# Toxic Mice - Where did all the red dye go?



## VARNYARD (Jan 22, 2009)

I read this tonight, makes me wonder:



> Toxic Mice - Where did all the red dye go?
> "Dog Food Feed is Killing our Snakes" says Jim Jackson of Snake Asylum, Cicero, Il.
> 90-95% of the mice and rats breeders feed dog food only, and the cheapest brand available. The mice are absorbing the large quantities of red dye into their organs. Their metabolism is twice as fast as ours. They can't eliminate it, and must store it in their organs. This red dye, put into the dog food to enhance it's meaty appearance, of course is passed on to the snakes. What happens is that the red dye kills off the snakes kidneys and gaul bladder, and can cause tumors. Jim and his friends are doing extensive research on this , and if they are right, this will explain the mysterious deaths of otherwise healthy reptiles. This brings us to another closer question. If the snakes are what they eat, shouldn't we be more concerned about what we put into our own mouths?


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## VARNYARD (Jan 22, 2009)

> A first control maze run was done with both groups receiving regular food and water. Group B received
> 5% tartrazine in their water for the 2nd and third runs while Goup A did not. Times were recorded and
> factored after each run. We concluded the maze runs after the third run because of many unexpected
> adverse health affects with those that received the tartrazine. MATERIALS
> ...





> Adult Sprague-Dawley rats were fed diets containing FD and C red dye No. 40 for 2 weeks and were then bred. The diets were continued for the females throughout gestation and lactation and were provided continuously to the offspring thereafter. Red 40 significantly reduced reproductive success, parental and offspring weight, brain weight, survival, and female vaginal patency development. Behaviorally, Red 40 produced substantially decreased running wheel activity, and slightly increased post-weaning open-field rearing activity. Overall, R40 produced evidence of both physical and behavioral toxicity in developing rats at doses up to 10% of the diet."





> " Tests were conducted on the effects of diet on the response of immature male rats to massive doses of tartrazine (FD&C Yellow No.5) and Sunset Yellow FCF (FD&C Yellow No. 6). When incorporated at a 5% level in a stock diet, tartrazine and Sunset Yellow FCF had no grossly observable toxic effects. When fed with a purified diet, however, both tartrazine and Sunset Yellow FCF at 5% level in the diet resulted in a marked retardation in growth, an unthrifty appearance of the fur and death of 50% or more of the rats within an experimental period of 14 days. . . . "





> NEWS !!
> 
> PurinaÃ?â??Ã?Â® Cat ChowÃ?â??Ã?Â® is happily advertising "New and Improved Shapes!"
> 
> ...


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## Harveysherps (Jan 22, 2009)

That's why the dog food I feed my rats has no dyes in it. All natural and I have huge groups of babies and never had any effects from it.I'll stand behind it over any other rat feed out there.


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## LouDog760 (Jan 22, 2009)

I will never feed any of my pets anything with red dye.


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## ashesc212 (Jan 23, 2009)

That is very scary because I order my mice online. ...


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## RehabRalphy (Jan 23, 2009)

Who is Jim Jackson? I did a google search and nothing came up. Is he a creditable scientist/MD/PhD? Got a link where the article was found?


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## Tux (Jan 23, 2009)

Well red dye obviously is toxic (to everything) and it is used in commercial dog foods, I know plenty of morons do use commercial dogfood for rats, just nobody I would buy from. original article <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.miceonice.com/horror.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.miceonice.com/horror.html</a><!-- m --> though im not so sure its unbiased . 

i don't need a phd to figure out that many breeders are taking the cheapest route to make the most $.


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## laurarfl (Jan 23, 2009)

I thought a lot of pet food companies were moving away from red dyes because of skin allergies in dogs. About 10 years ago I had a dog I fed Fit N Trim and he did horribly, even though he did well on Purina Dog Chow. I'm quite certain it was the red food dye and have known other pet owners whose dogs had the same reaction. Then Purina took the red dye out of cat chow. I'm surprised the red dye is still around. 

Very interesting article...I'd like to see them do a real study on the issue.


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## RehabRalphy (Jan 23, 2009)

Hmm any idea if Rodent Pro feeds this to their feeders? Or petco/petsmart?

Should this worried about? This is the first time I've really read anything about it.

EDIT: One last thing, has anyone ever seen a feeder that has problems from the red dye? What are some things to look for in a feeder that may show these signs of disease? Bloated stomach? Color of blood? Etc.?


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## Harveysherps (Jan 23, 2009)

The red die will cause them to develope cancer. So if your ats have cancer. It can be one of 2 things. Red Die or genetics I have foound a genetic link to cancer. i have since bred it out of my rats and have no problems. I use Diamond High Energy dog food to gfeed my rats. I have done so for over 10 years and never had a problem. But it has no red or yellow die. The yello die is also not good. And it is in all kinds of stuff. Even stuff we eat. So give that one a thought. LOL


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## Tux (Jan 23, 2009)

Harveysherps said:


> The red die will cause them to develope cancer. So if your ats have cancer. It can be one of 2 things. Red Die or genetics I have foound a genetic link to cancer. i have since bred it out of my rats and have no problems. I use Diamond High Energy dog food to gfeed my rats. I have done so for over 10 years and never had a problem. But it has no red or yellow die. The yello die is also not good. And it is in all kinds of stuff. Even stuff we eat. So give that one a thought. LOL



Yellow red and blue dyes are all banned from human foods, if your eating food with those dyes in it you need to be reporting those companies.

Your "rat food" contains:

Chicken by-product meal, ground corn, rice bran, wheat flour, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols), meat meal, beet pulp, natural chicken flavor, fish meal, vitamins and minerals.

I'm curious what they are calling "natural chicken flavor" but atleast it isn't listing dyes.

You have found a genetic link to cancer? Out of curiosity, what type of cancer and how did you verify it? When you bred out how did you also verify that gene wasn't present in the ones you were breeding to or was it trial and error? Also was it in a single or multiple groups?


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## Harveysherps (Jan 23, 2009)

What I mean to say is that after selective breeding mine do not have cancer anymore. Pretty much trial and error . It's actually more theory than anything. I'm not a scientist or anything. It just from what I've observed for the last 10 or more years breeding rats. But I do feel that the tumors seen in most rats are hereditary. And they can be bred out. But it's hard to figure out which form is which. either hereditary or red die caused. 
As far as the dog food and it's ingredients. It is the best performing food I have found for producing rats on a large scale. Nothing else compares to it. I have tried everything out there and nothing beats it so I stick with it. Results don't lie. I have seen results and benenfit from them. My snakes have good muscle mass and growth with otu overfeeding. I challenge anyone to try it. Set up a group of rats and feed it. Make sure it is a safe brand of food. with atleast 24% protein and 20% fat. The extra fat gets burned up by the breeders so there isn't problems with fat rats. My rats are healthy with good skin and hair and to me make far better feeders than grain fed rats. Grain can get a almost invisible fungus on it and kill what eats it . Rats seem to not have problem with it much. But other animals do. The fungus inside the rats can cause death for your snakes. I can't remember the name of the fungus. But it has caused the deaths of many farm animals. So who is to say it can't get into the rat food. The Diamond company takes measures to check for this fungus. Which only shows up under a black light. So how safe is feeding grain really now.


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## Tux (Jan 23, 2009)

Sorry if you took offense to that wes, I was just being curious and inquisitive, not attacking. Mycotoxins are the issue that causes death, they are produced by varius types of fungus. Species in the genus fusarium produce fusarium toxins (what a surprise!) which can give rats cancer, it's more common in wheat than anywhere else, Ochratoxin A also comes to mind. The one your thinking of is aflatoxin, a mycotoxin produced by Aspergillus and is actually a major problem in corn as are most grain related fungi. Anyway proper storage is key when it comes to grains.


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## RehabRalphy (Jan 23, 2009)

I dont breed rodents. But what worries me is that what are these companies im buying from use for food.


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## ashesc212 (Jan 24, 2009)

RehabRalphy said:


> Hmm any idea if Rodent Pro feeds this to their feeders?



Now I'm wondering about the same thing!


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## Harveysherps (Jan 24, 2009)

Oh no no offense was taken. I didn't even take offense when you said some people who feed dog food are morons. Even after I said I fed dog food. Your entitled to your opinion. If I came off defensive. I apologize for that. I was just stating the things. I've seen after raising rats for over a decade. Just backing my point of view. I value everyone's opinion whether they agree with me or not. It's all part of the learning process. But believe me I've been wrong before. It's not a matter of right and wrong. It's just on opinion along side another. No need for defensiveness. If I came across that way. It wasn't intentional.


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## DaRealJoker (Jan 24, 2009)

I bred feeders and use bird seed, salad scraps, and the crumbs out the bottom of empty boxes. Bread crusts or anything else I think is good enough. I don't use dog food and don't see the benifits. I know I'm just raising feeders but they get fed good just like my pets. None of mice have shown any weird signs of poor health, nor any other birthing issues. I also have no inbreds. I figure we should feed people food to people, dog food to dogs, and so on.


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## Tux (Jan 24, 2009)

Harveysherps said:


> Oh no no offense was taken. I didn't even take offense when you said some people who feed dog food are morons. Even after I said I fed dog food. Your entitled to your opinion. If I came off defensive. I apologize for that. I was just stating the things. I've seen after raising rats for over a decade. Just backing my point of view. I value everyone's opinion whether they agree with me or not. It's all part of the learning process. But believe me I've been wrong before. It's not a matter of right and wrong. It's just on opinion along side another. No need for defensiveness. If I came across that way. It wasn't intentional.



Context good buddy context, when I referenced those using dog food as being morons I was speaking of food with red dye in it. I wish I had the room to breed rats, instead I just buy in bulk and breed my insects.


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## Harveysherps (Jan 24, 2009)

I know. LOL Just making a point. That I know you don't mean me. Therefore no reason to get huffy about it. I got no problems with what you say. Until you direct it at me. LOL Then I will know who it is meant for. LOL


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## Kazzy (Jan 24, 2009)

Wes, where do you find that dog food? Right now I feed my rats basically scraps of veggies, outmeal, and worms (meal worms and super worms...they love them) but I'd love to find a good high protein food for them.


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## Harveysherps (Jan 25, 2009)

Diamond is sold at Tractor supply and most of the large chain stores like Petco and Petsmart. You should be able to find it no problem. It's in a burgandy bag. It is made for hunting dogs. High Energy will be on the bag.


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## Kazzy (Jan 25, 2009)

Thanks!


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## Harveysherps (Jan 25, 2009)

No problem any all natural high protein food will work. The main thing is to watch for red die. This is something not touched on. But Preservatives are also a strong topic . The reason I used Diamond is because every time which is few. That problems arose over their food. They made sure to compensate the person and done it well too. The folks are great. I've talked to lots of people there and all we're helpful and informative. The Diamond is a very good product and cost less than most bulk rat feed. Usually about 1/2 the price. So it makes great sense to use it to me. There are other safe brands . You just have to do your home work. One rule of themb. The cheaper the price the cheaper the product. Cheap dog food is just that cheap. That's what most rat breeders use. Cause of all things money is the key to these cuts. In my case it isn't. I'm looking for quality and production. So therfore. I got with the Diamond. It out performs all other feeds hands down. I've tried them all. 
Purina used to make Rat Blocks and Rat chow. It's hard to get now. But some of it was 48% protein. Protien and fat are what helps the females have large litters and give milk for them. We really need a company that understand how rats really function to formulate a feed for them. I would love to be on the panel to explain what I have learned over the years. This is a great topic. I wished someone who feeds grain as a staple to their rats would chime in. I used to know a breeder that fed her rats chicken scratch. She had to keep huge numbers to supply the numbers I did with less rats.


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