# Is eco earth a good substrate



## batmanjosh5000 (Feb 26, 2013)

is eco earth a good substrate for a savannah monitor and tegu? becuase i need a substrate that can hold humidity and i like eco earth for my beardi because its pretty cheap, hides smell, and is claimed to be digestible


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## TeguBuzz (Feb 26, 2013)

Eco earth is not digestible. Tegus and savannahs require different care, so I suggest you stop grouping your questions in regards to tegus and savannahs. Instead, split the questions up - read savannah monitor care sheets, visit monitor forums, and all that.

Your questions are quite basic, and it irritates me to see that your questions are grouped and are in regards to savannahs and tegus. They are not even remotely related and require completely DIFFERENR care. But I'm sure you already knew that. Do your extensive research regarding savs, I'm almost positive you won't find all the info in that book you have or on tegu talk.


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## leosbybam (Feb 26, 2013)

What tegubuzz said...For my tegus I use a sand soil mix.As for your beardie I would use newspaper.


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## batmanjosh5000 (Feb 27, 2013)

TeguBuzz said:


> Eco earth is not digestible. Tegus and savannahs require different care, so I suggest you stop grouping your questions in regards to tegus and savannahs. Instead, split the questions up - read savannah monitor care sheets, visit monitor forums, and all that.
> 
> Your questions are quite basic, and it irritates me to see that your questions are grouped and are in regards to savannahs and tegus. They are not even remotely related and require completely DIFFERENR care. But I'm sure you already knew that. Do your extensive research regarding savs, I'm almost positive you won't find all the info in that book you have or on tegu talk.



Ya im aware but this qeustion actually was about both, i wanted to know if it worked for both of them because i didnt decide yet and i wanted to set up the enclosure, and if eco earth worked for both of them then id be able to add that withought having decided which one yet



leosbybam said:


> What tegubuzz said...For my tegus I use a sand soil mix.As for your beardie I would use newspaper.



ya ive heard good things about the sand and soil mix, is that pottting soil and just regular sand u can get from home depot? and does it cause impaction for baby tegus?


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## TegusRawsome80 (Feb 27, 2013)

No it doesn't work for both. It will probably work decently for a tegu but your savannah will likely die from long term dehydration. If you don't know what that is yet you clearly haven't done the reading multiple people have tried to send you to. No idea why you won't just READ and LEARN.


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## Deac77 (Feb 27, 2013)

Why in gods name keep a beardie in Eco earth are you trying to cause a ri??? These guys need low humidity and Eco earth comes wet so unless you have dried it for weeks this isn't going to work


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## TeguBuzz (Feb 27, 2013)

Deac77 said:


> Why in gods name keep a beardie in Eco earth are you trying to cause a ri??? These guys need low humidity and Eco earth comes wet so unless you have dried it for weeks this isn't going to work



Very well said. I just now saw his post saying he keeps his bearded dragons on eco earth. 

To the OP - what makes you think you can care for a savannah or a tegu if you can't even care for your bearded dragon properly? Bearded dragons in captivity do best on tile or something along those lines. I use to keep some of my adults on newspaper, some on tile, and the larger retired breeders I use to keep on washed and dried out play sand. 

Dragons require a dry environment and there is no way they can possibly thrive on a substrate as moist and humidity encouraging as eco earth.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Feb 27, 2013)

_Eco Earth is a good substrate that can be used both dry and moist. It's sold dry in a loose or compacted form, most people just use it in tropical setups and add as much moisture needed for what they keep. Since it absorbs and holds moisture well. It's not digestible but it passes through the digestive system easily. Impactions are not just substrate related quite a few things can cause one, some more so than others.

The only con I see with it is that it's not firm enough to hold burrows and that's where savs, sand and soil mixtures come in. Savs need to burrow so eco earth alone wouldn't work well enough for them. But it can also be used with or inplace of soil in a sand and soil mixture. 

Sand and soil mixes are pretty much topsoil and play sand from home depot or where ever. The mixture required to hold burrows varies depending on the type of sand and soil you use. _


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## batmanjosh5000 (Feb 27, 2013)

TegusRawsome80 said:


> No it doesn't work for both. It will probably work decently for a tegu but your savannah will likely die from long term dehydration. If you don't know what that is yet you clearly haven't done the reading multiple people have tried to send you to. No idea why you won't just READ and LEARN.



Dude u aint got the slightest clue how much ive been reading on savannah monitors. Every single night for the past 4 months i have been reading caresheets, books, and forums, infact savannah monitors are the only specific thing that ive researched this intesly, the information i couldnt find or wanted more info on the topic i asked here. As far as dehydration goes, of course im aware of dehydration, but not everybody says u need a humidity at 60% or higher



Deac77 said:


> Why in gods name keep a beardie in Eco earth are you trying to cause a ri??? These guys need low humidity and Eco earth comes wet so unless you have dried it for weeks this isn't going to work



Its completely dry, after i soaked the brick i laid all the eco earth on a bunch of newspapers with a bunch of heat lamps over it for like 2 days until it was totaly dry, then i placed it in his cage. It even says on the eco earth that it works just as well as a dry substrate to keep humidity low, the hydrometer says thers 35% humidity which is the same as my room


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## TegusRawsome80 (Feb 27, 2013)

Do you know what longterm dehydration is? You may think I "aint got the slightest clue" but you're the one trying to keep a second Savannah monitor in an awful setup with bad husbandry after you already killed one through the same method. You clearly are listening to whatever fits your flawed idea of proper husbandry. You should really listen to the best advice out there which currently is Savannahmonitor.co. If you don't, you will end up with a dead monitor yet again.


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## TeguBuzz (Feb 27, 2013)

Research for 4 months? Yea right. You have proved time and time again in less than a week that you don't even know the slightest bit of UP TO DATE info on savannahs. You want to get one? Go ahead, it's obviously your choice, but with the care you've described - it will die.


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## batmanjosh5000 (Feb 27, 2013)

Bubblz Calhoun said:


> _Eco Earth is a good substrate that can be used both dry and moist. It's sold dry in a loose or compacted form, most people just use it in tropical setups and add as much moisture needed for what they keep. Since it absorbs and holds moisture well. It's not digestible but it passes through the digestive system easily. Impactions are not just substrate related quite a few things can cause one, some more so than others.
> 
> The only con I see with it is that it's not firm enough to hold burrows and that's where savs, sand and soil mixtures come in. Savs need to burrow so eco earth alone wouldn't work well enough for them. But it can also be used with or inplace of soil in a sand and soil mixture.
> 
> Sand and soil mixes are pretty much topsoil and play sand from home depot or where ever. The mixture required to hold burrows varies depending on the type of sand and soil you use. _



Awsome! thank u for answering my qeustion well! Do u think eco earth and sand mix would be better for a baby since it would proboly reduce the risk of impaction?


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## TegusRawsome80 (Feb 27, 2013)

No topsoil and play sand would work way better because it HOLDS HUMIDITY AND BURROWS. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to monitors.


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## batmanjosh5000 (Feb 27, 2013)

TeguBuzz said:


> Research for 4 months? Yea right. You have proved time and time again in less than a week that you don't even know the slightest bit of UP TO DATE info on savannahs. You want to get one? Go ahead, it's obviously your choice, but with the care you've described - it will die.



Ive read all that, I read savannahmonitors.co a bunch of times as well as other sites that agree with there veiws, but saying the way i have in mind is going to kill him, now thats ilogical. First off the first one i had petland gave us back our money because they said he was sick when we got him which makes sence, second how can he for sure die if i follow my book? this man has clearly owned many savs this way and they have lived, even if u say its "outdated" that doesnt change facts that his lived even with though u claim they die doing it his "outdated" way. Clearly if this guy mark k bayless's monitors kept dying because of the way he kept them, u would think he would be smart enough not to publish a book on how to keep them alive. and if ur gonna say he didnt keep his monitors the way he says to in the book, then thats just rediculous, because why would someone who loves monitors write a book on how to kill them!? So clearly we see that the ways of his book doesnt kill monitors even IF its "outdated


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## Ripkabird98 (Feb 27, 2013)

batmanjosh5000 said:


> TeguBuzz said:
> 
> 
> > Research for 4 months? Yea right. You have proved time and time again in less than a week that you don't even know the slightest bit of UP TO DATE info on savannahs. You want to get one? Go ahead, it's obviously your choice, but with the care you've described - it will die.
> ...



I lived with tons of bugs as a kid. They all died. Lemme go write a care book so I can make money from suckers like you, I mean, I had A LOT, so I clearly am an expert.


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## BatGirl1 (Feb 27, 2013)

One note about beardies...i used to keep my mary on playsand but later switched to paper towels because way easier cleanup 

Sent from my ZTE-Z990G using Tapatalk 2


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## TegusRawsome80 (Feb 27, 2013)

He obviously didn't understand that his care wasn't up to today's standards. I haven't read the book but those temps are not accurate. If you knew anything about Mark you'd know he unfortunately passed away a number of years ago. He definitely didn't intentionally try to care for his monitors in a less than ideal way. He was a great man and a pioneer in the monitor keeping industry but times have changed and care has become better and more advanced. As a keeper, it is your job to follow those changes and change with it.


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## batmanjosh5000 (Feb 27, 2013)

Ripkabird98 said:


> batmanjosh5000 said:
> 
> 
> > TeguBuzz said:
> ...


So then according to u, Mark K Bayless was an evil man who lied that his savannah monitors lived to 15 years, thought "hey even though all my savs are dying i am going to write and publish a book on them to make money", If u really believe that this is what he was thinking i would like u to tell me why he would go through extensive research on their diet, history, natural habitat, breeding them, and their medical problems but tell all of the wrong husbandry related topics, OR ur second option is that he made up every single thing up in the book, now the first option clearly seems REDONKULIS, and the second option could make in terms of his motivation, but then why would there be such good reveiws on a book that kills peoples pets? I would like an answer to this if u can


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## TegusRawsome80 (Feb 27, 2013)

Mark was not "evil". His care is simply outdated. He is not evil, I have a friend who was very close with him and he was a great guy but his book is outdated if it states that basking temp. We are basing our claims off of what you told us you read. I don't know if it's true or not. I haven't read the book but you need to read some updated care information.


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## batmanjosh5000 (Feb 27, 2013)

TegusRawsome80 said:


> He obviously didn't understand that his care wasn't up to today's standards. I haven't read the book but those temps are not accurate. If you knew anything about Mark you'd know he unfortunately passed away a number of years ago. He definitely didn't intentionally try to care for his monitors in a less than ideal way. He was a great man and a pioneer in the monitor keeping industry but times have changed and care has become better and more advanced. As a keeper, it is your job to follow those changes and change with it.



Agreed, that would definately be ideal. But ive read the book probobly 6 or 7 times, he even stated that people online say to have a 130 basking spot which he thinks is absurd because proteins break down at that temp, infact he gave an explanation why people have it so hot and he said "its because someone online told them to!", and he says 105 is good, he as well said that if humidity is too high (above 20%-50%) that they could have shedding problems. Now u could say that hes an idiot and hes totaly wrong, but even if hes wrong his monitors didnt die and if i follow his instructions mine should have the same same chance as his many monitors. And even if following his book is all i could do it still might be a good thing to get one because u even said "a majority of savs dont make it to there 1st birthday" (which ik is from savmonitors.org cuz ive read 50 times), so a sav with me according to u and especially Mark K Bayless would give 1 sav a better chance at making it than with someone else, if that statistic is accurate



TegusRawsome80 said:


> Mark was not "evil". His care is simply outdated. He is not evil, I have a friend who was very close with him and he was a great guy but his book is outdated if it states that basking temp. We are basing our claims off of what you told us you read. I don't know if it's true or not. I haven't read the book but you need to read some updated care information.



and im quite aware he wasnt evil, i was just trying to show tegubuzz how his statement was ilogical


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## TegusRawsome80 (Feb 27, 2013)

How do you know what happened to all his monitors? Go outside and take the temperature off of a piece of flat rock in your yard or something when the air temp is 105. The surface temp will likely exceed 130-140. I am talking about surface temps. Maybe Mark meant air temperature I don't know but what is important for monitor basking spots is surface temp of the object they are basking on.


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## TeguBuzz (Feb 27, 2013)

Can you post pics or something of the sort from the book where he says it is absurd to keep them at 130? Explain to me why it is that keepers who keep there savs in proper enclosure with high temps and correct humidity have the healthiest and most thriving tegus?

Mark was indeed knowledgeable but his info is out of date. That is fact and everyone has now changed their care standards to the up to date needs. I really don't know how else to put it. Also, I don't see how a monitor would survive in the care you've described in a fish tank with the temps and humidity you listed.


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## batmanjosh5000 (Feb 27, 2013)

TegusRawsome80 said:


> How do you know what happened to all his monitors? Go outside and take the temperature off of a piece of flat rock in your yard or something when the air temp is 105. The surface temp will likely exceed 130-140. I am talking about surface temps. Maybe Mark meant air temperature I don't know but what is important for monitor basking spots is surface temp of the object they are basking on.



Well i dont know for sure what happend, im trying to show that logically u can figure it out. If u beleive hes not evil or an idiot, u would absolutely beleive most of them lived full lives or he would be nice enough ans smart enough not to post a book showing how to kill monitors. And im assuming from the way u talk about him u dont think hes a lier, because he said in his book right infront of my face right now that one of his savs lived 14.5 years when he was talking about him. And as far as ur basking spot theory, that might be true, but i would think he was talking about surface temps because he didnt indicated otherwise, but he says abmient temps of 95 is good


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## TegusRawsome80 (Feb 27, 2013)

Did he get into anything about multi bulb basking spots?


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## tegus4life (Feb 27, 2013)

There definitely have been changes since he wrote the book, but I also think that if your sav died from supposedly perfectly replicating his care you obviously weren't doing something right... I suggest listening to the people and spending time making changes instead of spending all of your time arguing your point and trying to get people to think that you're right.


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## Ripkabird98 (Feb 27, 2013)

He was brilliant keeper... in HIS time. I respect him, and I know he was the go to guy for Savs when he wrote that book. Things have changed, we have learned more. I'm not saying he was lying, he was just going off the info at the time.


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## batmanjosh5000 (Feb 27, 2013)

TeguBuzz said:


> Can you post pics or something of the sort from the book where he says it is absurd to keep them at 130? Explain to me why it is that keepers who keep there savs in proper enclosure with high temps and correct humidity have the healthiest and most thriving tegus?
> 
> Mark was indeed knowledgeable but his info is out of date. That is fact and everyone has now changed their care standards to the up to date needs. I really don't know how else to put it. Also, I don't see how a monitor would survive in the care you've described in a fish tank with the temps and humidity you listed.



i Dont have a smart phone to get a pic but i can tell u the exact pages, Page 48 "Glass terraria are good for smaller younger monitor lizzards.", the bottom of page 53 talks about temps "the author has read online forums in ehich people advice keeping monitor lizzards at temeratures ranging from 130-150F. At 107f, animal tissue rapidly dehydrates. at 129f proteins begin to breakdown...... So why do some people keep their reptiles at such high temperatures? Because somebody told them to!" Humidity page 55 "comfortable humidity levels for the african monitor lizzard can be low to moderate; 20-50 percent is fine" If u dont beleive me look it up. And what do u mean u cant see how it could survive in these conditions? how do u know anything? have u performed a controlled experiment on both ways of care including a hypothesis, control group and expeimental group? i highly doubt it, we dont know anything we can just look at the ones who survived and learn from that


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## TegusRawsome80 (Feb 27, 2013)

No I've observed whose Savannahs died and whose survived. Those kept like yours tend to die. Those kept like Savannahmonitor.co's owners tend to survive. The end.


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## laurarfl (Feb 27, 2013)

Any reptile info published more than 5yrs ago is likely outdated (depending on the topic). Some much has changed so fast.


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## Deac77 (Feb 27, 2013)

I'd like to point out I'm in Texas and I've tested them temp of the rocks where collard lizards and whiptails will bask from WHERE I SEE THEM BASK to get a safe idea for my beardie the rocks are normally (at the time I see them basking) right at 120-130* here in Texas the air above them is usually in the 105-115 area I've done this countless times. Now I work with a lot of nurses from Africa (happens alot in a hospital lol) who claim there seen savs wild while growing up when it was less industrial and I've also asked about the climate there on unrelated topics because they don't care for reptiles like me haha and the high temp is usually the same as here where I live but more humid for being closer to the coast to me that would suggest I higher humidity than the 30% here and a basking surface temp of 120-130 but that's just my 2 cents


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## frost (Feb 27, 2013)

why would a sav get dehydrated from eco earth? not trying to start anything just curious.


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## SnakeCharmr728 (Feb 27, 2013)

Eco earth does not hold permanent burrows, even when mixed with sand. The highest humidity within a cage is deep inside the burrows constructed by varanids. Heres a tid bit of info on how monitors hydrate themselves and why it is so desperately important that they have a constant humidity written by a very good friend of mine as well as a long-term varanid keeper, Chad Lane. 

"A bit on dehydration and hydration of Varanids. Basking behavior and acclimating newly-acquired monitors have slopped over into comments on cage humidity, and it is not uncommon to hear of people soaking their animals to “rehydrate” them. It might be worth considering this as a separate issue, as there seem to be some misconceptions afoot.

Monitors can only acquire water by mouth (from food or by drinking). Unless they drink, soaking does not rehydrate them, as their skins are effectively impermeable to water. Notice that we humans, with a much thinner skin keratin layer, do not bloat from taking a bath. Raising the ambient humidity can reduce the rate of dehydration, but it cannot reverse it.

Monitors lose body water in feces (not much), by evaporation from their eyes (quite a bit), and by exhaling. Air inhaled by a monitor is almost always cooler than the animal’s body temperature. Even if that inhaled air is saturated (100% rh), the temperature increase will reduce the rh of the air in the lungs, and thus body water will be extracted to bring the lungful of air to saturation at the new temperature. When that air is exhaled, the body water goes with it, either all the way out of the body or at least as far as the nasal chamber. Some desert-adapted monitors (like V. griseus) have re-curved nasal passages that may help condense and trap exhaled water vapor, but this is absent in species from the wet tropics, and is never as fancy as the water traps in the noses of many desert mammals.

A monitor basking in a cage is inhaling hot, locally dry air, and losing body water each time it exhales. A monitor resting in a cooler part of the cage, especially in a mostly-enclosed burrow or box or hollow, is inhaling nearly saturated air that is at the same temperature as its body and thus it is not dehydrating as quickly. It is pretty likely that monitors are aware of differences in relative humidity at various potential hiding places within a cage.

Once they've eaten, monitors like nearly all reptiles will bask as long as they can to speed up digestion. While they're doing that (and not drinking), they are dehydrating. At the same time the proteins in their food are being digested, and the nitrogenous waste is being converted from ammonia at the cellular level to urea in the bloodstream to uric acid in the kidneys or cloaca. Urea is made of two ammonia molecules, and uric acid is made of two urea molecules, so at each step the concentration of the solution falls by half, and the available water is reabsorbed; above a certain concentration uric acid begins to crystallize out of solution, allowing recovery of almost all the metabolic water. This is why lizard (and bird) 'pee' is white and semisolid. The problem is that uric acid crystals are not easily dissolved once they form, and they plug up the works.

Dehydration is the number one single killer of all Varanids in Captivity."


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## laurarfl (Feb 28, 2013)

And it is a leading cause of chronic kidney disease in other reptiles as well.


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## frost (Feb 28, 2013)

thanks=] that was the info i was looking for, haha i thought i was gonna get a because i said so answer.


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## BatGirl1 (Feb 28, 2013)

Wow that was very enlightening.  thank you! 

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## HeatherN (Feb 28, 2013)

what a lovely post! thank you! i am much more confident in biological justifications for the care requirements of animals. a lot easier to trust compared to "why, because thats how it is and what other people say!"


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## batmanjosh5000 (Mar 1, 2013)

SnakeCharmr728 said:


> Eco earth does not hold permanent burrows, even when mixed with sand. The highest humidity within a cage is deep inside the burrows constructed by varanids. Heres a tid bit of info on how monitors hydrate themselves and why it is so desperately important that they have a constant humidity written by a very good friend of mine as well as a long-term varanid keeper, Chad Lane.
> 
> "A bit on dehydration and hydration of Varanids. Basking behavior and acclimating newly-acquired monitors have slopped over into comments on cage humidity, and it is not uncommon to hear of people soaking their animals to “rehydrate” them. It might be worth considering this as a separate issue, as there seem to be some misconceptions afoot.
> 
> ...


Thanks thos is informative! ya i think im gonna stay away from the eco eath and do a soil and sand mix, and if ur right about that they know wher humidity is then ill have have hides with moss inside since thers different opinions on humidity he'll have optins and decide wher he wants to go


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