# Extreme Giant Seizure, front legs paralyzed!!!



## SuperSkylar (Aug 21, 2012)

Hey guys, my new baby Extreme Giant woke me up tonight. Whipping its tail, convulsing, eyes opening and closing, same with the mouth, flopping in the corner upside down!
I picked her up and flipped her back over. She was very cold and completely limp. I will go step by step, detailing what happened in the passing hour/s.
She was cold and completely limp. Opening her mouth as if to gag, or attempting to breath, only once every so often.
My place is around 70-80 right now even at night so I don't have the heat lamp up. 
I put the heat lamp on just in case, maybe warm her up and give her extra energy..
I have the the UVB covered so it shouldn't be that.
I picked her up and lifted her super close to the heat lamp, to the point my hands were burning.
After a few times of doing that, she got more active, and would shake her head more often, as well as open her mouth in segments of two gulps.
Her tail began moving side to side in a portion like a snake.
I then noticed her neck had a crink in it, and I worried it was broken. But doubted it because a little later when she got more energy, she could hold her head up by herself.
I thought she couldn't breathe, so i lifted her up, n held her by the back half, so there was no compression on her lungs. She would move around more and more after doing this.
She had to take these huge gulps to fill her lungs it seems.
She began taking gulps in intervals of 3.
She has been twitching more, more energy and active.
Her breathing became regular, and improved lung movement, but still below normal.
I then rubbed her neck multiple times, causing her to move and walk. 
Her back legs finally started working, ans she would push her self away, and then bask.
She can now use her back legs better, and breath a bit better, but she still cannot use her front legs, and her fingers/toes twitch...
She now is going in and out of sleep.

I am SO confused and concerned! Luckily I recorded most of it. Obviously I sound goofy in it.
She seems EXTREMELY healthy. Eats everyday to every other day. She has more than doubled in size in a months time. And has that double double barrel shotgun fat tail already that they usually develop in yearlings.
I feed em chicken liver, blackberries, blueberries, banana, cherries, and some other stuff, along with their vitamins and minerals.

Whats going on?! What do you guys think?!!


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## bmx3000max (Aug 21, 2012)

Can you post the video


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## dragonmetalhead (Aug 21, 2012)

From your description, that does sound like a seizure of some sort. Call your vet ASAP, and show them the video. I hope everything works out and will keep my fingers crossed for you.


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## james.w (Aug 21, 2012)

What are you using for calcium? What are you using for uvb? What is the basking temp and what are you using to provide heat at the basking site?


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 21, 2012)

I talked to my friend who's a nurse, and she said its most likely a seizure.. She said there is probably nothing I can do..
It wouldn't be UVB issues, considering shes only been here around a month. No twitching, and her boy is fine. If anything, I am giving them slight excess. I have 2 48" 10.0 UVB tubes less than 12" above them.
They should get all their calcium and what not from their diet. But I add a little bit of Rep-Cal Herptivive, and phosphorus free Calcium with D3.
As for basking. Like I said, I haven't been using one for the past few days. Its been a steady 100 degrees in my apartment, and 80 degrees at night.
How can I post the vid on here? Just through the attachment button on the advanced reply, like posting a picture?


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## james.w (Aug 21, 2012)

If the enclosure is 100+ degrees throughout the day, there is your problem.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 21, 2012)

james.w said:


> If the enclosure is 100+ degrees throughout the day, there is your problem.



Its not the problem. 100 degree *PEAK* The tank is 80 degrees always. Its can get up to 100 in some spots, but I have the air circulating and its about 70-100 depending on the area.


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## james.w (Aug 21, 2012)

You mentioned your apartment was at 100 degrees during the day. Tegus require a basking spot to metabolize their food. The diet you mentioned doesn't contain much calcium, so unless you are adding the proper amount, calcium intake could be an issue. It most definitely could have been a seizure, but you need to find the cause.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 21, 2012)

james.w said:


> You mentioned your apartment was at 100 degrees during the day. Tegus require a basking spot to metabolize their food. The diet you mentioned doesn't contain much calcium, so unless you are adding the proper amount, calcium intake could be an issue. It most definitely could have been a seizure, but you need to find the cause.


Yes, if you can tell from my first post, I am a little bit shocked and disorderly.
I have been giving them calcium supplements. The male who actually eats less and is bigger is fine..


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## chelvis (Aug 21, 2012)

There is a number of things that it could be. Young tegus may not twitch before calcium deffiancey can result in seizures, small animal there is not a lot of calcium in there small bodies to lose. The temps are worrying, they need a warm basking spot year around (110-120 degrees) but also need a cool space to cool down in. An exposure to too high of temps can result in brain trauma and can also have seizures. A cage mate could also have inflicted a wound to the spinal cord and this could result in what you are seeing. I would separate the two tegus and get the sick one to a vet to try and rule out what is going on, but there is a good chance with a small tegu there is not much they can do. 

Other causes could be toxins, trauma, genetics, virus, parasites, diet, husbandry issues and that's just off the top of my head.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 21, 2012)

Its not the Temps or Calcium. That is ruled out. As I explained before, I mis-typed about the temps. They are not baking in there at all, nor are they freezing. She LOVES to eat. She eats till her stomach looks like its going to burst. 
I HIGHLY doubt she has a broken neck. As she can use her back legs, but not front (which should be the opposite), and support her head up.
I suspect it is most likely neurological... Her balance is very off, leaning/tilting to sides, never flat basking. She still can't use her front legs. 
After talking to my nurse friend, we both have agreed that is is most likely neurological/genetic.
She told me because the Tegu is so small, and a lizard, there is really nothing they can do. 
Hopefully she kicks this thing, but if not, I guess I will have to contact Bobby or something...


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## james.w (Aug 21, 2012)

How are temps and calcium ruled out?? What testing was done to determine this?


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## chelvis (Aug 21, 2012)

I agree with james on this, nothing has been ruled out. Tegus need high temps to digest and absorb their food, they can eat and eat and eat but they are not getting anything from it if they cannot absorb anything. 

If it is nurological like you are thinking, really the only kind thing to do would be to put the little guy down. Before doing that I would do a good review of cage setup.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 21, 2012)

Because I supplement them with calcium, and a generous amount. And she eats all the food I feed her. She eats better/more healthy than my last tegu who was an absolute beauty.
Also, the male who is bigger and eats about half as much as her, is completely fine.
The temps. As I said before, I miss stated. I was shaken up, you can clearly see in the format of how I went about starting this thread. Waking up in the middle of the night, to my poor seizing tegu. 
So please excuse me, I didn't do everything perfect.
The only thing I can say about the temps is that they are DEFINITELY not too hot. I am concerned about the knowledge on here if it is insisted that there MUST be a 120 degree spot 24/7. As in Nature, that is not the case.
So as I said, that is ruled out.

I am sorry if I am coming off as a ****, but I wouldn't come here if it was something so obvious. I figured maybe it may be something not common, but well known about.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Aug 21, 2012)

_Ditto Chelvis,.. just from reading the first post three things popped into my head, lack of calcium, temps and or possible toxins. 

For calcium, what whole prey are you offering? 
With meaty meals where you add your own supplements you have to get the amounts right. Each tegu grows at a different rate therefore will require more or less than the next. Just because one tegu is doing fine and possibly may be getting enough calcium from their diet doesn't mean the other one is. You would be surprised at how much calcium is needed, what it's used for and what it affects in the body,.. from neurological demands to bone structure.

For your temps what are you using to measure them? 
It's a lot harder to keep proper temps with a glass enclosure since temps fluctuate easily. They don't require just high temperatures but a proper temp gradient to regulate their body temps as well as for digestion. If it's 100 degrees in your house then how hot is it inside the enclosure with the lights on? Or even how cold at night with the lights off? You have two extremes going on and they may not be able to properly regulate their body temps, which will only lead to other serious issues. 

With possible toxins it could have been something it was exposed to inside the enclosure, outside of it or food wise. But I'm leaning more towards the first two. Take this first seizure as an early sign that somethings off, needs to be figured out and fixed before it's too late. It doesn't surprise me that it's the smallest tegu that's affected first._


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## james.w (Aug 21, 2012)

I am not saying the basking spot should be 120, but a spot of 105-115 should be provided and they are in nature. Ambient temps of 80 will provide surface temps of 110-120 in the sunlight.

What are the temps in the enclosure, basking and cool side? How are you measuring them? Are you offering any whole prey?


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## chelvis (Aug 21, 2012)

I only bring up the diet and temps because that is going to be the first thing that either a vet or a bobby will ask. No discredit to your nurse friend but humans and mammals are very different then reptiles. Most herp vets eliminate husbandry issues before even examining an animal and 90% of the time this solves the issues. I am sorry if I hit a nerve and yes you are right that 24/7 they do not have those temps in the wild but 6 to 9 hrs of the day for 6 months of the year there are so on average high basking spots should be offered twice a day if you do it mathematically but that's also not what happens in the wild. They also do not eat ground turkey or white lab mice in the wild. 

If you do not want to provided details on the set-up there is little that people over the internet can do. We cannot see, touch or examine the animal. A herp vet can do that, but again they will also want to know the cage setup.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 21, 2012)

james.w said:


> I am not saying the basking spot should be 120, but a spot of 105-115 should be provided and they are in nature. Ambient temps of 80 will provide surface temps of 110-120 in the sunlight.
> 
> What are the temps in the enclosure, basking and cool side? How are you measuring them? Are you offering any whole prey?



I am away from the tank all of today (going to doctors for myself), I will tell you the exact numbers when I am back.
I have a digital humidity temp censor, and the Petco analog kind.
No I don't feed them pinkies or anything like that. Just a WIDE selection of fruits and meats. Along with supplements, and tegu/monitor staple food.


I had them in one of those small 10-20 gallon acrylic tanks. I was going to move them to my 220 gallon glass tank this week as they were too small before.
I have 2 4' 10.0 UVB lights. And 2 150w red heat lamps. 
I use (not sure of the name) that coco shell mulch and cypress mulch for substrate.
Always feed them outside the cage.
Anything else? I am more than willing to answer.


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## james.w (Aug 21, 2012)

So you are keeping two tegus in a 10-20 gallon tank? What is tegu/monitor staple food?


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 21, 2012)

james.w said:


> So you are keeping two tegus in a 10-20 gallon tank? What is tegu/monitor staple food?



Yes, they were small at the time, almost all tail. Its not bad for a temporary home, like a foot by two feet.
I am not sure, I will have to get back to you on that one.


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## james.w (Aug 21, 2012)

Can you post some pics of them and the enclosure?


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## tommylee22 (Aug 21, 2012)

Just a thought, is there a chance you over dosed the Tegu on Calcium with D3?? I've been told to stay away from D3. You said you give a generous amount of calcium in the food. Also the enclosure seems off. Why not post the video or picks of them in enclosure.


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## hanniebann (Aug 21, 2012)

Sounds like heat stroke to me. I've seen plenty of reptiles come into the store that have been accidentally overheated in their enclosure and have permanent brain damage 


Especially when you said the part about the gagging, animals typically will throw up any food when they overheat from what I've seen.


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## laurarfl (Aug 21, 2012)

I would consult a vet


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 21, 2012)

Can't post the videos because there too long...
I can take a pic of my 220 gallon tomorrow if you guys don't believe I have it Lmao smh...
Here is the 20 gallon.
P.s. not heat stroke. The tank has never been over 120, probably much much cooler.
I took the uvb light off so u can see better.


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## Diablo (Aug 21, 2012)

That picture shows hardly anything at all....sorry to say


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## kim86 (Aug 22, 2012)

Is that carpet as substrate?


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 22, 2012)

Lol sorry, on my phone n it only posted 1. It's on carpet. But as previously stated its Coco shells n Cyprus mulch.


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## SnakeCharmr728 (Aug 22, 2012)

im sorry to say but that is not a good setup at all! Iv heard that the red bulbs can damage their eyes but that small of an enclosure would be very difficult to provide enough of a basking spot without having what should be the cool side, over heat as well... and you also dont have any hides, designated basking area like a flat rock or some sort. The water dish is also way too small. Im sorry but one, ley alone two tegus in there is horrible. If you were not ready to provide the proper enclosure from the very first day you brought your tegus home, you shldn't have got them. My guess would be over heating as well... If I were you I would fix your husbandry errors before your other tegu suffers as well


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## TheTeguGurl (Aug 22, 2012)

I am going to have to agree with the post above. Red heat bulb cause problems with the eyes and with as warm as they get your tegu doesnt look like he has a place to hide from the hot spot they create. I recommend that you get a bigger enclosure and correct the temps and get your little guy to a vet to rule out anything.


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## james.w (Aug 22, 2012)

So you have a 150W red light on that tiny cage? If the temps in your house are in the high 90's the temp in the cage is at least that. If you don't get things fixed soon, you will have 2 dead tegus. I'm not sure of the dimensions on a 220 gallon, but if you don't have a way to cool the house/room the tank is in, it won't make a difference. They need to be able to get to a cool spot of 75 or at least 80.


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## Johnnydr (Aug 22, 2012)

That is a super tiny cage, but husbandry issues aside, I do have a '11 AA that has a spine issue that affected the back legs. It's a Varnyard. He had just the smallest little bump on his upper spine and with time and a lot of good supplementation, he recovered in about a week. Still a bit awkward with her balance, but it sorted itself out from what I can tell.

With a healthy looking animal, I would assume husbandry issues.......especially if it was perfectly fine when you got it.....but if it's not husbandry, I thought I'd throw in the possibility of spinal damage, since I'm familiar with it.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 22, 2012)

You guys really need to listen and read through the whole thread. As I said, I havnt been using the red heat lamp. Also, it was temporary for 2 6" tegus. I have a 220 gallon tank. But they were too small for it. If your upset about it, take it up with bobby, because that's what he told me to do. (and sorry, but I think its a fair assumption he's quite more knowlegable than all of you).
Also, as I said. When I frantically posted this and was replying within that hour, I miss spoke. It is a constant 80. I rarely put the red light up. But I figured I would, maybe give her more energy.


So please, take the time and responcibility to read and pay attention to what happened. Because its hard enough having my sweet poor animal have a seizure and seem like its gradually fading, just to have rediculous acusations thrown at you.


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## SnakeCharmr728 (Aug 22, 2012)

Regardless of the temperature and red bulb, it is still way too small of a cage, if you dont have the money to go buy at least a 40gal as a temporary set up because the 220 gal is too big, than at least go to walmart and get a large rubbermaid tote, anything larger than what they are in! That almost seems like tegu jail.... 
And a hide and larger dish..
An upside down cardboard box with a hole cut in it is easy enough to provide, and if you have dishes to eat out of, then you should be able to offer a larger dish, large enough to if they wanted to soak their entire body they could... 

Im sorry if you take offense to the replies here, but we are animal lovers and stick up for the animals. You posted a photo of a cage that is no where near appropriate housing for one, let alone two tegus (even at hatchling size) so what did you expect our replies to be like?


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 22, 2012)

SnakeCharmr728 said:


> Regardless of the temperature and red bulb, it is still way too small of a cage, if you dont have the money to go buy at least a 40gal as a temporary set up because the 220 gal is too big, than at least go to walmart and get a large rubbermaid tote, anything larger than what they are in! That almost seems like tegu jail....
> And a hide and larger dish..
> An upside down cardboard box with a hole cut in it is easy enough to provide, and if you have dishes to eat out of, then you should be able to offer a larger dish, large enough to if they wanted to soak their entire body they could...
> 
> Im sorry if you take offense to the replies here, but we are animal lovers and stick up for the animals. You posted a photo of a cage that is no where near appropriate housing for one, let alone two tegus (even at hatchling size) so what did you expect our replies to be like?


Well I still don't agree with the size issue.. but that's just difference of opinion. I will go and buy a large tote or box.


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## james.w (Aug 22, 2012)

You posted 3 hours after your first post that temps were a steady 100 degrees in your apartment during the day. Maybe you should re-read your posts and get your story straight. If you aren't honest, nobody can help you. It isn't our tegu whose life is in jeopardy, its yours


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 22, 2012)

I am NOT a bad keeper, and DO care DEEPLY for these animals. The minute we agreed the cage was too small, I drove out to OSH and bought the materials for a 4 foot x 4 foot enclosure. Will be set up tonight. So please no more silly remarks.


Oh 3 hours? I'm glad you fully understand and have mastered how the human brain works and reacts in an emergency cituation... Clearly you've never been flustered..


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## james.w (Aug 22, 2012)

It has nothing to do with how the human brain works. You say you haven't been using a basking light because the temps have been getting up to 100. This is 100 with no light, so that would mean the entire enclosure is 100 degrees. If you were using the light and getting a basking spot of 100 that would be a different story. 

What are the dimensions of the 220 gallon? Why not just use that and put a piece of wood in it to divide it to make it a usable size?


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 22, 2012)

james.w said:


> It has nothing to do with how the human brain works. You say you haven't been using a basking light because the temps have been getting up to 100. This is 100 with no light, so that would mean the entire enclosure is 100 degrees. If you were using the light and getting a basking spot of 100 that would be a different story.
> 
> What are the dimensions of the 220 gallon? Why not just use that and put a piece of wood in it to divide it to make it a usable size?



Why are you still instigating this? I already explained my numbers were off.
Do you really need to continue to beat a dead horse with a stick. You seem to be stuck on this. You have never been in a situation where you thought an appointment or class was at 2:30, but was actually 4:30?? Now add in that I wake up at night, after getting next to no rest the night before, to my sweet baby $400 Tegu upside down seizing...


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## james.w (Aug 22, 2012)

Ok you are right, what are the current temps? What are the dimensions of the 220 gallon? Why not just use that and put a piece of wood in it to divide it to make it a usable size?


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## apocalypse910 (Aug 22, 2012)

SuperSkylar - No one here is denying that you care about your animals. With issues like these husbandry issues need to be discussed and when you ask for advice, then deny possibilities out of hand we all have a tendency to go on the offensive. 

I know from personal experience that considering the possibility of keeper error in a situation like this is very painful - it is, however, critical to take yourself out of the equation and focus on being as honest in your answers, and as open minded as possible. I'm not going to say that this is a husbandry error, or a calcium issue, none of us can make that call over the internet - but these are all possibilities that need to be addressed in detail not just hand-waved away as ruled out. 

That being said I think it is time that we all focus on the tegu.

I've read, and re-read all your posts and I have to admit that I am confused . If I understand correctly you are posting details about both your current cage, and the future cage which may have muddled the waters considerably. It may help clarify to go through only the details of your current setup alone. 

As several people have posted I think exposure to a toxin is a possibility - d3 over-supplementation would be the first thing that comes to mind. You posted your typical diet but has there been anything unusual in the last few days?

Can you describe your supplementation - how often are you using calcium? Are you using a multi-vit and how often? what brand/type of calcium are you using? Has he been out at all, any possibility of him getting in to something while free roaming?

I think the key thing is to get him to a vet ASAP - There are simply too many possibilities and this seems exceedingly serious. Please don't wait to get him in.

I have a baby extreme as well and I can't imagine what you are going through - I really hope she makes a full recovery.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 22, 2012)

-I don't know it currently, am away from my apartment. 
-The tank is 2' tall x 2' tall x 8' long I believe. I don't remember exactly, I've had it for like 5 years.
- Good question lol, I didnt even think of that haha. I guess sometimes you have to take a step back to see the simple things.



apocalypse910 said:


> SuperSkylar - No one here is denying that you care about your animals. With issues like these husbandry issues need to be discussed and when you ask for advice, then deny possibilities out of hand we all have a tendency to go on the offensive.
> 
> I know from personal experience that considering the possibility of keeper error in a situation like this is very painful - it is, however, critical to take yourself out of the equation and focus on being as honest in your answers, and as open minded as possible. I'm not going to say that this is a husbandry error, or a calcium issue, none of us can make that call over the internet - but these are all possibilities that need to be addressed in detail not just hand-waved away as ruled out.
> 
> ...


Thank you for keeping an open mind. When I get home, and am on my computer. I will address all of your questions/statements.


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## james.w (Aug 22, 2012)

Even 8x2x2 is a bit on the small side due to the only 2' width, it would work for a short time, but I would get started on building an adult enclosure ASAP.


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## jumper123 (Aug 22, 2012)

I agree with everyone except, as I do feel the enclosure is way to small, I don't think that is the reason this unfortunate event happened. These animals are pretty hardy, provided the MAJOR things are in check (lights,food,cage,heat,humidity) so it probably is something along those lines. Don't get defensive, its just from everyone's experience. My baby died 2 years ago after having a weird "seizure" then going completely paralyzed in his hind legs. I did a post mort. radiograph and he pretty much had no bones, he was translucent (MBD) even though he felt hard and acted perfectly fine (no twitches, ate great etc), tegus tend to hide health issues (survival of the fittest) I only had my baby for 3 days.. I was just too late.


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## james.w (Aug 22, 2012)

@jumper123 - who was your tegu from?


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## jumper123 (Aug 22, 2012)

A private and otherwise shady pet store in the area.. I bought 2 of them for 30 dollars. I really just wanted to try and save them especially since they were trying to sell them as columbians and there was no uvb on them when I bought them, they were quite small maybe 5 or 6in and very green.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 22, 2012)

james.w said:


> Even 8x2x2 is a bit on the small side due to the only 2' width, it would work for a short time, but I would get started on building an adult enclosure ASAP.



Ok, I can't respect your opinion anymore. So a young Tegu that is a foot, or even 2 feet is all tail... And that tank is too small for the babies. Smh, I am actually shocked at your opinion.


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## james.w (Aug 22, 2012)

Can you not read?? I said it is a bit on the small side and would work for a short time. It doesn't matter if he is all tail, think about the animal for once and quit trying to prove that you know what you are doing. I already know better.


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## jumper123 (Aug 22, 2012)

They are pretty active as babies.. I had my 18in male in 7lx4wx3h. however I also couldn't give him much exercise running around like my free range females. if this was a bearded dragon a smaller cage would be suitable. I believe James is just trying to give you the ideal picture of what your baby should be in for maximum health. A very large enclosure gives you plenty of room to work with gradual heat changes and if you can't get to play with your gu for a day they will be ok in a large cage..although from personal experience they ALWAYS want out.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 22, 2012)

jumper123 said:


> They are pretty active as babies.. I had my 18in male in 7lx4wx3h. however I also couldn't give him much exercise running around like my free range females. if this was a bearded dragon a smaller cage would be suitable. I believe James is just trying to give you the ideal picture of what your baby should be in for maximum health. A very large enclosure gives you plenty of room to work with gradual heat changes and if you can't get to play with your gu for a day they will be ok in a large cage..although from personal experience they ALWAYS want out.



I agree, it would be ideal for some 10 foot cube with a tree and pond and what not. Sadly, we can't all do that. I just think its ludacris that anyone would even suggest that the tank is too small for a baby or young adult.
When I am back home, I will post pics of the new cage I build. And answer your questions.


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## laurarfl (Aug 22, 2012)

I would consult a vet.


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## james.w (Aug 22, 2012)

Just to give you an idea my All American was 42" at a year old (not even a young adult) and a 8*2*2 would be WAY too small for a tegu of his size.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 22, 2012)

Hey guys, should I give them a viewing window or no?



james.w said:


> Just to give you an idea my All American was 42" at a year old (not even a young adult) and a 8*2*2 would be WAY too small for a tegu of his size.



Do all Americans have giantism? Or did you just think it was a year old. Because I have never heard nor seen of a Tegu being that large at that age... :/


There, 4'x4' tank. Now to put the floor in.


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## chelvis (Aug 22, 2012)

42" at a year for a male tegu is not unheard of, even some blue males can get that big that fast. It depends on diet, if they hibernate and general genetics, but AA's have giant blood in them. Tegus grow fast! I think this is a point people skip on fast. I think that's why James keeps saying the other tank was small, they will be close to full grown before you know it. 

How is the tegu doing?


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 22, 2012)

I had a yearling that was more like 30 inches, but it hibernated


TALK ABOUT LOVE AND KEEPING ABILITY! PUT THIS SUCKER UP FASTER THAN YOU CAN SAY "TOO SMALL"!! Lol


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## SnakeCharmr728 (Aug 22, 2012)

Hides please!


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## james.w (Aug 22, 2012)

I know he was a yearling, I got him from Varnyard and he hatched 8-1-2010.

Enclosure looks pretty good (very temporary) but good size. Now some hides, water bowl, and a way to keep humidity up (unless you live somewhere humid) and you should be good.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 22, 2012)

Put the water bowl in. Got umidity up. Will do the hides tomorrow. 
Temporary? Yea, I mean its not glass... But technically speaking, this is much more acurate to where they would be in nature than glass/acrylic, being wood fiber
Lol, and not even a "good job" hahaha. Man some people.. "YOUR POOR ANIMAL!!!", you build them a monsterous enclosure probably bigger than 90% of the peoples on here, n its just what ever.. sure you care about the animals, n not just feeling right. :/


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## Orion (Aug 22, 2012)

Your Tegu sounds like it needs whole prey items, ie mice. Always use pre killed mice never live. 
I had the what sounds close to the same issue with one of my Tegus. She got better and is 100% good now. She had been impacted from eating mulch. She had surgery to remove the impaction. She was getting worse after surgery, while she could not eat solid foods. The vet diagnosed MBD and the vet was even giving her liquid calcium, and she was not getting better. She was dragging her front legs for a month, I even gave up hope that she would be normal again. I did not think she would get better. I left the country for a month and my friend was taking care of her. We talked once a week. She was getting back on solid foods then and my friend said she was starting to use her front legs. He increased the mice to once every 3 days instead of once a week. It took some time but she recovered. I gave up using any kind of calcium after seeing the results of the vet getting nowhere even using the liquid calcium. I have not used any calcium supplements in over 2 years and all 3 of my Tegus are very healthy.


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## james.w (Aug 22, 2012)

Good luck with your tegus Skyler. You don't seem to want advice, but rather to hear everything you are doing is perfect. Sorry to break your heart, but your care is quite a bit below average.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 22, 2012)

Thanks a lot man. Il try that.
And posting freak.. lol, its not that I need a pat on the back. It's your attitude this whole time. I don't need an "oh wow, great job". But it just shows how fake your whole deal is that your not even excited for the animal. I know damn well that if the situation was reversed, I would be extatic. But here you stay..



Orion said:


> Your Tegu sounds like it needs whole prey items, ie mice. Always use pre killed mice never live.
> I had the what sounds close to the same issue with one of my Tegus. She got better and is 100% good now. She had been impacted from eating mulch. She had surgery to remove the impaction. She was getting worse after surgery, while she could not eat solid foods. The vet diagnosed MBD and the vet was even giving her liquid calcium, and she was not getting better. She was dragging her front legs for a month, I even gave up hope that she would be normal again. I did not think she would get better. I left the country for a month and my friend was taking care of her. We talked once a week. She was getting back on solid foods then and my friend said she was starting to use her front legs. He increased the mice to once every 3 days instead of once a week. It took some time but she recovered. I gave up using any kind of calcium after seeing the results of the vet getting nowhere even using the liquid calcium. I have not used any calcium supplements in over 2 years and all 3 of my Tegus are very healthy.


How much did all the cost btw?? For the surgery n extra vet bills, n what not.


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## tommyboy (Aug 23, 2012)

SuperSkylar said:


> Put the water bowl in. Got umidity up. Will do the hides tomorrow.
> Temporary? Yea, I mean its not glass... But technically speaking, this is much more acurate to where they would be in nature than glass/acrylic, being wood fiber
> Lol, and not even a "good job" hahaha. Man some people.. "YOUR POOR ANIMAL!!!", you build them a monsterous enclosure probably bigger than 90% of the peoples on here, n its just what ever.. sure you care about the animals, n not just feeling right. :/



I think you would be shocked to hear how large most members enclosures are. I would say that 90% have much larger than your 4x4. It would not be considered a "monstrous" enclosure.
James does not sugar coat anything, but you will be hard pressed to find many other members with more knowledge. You may not like how it comes across on the computer, but you really should listen to what people are telling you.
I think your 4x4 is fine...temporarily. I own 2 tegus that were just shy of 4 feet within a year. Your 8x2x2 is ok for your hatchlings, but 2 feet deep is not enough for a 2.5 -4ft yearling. Dont take everybodys remarks as personal attack. people are just trying to help you and your animals. I really hope you keep us informed about how he is doing and that you get him looked at by a good reptile vet ASAP.


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## james.w (Aug 23, 2012)

Thanks tommyboy.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 23, 2012)

I would not be shocked. I think the truth is being stretched here more than any thing. Because when 90% of people post pictures of there young/yearlings, they are in glass cages. I have only seen pro breeders build 8'x8'+ cages. That doesn't even shock me lol. It costs about 100 dollars to build something like that.. all you need is the know how and space.
I agree if they were 4', I would build a much larger enclosure. But until then, now that the tank is hundreds of times bigger than them, they are fine.
I came on here if anyone had previous or knowlege of their tegus going the same thing. Not people guessing with no personal experience.


*Experience with there Tegu having a seizure*


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## DavidRosi (Aug 23, 2012)

I've read through all 5 pages of this thread and can safely say you need to grow up and stop being a child about everything. All points made have been very good points, from the outside I can see that clearly. How about just accepting the facts and stop letting your ego get so ahead of you. Rant over. P.s. any comments concerning my tegu, husbandry or enclosure will be dismissed; as you clearly are just a lot more bark than bite.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 23, 2012)

Hey guys, could you post your 4' yearlings and 8'x8' enclosures please, I'd really love to see them.


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## SnakeCharmr728 (Aug 23, 2012)

who ever said 8x8? most of us keep them in 8x4's. 

I have my 4month old in a 4x2 
and my adults have a 8x4. 

All we want to do is help you, and you are taking offense, having an attitude like that will get you in more trouble than good as people will not respect what you have to say.


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## james.w (Aug 23, 2012)

Here is an 8x3.5






Here is my tegu when I first moved him in





Here he is again, a little bit older and bigger


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## DavidRosi (Aug 23, 2012)

SuperSkylar said:


> Hey guys, could you post your 4' yearlings and 8'x8' enclosures please, I'd really love to see them.



I feel genuine and deeply sorry for the tegus in your care.


James.w, amen to that !


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 23, 2012)

I thank those that were actually helpful. Again, thank you.


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## james.w (Aug 23, 2012)

Nothing to say about the pics I posted?


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## apocalypse910 (Aug 23, 2012)

Any updates on her condition?

I will tell you that while I think it is important to do your own research into his condition it is imperative that you get her to a vet. I know you were told that there is nothing they can do for a lizard his size - but that is completely untrue. I've brought many reptiles to my vet over the years - she has saved their lives on more than a few occasions - Many of them were far smaller than a young tegu. 

A qualified reptile vet should be able to get at least an idea of the cause and figure out a plan for treatment if something can be done. Surgery may be difficult for a small lizard - but medication is available, and if the problem is nutritional you can proceed accordingly. Right now none of us know what the problem is because we can't do an examination, run blood tests, or take x-rays. All we can do is make guesses about the issue based on husbandry.

I couldn't give less of a damn about the cage size right now - it is important but the tegus being cramped didn't cause a seizure - building them a larger cage won't fix it. Symptoms don't get much more serious than seizures - its as simple as this, if you care about her as much as you say you do prove it and get her to a vet.


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## laurarfl (Aug 23, 2012)

ditto


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 23, 2012)

apocalypse910 said:


> Any updates on her condition?
> 
> I will tell you that while I think it is important to do your own research into his condition it is imperative that you get her to a vet. I know you were told that there is nothing they can do for a lizard his size - but that is completely untrue. I've brought many reptiles to my vet over the years - she has saved their lives on more than a few occasions - Many of them were far smaller than a young tegu.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much. And yes there is improvement. She can move ok now. Not eating, but I pick her up and let her drink water. She has MUCH better muscle control. She can't use her front legs, but can move them a bit more than before.
I will put the hides in soon, I have the set up really nice now. A huge water bowl to drink and lay in. Around 110 basking spot. Lots of UVB, will probably add more. Tall wall height so it can be open top for air circulation. Just bought a bunch of whole prey.
Doesn't get much better. I really hope my girl continues to improve. By the way they're growing, and what you guys say, in this tank size, and feeding habits, my boy should be a 5' yearling hahaha


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## james.w (Aug 23, 2012)

How are you going to keep the heat and humidity in the enclosure with the open top?


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## apocalypse910 (Aug 23, 2012)

SuperSkylar said:


> Thank you very much. And yes there is improvement. She can move ok now. Not eating, but I pick her up and let her drink water. She has MUCH better muscle control. She can't use her front legs, but can move them a bit more than before.
> I will put the hides in soon, I have the set up really nice now. A huge water bowl to drink and lay in. Around 110 basking spot. Lots of UVB, will probably add more. Tall wall height so it can be open top for air circulation. Just bought a bunch of whole prey.
> Doesn't get much better. I really hope my girl continues to improve. By the way they're growing, and what you guys say, in this tank size, and feeding habits, my boy should be a 5' yearling hahaha



I am so happy to hear that she is feeling better.

Sorry for another long-winded post but after reading everything in the thread again I think you need to reconsider MBD as the likely culprit here. I still maintain that you will not be able to get a definite diagnosis without going to a vet but given the info you've provided I think it warrants another look. 

I used to think that MBD was something that happened when irresponsible owners didn't give their lizards calcium. Unfortunately reality is far far more complex than this. I learned the hard way - I've always prided myself on my husbandry and I've kept reptiles for virtually my entire life. A few months ago I lost two of my Juvenile geckos to the disease despite having dusted every meal they ever ate. I was devastated - and honestly had trouble even believing the diagnosis at first as it struck so fast and left all of my older geckos unscathed.

Calcium intake is only one part of the equation. The foods you listed aren't particularly high in calcium so you definitely need supplementation. As far as I know the only foods that don't require it are foods with bone included. Liver, ground meats, and veggies don't have enough on their own. You are supplementing some which is good - The whole prey you got will be a huge improvement as I think the bone is absorbed better than supplements. 

I think you have D3 covered - glass filters UVB and screen reduces it but from what you said you had two fairly powerful bulbs so I don't think a lack of D3 caused the issue. In fact if your main calcium source has d3 they may be getting too much but thinking about it more I don't believe that is your issue.

I honestly think the problem is the lack of a basking spot. Digestive enzymes only work properly at a narrow temp range. In humans this isn't an issue - we are warm blooded and stay at a constant 98.6 degrees. Reptiles are whatever temp they are exposed to - so while an 80 degree cage seems warm they can't properly digest unless they have access to a higher temp to thermally-regulate. The result is poor absorption of food, and the associated nutrients including calcium. This seems to be one of the more overlooked causes of MBD. 

In juvenile lizards many of the initial signs of the disease are skipped - no early tremors, deformed limbs, etc. Their calcium requirements are insane so the disease can strike stunningly quickly.

The symptoms are seizures, tremors after exertion, kinks in spine, and paralysis/paresis of the limbs. It seems to be a perfect fit and the temporary lack of a basking spot could easily explain how it happened. 

I can't stress enough that this is still a serious condition but it is treatable if you get to a vet. It sounds like you are putting a lot of work into getting a more permanent setup together which is good - but this will not resolve on its own even if a proper basking spot is provided. The vet can prescribe calcium injections and oral medications which will make a big difference in recovery. This condition can result in cardiac arrest - you may not have any warning if things are getting worse. 

We are all rooting for her - Please promise me you will see a vet tomorrow.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 23, 2012)

james.w said:


> How are you going to keep the heat and humidity in the enclosure with the open top?


High humidity here/in my apartment.



apocalypse910 said:


> SuperSkylar said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you very much. And yes there is improvement. She can move ok now. Not eating, but I pick her up and let her drink water. She has MUCH better muscle control. She can't use her front legs, but can move them a bit more than before.
> ...



Thank you, finally someone who took the time to actually fully explain things/give real input, and not half insults.
Your logic does make sense, and I think it is a 50/50 chance that its that or neurotic. I didn't think of it like that.
I think the basking light is REALLY helping, but only time will tell.
Again, how much does all the vet stuff cost? Just curious?
I have been holding her up and putting a worm in front of her, touching her mouth. She doesn't bite.. I will try a pinky next time.
Also, I can buy the liquid calcium n force feed her. Should I try that?? Cheaper alternative, and due to her size, its probably the same effects as what the vet can do.


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## laurarfl (Aug 24, 2012)

Another issue with MBD (actually it is Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathyroidism) is that juvenile lizards have a superb demand for calcium, especially if they are fed large amounts of food to achieve rapid growth. The body MUST maintain a balanced level of calcium in the blood plasma in order for nerves, skeletal muscles, and organs such the heart and intestines to function normally. If the blood plasma cannot be maintained, then the parathyroid glands secrete a hormone that signals the bones to release calcium. The long-term symptoms of MBD (NSHP) are skeletal deformities, but the immediate signs are nueromuscular issues such as twitching, loss of appetite, poor muscular control. While i respect the knowledge your nurse has for human medicine, the common ailments for reptiles are a bit different.

Everything needs to be corrected for treatment: basking temps of 110-115, proper calcium supplementation, a quality UVB source set up at a proper distance, diet correction. A vet visit would probably cost about $100.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 24, 2012)

laurarfl said:


> Another issue with MBD (actually it is Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathyroidism) is that juvenile lizards have a superb demand for calcium, especially if they are fed large amounts of food to achieve rapid growth. The body MUST maintain a balanced level of calcium in the blood plasma in order for nerves, skeletal muscles, and organs such the heart and intestines to function normally. If the blood plasma cannot be maintained, then the parathyroid glands secrete a hormone that signals the bones to release calcium. The long-term symptoms of MBD (NSHP) are skeletal deformities, but the immediate signs are nueromuscular issues such as twitching, loss of appetite, poor muscular control. While i respect the knowledge your nurse has for human medicine, the common ailments for reptiles are a bit different.
> 
> Everything needs to be corrected for treatment: basking temps of 110-115, proper calcium supplementation, a quality UVB source set up at a proper distance, diet correction. A vet visit would probably cost about $100.



I have all those in check. And she showed NO signs, hell she was even digesting her food... She had NO twitching, HUGE appetite, perfect muscle control..


Thats why it was such a shock. Because sure the tank was small, but she was VERY healthy. She was starting to out grow the male lol. Then in the middle of the night, she had a seizure...


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 24, 2012)

GREAT NEWS GUYS!
So she has been gulping up water (compared to before)
She can move her shoulders a liiittle bit!!
And shes not impacted because her super full tummy is going down!
YAAAAY!
Tomorrow, I will try to hand feed her a bloody calcium dusted pinky! I honestly doubt she'll take it, but its worth a shot 
And what do you all think about the liquid calcium???


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## james.w (Aug 24, 2012)

If liquid calcium is the only form you can get in her, than go for it. It is not the best stuff, so if you can get her to eat that would be better. Dubias dusted with calcium, rat pups cut up small enough for her to take them would probably be the best form of calcium if she will eat. Good to hear things are getting better.


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## apocalypse910 (Aug 24, 2012)

So glad to see some improvement!

I think liquid calcium could help somewhat - it is better than nothing. It is not going to be the same as what the vet prescribes and it is not going to be nearly as effective as the injection they can do. I believe calcium gluconate is the oral medication they provide - it is available off amazon but the quantities are huge and dosing it without a vet is going to be very difficult/dangerous.

I don't wish to be alarmist but this is a life threatening condition, and if she's already had a seizure & paralysis it is advanced. It is your responsibility as a pet owner to provide veterinary treatment when it is needed - and she needs to see a vet.

I understand that money is tight - if that is the case explain the situation to the vet. Many will work with you - or at least give you some guidance over the phone on how to proceed. I can't tell you exactly how much it will cost - a checkup plus meds is usually around 100, if she needs x-rays it will be more.

I don't wish to lecture -you've gotten enough of that in the last few days I think but you do need to plan vet care into your budget for any animal. You may even want to consider pet insurance - it is pretty cheap for lizards. I'm going that route next month as I'm generally a bit tight on cash and I couldn't take it if I lost my tegu because I couldn't pay for a vet. 

I am thrilled you are seeing good signs - please don't underestimate the severity of the situation though - she does need treatment.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 24, 2012)

Animal insurance? How much does it cost for a tegu?? That sounds like a great investment.


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## apocalypse910 (Aug 24, 2012)

SuperSkylar said:


> Animal insurance? How much does it cost for a tegu?? That sounds like a great investment.



I don't have it yet because they require that you have the animal for 60 days - but when I talked to them on the phone I believe they said $9 per month. Covers 90% of the vet bill for non breeding/parasite related issues up to $5000. There is a waiting period so unfortunately it won't help right now but it may be good going forward.


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## laurarfl (Aug 24, 2012)

bangs head on desk


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## chelvis (Aug 24, 2012)

Health insurance for reptiles is not worth it. Make sure to read the fine print sometimes husbandry/owner neglect are not covered and most companies use this to dodge paying out even if its not the case. SO watch out for that.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 24, 2012)

GUYS SHE ATE! All this hard work is paying off! She ate 3 juicy worms! I had to hand feed her, n she accidentally bit my fingers a few times, BUT SHE DID IT!


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## james.w (Aug 24, 2012)

Good to hear, she needs some calcium rich foods now.


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## SuperSkylar (Aug 24, 2012)

She is exhausted now. Tomorrow I will try and feed her a deep calcium fried pinky haha


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## apocalypse910 (Aug 24, 2012)

chelvis said:


> Health insurance for reptiles is not worth it. Make sure to read the fine print sometimes husbandry/owner neglect are not covered and most companies use this to dodge paying out even if its not the case. SO watch out for that.



Good to know - Thank you. I hadn't seen many people with personal experience with it outside of dog/cat insurance. I read through all the paperwork on VPI and it appeared that the only exclusions were breeding complications, parasite medications, and foreign invasions or nuclear attacks for some reason. I usually hate insurance but the terms of the reptile policy seemed reasonable. I keep an emergency fund for my reptiles and can absorb a few hundred dollars in vet bills if I need to - my fear is that I will run into an issue like impaction that can result in several thousand dollars in surgery that I can't possibly afford otherwise. I couldn't live with myself if I had to make a bad call on Loki's health for financial reasons. 

My main concern is that whether through insurance or out of pocket- vet bills are an unfortunate eventuality with pet ownership. For some reason very few people would refuse to take a dog or cat to the vet - but with reptiles, even expensive ones it seems to be something that a lot of people don't plan for and don't do.


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## jumper123 (Aug 24, 2012)

I have Health insurance on my guys and for 150$ a year it was well worth it. I get paid back a decent amount of each bill!


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