# Oh NO! Xander has a prolapse



## TanMan57 (Oct 13, 2009)

I took xander out to see how his shed went and he deficated all ove my leg and had a prolapse. He started shaking and his back legs stoped working. I am waiting for my ride to get here because there is a massive storm outside


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## Meg90 (Oct 13, 2009)

Keep it moist....put some Vaseline on it.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 13, 2009)

Well it turns out he broke his spine. were not 100% but he cant feel his back legs or tail. They gave him a shot to see if it was just trauma to reduce the swelling. But it looks grim. I thought it was a prolapse but it turns out its just because he cannot control those muscles. Sadly if hes not moving by friday im going to have to put him down. I feel it is lll reptiles fault. The vet said he could have broken his legs because of improper supplement. I know 100% i was providing proper supplement and proper uvb the entire time ive had him. They make me sick to my stomach, They provide sickly animals and are basically a reptile puppy mill.


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## Dvdh1 (Oct 13, 2009)

I am real sorry to hear that. That sucks!


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## Meg90 (Oct 13, 2009)

holy crap.

Do you have any pictures of him? What could he possibly have done to break his spine? Weren't you holding him? Was he OK before he pooped on you??

Thats terrible.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 13, 2009)

I had him in my lap. He turned around and then randomly started shaking and i do not have a pivture. But i feel when he turned around he broke his back. Kind of like a u turn but getting the trailer stuck against a wall. But he basks like that all day long.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 13, 2009)

Oh and he was walking funny on sunday and the vet was not open


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## Meg90 (Oct 13, 2009)

Are you having him put down? Where is he right now?


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## TanMan57 (Oct 13, 2009)

Well i have to see how he goes. If its doesnt get better i will have to put him down. He cant controll boul movements. Wich would cause him to become constipated and prolapse again and again. Enough to where he wont be able to eat and i dont want him to suffer. Also hes in the cage with zero basking but zero is asleep


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## Meg90 (Oct 13, 2009)

Can you take some pictures of him?? I want to see what a broken back looks like. So I will know, if it ever happens to one of my animals.


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## Meg90 (Oct 13, 2009)

In that video of him you posted 5 days ago, he was walking funny--it looked like his right back leg was paining him.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 13, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> In that video of him you posted 5 days ago, he was walking funny--it looked like his right back leg was paining him.


Yea he really hasnt been normal for the past week or so. It just took this emergency to wake me up and rralixe there was a major problem


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## TanMan57 (Oct 13, 2009)

Here are some pics. Since i got Zero Ive noticed xander doesn't lift his legs very high. Zero lifts his quite a bit. So that's probably a sign he wasn't so good

You can tell in this picture his legs are back and his back is bowed






This is just an above shot of him





I have feeling its broken and not just trauma. Unfortunately...


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## Meg90 (Oct 13, 2009)

Was this a herp vet you took him too?

I'm not sure, but I think If he injured his spine, that would mean that something happened to the spinal cord as well, which I would think, would affect much more than just his bowels, legs and tail. The systems are not connectedexactly the same way our are...I think, if he had injured his spine, that there would be a lot more dramatically wrong with him. But again, I am not a vet.

And how did you test to see if he could feel the limbs? Was it a pain test? (pinching his toes, or using a clean needle to poke along the skin--not skewering him, but so that there is an uncomfortable and painful sensation)

There is a big difference to not wanting to USE the muscles, because he is in pain, vrs. not being able to at all.

Where are you located?

I think there is something wrong with his hips/back legs. I think the pain of a break in his pelvis or the surrounding area is what caused him to defecate the way he did. Has his prolapse since, gone back in?


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## TanMan57 (Oct 13, 2009)

He cant feel his back legs down. And yes this was a herp vet. He wobles also when he walks its not like he just drags them he limbs and hubbles


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## Meg90 (Oct 13, 2009)

did she pain test him? he could have been avoiding walking because it hurt to move. Try pinching one of his toes. If he flinches, or has any reactions at all, he can feel them

Where are you located? I almost want to take him off your hands--did the vet say anything about treatment? Or was he like, if it doesnt get better on its own, put it down?


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## TanMan57 (Oct 13, 2009)

He did multiple pain tests. He told me if this shot doesnt make it any better theres no chance he will survive. He has also lost his appitite since it happend he doesnt rat or move very much. And tonight he cant even burrow so hes just sleeping basically where i left him. I feel so bad for him. Theres really nothing i nor anyone can do. If i do keep him he wont be able to pass food and will constantly become constipated and get another prolapse. Im just sad that i cant help him. And believe me if i could help him i would


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## TanMan57 (Oct 13, 2009)

Meg90 said:


> did she pain test him? he could have been avoiding walking because it hurt to move. Try pinching one of his toes. If he flinches, or has any reactions at all, he can feel them
> 
> Where are you located? I almost want to take him off your hands--did the vet say anything about treatment? Or was he like, if it doesnt get better on its own, put it down?


I watched him pain test him for about 5 minutes. Then after the shot 5 more minutes. He was also dripping urine because he cant control his bouls. So thats noy normal if hes just avoiding walking


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## Meg90 (Oct 13, 2009)

This makes me so sad. He's such a beautiful baby....That video of him, he just looks so sweet and little.

If the outlook is really that grim, and his pain is that great, I would really say, have him humanely euthanized. Poor little thing. I would email LLL and tell them the whole story too. Post ALL over the internet about it. I would...do a youtube video titled 'LLL--selling sick, underfed reptiles' or something. His life shouldn't have been for nothing.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 13, 2009)

Yes you can believe i sent them a long angry email. Hopefull they will have the dignity to write back. Also i will be making a youtube video tomorrow. I truely dispize lll i would love to meet that cruel owner of lll one day. Xander basically died i can see it in his eyes he hates it. It allmost makes me cry when i look at Xander.


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## chelvis (Oct 13, 2009)

I know the vet might have already gone over this, but what has his diet been scence you've had him? Just wondering if its not dietary rather than nurological. Mainly becuase if he was calcium defficant before you got him this would explain his smaller size. Even with a proper set up a reptile that is Ca defficant needs an intesive set up meaning a much higher and longer exposure to UVB along with an easily matbolize Ca. Most people only think of Ca diffencies cuasing MBD but in alot of cases they can also cause serve nurological problems. 

Without seeing him i can't say 100%, but like i said it was just a thought. I'm really sorry about your poor tegu though.


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## whoru (Oct 14, 2009)

IM SOOOOOOOOO SORRY TO HEAR ABOUT YOUR LITTLE GU MAYBE HE CAN PULL THROUGH


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## TanMan57 (Oct 14, 2009)

chelvis said:


> I know the vet might have already gone over this, but what has his diet been scence you've had him? Just wondering if its not dietary rather than nurological. Mainly becuase if he was calcium defficant before you got him this would explain his smaller size. Even with a proper set up a reptile that is Ca defficant needs an intesive set up meaning a much higher and longer exposure to UVB along with an easily matbolize Ca. Most people only think of Ca diffencies cuasing MBD but in alot of cases they can also cause serve nurological problems.
> 
> Without seeing him i can't say 100%, but like i said it was just a thought. I'm really sorry about your poor tegu though.


I feed him groung turkey some ground beef eggs steak beef. I also feed him mice and crickets and i dust every meal with vitamins no d3 in it the vet told me my dietary suppliments sound good. I have a powersun and a 7% uvb bulb in his cage. He has absolutely no feeling in his back legs and is now to tired to move more then a couple inches. Im taking him to the vet today.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 14, 2009)

Well they emailed me back with this

We would be happy to try and help you out, but your original email (and this one as well) was not only rude, but didn't include any information at all about the situation, where and when you got the tegu or who you are. I'm not sure how we could respond. We get all of our tegus from reputable breeders.
You are welcome to give us a call at 1-888-547-3784 so we can discuss the situation with you professionally and see what we can do to try and help you out, or if you prefer, you can email us your phone number instead and I can give you a call.

Sincerely,
Kate Larsen
LLLReptile & Supply Co. Inc.

Rude? What do you expect me to be after you have sold me a sick animal that I felt was part of my family? I also spent an extra $100 dollars to try and have my tegu saved. You expect me to feed around the bush? Well it sounds like im the only one thats confronted them bout their mistreated animals.


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## chelvis (Oct 14, 2009)

Feed sounds good (can't say great without knowing the vit brand, some don't put alot of ca in there). 

As for LLL have had mixed experances with them, without seeing the email you sent them its hard to judge thier respones. It dose sound like they are willing to work with you however. I looked over their policys and they say you have to return sick animals and they will replace it with another one. I know this is hard when an animal becomes a part of the family but its a very common and fair practice in the animal trade with large stores. I've been to the store and yes the cages are over crowed but they dog have a decent set up for hold animals, after all they do not breed them they are simply a middle man. Once i realize that they are a business it was a easy choice to pay more from a breeder. 

I really hope little guy gets better. 

sorry if this sounds like i'm backing LLL or condoning what they do, i'm just trying to put thing into perpective.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 14, 2009)

chelvis said:


> Feed sounds good (can't say great without knowing the vit brand, some don't put alot of ca in there).
> 
> As for LLL have had mixed experances with them, without seeing the email you sent them its hard to judge thier respones. It dose sound like they are willing to work with you however. I looked over their policys and they say you have to return sick animals and they will replace it with another one. I know this is hard when an animal becomes a part of the family but its a very common and fair practice in the animal trade with large stores. I've been to the store and yes the cages are over crowed but they dog have a decent set up for hold animals, after all they do not breed them they are simply a middle man. Once i realize that they are a business it was a easy choice to pay more from a breeder.
> 
> ...


It says it has to be returned within a 24hour period. I have had Xander for about a month. And as for calling them i really dont want to. I dont want to receive another sick tegu or even talk to them. If i talk to them i will not be logical on the phone, Because im just so angry with them right now.


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## Tkeller (Oct 14, 2009)

I'm sorry to hear about your Tegu, but to automatically assume it was lll's fault for selling an animal seems a little unfair in my opinion unless you have concrete proof that was the case, and while I did not read your email I own several businesses and things happen, and people e-mail i'll tell you what, some are pretty cool about it, explain the issue and give you a chance to respond, some fly off the handle throw insults and generally go into the email thinking that being rude gets a better response. Being human trust me when I tell you I give as little as possible to the jerk and go out of my way to take care of the guy who was polite and professional. Judging from the email you got in response, maybe you could have given them more of a chance to do the right thing, but they still seem like they are willing to help you out. I suggest calling them and trying to be polite and explain in detail what happened and see what they do. I would almost put money on the fact that they will try to make it right by you somehow, they are human too and deserve to be treated fairly just like you expect to be treated.

Sorry for the high horse ride there, but its been a long day of being bitched at


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## TanMan57 (Oct 14, 2009)

Tkeller said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your Tegu, but to automatically assume it was lll's fault for selling an animal seems a little unfair in my opinion unless you have concrete proof that was the case, and while I did not read your email I own several businesses and things happen, and people e-mail i'll tell you what, some are pretty cool about it, explain the issue and give you a chance to respond, some fly off the handle throw insults and generally go into the email thinking that being rude gets a better response. Being human trust me when I tell you I give as little as possible to the jerk and go out of my way to take care of the guy who was polite and professional. Judging from the email you got in response, maybe you could have given them more of a chance to do the right thing, but they still seem like they are willing to help you out. I suggest calling them and trying to be polite and explain in detail what happened and see what they do. I would almost put money on the fact that they will try to make it right by you somehow, they are human too and deserve to be treated fairly just like you expect to be treated.
> 
> Sorry for the high horse ride there, but its been a long day of being bitched at


You know its whatever now. I just am going to go about my buisness without my little gu by my side. I have to have him put down in a couple of hours. He cannot move any more. I just feel so bad like hes suffering


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## Meg90 (Oct 14, 2009)

I think thats the right decision overall. May he rest in peace, and feel no more pain. Poor pretty baby. 

But I also think you ought to call LLL and talk to them.

If it wasn't in there care, that Xander was treated poorly, then it was at the breeders, or farm who produced him. The company has a right to be notified, and if it was poor "product" received from a breeder, maybe they will not buy from that person again.

I also want to impress on everyone that LLL posts on Kingsnake looking for "Your captive bred tegus and monitors" they take babies from anyone who can prove they are CB. I don't think they are really looking at quality because the add just says "Don't contact us if you have under 5 to sell" IMO they probably just have "sales" on animals that they KNOW are not quality.

Its like in the restaurant biz, what is offered as a "special" is usually surplus, or on the last day it can be served. They try to move it, and move it quick.


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## txrepgirl (Oct 14, 2009)

I am so sorry to hear about what happend to your Tegu.I'll keep you and your Tegu in my prayers.May God give you and your Tegu comfort and peace.I know you are going through a very hard time right now but I wanted to ask you how often did you give him some calcium powder and how old was your UVB light and what kind was it ?

Meg90.You took the words out off my mouth in your last post.Who knows maybe it was genetics.I have a member on the other forum whos Tegu has a bad eye.


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## chris allen (Oct 15, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your tegu. 


I would call them and if they do offer to do something for you, then that is a good thing, and I would also be polite with them. They sent you a very fair response. How does anyone really know what happened that made him sick? Unless you have a necropsy done, but who knows how that will turn out and how much more money that will cost.


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## VARNYARD (Oct 15, 2009)

Man I am sorry to hear about your baby, that really suxs. 

The sad thing is many breeders are not worried about genetics, they want numbers and have no regard for the quality at all. And most whole sellers could care less where the animals come from as long as they get them cheap, and can turn a profit on them.

I do not care what type of animal you are looking for, it is always best to buy straight from the breeder. Any good breeder is not going to whole sale their best babies, their costumers are going to get their best animals.

Yes cheaper, but cheaper is not always better, you get what you pay for most of the time.


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## chris allen (Oct 15, 2009)

VARNYARD said:


> Man I am sorry to hear about your baby, that really suxs.
> 
> The sad thing is many breeders are not worried about genetics, they want numbers and have no regard for the quality at all. And most whole sellers could care less where the animals come from as long as they get them cheap, and can turn a profit on them.
> 
> ...




I agree about buying straight from any breeder, whether its a lizard, a bird, or a dog. I don't remember the last animal I bought from a store......only from breeders, and "pet" owners.


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## VARNYARD (Oct 15, 2009)

Hey Chris, how goes it? Good to see you back in the reptile world.


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## Dvdh1 (Oct 15, 2009)

You know its whatever now. I just am going to go about my buisness without my little gu by my side. I have to have him put down in a couple of hours. He cannot move any more. I just feel so bad like hes suffering[/quote]


I am sorry to hear about Xander. Sharing stories and posts, it feels like we know eachother or at least our pets. Its always hard to lose someone we love


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## chris allen (Oct 15, 2009)

It's going awesome, thanks for asking Bobby. 5 years without any reptiles was waaaay too long.


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## cornking4 (Oct 15, 2009)

:cry: :cry: :cry: :hifit :hifit :hifit :rant :rant :rant :evil: :evil: 

God, you know, stories like these really just break my heart... These evil corporations that just want to turn a profit and don't care about the welfare of the animals they sell just really piss me off. And they honestly had the nerve to tell you that your email was RUDE???? Well, LLL Reptile will never get my business again... I'm just glad there are breeders like Bobby who actually pay attention to and care about the health of the animals he breeds. I see tons of this in the snake game, too. So many breeders take the "easy way out" and sell unstarted nonfeeders that just die in the next few weeks, then say "Oh, don't worry about it, just return it and we'll give you a refund". This REALLY makes me angry, because private breeders such as myself take tons of time to work with the snakes and prep them for sale to their owners. I can't think of how many hours I've spent soaking hatchlings after bad sheds, force feeding picky eaters, and worrying about their health, then to see these "snake mill" breeders just cranking out hatchlings like merchandise... I don't know... it just makes me sick.

REALLY sorry to hear about Xander, and just remember all the good times and love you two shared.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 15, 2009)

Thank you everyone, I cant believe hes gone now. Everytime I look in the cage I think he might be inside. Im just lucky I still have Zero though. I can also tell he knows something happend with Xander and hes probably sad his friend is gon.


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## cornking4 (Oct 15, 2009)

If you want a new friend for Zero, I'm sure Bobby has plenty of Argentines looking for homes.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 15, 2009)

cornking4 said:


> If you want a new friend for Zero, I'm sure Bobby has plenty of Argentines looking for homes.


I dont have the money as of now to buy a new one. Ill have to save up for the next season


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## dragonqueen4 (Oct 15, 2009)

Sorry to hear, I had my argentine tegu euthanized a few months ago, a big company sold him to me with MBD. 
You did the right thing by having him euthanized, hopefully hes in heaven with my little Trooper


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## Terry (Oct 15, 2009)

I am sorry for your loss. All you can do is try to prevent this from happining to your other tegu. Just remember, while he was in your care that was the best time of his life and you gave him the experience of being a real tegu.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 15, 2009)

Here I made a tribute to Xander. Next will be a video telling people not to buy from lll.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TWIrhycZI8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TWIrhycZI8</a><!-- m -->


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## TeguKid80 (Oct 15, 2009)

Well, I am sorry for your loss but I bought the Argentine Black and White I used to have from LLL and I had a great experience with him. He was huge and incredibly friendly so I must say if he lived a month in your care, you should not jump to conclusions over whos fault it is that your tegu died. You should definitely call them and talk to them about it though.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 15, 2009)

TeguKid80 said:


> Well, I am sorry for your loss but I bought the Argentine Black and White I used to have from LLL and I had a great experience with him. He was huge and incredibly friendly so I must say if he lived a month in your care, you should not jump to conclusions over whos fault it is that your tegu died. You should definitely call them and talk to them about it though.


They could have changed between the time you bought yours and the time i bought mine. I know I provided proper temps, food, enclosure, humidity, calcium, bathes, everything. I loved my gu i did everything for him. Theres nothing i could have done to do it, is what i am saying. Plus i dont know if its the breeder or them. Either way the animal is still coming from lll.


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## chris allen (Oct 16, 2009)

Either way the animal did come from LLL, you are correct. But, you are not giving them any chance at all to rectify the problem. As soon as you noticed something was up they should have been contacted. 

Also, do you have a vet report stating what was wrong or cause of death? 

I don't know one way or another if they are at fault or not, but you seriously have to give them a chance to do something(which I don't even know if they owe you anything honestly). Dealing with livestock, sometimes crap happens.......its how we all handle it that makes us better. 

Before you go and badmouth anyone, I would call them.


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## Terry (Oct 16, 2009)

I mostly get my animals second hand. I always looks for ad's selling dwarf monitors cause I feel its better to give them the chance to live. I bought my newest ackie from a breeder and well I didnt notice any thing new but it was nice to meet a breeder. My tegu came from PCPC and there idiots. I picked my tegu from them at the expo and they put him in a pee smelling pillow sack and some other animal had craped in it.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 16, 2009)

chris allen said:


> Either way the animal did come from LLL, you are correct. But, you are not giving them any chance at all to rectify the problem. As soon as you noticed something was up they should have been contacted.
> 
> Also, do you have a vet report stating what was wrong or cause of death?
> 
> ...


Ok.....


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## Meg90 (Oct 16, 2009)

Um, I beg to differ here. If he had a problem with LLL then by all means, shout about it. I saw their booth at the NARBC show, and as I was leaning in for a closer look, a friend of mine said "watch out for LLL alot of their animals are Imports"

Just because the animal is young, doesn't mean it wasn't farm hatched and imported in.

Their tegus and monitors looked slightly better than Xander, and I am assuming this is because people were going to see them in person, and not just from a website.

And IMO if a middle man company receives bad merchandise, it is their responsibilty to either notify their customer, or NOT sell said merch.


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## TeguKid80 (Oct 16, 2009)

I don't honestly think he has any right to be trashing them until he proves that it was their fault his tegu is dead, Meg90. This could affect their business and one thing I will say is in the wild, generally less than 50% of baby reptiles survive so obviously a few out of a clutch may not make it. That being said, there is no way of saying who's fault it is, if anyones. :roll:


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## Meg90 (Oct 16, 2009)

He is sharing his opinion. It IS his right. He has free speech. If that was my tegu, and I was following care posted on this site for a month, and then my baby suffered a severe bone break from bad supplementation (which would NOT be caused by a month without supplementation anyways---and Tanman WAS supplementing) I would think its easy to find the root of the problem.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 16, 2009)

TeguKid80 said:


> I don't honestly think he has any right to be trashing them until he proves that it was their fault his tegu is dead, Meg90. This could affect their business and one thing I will say is in the wild, generally less than 50% of baby reptiles survive so obviously a few out of a clutch may not make it. That being said, there is no way of saying who's fault it is, if anyones. :roll:


Do you work for them? You joined one day ago and have only posted on this thread. You are trying to make it look like it was me. Now i know i provided more than sufficient care. I always fed him great and have only the best for my gus. Now how are you going to tell me it wasnt their fault? It came from them. I hope this affects their buisness or atleast opens their eyes to what is going on.


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## TeguKid80 (Oct 16, 2009)

No, definitely not. I have bought from them before and you are blindly accusing them. You had the tegu for a month, bought him or her as a small baby, and may or may not be right about them being at fault. If you had nicely talked to them then they probably would have rectified the problem. I feel bad for you but you cannot just blame this on them.


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## chris allen (Oct 16, 2009)

I agree with what tegukid is saying, and I definately have no involvement with them and never have. I would also never buy an animal from them, but thats just me. 

It may be their fault,but posting all the b.s. about someone without good facts though is not going to help or hurt anyone, regardless you loud you scream and shout especially a company that size. 

Did you check or ask if the tegu was captive bred and born? Do you know if was cbb? 

How old was this tegu when you got it, judging from the pics I saw he looks pretty young, so really how long could they have had it for that poor supplementation would lead to such a serious issue like that? Were there any signs of MBD? 

Is this something that commonly happens with tegus(im far from an expert on tegus here, so im trying to learn myself), poor supplementation leading to brittle/breaking bones? 

Is there a vet report saying that due to improper supplementation the tegu suffered a bone break? That just sounds out there to me from the start, but im no vet. 

Im just trying to help you here, cool down, call them, act civilized and maybe you can get a credit, refund or another tegu. Maybe you can get some money back and put it towards saving for a quality animal directly from a breeder, I mean after all, you're on a breeder's site here. If they don't try to correct anything and blow you off, then post all the info in a bad guy thread. 

Im curious also, what made you purchase your tegu from them and not Bobby or another breeder? Was it pricing, impulse type purchase, or did you hear good things about their tegus?


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## TeguKid80 (Oct 16, 2009)

Looking at how old he was when you got him, that raises the chances you are right about it being their fault. I apologize if I came off sounding like a jerk and I hope you can afford another one soon. However I still say you should reasonably talk to them about a new tegu or money back.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 16, 2009)

This is the email i got from them when i asked how old. Now 8in for a 4 month old is tiny. And he wasnt exactly just born


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The babies we have right now are all about 4 months old.

Sincerely,
Kate Larsen
LLLReptile & Supply Co. Inc.
<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.LLLReptile.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">www.LLLReptile.com</a><!-- w -->
760-439-8492

In a message dated 9/15/2009 9:25:33 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, <!-- e --><a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a><!-- e --> writes:


hi i purchased an argentine black and white tegu from you guys about a week ago i got him last thursday and i was wondering about how old he was

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I got xander when he was 4 months he was 8in long. I got zero a month later when xander was 5 months and he had grown four inches with me so he was 12in. Zero was just 3months and already 26" now i dont see how it was my fault. Xander grew a total of 6in with me thats almost double then when i got him.


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## TanMan57 (Oct 16, 2009)

There is no vet report since i didnt have $150 to spend on an xray. But he told me he either broke his back or was suffering from severe trauma. When i first went in the problem was from the back legs down. The second time when i was going to have him put down he said it was starting to travel up to the middle of his back because he was now walking gimpier then ever


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## Niexist (Oct 21, 2009)

I can definetely agree about LLL, the conditions they keep their animals in is probably worse than a puppy mill. I've seen them put 20 baby bearded dragons in a 6"x2" "enclosure"

I don't know I'll buy my feeders and other supplies from them because they are cheap, and local, but imo they are about the equivalent of petco.


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## herper9 (Oct 21, 2009)

I personally don't purchase anything from LLL. I've seen their animals at two shows now and most of them don't ever seem to look great. Plus Bobby's gus are about as cheap as they come. 150 including shipping. At the show LLL had their black and whites for 130. As far as Petco, they are not all as bad as everyone makes them out to be. And yes I do work for them. I agree that you should call them in a civilized manner. Who's to say when they got the gu? Maybe they got them at 3.5 months? Which would mean it was the breeder. I tried to find out who their breeder was and they wouldn't tell me, but they did say if they find that the breeder is peddling poor excuses for animals they discontinue their use. Oh and at both shows I've been to LLL gets most of their animals from CalZoo.


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## Jefroka (Dec 13, 2009)

Just now found out you had to put Xander down, so sorry I'm sure you miss him very much.


...Jefroka


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