# Feeding Live vs F/T



## Diablo (Oct 2, 2012)

I searched a bit on the forum for a thread like this, but didn't find too many with opinions that I have seen lately so I'm asking for a discussion on this. I only ask because my local shop seems to only be getting live mice and pinkies lately as their local provider has been having issues or something with F/T. I bought live pinkies today, and my gu ate them up. I really didn't like it, but it is the circle of life. My problems with it is that it might make him aggressive. I would rather just go with frozen but if I have to and my local place doesn't get a constant supply of frozen then I might just have to feed live. What are your guys' thoughts, opinions, experiences?


----------



## MrNiceGuy736u (Oct 2, 2012)

Ive heard the same. F/t is What im using...well he ate his first one today and that's after i made it wet...wouldn't eat it normal lol any one else have that problem. Likes his food with water. But have you thought of breeding them yourself. I would love to.


----------



## TeguBlake (Oct 2, 2012)

Freez them your self, sounds sad but they were gonna die anyways


----------



## Diablo (Oct 2, 2012)

TeguBlake said:


> Freez them your self, sounds sad but they were gonna die anyways



I don't think I can bring myself to do that after today lol. Honestly it was really sad picking them up with tongs and hearing them scream as Yoshi ate them. Maybe I'm a whimp, but I just couldn't give them a slow death. I want someone else to do that for me lol


----------



## TeguLouie (Oct 2, 2012)

its not slow. they go to sleep first. they just slow down until they go under and then never wake up. another alternative which is the same way that the shop will kill them is with Co2. put the in a bag and get a canister like for a pellet gun from walmart. rig it up so you can puncture the seal and point it into the bag the close it. they suffocate and go. same way as the shop does it.

that being said. feeding him live mice wont make him aggressive. it looks like they are more because you are feeding them when you see it. they treat dead food just as vigorously as thy do live food. just nature its in their instincts. IMO it doesnt matter how you feed them as long as you feed them.


----------



## MrNiceGuy736u (Oct 2, 2012)

Could always. Get live and bonk them on the head...like a fish when your out on the stream. Not that bad then...how do you freeze your own. Im most likely going to do this. Have you trIde ground turkey? Or order online...


----------



## Rhetoric (Oct 2, 2012)

I used to buy 50-150 Asf rats when it was practical. I had to buy them live but I couldn't pass it up at the price I was getting. I would buy dry ice and use co2 to do the deed, then freeze them. I have done live a couple times but I haven't in a long time and I wouldn't make a habit of it. Since they are more carnivorous I don't want to risk the chance of aggression. I don't want guru to think its okay to chase/eat things that move. The dry ice worked really well and it's super cheap to do.


----------



## tegus4life (Oct 3, 2012)

You can also order frozen mice online if you want


----------



## tommylee22 (Oct 3, 2012)

I strongly suggest this place as a food sorce(https://www.hare-today.com/). You get whole ground animals, many options and if you need frozen rodents they offer that as well. My Tegu (Biggin) loves the quail and ground rabit with mixed in whole ground free range chicken eggs. The price is awesome, you get the food, break it out into serving ziplock bags freeze and you're good for months. I will also promise you your Tegu will go ape Shi*T for this food.

T


----------



## Neeko (Oct 3, 2012)

The only issue I have with live is the chance of them being sick and or having parasites. Frozen can have parasite issues too I hear.


----------



## Logie_Bear (Oct 3, 2012)

If your getting them from a trusted breeder / shop I wouldn't worry too much about parasites. Most would be killed in the freezing process tho. And if you stick them in the freezer to kill them, remember its only humane on the babies. It's a slow way to go for an adult rodent.


----------



## TeguLouie (Oct 3, 2012)

Logie_Bear said:


> If your getting them from a trusted breeder / shop I wouldn't worry too much about parasites. Most would be killed in the freezing process tho. And if you stick them in the freezer to kill them, remember its only humane on the babies. It's a slow way to go for an adult rodent.



they are food. who cares how they go as long as your Gu eats?


----------



## Little Wise Owl (Oct 3, 2012)

TeguLouie said:


> Logie_Bear said:
> 
> 
> > If your getting them from a trusted breeder / shop I wouldn't worry too much about parasites. Most would be killed in the freezing process tho. And if you stick them in the freezer to kill them, remember its only humane on the babies. It's a slow way to go for an adult rodent.
> ...



This type of attitude towards feeder animals and livestock really rubs me the wrong way. Sure, they're going to die but why cause them horrendous pain and suffering? I love all animals, and even though the feeders are going to die, I'd want them to be put out as humanely as possible. They feel pain like we do. If I had the choice of being dissected and dismembered or having my neck snapped, I would choose the quicker way out. 

Regarding live feeding... I figure with the amount of mice/rats an adult tegu eats, it'd be inconvenient and expensive to live feed. I know for me it's easier and cheaper to keep hundreds of feeders in my freezer.


----------



## Diablo (Oct 3, 2012)

I didnt know hare today sold frozen feeders. Im probably gonna buy from them

Sent from my DROID RAZR


----------



## Logie_Bear (Oct 3, 2012)

[quote='TeguLouie' pid='124381' 

they are food. who cares how they go as long as your Gu eats?
[/quote]


They are living, thinking animals. And rats , for one, are very intelligent animals and make just as wonderful companions as a reptile does for another person. Putting an adult rat in the freezer would not be a quick death. They have fur and body fat and would take many hours to die, slowly and painfully. You would have to be a pretty messed up individual not to care one little bit about the fact you are torturing an animal.


----------



## TeguLouie (Oct 3, 2012)

Logie_Bear said:


> TeguLouie' pid='124381'
> they are food. who cares how they go as long as your Gu eats?
> [/quote said:
> 
> ...



thank you for your quick judgement on my character and state of mind. no i feel that whether you feed frozen or live it doesnt matter how as long as you feed your pet. i care for Lou more than i care about how his food dies.
[/quote]

also you can flash freeze using dry ice or Co2. you do what you do to feed your pet and ill do what i do.


----------



## JohnMatthew (Oct 4, 2012)

> they are food. who cares how they go as long as your Gu eats?





> thank you for your quick judgement on my character and state of mind. no i feel that whether you feed frozen or live it doesnt matter how as long as you feed your pet. i care for Lou more than i care about how his food dies.





> also you can flash freeze using dry ice or Co2. you do what you do to feed your pet and ill do what i do.





> its not slow. they go to sleep first. they just slow down until they go under and then never wake up. another alternative which is the same way that the shop will kill them is with Co2. put the in a bag and get a canister like for a pellet gun from walmart. rig it up so you can puncture the seal and point it into the bag the close it. they suffocate and go. same way as the shop does it.
> 
> that being said. feeding him live mice wont make him aggressive. it looks like they are more because you are feeding them when you see it. they treat dead food just as vigorously as thy do live food. just nature its in their instincts. IMO it doesnt matter how you feed them as long as you feed them.




TeguLouie, which of these methods have you personally used, how often and for how long? I'm trying to determine how much weight your words should hold. The way you talk about "flash freezing" and "puncturing" co2 canisters makes me think you know very little about this subject and are just blowing smoke. You seem confused to me, nothing is getting frozen alive here bud. If you don't even know what's going on how can you expect people to take you seriously?


----------



## TeguLouie (Oct 4, 2012)

Here's what the NYU school of medicine says:

Quote:
Guidelines for Performing Euthanasia via C02 
For rodent species, CO2 is an acceptable form of euthanasia when used under the following guidelines: 

We do not recommend prefilling (precharging) the euthanasia chamber with CO2, since high concentrations (>70%) can cause nasal irritation and excitability. Rather, the animals should first be placed into the chamber, followed by the addition of CO2 at a low flow rate (20% of the chamber volume per minute) to complete the process. Rapid gas flows should be avoided since excessive noises ("winds") can develop and induce excitement/distress in the animals. 

Place the animals into the chamber and turn the red lever until you hear gas flowing at a low rate. 

Gas flow should be maintained for at least 1 minute after apparent clinical death (approximately 5 minutes total). A timer should be used to ensure adequate length of exposure. 

It is important to confirm that an animal is dead after removing it from the chamber. This may be accomplished by assuring lack of heartbeat or by performing cervical dislocation following CO2 narcosis or creation of a pneumothorax following CO2 narcosis. 

According to the 2000 Report of the AVMA Panel on Euthanasia, "Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. CO2 generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (e.g. antacids) is unacceptable." 

Only one species at a time should be placed into a chamber, and the chambers must not be overcrowded. Animals must meet the minimum space requirements listed in the "GUIDE" up until the time of euthanasia. When placed into the chamber, all animals must have floor space. 

Euthanasia should always be done in cohorts (live animals should not be placed in the chamber with dead animals). 

Chambers should be kept clean to minimize odors that might distress animals prior to euthanasia. 

Animals must not be euthanized in animal housing rooms, except under special circumstances such as during quarantine for infectious disease agents. 

Neonates: Since the time period for euthanasia is substantially prolonged in neonatal rodents (rodents 13-16 days) inherent resistance to hypoxia, CO2 narcosis must be followed by decapitation after the animals lose consciousness.


some more information

http://www.alysion.org/euthanasia/index.php


----------



## BatGirl1 (Oct 4, 2012)

*Re: RE: Feeding Live vs F/T*



Little Wise Owl said:


> TeguLouie said:
> 
> 
> > Logie_Bear said:
> ...



When i bred mice for my snakes i built a sleep chamber out of a plastic container, fishtank air hose, and a glue gun to seal the hole.you connect a tank of co2 i believe it's called...you know like you can get to pressurize paintball guns or whatever.you put live rodent in on paper towel and close lid.release only a little gas into chamber at a time and rodent gets sleepy then passes out then dies.it's humane as you can get.i still felt bad but at least not suffering in freezer or whacking it on the head or whatever..online you can get plans for the chamber.cheap and simple...i used it for years...

Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Tapatalk 2


----------



## Logie_Bear (Oct 4, 2012)

TeguLouie said:


> thank you for your quick judgement on my character and state of mind. no i feel that whether you feed frozen or live it doesnt matter how as long as you feed your pet. i care for Lou more than i care about how his food dies.



also you can flash freeze using dry ice or Co2. you do what you do to feed your pet and ill do what i do.
[/quote]

I apologize Louie, I was not making a judgment on your character. It's not that I don't understand the need to feed live. I sometimes do myself. But I do care about the animal I'm feeding as well as the food. I've had pet rats for years (no more, unfortunately) and to say 'who cares if it suffers' upsets me in the same way as if you were to say that about a puppy or other pet. So, sorry I got upset. I would just like everyone to care enough to do the humane thing if you are euthanizing an animal.


----------



## BatGirl1 (Oct 4, 2012)

The worst was having to freeze the pinkies and fuzzies...ugh.because they aren't affected the same way with co2 so you have to just freeze them.guilt...poor little babies.but better than watching the corn snake eat them live from the tail end while it squeaks and wriggles... 

Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Tapatalk 2


----------



## JohnMatthew (Oct 4, 2012)

TeguLouie said:


> Here's what the NYU school of medicine says:
> 
> Quote:
> Guidelines for Performing Euthanasia via C02
> ...





That's dandy TeguLouie, I was asking if you had personal experience euthanizing rodents or if you were just trying to get a rise out of people while badly recycling information you didn't seem to understand. Again, trying to see if your opinion on proper methods of euthanasia should hold water. Have you thrown a live rat in the freezer? Have you gased rodents? Tell me more about flash freezing and its affects on live animals.


----------



## TegusRawsome80 (Oct 4, 2012)

I didn't know members of PETA used this website. It's a rat for crying out loud. Ever seen how your beef is raised? Clearly not if you think this is torture. I thump personally if I get live in. Never had one live through it after the thump. I like rats but are we really going to get emotional over it? Calm down and stop reposting information that you know nothing about. You should try putting down a rat before you judge others. I'm not gonna judge if people freeze em although I personally don't do it. I also don't wanna mess around with CO2 chambers and such. Seems to be a bit of a waste for the relatively small amount of live I get in. It's a personal decision but seriously Logie you don't need to bash someone or accuse them of torture over it.


----------



## Logie_Bear (Oct 4, 2012)

TegusRawsome80 said:


> I didn't know members of PETA used this website. It's a rat for crying out loud. Ever seen how your beef is raised? Clearly not if you think this is torture. I thump personally if I get live in. Never had one live through it after the thump. I like rats but are we really going to get emotional over it? Calm down and stop reposting information that you know nothing about. You should try putting down a rat before you judge others. I'm not gonna judge if people freeze em although I personally don't do it. I also don't wanna mess around with CO2 chambers and such. Seems to be a bit of a waste for the relatively small amount of live I get in. It's a personal decision but seriously Logie you don't need to bash someone or accuse them of torture over it.



How have I been bashing anyone? I said that you shouldn't allow an animal to die slowly when there are humane options available. I hardly see how that equates to me being a PETA member. I actually thump/ break their necks them as well. That way I make sure their death is instantaneous. But I doubt PETA would like it.


----------



## TegusRawsome80 (Oct 4, 2012)

"You would have to be a pretty messed up individual not to care one little bit about the fact you are torturing an animal."
Is that not bashing to you?


----------



## Logie_Bear (Oct 4, 2012)

TegusRawsome80 said:


> "You would have to be a pretty messed up individual not to care one little bit about the fact you are torturing an animal."
> Is that not bashing to you?



No, as that was a universal 'you' and not directed at an individual ( the universal “you” // writing in 2nd person). 

And besides that, I already apologized to him, since he took that as a direct statement and not a generalization (as it was intended). 

And yes, I still think you(universal) would have to be messed up to WANT to purposefully hurt an animal when there are humane options available to you(universal).


----------



## TeguLouie (Oct 4, 2012)

ok obviously my comment has had some ill effects. logie i appreciate your apology and accept it. also for the guy who asked, i gassed rodents in high school for my sisters ball python. for now for my Gu he gets live on the days i purchase or the day after. the rest yes i throw them in the freezer. not your way and i understand but it is what i choose to do. all that being said the difference of opinion and different ways to do things is what a forum is all about.


----------



## DavidRosi (Oct 4, 2012)

Is there not a device that passes electrical current from either side of the head? Think there's something similar they use on chickens... Could be wrong. 

Live feeding of rodents, however, in the UK is illegal


----------



## JohnMatthew (Oct 4, 2012)

I just thought it was silly that a person was advocating methods they had obviously never used. I have no problem with killing an animal, I do however take issue with prolonged and needless torture. You're in the clear though, last time I checked animal protection regulations didn't cover most laboratory/research species, so sleep easy.

I do feel I should remind people here that reptiles, by and large, have no protection against "cruelty" either. When someone can do something without fear of lawful retribution does this automatically make it morally acceptable - honestly? 



> all that being said the difference of opinion and different ways to do things is what a forum is all about.



Agreed, this is why I felt it my duty to debunk freezing as a humane method. I mostly feed a mixture of live and f/t these days but when I pre-kill I use cervical dislocation on anything larger than a weaned rat, everything smaller is thumped. I've killed thousands of rodents in my life, I don't enjoy it but it's a necessity at times. 

I doubt you'll find many who agree that putting a live rat in the freezer is a humane way to euthanize. The exception would be pinky rats that are built to survive low oxygen situations and thus naturally resistant to gassing. I personally don't freeze live pinkies though, they're easily dispatched with a single thump to the head as their skull is paper thin at this age. 

Can we get a show of hands of people who freeze, or have in the past frozen, live rats? With such a method being advocated I'd like to hear your firsthand experiences and observations. :angel:


----------



## TeguLouie (Oct 4, 2012)

Never once did I say that it was humane. I just said it works. You debunk all you want. You have my first hand experience posted as requested. You dont like doing it fine, but I dont see issue with it for ME. Kudos to you on killing thousands of rats continue to do so as you see fit and refrain from judgement.



JohnMatthew said:


> I just thought it was silly that a person was advocating methods they had obviously never used. I have no problem with killing an animal, I do however take issue with prolonged and needless torture. You're in the clear though, last time I checked animal protection regulations didn't cover most laboratory/research species, so sleep easy.
> 
> 
> as stated i have gassed the mice its annoying, time consuming and not worth the trouble to me. no i havent flash frozen, perhaps i should have stated that i have heard about it from other sources, so to prove your point your right i stated something i havent done, but i have gassed and i have frozen i have also "thumped". as for being in the clear i was never worried about being in the clear or not. i know that what i do to kill my pets food isnt illegal. however i will state again it works for me, i have no moral issue with it, and i am not saying that everyone else should do it because it is the only right way. Im just saying it works. if it makes you feel better i will PM you the next time i need to make a decision about my pet and you can lend me your moral compass and the map to the high road your on.


----------



## Pyr0kinesis (Oct 4, 2012)

I do both and it doesn't seem to make them more aggressive but their feeding response will go through the roof. 

It's also excerise for them, though alot of the time they will catch them mid air which means very little excerise lol, and I love what it does to their feeding response.


----------



## Rhetoric (Oct 4, 2012)

Lets be nice and respectful.


----------



## JohnMatthew (Oct 5, 2012)

TeguLouie said:


> as stated i have gassed the mice its annoying, time consuming and not worth the trouble to me. no i havent flash frozen, perhaps i should have stated that i have heard about it from other sources, so to prove your point your right i stated something i havent done, but i have gassed and i have frozen i have also "thumped". as for being in the clear i was never worried about being in the clear or not. i know that what i do to kill my pets food isnt illegal. however i will state again it works for me, i have no moral issue with it, and i am not saying that everyone else should do it because it is the only right way. Im just saying it works. if it makes you feel better i will PM you the next time i need to make a decision about my pet and you can lend me your moral compass and the map to the high road your on.



I did not post here to be your moral compass per se. It was mainly out of fear that some poor soul would see this thread and think that putting live rats in the freezer simply causes them to


> slow down until they go under and then never wake up.


..

I just figured one being so crass about dispatching rodents would have experience with the method(s) they're endorsing. I don't think people should be advised to put live rodents in the freezer unless they are looking for a horror show.


----------



## larissalurid (Oct 8, 2012)

Diablo said:


> TeguBlake said:
> 
> 
> > Freez them your self, sounds sad but they were gonna die anyways
> ...



Freezing them would be a horrible death. Put in a room with added co2 will make them fall asleep then pass on. I think f/t is much healthier. Yes they were going to die anyway, but how about in a more humane way than being ripped apart or frozen to death. As the lizard gets bigger it can also cause safety issues, if a rat bites your tegu it can cause serious damage, infection, etc. I've seen animals killed from being fed live even. mice and rats can scratch and bite very hard.


----------



## DavidRosi (Oct 9, 2012)

I've been bitten by a hamster; which was bad enough. I'd hate for my Colombian to get injuries from a rodent... But saying that; he's a complete wimp... And runs away from locusts.


----------



## laurarfl (Oct 9, 2012)

Freezing a mammal is considered inhumane. period. That's not a PETA or moral issue. And I don't have to freeze a rodent and watch it die to report my personal findings. Many veterinary organizations have taken the stance that freezing is an inhumane form of euthanasia for warm and cold-blooded animals. They don't slow down and die a painless death. Their cells crystallize and freeze and they obviously experience pain as the skin is subject to cold temperatures. Thank you, Tegulouie for posting that article. It is similar to one I read a couple of years ago.


----------



## TeguLouie (Oct 9, 2012)

laurarfl said:


> Freezing a mammal is considered inhumane. period. That's not a PETA or moral issue. And I don't have to freeze a rodent and watch it die to report my personal findings. Many veterinary organizations have taken the stance that freezing is an inhumane form of euthanasia for warm and cold-blooded animals. They don't slow down and die a painless death. Their cells crystallize and freeze and they obviously experience pain as the skin is subject to cold temperatures. Thank you, Tegulouie for posting that article. It is similar to one I read a couple of years ago.



glad you enjoyed it.


----------



## Compnerd7 (Oct 9, 2012)

I have noticed one thing in feeding live vs frozen / pre killed prey. 

The method I use to kill rats or large mice is this: 
I hold the knife end of a butter knife, and with the handle / heavy side I lay the rat / mouse out, and give it one ( on a _*rare*_ occasion I miss, and it takes two blows ) hit behind the head at the cerebral cortex, which will result in an extremely fast death in any mammal. 

Now, when I feed live animals this is what I experience. My Tegu gets extremely excited when he gets even a small glance at any live prey. As soon as the animal gets within his range, he grabs it, give it a violent shake, and it's neck snaps and it is dead within 1 second, 2 seconds max.

Because of the fore mention exercise and other benefits, I fed live, and I have never once seen a killing that lasts any significant amount of time, and is inhuman. 

_Almost everyone here is so touchy about everything. Over opinionated, judgemental, over sensitive, and unreasonable. That is why I don't visit this forum much at all. A lot of posts are meaningless, and the mind set to seek truth is highly lacking. I really don't want to offend anyone on here, but I would like to see people really seek true knowledge, reasonableness along with scientific backing. _

_If you think that feeding live is cruel, you would freak out on a few people I know who have red bellied Piranha. They tie a weight to a rat's tail and throw it in the tank, and watch them rip the animal apart. It happens in the wild often; does that mean we should abstain from this practice because we know better? Maybe. I am not going to say whether I am okay, or dislike this method of feeding; but I* do not judge* the people I personally know who do. I may recommend a better way, but jumping down someone's throat not only isn't going to help, it will also discourage change. Back up what you believe in, if it is factual or find out if only your emotions are involved, blocking out clear judgement. I posted once about the effects of chlorine on a Tegu's skin. A lot of people rejected the information just because they didn't want to listen, even though the evidence and facts were overwhelming. The community here needs to reevaluate how they talk and respond to others.
_
*That is all. *
Freezing mammals vs. suffocating them with Carbon dioxide. Which death would you chose for yourself? Neither. You would rather live. 

*LOL. *


----------



## larissalurid (Oct 10, 2012)

laurarfl said:


> Freezing a mammal is considered inhumane. period. That's not a PETA or moral issue. And I don't have to freeze a rodent and watch it die to report my personal findings. Many veterinary organizations have taken the stance that freezing is an inhumane form of euthanasia for warm and cold-blooded animals. They don't slow down and die a painless death. Their cells crystallize and freeze and they obviously experience pain as the skin is subject to cold temperatures. Thank you, Tegulouie for posting that article. It is similar to one I read a couple of years ago.



So so true. It's a horrible way to die..... :[


----------



## laurarfl (Oct 10, 2012)

If I had to choose....death by CO2 suffocation. Done properly, it is painless. Facts without emotion? It is the CO2 levels in our body that drive our respiration and not our oxygen levels. If the CO2 levels are increased, respiration slows down, the brain does not receive enough oxygen, and the organism loses consciousness. I think we are all aware of the pain associated with frostbite. Severing the head from the spinal cord in one quick motion is supposed to be the fastest and most humane way to dispatch a rodent, according to the AVMA.

Of course this is going to be an emotional topic. humans are emotional beings and we all have different levels of triggers for our emotions. It's an internet forum where people come to discuss. If we were all the same, it would be pretty boring.


----------

