I do not condone live feeding, but the point of this article was to debunk the plot of live feeding because of a natural lifestyle response. There is no way to say it wasn't. You present a statement for others to present evidence for you to disagree with. I agree with CT, this is redundant, because the main reason for live feeding is natural response, other reasons like sadism and picky eaters, are not so hard to come by. I didn't really want to discuss this because there are valid reasons to live feed, and I don't want some post to change a person's practices.


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## nat (Jan 15, 2008)

I can appreciate your concerns about the intent of this thread and yes, I freely admit that I don't agree with live feeding. However, I am usually commonly confronted with the argument of it being "natural" and I was simply wanting to see if there was some genuine component to it rather than it be an excuse (most people IMO who have used this argument for me, have never actually been able to justify it, but rather pose it and then can't explain the actual logical justifictation behind it). I wanted to learn more and see IF there seemed to be an actual logical argument behind a concept that I feel has been poorly argued up until this point. Is there something I am missing ? In other words... is this a poor argument OR have people simply been arguing it poorly. I can understand however that people are apprehensive about giving people positive affirmations about feeding live since most people would agree that it is not a practice that most people should participate in. Yours is probably the best argument I have seen for live feeding ... ever, so this forum has been productive not redundant because I am understanding the otherside better than I did yesterday. 

In truth... I would not consider posting this 99.9% of reptile forums due to people's inability to tolerate other perceptions and critically think (in the sense that people would just start flamming eachother and feel personally attacked rather than see that it is an attempt at an objective discussion) but I feel like the members this forum are mature and reasponsible enough to help me explore this issue I have had for some time now.


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

I myself dont agree with feeding live and in most scenarios it is avoidable.
But I do stand by belief that live feeding does add to mental stimulation among captive reptiles (especially concerning more intelligent species such a tegus).

The "more natural" arguement is garbage. A confined prey animal with no chance of escape (except obviously to fight) is NOT natural in any way shape or form. If you were to let a mouse loose in a yard and then have the tegu able to actually hunt it down and track it by scent (or sight) and capture it that would be a more natural method as the prey actually has a chance to escape (anyone who watches national geographic,PBS, or the discovery channel knows that predators miss much more often than they hit).

anyways I'm just kinda rambling so I'll leave it at that for now


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## ApriliaRufo (Jan 15, 2008)

nat said:


> I can understand however that people are apprehensive about giving people positive affirmations about feeding live since most people would agree that it is not a practice that most people should participate in. Yours is probably the best argument I have seen for live feeding ... ever, so this forum has been productive not redundant because I am understanding the otherside better than I did yesterday.
> 
> In truth... I would not consider posting this 99.9% of reptile forums due to people's inability to tolerate other perceptions and critically think (in the sense that people would just start flamming eachother and feel personally attacked rather than see that it is an attempt at an objective discussion) but I feel like the members this forum are mature and reasponsible enough to help me explore this issue I have had for some time now.



This is why this forum thrives. Thank you Nat for introducing an argument, providing a factual collection of evidence, and listenning to others opinions without the need for child-like flaming. When I introduced the idea of a flame room, I meant for it to home arguments like this. The word argument comes with a negative stigma, but this is what I was looking for. Somewhere for us to discuss disagreements with scientific and practical background information for evidence. Unfortunately it seems that the internet flourishes when people sit around and type obscenities in attempt to protect themselves. Back to the topic.

I understand that pk'd rats pose no threat, but I believe that my animals find much more pleasure in their lives being able to hunt, just as I think people would learn to enjoy life without iPods, and capitalist beaurocracy, and a need to "keep up with the Jones'". We are animals and all deserve to feel at least a little like we were when we started. But lets not argue about that.

Instead of one live medium rat, Apollo gets to hunt out 4 small rat pups, individually offered to prevent being clustered. The reason I don't condone live feeding is exactly as you said, most people are not responsible enough to know where the line is, and temptation to give your tegu a rat that is too big just to watch the gladiator-esque (thank you Joe) fight between these animals, is simply too great. 

Thank you to those of you who provided information that was on qeue and relevant. I really enjoy this forum and your ability to keep it running smoothly like this. Looks like their is no need for the flame room, because there are plenty of us and you that make debates a worthy cause, but to anyone who posts "I feed em live because they're alive in the wild", please don't post. That's not an argument, that's an opinion with absolutely nothing to back it up, and for those who posted the opposite, you did the same thing. Thank you Nat.


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## ColdThirst (Jan 15, 2008)

Well, I guess I missunderstood what it was exactly nat was wanting to know or find out however what I said at first still holds. And that being the case I guess the question coiuld have been interpreted in different ways. I do not feed live just to throw that out there, for one I dont want to take the time and go to town and buy a live mouse and birn it all the way back to my house and feed it to one of my pets, also im not going to start breeding mice either. I agree that live feed is stimulating for pets, but think outside the box of reptiles to other kinds of pets. I dont think my dog has lost anything by eating dry dog food for 10 years and I dont even feed him raw meat like he would eat in the "wild." Also my Boa wont strike and eat anything without it moving around like it was alive, so I have to grab a fuzzy with a pair of tongs and make it "dance" for #%@$ 10 min. until it is convinced and eats it lol. And I agree with Aprilia now that he has posted that and was exactly what I was thinking in the terms of the size of the rat you were feeding it. If you still wanted it to have live or feed it live just dont put one in their soo big and the chances of your animal getting harmed go down significantly. And two or three little ones is just as good as one big one, and probably better for digesting also, and would be even more fun for the tegu to get to chase three instead of one. That is my peace.


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## VARNYARD (Jan 15, 2008)

Stimulating activity?? Ok, so lets get live rabbits and live baby goats to feed our German Shepard or Doberman, or even live house cats and kittens. That should stimulate your dogs mind to keep him from getting bored; I mean most dogs will kill if given the chance. If you have a cat, buy it live parakeets, reptiles and rats. I don't see much of a difference there, thatÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¾Ã?â??Ã?Â¢s just my opinion. If you want your animal to have the wild instincts, then why not let all of them have them. And please donÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¾Ã?â??Ã?Â¢t tell me it is because these animals are domesticated, they have wild instincts as well.

Sorry, but I still disagree with feeding live, it just is not worth the risks. I also fail to see a good excuse for feeding live, not when it is not needed.


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

VARNYARD said:


> Stimulating activity?? Ok, so lets get live rabbits and live baby goats to feed our German Shepard or Doberman, or even live house cats and kittens. That should stimulate your dogs mind to keep him from getting bored; I mean most dogs will kill if given the chance. If you have a cat, buy it live parakeets, reptiles and rats. I don't see much of a difference there, thatÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¾Ã?â??Ã?Â¢s just my opinion. If you want your animal to have the wild instincts, then why not let all of them have them. And please donÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¾Ã?â??Ã?Â¢t tell me it is because these animals are domesticated, they have wild instincts as well.
> 
> Sorry, but I still disagree with feeding live, it just is not worth the risks. I also fail to see a good excuse for feeding live, not when it is not needed.




Bobby,

Cats and dogs are not enclosed all day everyday (at the very least in a comparable way to most reptiles) They have access to more mentally stimulating things than a lizard with some mulch a rock a log and a hide. Cats and Dogs also use "play" to a greater extent han is seen is tegus (which really I dont call flicking a mouse around play, but that's as close as it gets)

Nat asked if there was any benefits to feeding live, the mental stimulation is a benefit (but that does not mean negatives outweight the postives and vice versa)

Another point I would like to make is most tegu keepers have to keep their tegus indoors vs your tegus who live outdoors. An animal outdoors will experience many different sights,smells,sounds etc etc etc all of which is mentally stimulating (something different going on = stimuli) Captive (indoor) animals arent usually so lucky and I think often people (keepers) overloook providing mental stimulation for animals.

I dont condone live feeding nor would I ever, but mental stimulation whether you like it or not is a benefit to live feeding. It just doesnt outweigh the negatives.


~Kevin


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## ApriliaRufo (Jan 15, 2008)

You can't act like dogs are just tame wolves either. They have been bread down for hundreds of years. I'm sure you could breed tegus 500 generations down the line in captivity and have quite a different animal. Dogs and cats have instincts, but have been bred so far down the line that most have no idea what to do. I've fed my cats mice sometimes. Doesn't work very often, they usually open their mouths intrigued by the smell and ignore it. I feed dogs meat many a times, but like Kevin said, they enjoy the outdoors, smells, winds, interaction. 

But anyway, this thread was meant to share information, not to throw eggs and try to drill ideals into people's head. Look, a perfect new emoticon. 
:dead :dead :dead


P.S. - I am with holding info from you all to see what this question brought up. I feed one live pup and 3 pk'd pups, or 1 live and 2 small adult pk'd. I believe in live food stimulation, but I won't feed live any bigger than a harmless pup. It's just not worth the risk. Rats and Mice can bite and bite HARD, there's no need to feed only live to your animal. The live harmless pups, get my tegu excited, and the others are eaten with the same fervor.


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## Lexi (Jan 15, 2008)

I dont really know what to say anymore.. cause i feel that people are looking down on me for feeding live which is kinda stupid. so im done.


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

Lexi said:


> I dont really know what to say anymore.. cause i feel that people are looking down on me for feeding live which is kinda stupid. so im done.



I dont look down on you for feeding live, they are your animals and it is your choice in what husbandry methods you use.
Live feeding just isnt something I choose to do.


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## Lexi (Jan 15, 2008)

Thank you.. but i feel these post arnt to help nat understand why people feed live..i feel its more just to prove why it is bad. i maybe be wrong on this..but thats just howi feel.


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

I agree, the thread is getting out of hand
Back on topic people in a civilized manner!!!!! :bang


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## ApriliaRufo (Jan 15, 2008)

Lexi said:


> I dont really know what to say anymore.. cause i feel that people are looking down on me for feeding live which is kinda stupid. so im done.



I don't look down on you in the slightest. You're still Lexi right? Everyone has different methods. No one should look down on anyone's opinion or get all fired up over someone else's preference unless it is a real serious danger. You're a responsible person, so I'm sure you're doing just fine Lexi. 

It's time to stop the forward and harsh posts guys, that includes everyone.

:igu :slap :sobo


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## nat (Jan 15, 2008)

Lexi sorry if you feel attacked in any way, it wasn't my intent. I hope everyone to remember that you can disagree with and both tolerate other people's opinions and that just because someone disagrees with your practice for whatever reason does not mean that they think badly of you. That being said, everyone needs to concentrate on the action and its consequences in the argument and not the character or integrity of the individual. 

So in a funny way (as basic morality often does) both sides are interested in providing the best care for their animals but the value systems are different in that some place a higher value on stimulation and feel that this value of "happiness" (for lack of a better word) that is provided for their tegu has more benefits than the potential risks involved. 

I still feel that the risks are too high to feed live, (it probably has to do with encountering too many live feed victims in my life) in the same way that I don't let my cats hunt mice HOWEVER a real benefit to this discussion for me has been to cause me to spend more time contemplating the role of stimulation contributing to the overall happiness and health of the tegu. Obviously if some seasoned pros think it is valuable enough that certain risks are worthwhile, it is a value that is probably in my best interest to spend more time thinking about. I always knew stimulation was important in the back of my head but I am inspired to re-examine how much time I am dedicated to insuring my tegu is stimulated and ways in which I can accomplish that.

For a tegu at work, I used to stuff food pieces into hallow dog toys and let her bat it around. Perhaps that is something I can re invent for mine. I am still not sure how to handle live insects because I have seen an increase in aggression towards moving things (like my hand) when I provide the tegus with quick moving insects such as crickets... I usually either put them in a food bin so he associates only his food bin with chasing things around. 

ok off for more contemplation!


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## ApriliaRufo (Jan 15, 2008)

nat said:


> Lexi sorry if you feel attacked in any way, it wasn't my intent. I hope everyone to remember that you can disagree with and both tolerate other people's opinions and that just because someone disagrees with your practice for whatever reason does not mean that they think badly of you. That being said, everyone needs to concentrate on the action and its consequences in the argument and not the character or integrity of the individual.
> 
> So in a funny way (as basic morality often does) both sides are interested in providing the best care for their animals but the value systems are different in that some place a higher value on stimulation and feel that this value of "happiness" (for lack of a better word) that is provided for their tegu has more benefits than the potential risks involved.
> 
> ...



what do you think about the pup thing? I think it provides them with enough stimulation without any danger.


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## nat (Jan 15, 2008)

I think pups definately have a lot less potential for inflicting physical damage to the tegu (if any damage is potential at all) however I would still be concerned about potential parasites and / or any products on the rats. I say products because after working in the pet industry for a couple of years I became familiar with the use of some mite dusts, antibiotic sprays, etc etc that are commonly applied to rats and other rodents by either the whole seller before they reach the store and / or the store itself. 

I suppose if one is willing to raise their own rodents many of these issues would become not applicable but I am not willing to raise rodents (or they would become pets indefinately ha ha ). Also, I have had discussions about the parasites rats / mice carry with my vet out of concern for a particular cat of mine that likes to eat mice (except the snout... she leaves those for me to clean up :crazy ) and after exploring all of the potential diseases that can occur, I am really warry of feeding them before they have been frozen and any parasites killed off. I may be MORE concerned then the average person due to my background volunteering in wildlife rehab centers and with rescue reptiles and have come into contact with several devestating diseases and experiences that I care not to repeat if I can help it. Is it likely that home raised rodents will pose a disease threat? not likely but as I am not willing to raise my own food AND I am still not familiar enough with the nature of rodent disease and parasites, I feel at this time for my situation that the risks outweigh the benefit but there are definate benefits none the less.


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## nat (Jan 15, 2008)

I just had a morbid fantasy of attaching a dead mouse to the line of a fishing pole and casting it about the house ha ha... I am sick aren't I? :los


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## Lexi (Jan 15, 2008)

i dont feel attacked in anyways what so ever...
haha Nat thats actully a good idea with the fishing pole.


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## Serafim (Jan 15, 2008)

I know this topic is in the tegu forum but I would like to chime in. I feed both live and f/t. I have some snakes that will not take f/t. I keep mostly ball pythons and some of them have been very difficult to keep feeding on a regular basis. These picky feeders recieve only live prey items. I supervise the feeding and in the case of a rat turning the table I am there to take action. I do wish I could get these guys to take f/t prey because the potential for injury is real. But I do not feel bad or feel like I am doing anything wrong by offering live prey. Some of my snakes will take f/t prey and I prefer this method because of availability cost and convienace.


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## PuffDragon (Jan 15, 2008)

Like I said before I have no problem with people who feed live. I would just like to note that feeding live is said to be seen as a natural thing to do, but we have to remember that captivity is not natural. My personal opinion is this...in the wild a live prey item has a fighting chance. If a tegu came upon a rat in the wild I see 2 things happening. One the rat runs away or two the tegu is lucky enough to sneak up on it and eat it. But even still 9 times out of 10 the prey can still get away to survive another day. This is of course the tegu is hungry and if it wasn't it would just pass by the meal. I don't see feeding live in captivity anything like being natural just because of these simple facts. Prey in the wild will do its best to avoid being eating unlike captivity where there is no place to run and hide except the corner of an enclosure.


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## Harveysherps (Jan 15, 2008)

I feed live . I have fed frozen also. Feeding live is much more satisfying to me. I love the excitement of the snatch and grab. As long as the rat isn't to big for the reptile. Then there is nothing wrong with feeding live. Feeding F/T is for lazy people who want lazy reptiles. It's all a matter of convinence. No one stops to think that feeding F/T isn't good for the mentality to the reptile. As long as it is easy for them to feed and walk away and not have to bother with their reptiles. Most are looking to get by with as little devotion to their reptiles as possible. This is one way of doing so.


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## PuffDragon (Jan 15, 2008)

Wes,
I don't see how feeding F/T or live reflects on someones level of devotion...can you elaborate? I know your statement was representative to the majority of reptile keepers who in this case would not be experienced, but for the most part everyone on this board has a great deal of experience. I don't think anyone of those people who feed F/T have any less devotion to their animals than you or I. I could argue that in the safety and love for their animals they don't feed live because they would hate to have something happen to it. Would this make them less devoted? Personally, I feed F/T and supervise every feeding to the end as I get just as much enjoyment out of my reptile eating F/T as I would live. I have done both as well. I also don't believe that a 5 minute encounter with live prey would make an animal any more active than F/T fed ones. Feeders as a stimulus I do agree with you there but to say ones animal is lazier than the next is subjective to many elements. Hell you could just have a super laid back animal on your hands. Animal personality isn't a factor here?


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## Harveysherps (Jan 15, 2008)

Here this proves it make them lazy. The Burms in the video don't even strike they just eat and look at you. The only excitement in this was holding the rat.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd197/harveysherps/?action=view&current=snakeseating004.flv">http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd19 ... ing004.flv</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd197/harveysherps/?action=view&current=snakeseating018.flv">http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd19 ... ing018.flv</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd197/harveysherps/?action=view&current=snakeseating008.flv">http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd19 ... ing008.flv</a><!-- m -->


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

Harveysherps said:


> I feed live . I have fed frozen also. Feeding live is much more satisfying to me. I love the excitement of the snatch and grab. As long as the rat isn't to big for the reptile. Then there is nothing wrong with feeding live. Feeding F/T is for lazy people who want lazy reptiles. It's all a matter of convinence. No one stops to think that feeding F/T isn't good for the mentality to the reptile. As long as it is easy for them to feed and walk away and not have to bother with their reptiles. Most are looking to get by with as little devotion to their reptiles as possible. This is one way of doing so.





> Feeding F/T is for lazy people who want lazy reptiles.




That sentence doesnt even make sense. It's much more a hassle to leave mice thawing overnight or to set them in hot water to defrost than to simply toss a mouse in a cage. As far as lazy animals go - feeding live nor f/t prey would make an animal lazier or more active in a captive environment. That is a just absurd, that would have something more to do with improper husbandry not feeding methods.
(i.e. subpar temperatures = subpar activity levels for just one example)



> No one stops to think that feeding F/T isn't good for the mentality to the reptile.



I beleive I brought up the point about live prey being more mentally stimulating than f/t. But... live prey is by no means the only way to provide mental stimulation to a captive reptile
(example: rearranging cage decor)



> Most are looking to get by with as little devotion to their reptiles as possible.



:bs2 



> Feeding live is much more satisfying to me. I love the excitement of the snatch and grab.



Well im glad it entertains you to see your animal kill, a bit of a childish mindset IMO but but as long as it makes you (not your reptile) happy then that's all that counts 



> As long as the rat isn't to big for the reptile. Then there is nothing wrong with feeding live



Besides the fact that it could attack your reptile, besides that fact that they can carry parasites that can be passed on to your pet. 
Hell it's even illegal to feed live in some countries, go figure





Now I'm glad everyone could act very mature about this discussion.
Everyone knows the Pro's and Con's of feeding live, Does this thread need to continue???? 

:feba


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## Lexi (Jan 15, 2008)

Like i said before i dont feed live cause its more natrual i feed live cause i feel the my tegus just sit around all day doing nothing and would i would like to keep their sense's up... Puff would you feel better if i let the mouse go in my living room and let my tegus chase after it? cause i still think my tegus would get it no matter what.


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

Harveysherps said:


> Here this proves it make them lazy. The Burms in the video don't even strike they just eat and look at you. The only excitement in this was holding the rat.
> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd197/harveysherps/?action=view&current=snakeseating004.flv">http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd19 ... ing004.flv</a><!-- m -->
> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd197/harveysherps/?action=view&current=snakeseating018.flv">http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd19 ... ing018.flv</a><!-- m -->
> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd197/harveysherps/?action=view&current=snakeseating008.flv">http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd19 ... ing008.flv</a><!-- m -->





You could use tongs to make it more mentally stimulating

I dont see very much laziness here... do you?

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://s60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/Ameivaboy/?action=view&current=MOV02396.flv">http://s60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/Am ... V02396.flv</a><!-- m -->


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## Harveysherps (Jan 15, 2008)

AB^ said:


> Harveysherps said:
> 
> 
> > Here this proves it make them lazy. The Burms in the video don't even strike they just eat and look at you. The only excitement in this was holding the rat.
> ...



Tongs are for Wimps


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

you have an answer for everything I see, Ill give you guys 10 more mins to post before I close this thread as it is no longer constructive


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## Serafim (Jan 15, 2008)

You know and Im saying this respectfully.... I feel like you are telling me im wrong for feeding live prey. I don't have rat bitten worm infested animals so i must be doing something right. I just feel that my opinion to feed live is frowned upon here...


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## Lexi (Jan 15, 2008)

close it..everyone is just getting frustrated.


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

> Tongs are for Wimps



For the record, using tongs you run a much higher chance of getting bitten than you do sliding a door open and chucking a rodent in the cage, darn, I'm such a wimp 8)


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## PuffDragon (Jan 15, 2008)

Harveysherps said:


> Here this proves it make them lazy. The Burms in the video don't even strike they just eat and look at you. The only excitement in this was holding the rat.
> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd197/harveysherps/?action=view&current=snakeseating004.flv">http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd19 ... ing004.flv</a><!-- m -->
> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd197/harveysherps/?action=view&current=snakeseating018.flv">http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd19 ... ing018.flv</a><!-- m -->
> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd197/harveysherps/?action=view&current=snakeseating008.flv">http://s225.photobucket.com/albums/dd19 ... ing008.flv</a><!-- m -->


I still fail to understand. They are reacting to the stimuli and conditions they recieved during their lives. They know they do not have to go all out to capture the animal. I don't think they are lazy because of that. They are just reacting to their environment. If your into the excitment point of view, yes, kind of boring. But for me personally, I enjoy just watching my animals do anything. Could be just me I suppose. As a pet owner I don't understand feeding for my own excitement. As an example, why don't people get all pumped up to feed their dogs? I have reptiles for the same reason people would have dogs. Obviously there are things that can never be the same, but why just because someone has a reptile do they feel the need to feed live for excitement purposes? I don't think its a strong argument for feeding live with the potential risks involved.


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## Lexi (Jan 15, 2008)

Serafim said:


> You know and Im saying this respectfully.... I feel like you are telling me im wrong for feeding live prey. I don't have rat bitten worm infested animals so i must be doing something right. I just feel that my opinion to feed live is frowned upon here...


I agree with you 100% thats what i said earlyer.


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## PuffDragon (Jan 15, 2008)

Lex it's cool...I was just trying to relate how feeding live is not like in the wild. In no way personally attacking anyone who feeds live. I would even feed your tegus live with you


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

Serafim said:


> You know and Im saying this respectfully.... I feel like you are telling me im wrong for feeding live prey. I don't have rat bitten worm infested animals so i must be doing something right. I just feel that my opinion to feed live is frowned upon here...



That is not how it is, Go ahead feed live prey, I am not agaisnt (as previosly stated) I choose not to do it for a variety of reasons.
I have seen many animals that have been fed live all their lives and are perfectly fine, but bad things do happen on occasion, I am not just regurgitating things, I have seen them with my own eyes.
As long as you know the risks then by all means make your own decisions regarding your animals care


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

Ok The thread is now back open for discussion as long as we can stay civil about it, I only locked it because it was getting a bit on the heated side, so let the discussion continue

:thyo


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## Lexi (Jan 15, 2008)

I love you guys :cheers


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## PuffDragon (Jan 15, 2008)

Ok before this gets started up again..I think we should all take a step back and evaluate how we can benefit from this thread. We know it's the owners preference whether to feed live or not. Its obvious the pro and cons of each side. Now how can we constructively discuss any further ideas to this topic?


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## Lexi (Jan 15, 2008)

I think this thread was sopose to be about people saying it is natrual for feeding live..correct?


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

that was one of the arguements that this thread stemmed from, which I have already had my say about


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## MMRR - jif (Jan 15, 2008)

OK, to be totally honest, I feed f/t because it's more economical and I get free frozen feeders. Back in the days when I only had a couple of carnivores I did feed live but it was always stunned before feeding and then tong fed. I have seen too many injured reptiles that were live feeders left alone with a rodent. As much as you claim to supervise until the feeding is over there is always that chance of a distraction...phone ringing, kid calling from school saying they are sick, a sudden bout of montezuma's revenge, etc. One bite, even from a small mouse, can turn into an abscess, especially in an already debilitated animal that is being rehabbed (which we deal with a lot). 

By feeding f/t with tongs you can still stimulate some natural hunting behaviors in your reptiles. I especially enjoy doing this with Savannah monitors! They are so intent on the prey but their depth perception can be pretty bad and it gets quite comical. I also enjoy watching my Argus monitors tripod for their food being held high on tongs. 

If anyone believes I'm a wimp for feeding with tongs I challenge them to come and feed my monitors by hand. You will have Argus teeth embedded in your flesh in no time at all. Tossing not allowed.


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## ApriliaRufo (Jan 15, 2008)

As I said before, you can keen their senses and keep them happy with a live pup and pk'd others. That's what I do with Apollo. The pup isn't gonna do anything to the tegus, and when it's moving he flips a switch in his head and goes after it. Then I feed pk'd by tossing em in various places in the tank, he flies after them. Mission accomplished. Keeps their "natural behaviors" up, their thrill sense up, and nice and safe. However, picky eaters are picky eaters, andd there's not much you can do about it. However I got my BP to eat by changing to a ft rat insteadof lie mice, anshe had no commlaints.


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## techhousejunkie (Jan 15, 2008)

as a new reptile owner 3 months :mrgreen: and being a totally neutral party, i have been feeding live, and now hearing both sides im back in the dilemma i was about a month ago. A couple questions how often do reptiles get sick from eating bad or diseased mice? and secondly is there a process to giving my tegu dead or frozen food or should he/she will take it no problem?


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## Harveysherps (Jan 15, 2008)

I'll say this Tegus and Lizards it doesn't matter cause they will eat it either way. But snakes are the only carnivores that eat healthy live prey animals. Most carnivores eat sick animals. A snake is made to digest fresh meat. I don't mean to insult anyone. But a snake owner just makes his snakes fat and lazy by feeding F/T.


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

Wes,

Do I need to replay that video again??? 
I really dont see a fat lazy snake there


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## AB^ (Jan 15, 2008)

oh I forgot, there are snakes that will eat carrion, it isnt common, but it does happen


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## Serafim (Jan 15, 2008)

MMRR - jif said:


> a sudden bout of montezuma's revenge,



LOL That would be a first for me. I believe it is about personal choice. But for me Its not really an option with the live feeding. What works for one keeper may not work for the next.


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## COWHER (Jan 15, 2008)

Is it really necessary to have to feed a living and potentially dangerous things to provide stimulation?? Can we not think of other ways to keep our tegus stimulated with out putting them in danger? Are we THAT lazy??!!
we have sooooo many other opportunities to keep our tegus happy and stimulated and SAFE yet avoid dangerous activities.. for example I do hide a f/t mouse and let Barbossa smell the trail and "hunt" it down then he feasts. safe, and stimulating. huh, look at that! and I see no possible way for him to get hurt doing that... 
come on people if your only feeding live to "keep them stimulated" then lets get brain storming on other methods of stimulation that are safe!


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## nat (Jan 15, 2008)

harveyherps, thanks for turning a constructive adult conversation into the mental midget of a conversation it became. Why even bother participating in a forum if the majority of us are lazy neglegent keepers. I understand that people have different opinions and I didn't intend to change anyone's already held beliefs but I did ask for people to post constructive arguments in favor of their beliefs. If you aren't capable of doing that, no need to participate. You aren't helping the case of people who did take the time and effort to construct logical reasons behind their responses about why they feed live. I really don't get why you even bothered to post.


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## nat (Jan 15, 2008)

and yes I am in favor of shutting down the thread because I think we are all just getting into a cycle of repeating already stated beliefs but it seems the personal attacks are not able to be left out and I don't want my inquiry to result in anyone being disrespected.


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## VARNYARD (Jan 15, 2008)

nat said:


> harveyherps, thanks for turning a constructive adult conversation into the mental midget of a conversation it became. Why even bother participating in a forum if the majority of us are lazy neglegent keepers. I understand that people have different opinions and I didn't intend to change anyone's already held beliefs but I did ask for people to post constructive arguments in favor of their beliefs. If you aren't capable of doing that, no need to participate. You aren't helping the case of people who did take the time and effort to construct logical reasons behind their responses about why they feed live. I really don't get why you even bothered to post.



I am not going to put up with personal attacks on this thread, you might want to go read the rules here again: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=438">http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=438</a><!-- m -->


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## Harveysherps (Jan 15, 2008)

VARNYARD said:


> nat said:
> 
> 
> > harveyherps, thanks for turning a constructive adult conversation into the mental midget of a conversation it became. Why even bother participating in a forum if the majority of us are lazy neglegent keepers. I understand that people have different opinions and I didn't intend to change anyone's already held beliefs but I did ask for people to post constructive arguments in favor of their beliefs. If you aren't capable of doing that, no need to participate. You aren't helping the case of people who did take the time and effort to construct logical reasons behind their responses about why they feed live. I really don't get why you even bothered to post.
> ...


I was only trying to make you guys think about things. When things get a little heated. Peoples true feeling come out. Some can control themselves and argue without taking it personal. My main intention was to find out . Which ones of you were that way. I was trying to see how tolerant you guys are of others opinions. It seems Bobby is more tolerant than most here. Thanks Bobby I have the greatest respect for you.


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## techhousejunkie (Jan 15, 2008)

I dont think this has been answered yet but has anyone personally had a problem with feeding live or on the other side personally had a problem feeding pre-dead? (medically or temperament)


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## Harveysherps (Jan 15, 2008)

That was a good question. I haven't had any problem either way myself.


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## VARNYARD (Jan 16, 2008)

I went ahead and locked this thread, I just could not see anything good coming from it. Kevin was right for locking it the first time, however, I told him to open it back up if everyone could be civil, but it just started getting personal and this is not what this site is about.


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## AB^ (Jun 9, 2010)

I have just unlocked this thread because while it got out of hand a bit. There was some interesting views on things. Most of the people involved no longer use this forum with any regularity and it may be interesting to see some new view points on it. So keep it clean


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## Herplings (Jun 9, 2010)

*Re:*



VARNYARD said:


> Bottom line, dead rodents don't bite, live ones do. I will also add, tegus fed live are hooked on movement, when feeding dead they are not. Many bites can happen when cleaning a cage triggered by the movement of your hand, this is not as likely when feeding dead rodents.



Ding ding ding ding. The 1000 dollar winner. Bobby made this post on Jan 14 2008 on the 1st page of this thread.
He hit the nail on the head. Pretty much end of discussion.

Tegus, or any other predator for that matter that react to movement is displaying a reaction called "prey drive".

This is the same action that makes a dog chase a ball, or go after someone if they are protection trained. Its the same behavior that makes a Lion chase a Impala, or a Hawk pick off fish in a river, or rats from a field. Nothing more.

For captive safety this has been work out of "pet" type animals. By safety I mean safety for the animal and its handler. There is a level of aggression and confidence a predator has to exert when putting basically its life on the line to kill another animal for food. This behavior could have negative effects on its life in captivity and the person, or people responsible for the animals care. Feeding p/k or f/t helps tame this to a degree.
Proof is basically my large collection of snakes in witch 85% of eat right off the floor of the cage. No biting, no constricting, no invenomating. In essence, no killing, or hunting. Also, no aggression. Just swallowing to eat.
These behavior patterns are not instinctual, they are learned with repetition and time. 
As a result, my snakes never show signs of feeding response, yet they eat every time food is offered.


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## tora (Jun 9, 2010)

Yeah, even with my snakes I've never had a problem feeding f/t. I've seen plenty of pictures of snakes with their heads ripped open to risk it. Once I get my tegu, I only plan on feeding it dead things, with the exception of bugs. The way I see it, the people around here treat their lizards pretty well, so well in fact that I'd say they get about as much mental stimulation as a housecat. They get to go outdoors, they get fed a lot more than just kibble, and they usually get to roam the home as well. I don't think the risk of them losing an eye is worth it, and I don't see why someone would feed a fuzzy over a huge roach anyway (if movement is the whole point of feeding live). Sure the fuzzy can't do much if anything, but aren't baby mice all fat anyway?


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## Toby_H (Jun 10, 2010)

My Tegu primarily eats 'dead' things (ground Turkey and f/t hairless mice)...

Though I sometimes toss him a 2~4" fish from one of my breeding tanks. He is very eager to chase the flopping thing and fiercely gobbles it up. Evean after eating his fill on his stardard foods he just cannot resist attackign the flopping fish.

Thus I would agree that moving prey triggers a primal instinct. One that must be inside of the animal to thrive in the wild, but one that I really do not wish to bring out in my captive animal...


The only time I ever have concern of my Tegu biting me is when I am walking barefoot. He has mistaken my toes for hairless mice two or three times and started approaching them as if they were a meal. But I've yet to get bitten by him in any way.


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## slideaboot (Jun 10, 2010)

AB^ said:


> I have just unlocked this thread because while it got out of hand a bit. There was some interesting views on things. Most of the people involved no longer use this forum with any regularity and it may be interesting to see some new view points on it. So keep it clean




The thread that NEEEEEEEEEEEVER DIIIIIIIIIIIIIES!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!


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## Nafun (Jun 11, 2010)

I keep snakes and turtles, and I'm getting my first tegu this summer. I also raise my own rats, gerbils, and fish as feeders.

When I got my first snake, I fed it a live mouse out of an infantile desire to see it "in action". It was stupid to do, and my snake ended up with a scratch on its face for my immaturity.

I only offer live rodents as a last resort to a stubborn feeder, and then only unweaned rodents with eyes still closed. 

These are captive animals. If you're feeling guilt about keeping them in a cage, you won't assuage it by feeding live.

If you're feeding live because you like to watch your tegu, or any other pet, kill its prey... grow up. 

Contrary to what people think, suffering is not the best seasoning. Veal tastes good because it's made from unused muscles, not because the animal lives its short torturous life in a stall the size of its body. Live rodents won't taste better because they spent the last five minutes of their lives screaming in terror.

It's been said before, but it bears repeating. Dead rodents can't bite your tegu, live rodents can. It doesn't matter whether feeding live is ethical or not. It doesn't matter whether feeding live can make your tegu more aggressive. It doesn't matter whether they primarily eat carrion or live in the wild. A dead rodent will never bite your tegu.


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## reptastic (Jun 11, 2010)

i have seen the damage that has been done to quite a few boas and pythonss by owners who fed live but have yet to see any harmed by a dead rat! i have always fed p/k and f/t and only 3 times have i ever fer live and they were all pinky mice and rat because that was all they had at those times, and i have never had a problem with my tegus taking them. the safety of my pets alwayscome first and i couldnever chance an injury with any of them. i did once have a ball python ho would take live so i always stunned the mice by whacking them hard against something so they still moved but were comletely dazed.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2011)

I know this thread is a little old now but I felt the need to add...

The whole "It's natural" argument drives me insane. Argue all you want but nothing is natural about what we're doing with any exotic pet.

Also, feeding live for "mental stimulation" grinds my gears as well. There are many other ways to provide mentally stimulating enrichment without the risk of causing harm to your animal. I know ferret owners who frequently have begun feeding live mice to their ferrets for "enrichment" and I'm sorry, there's so many more safer enrichment techniques. No excuses.

Personally, I think feeding live is wrong. It's risky for the reptile involved and I personally think it's cruel and inhumane to the prey item. The predator animal doesn't always make the kill properly. Sometimes it's a long, painful death for the prey item. Not nice.

It seems that some people don't understand that what happens in the wild isn't all peaches and gravy. The predator doesn't just eat kill and eat its prey unscathed. Most large snakes and lizards who feed on mammals larger than mice are decorated in scars and wounds. 

I actually just watched a clip of a Green Anaconda killing a Capybara(?) in the wild and suffering from a massive gash in its side. Like, I mean skin hanging, muscle exposed and even almost bone... 


I'm all for natural diets with ANY animal (cats, dogs, ferrets) but I don't believe in feeding live because it's NOT natural, it's not something that's without risk, and there are much safer ways to provide mental stimulation and enrichment.

/rant

Oh, and I wanted to say that it's our job and responsibility to keep these animals healthy, safe, and happy. Willing to let harm fall upon your animal for the benefit of "enrichment" or how "natural" it is is a little counter-productive...


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