# Albino/ Snow Tegu



## Guest (Jul 9, 2010)

Hey everyone let me know what you think. :shock:


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## juggernaut (Jul 9, 2010)

Where'd you get him?


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## Chuey (Nov 16, 2010)

I think you shouldn't albino a tegu....


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## chelvis (Nov 16, 2010)

Nice looking tegu, just watch the lighting with these guys. Too much light and UV can really damage their eye sight, then again too little and your flirting with MBD. I had a female albino, nasty temper and had to hand feed her.


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## VARNYARD (Nov 17, 2010)

There is no such thing as a snow tegu, they are all Albinos, and there is no such thing as an Albino tegu that is not already blind. They all are blind the day they hatch from the shell.


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## Wil (Nov 17, 2010)

VARNYARD said:


> There is no such thing as a snow tegu, they are all Albinos, and there is no such thing as an Albino tegu that is not already blind. They all are blind the day they hatch from the shell.



Are you saying that they are completely blind and can't see anything? If that is what you are saying then I would have to disagree.


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## VARNYARD (Nov 17, 2010)

What I am saying, is every one that I have known of has been 110% blind right out of the shell. Wil, you can disagree if you wish, but that is the facts. I do not know of one that is not blind.


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## Wil (Nov 17, 2010)

They are not 110% blind. What exactly are you basing your facts on?
Now am I saying that they have 20/20 vision? No, they don't. If anything I would compare them to being legally blind. There has to be some vision present to react to shadows and objects, but thats just my observations.


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## VARNYARD (Nov 17, 2010)

I had a guy argue about that point a while back, he said that his tegu seen his food. But he tried what I asked then agreed with me. I asked him to hold a rat on the outside of the glass, to see if his albino would try to take the rat through the glass. He did not, he could not see the food, and fed by smell only.

I would ask anyone that has one that they claim can see, to take the glass challenge, and make a video of an albino trying to take a rat through the glass, until then all that I have ever seen are in fact blind.


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## Wil (Nov 17, 2010)

That seems like an inconclusive test to me. I have tegus with normal sight that don't get that excited over food without the association of the smell. I have watched my albino react to my shadow and come towards a rake that I use to get the food dishes when I'm too lazy to go into the enclosure. I have seen him chase females around the enclosure. How can he do that if he is completely blind?


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## eddyjack (Nov 17, 2010)

Very nice tegu, can't figure arguing with Bobby Hill though. Don't know of anyone more knowledgable than Bobby, pretty sure he has devoted his life to these amazing critters. Non the less try the glass method and please let us know.


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## Wil (Nov 17, 2010)

Since when did stating ones observations and first hand experience become arguing? How exactly is the glass method going to prove anything when I already stated that he reacts to shadows? I have not nor will I ever claim that they have perfect vision, but I am also not going to say they are completely blind.


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## eddyjack (Nov 17, 2010)

Perhaps because Bobby told us that they react to smell? I'm just saying, try it, whats to hurt?


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## Wil (Nov 17, 2010)

All tegus react to smell.


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## eddyjack (Nov 17, 2010)

Have ya tried the glass method yet??? Cause if he can't smell it and can't SEE it, there ya go! If he try's to get it through the glass, well then you will be RIGHT!


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## eddyjack (Nov 17, 2010)

And PLEASE, let us know how it turns out.


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## Wil (Nov 17, 2010)

Let me try to explain myself a little better. The reason that the glass test doesn't prove anything is because of this: As stated earlier, their vision is not good, placing a food item outside of the glass just means they can't focus on or clearly see the item. By doing this there is no changes in shadows, which seems to be what they react to the most.
Basically, what your telling me is that if you take someone who is legally blind and put them behind a sheet of glass and wave a cheese burger in front of them and because they can't smell it and they can't tell that it is a cheeseburger you have in your hand, they are blind and can't see at all?


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## VARNYARD (Nov 17, 2010)

Well Wil, the tongue and jacobson organ are how they chase females and find food. 
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://chemistry.about.com/cs/medical/a/aa051601a.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://chemistry.about.com/cs/medical/a/aa051601a.htm</a><!-- m -->


> While snakes and other reptiles flick substances into Jacobson's organ with their tongues, several mammals (e.g., cats) exhibit the Flehmen reaction. When 'Flehmening', an animal appears to sneer as it curls its upper lip to better expose the twin vomeronasal organs for chemical sensing. In mammals, Jacobson's organ is used not simply to identify minute quantities of chemicals, but also for subtle communication between other members of the same species, through the emission and reception of chemical signals called pheromones.



Read this about garter snakes:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/w/watson-organ.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/w/watson-organ.html</a><!-- m -->



> The vomeronasal organ (VNO), or Jacobson's organ, is an auxiliary olfactory sense organ that is found in many animals. It was discovered by Frederik Ruysch and later by Ludwig Jacobson in 1813.[1]



<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson%27s_Organ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson%27s_Organ</a><!-- m -->



> The vomeronasal organ (VNO), or Jacobson's organ, is an auxiliary olfactory sense organ that is found in many animals. It was discovered by Frederik Ruysch and later by Ludwig Jacobson in 1813.[1]
> 
> During embryological development, it forms from the nasal (olfactory) placode, at the anterior edge of the neural plate (cranial nerve zero). It is a chemoreceptor organ which is completely separated from the nasal cavity the majority of the time, being enclosed in a separate bony or cartilaginous capsule which opens into the base of the nasal cavity. It is a tubular crescent shape and split into two pairs, separated by the nasal septum. It is the first processing stage of the accessory olfactory system, after which chemical stimuli go to the accessory olfactory bulb, then to targets in the amygdala and hypothalamus.
> 
> ...



I will also say this, creating albino basking lizards and gators is nothing but 110% wrong anyway. It is not right to breed to try to get handicap animals, it is sad that these animals must suffer for profit.


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## eddyjack (Nov 17, 2010)

Op! Your right! My bad! So sorry, please proceed.


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## eddyjack (Nov 17, 2010)

As I say, don't argue with the professional, and the professional is VarnYard


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2010)

Sorry for butting in but eddy i dont think you are included in the conversation. I have no experience with albinos but a mans observations are his own aren't they? lol


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## VARNYARD (Nov 17, 2010)

This is by the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists, here is what the Jacobson organ is used for, finding food and mating:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.jstor.org/pss/1444018" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.jstor.org/pss/1444018</a><!-- m -->


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## Guest (Nov 17, 2010)

I would of thought we were all included in the conversation.. That`s what this is about ...


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## VARNYARD (Nov 17, 2010)

montana said:


> I would of thought we were all included in the conversation.. That`s what this is about ...



Everyone is welcome here as long as it is kept civil.


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## eddyjack (Nov 17, 2010)

Well "B" Crazy! if it's a PRIVATE conversation then perhaps thats what "PM" or PRIVATE MESSAGE would be for! Otherwise.............


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## Wil (Nov 17, 2010)

And do they use that same organ to smell shadows? Also if you have never had one how do you know they suffer? Wouldn't a suffering animal act differently and not carry on with the same behaviors that they normally would? 
The statement that they suffer is your opinion which everyone is entitled to. Just because someone believes it to be true doesn't make it a fact. Albinism isn't a handicap in the way your portraying it to be. Albinism is a genetic mutation of the alleles, it is a handicap for wild animals though as they are easy targets for predators. 
And if you think I have an albino strictly for profit you are way off base. I have one most of all because I like them. If you don't agree with it there is nothing I can do or say to change that.
Oh and by the way do you honestly think I don't know what the jacobson organ is?


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## eddyjack (Nov 17, 2010)

:-D As said before, you are right!


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## VARNYARD (Nov 17, 2010)

eddyjack said:


> Well "B" Crazy! if it's a PRIVATE conversation then perhaps thats what "PM" or PRIVATE MESSAGE would be for! Otherwise.............



Did you see my post above? We will keep it civil here, personal attacks are not needed, this goes for everyone.

Albinism is a handicap for any sun loving creature, including us. Wil, you need to learn about Albinism and the Jacobson organ. As for your admission of your animal seeing shadows, is this the same as a normal tegu? No, it is a handicap, just as it is in people that are also, as you say legally blind. Is it fair to create an animal knowing beforehand that it will not be 100% normal? Where are the morals in the reptile world, are they just all gone?


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## Wil (Nov 17, 2010)

What exactly do I need to learn about the jacobson organ? I know what it is and what it is used for. It is how a komodo tracks a dying cape buffalo or how reptiles pick up the pheromones of a receptive female. 

I also have a fairly good grasp on the concepts of genetics.

And no, the definition of albinism isn't handicap. The handicap of vision is caused by the albinism. And I don't recall calling him normal. 

Are you questioning my morality? Do I not have the right to prove or disprove any of these claims that are always floating around. Maybe your right, maybe I don't have any morals or integrity, let me look on my DD214 and see what it says. Out of curiosity, what does yours say?

I do have another question though. Didn't you start producing tegus only 2 years before me?


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## tora (Nov 17, 2010)

Just because they aren't acting any different doesn't mean they're not suffering. Most animals try their hardest to ignore it and live life as normal. I had a dog with a bad liver for a little bit and she seemed as happy as could be till the day she passed. Lizards show even less emotion than a dog would. It is hard wired to bask, even if it causes discomfort. It's not going to hide in the shadows and slowly die just because that's it's only other option. 

I know it would sure suck living sensitive to bright light (at times I already am, I get some killer headaches from it), and I don't even like the sun, lol.


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## Wil (Nov 17, 2010)

You are right Tora, reptiles mask many things that they may suffer from. All that I can speak of is my own experiences. My albino is almost never basking in direct sunlight and if he does it is for short periods, but then again most all of my tegus do that. They all are pretty inactive during the hottest parts of the day, but then again that is what my tegu do.
There are a lot of people in the reptile trade that just see the animals as a way to make money. There are a lot of dishonest people that thrive by ripping people off, always has been and always will be.
I guess my whole point of this back and forth has been that everyone has their own opinions and I respect that, just give me the same courtesy. I know a lot of people look at things with emotion, I tend to look at things from an analytical standpoint and like to have tangible proof of things, usually the only way to do that is to do it yourself. Everything that I have said has been my observations which is the best way to learn from the animals you work with. That way I am not bound to a "care sheet" or how someone else does things. Just like I don't expect anyone to do things the way I do them, because if I am wrong that responsibility should fall upon me and nobody else. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong, but until that time, one way or the other, I stand behind my observations.


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## VARNYARD (Nov 18, 2010)

You asked me how your tegu bred and chased females, I explained that it is by his Jacobson organ. If you knew about the Jacobson organ, then why did you ask how he can do it being blind?

With albinism animals and humans do not have normal vision. Albinism is associated with a number of vision defects, such as photophobia, nystagmus and astigmatism. These defects are found in animals from birth or from hatching. However animals with Albinism also have no melanin or color pigmentation in the eye that would protect the eye from bright light, as found with (UVB) this too causes more problems with an animal dealing with being an albino. 

The lack of skin pigmentation makes the animal more susceptible to sunburn and skin cancers. Because individuals with albinism have skin that partially or entirely lacks the dark pigment melanin, which helps protect the skin from ultraviolet radiation, their skin can burn more easily from overexposure. As with dogs cats and a whole host of other animals, deafness is also found to be a problem when dealing with Albinism. Albinism is a genetic defect, it is not something that should be sought after, or treasured as a gift.

Albinism is a handicap, regardless of the type of animal or human, you can choose not to see it or except the facts. Either way, they are not living a normal life, nor can they when they are not a normal healthy animal.

I will not condone breeding handicap animals, or inbreeding, really there is no excuse for it, regardless who you are. Your animal is handicapped, you can turn a blind eye to that fact, or make excuses why it is OK to breed them, but in the end that is the facts. 

Albino tegus, iguanas, monitors and gators are created for profit, there is no excuse for breeding these animals, except monetary gain. It is not my opinion, it is the way it is.

You claim to know about Albinism, then why not admit to these facts about Albinism?

This is not going to turn into a personal attack, and I am not attacking you. If you want to make this personal, then be warned I will not allow it here. I am stating the facts of why Albinism should be avoided at all costs. You say it is based on opinion, it is not based on opinion at all, it is based on the facts of life with these animals. They are a handicap, and will never live a normal life as a normal healthy tegu does, fact, not opinion.


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## chelvis (Nov 18, 2010)

Wow boys calm down, Just gonna through in my two cents in albinos here.

I had a female albino named Ally who i too thought had decent vision. I would hold a mouse out for her and she would hit it on the second try with little problem. My norml blue who i know has great vision often misses but i think his jsut lazy. But every time i gave her ground meat or fe her out of a bowl the tounge would flicker like crazy and she would look like she was tracking the smell. Now my male on the other hand see the bowl gets to the bowl flicks his tounge once on the food, aggress its food and eats it. 

Now i remember Bobby telling me about the rat test cause he mentioned all albinos are blind. So i pulled my male out, they lived togeather in the off season and i didnt want him hinting that there is food. She enough a few mintues later i came back with a rat dangled it behind the glass and nothing, she just kept basking and this was on a feeding day.

My male Bosco loves to chase around a laser pointer i have of the cat, it makes the shape of a dragon fly so its a fairly large spot. he'll chase it aorund outside the enclosure or inside. I tried the same with ally before i sold her (to someone who had albion tegus in the past and wanted one, i had a few people back out when i told them about her vision... dont blame them). She didn't even notice it. 

As for shadows are they from you walking by or someone entering or leaving a room, becuase all though Ally im sure could not see, her hearing was amamazing. If my gerbil was running thorugh his cage (no wheel to noise to sleep too) she would **** her head in the direction of the noice. So maybe yours isnt seeing shadows but hearing the changes the make these shadows... who knows though.

Just my notes on one single albino animal, you'd have to test hundreds to get a deff answer.


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## eddyjack (Nov 18, 2010)

So.............how bout that weather out there? Can ya believe it?


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2010)

Up here we got snow up to the balls on a tall Indian ...


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## eddyjack (Nov 18, 2010)

Ha ha Ha Ha Ha ha!! Snow is here as of today!!! My Tegu can't decide what to do, eat and stay up for a couple day's or just say screw it n go to sleep!


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## chelvis (Nov 18, 2010)

I am in San Diego mountain area and they are talkin bout snow this weekend... gonna be another long winter by the looks of it.


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## Wil (Nov 18, 2010)

I never once asked how he bred, never even said that he bred. I said "chase" not seek out but chase. His reactions to my shadow and the rake was all outside. And when he was chasing the female he wasn't flicking his tongue so how exactly was he using the jacobson organ?

I have not once denied the fact about his vision either. So I am a little confused on what you want me to admit to about albinism. Albinism is a recessive trait that can be found in any animal. How is it possible that there has been adult albino animals found in the wild? Seems to me that they must have been living a pretty normal life, the fact that albinos don't normally survive in the wild isn't because of the handicap that has been stated in this thread, it is because of the handicap of not being able to blend into the surroundings. It makes them easy prey for predators and lousy at catching prey if they are not herbivorous.

I don't need to make excuses because whether or not I breed any albino is my decision and my decision alone. if someone doesn't agree with it they have the choice not to look at them or purchase them. Nobody can judge the morally of anything with the exception of 1, everyone else's views are just opinions, and that is a fact. And not everyone is in it just for the profit, but if profit wasn't a factor in breeding everyone would sell enough to meet their expenses of the collection and give away the rest. If anyone were to disagree I would have to throw a BS flag.

I consider this more of a debate, wouldn't you? You are stating your side and providing reasons to back it up, just as well as I am. 



VARNYARD said:


> I will not condone breeding handicap animals, or inbreeding, really there is no excuse for it, regardless who you are. Your animal is handicapped, you can turn a blind eye to that fact, or make excuses why it is OK to breed them, but in the end that is the facts.
> 
> Albino tegus, iguanas, monitors and gators are created for profit, there is no excuse for breeding these animals, except monetary gain. It is not my opinion, it is the way it is.
> 
> This is not going to turn into a personal attack, and I am not attacking you. If you want to make this personal, then be warned I will not allow it here. I am stating the facts of why Albinism should be avoided at all costs. You say it is based on opinion, it is not based on opinion at all, it is based on the facts of life with these animals. They are a handicap, and will never live a normal life as a normal healthy tegu does, fact, not opinion.



Somebody sent me a link that I thought I would share. I found it just a tad hypocritical.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-80877.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/ ... 80877.html</a><!-- m -->


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## Toby_H (Nov 19, 2010)

I'm personally very fond of the appearance of a white Tegu... but there are 'cons' to that 'pro' which I have to consider...


Wil, although I see your point that 'the glass test' will not be 'all inclusive', I would be interested to see/hear/read the results of this test with your Albino. I hope you try it out and share the results.

Another 'test' you could try is to tie a string to a ball (or other object) and throw the ball at the Tegu, ensuring the string will stop the ball from actually hitting the Tegu. While 'the glass test' would require the albino to see well enough to identify the rat as food, this 'ball' test would only require the albino to tell there is something flying at his head. You will likely want to perform this test on a normal Tegu as well as I've never thrown anything at my Tegu so I'm not sure what the 'normal' response whould be...


I understand that a lack of melanin makes Tegus (or any albino) vulnerable to sunburn, skin cancer and other issues related to sunlight (or artificial supplements). 

But I wonder if... due to the vulnerability to UVB, do they get the full volume of what they need from the sun (or artificial supplement) through far shorter exposure to the sun (or artificial supplements)?

So could a weaker UVB kept farther from the albino animal give them what they need, while not being great enough to harm them?


I give great value to the facts Bobby (and others) have shared, but I do not believe that a single all enclusive conclusion is the only responsible conclusion that can be drawn. I look forward to further discussion on this topic and hope that both 'sides' remain respectful enough for it to continue.


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## JohnMatthew (Nov 20, 2010)

> Somebody sent me a link that I thought I would share. I found it just a tad hypocritical.
> <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/</a><!-- m --> ... 80877.html



That post is over 4 years old. I don't see it as hypocritical as we all have the right to change our minds and views as time passes and new information becomes available. Do you still feel the same way about everything now as you did 4 years ago?

An interesting topic and one people are very passionate about so let's try to keep it clean, arguing your point not your person. Does anybody disagree that albino tegus hatch out with obvious handicaps be they eye or skin problems? I'd also like to see further tests done on these animals. It seems the majority of them do poorly compared to normal tegus so I don't really see the point in continued breeding but that's just my opinion.


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## eddyjack (Nov 20, 2010)

Yep! It's snowin to beat the band here tonight.


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## chris allen (Nov 20, 2010)

JohnMatthew said:


> > Somebody sent me a link that I thought I would share. I found it just a tad hypocritical.
> > <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/</a><!-- m --> ... 80877.html
> 
> 
> ...


The majority do poorly? Id love to know where some of these "opinions" come from. I'm not at home right now, but i would love to get into this a bit further once i am.


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## JohnMatthew (Nov 20, 2010)

You took it out of context.. compared to normal tegus who typically hatch with no sight or light sensitivity issues is this statement wrong?


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## JohnMatthew (Nov 20, 2010)

My opinion is that I would not breed them myself if I were even capable and like you I reserve the right to keep that opinion if I so choose. I also welcome you to try and change it as I will keep an open mind to any and all evidence presented.


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## Wil (Nov 20, 2010)

Toby_H said:


> I'm personally very fond of the appearance of a white Tegu... but there are 'cons' to that 'pro' which I have to consider...
> 
> 
> Wil, although I see your point that 'the glass test' will not be 'all inclusive', I would be interested to see/hear/read the results of this test with your Albino. I hope you try it out and share the results.
> ...



Hey Toby,
I can pretty much tell you if the "glass" method would work or not. I really don't think that he would respond at all. Also the ball idea is not a bad idea, but since I don't believe his vision is good at all I don't think that would work either. You would have to have pretty good vision to move from a ball flying at you. 

As far as the UV goes, I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on the amounts and requirements of UV. More important than UV is that the animal receives usable calcium. There is a lot of usable calcium derived from bone and marrow. I remember when FR from Goanna Ranch had some of his ackie's blood calcium tested and the levels were normal, funny thing is he doesn't use UV bulbs on them at all, just incandescent bulbs.

I am pretty sure that more albinos have succumbed to D3 poisoning or inadequate diet then cancer or vision problems.


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## chris allen (Nov 20, 2010)

JohnMatthew said:


> My opinion is that I would not breed them myself if I were even capable and like you I reserve the right to keep that opinion if I so choose. I also welcome you to try and change it as I will keep an open mind to any and all evidence presented.


Your opinion is yours, and you have every right to it. I'm not here to try to change that. Hopefully though yours is based on information that you, yourself, has gathered and come to determine what you feel is correct.....nobody else. 


I had a trio of blues from Ron back in 2003. The price of the albino I believe was right around $600. This is drastically less than what babies have sold for more recently. If anyone here considers investment quality, albino blues are up there. Like it or not, they are highly sought after and pretty valuable. That baby acted no different than the other babies, and in pictures I have you can clearly see it is by no means smaller or weaker, or inferior at all to the other babies. Had it been 110% blind do you think it would have been able to compete with the others for the crickets/food they got? Would it have thrived just as the others? Would chasing crickets for a baby albino that was 110% blind even be an option? 

The male I have now is a great animal. He is approximately 5 years old and is a super animal. Honestly, its structure and build are better than most of the other tegus I have including my big black and whites. He not only looks great, but acts great as well. I read a bit that Chuey wrote earlier, and how his girlfriend understands and can tell when their reptiles need something, or something is wrong. If this animal was in pain, and suffering, I would know it....thats a fact. Even though reptiles(just as most animals) will try to mask a disease or injury, if you understand your animals you can read them and usually see this. 

My current albino spent most of the summer outside here at the jersey shore and loved every minute of it. Did he act lethargic or not eat.....NO. Did he hide or burrow and stay out of the sun at all times(even though he probably could have and would have been able to digest and survive staying in he shade)....NO. Did he get any type of skin damage or other injuries from being outsided....NO. The fact is he did extremely well. The fact is he basked when he chose, ate well, lived a normal tegu life and probably loved every minute of it. 

It was mentioned about many tests would have to be done to come to a final conclusion on their eyesight.....absolutely. You can't determine if all albino tegus are 110% blind by doing a single "glass test" to one or two tegus. 

Bobby, how many albino tegus have you actually studied or observed? Is there any statistical information somewhere that backs up your OPINION? 

Then to read about morals. Or my lack thereof I should say. Do you honestly think I am immorral because I choose to own an albino tegu? Because I think they are amazing looking animals? That Bobby, IS a personal attack on all of us that choose to have a different opinion than you. Whether or not this is your website, is it really ok for you to put others down for thinking differently? For choosing to like something maybe that you disagree with, we are now lacking morals? 

I have many strong opinions, but I am not going to force them onto someone else. Often times I could sit here and criticize or put down lots of choices people make....from sales tactics to breeding methods to animals produced. But the reality of it is that Bobby will choose to do what he wants, just as I will. If you really think that the reptile industry has no morals, or that things have drastically changed....you either shouldn't be in this hobby or you haven't been in it long enough. 

That link posted above where Bobby inquires about the het albino female blues and asks if they are argentines.......well, I was a little surprised when I saw that after reading his strong opinions on albinism in sun loving creatures. What exactly would change that or what new information is around now that wasn't 4 years ago? 

This can absolutely be a constructive discussion, but geez......leave my morals out of it. 

Chris Allen


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## chris allen (Nov 20, 2010)

Here are a couple pictures.


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## Wil (Nov 20, 2010)

Well put Chris. That is part of what I have been trying to point out. Opinions are every free thinking persons right, I myself have many opinions, but I don't try to force them onto people or try to "change" their minds about their opinion if it is different from my own.

I did find a video that I would love for anyone to argue that this albino iguana doesn't react to its keepers hand, it is at around the 1:20 point of the video.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDDNYkHNjYE&feature=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDDNYkHN ... re=related</a><!-- m -->


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## chris allen (Nov 20, 2010)

One more.


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## chris allen (Nov 20, 2010)

So from the pictures posted, do any of those animals look unhealthy? Actually, looking at it now, the baby albino looks like it was probably the biggest of the group. Odd.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2010)

Wil i have an idea for an experiment that might work? So like, have your basking bulb be one of those black bulbs or red bulbs that reptiles can't see and when he/she goes to bask, turn off the UVB bulb and see if it reacts. Wouldn't it theoretically be just like you or me being outside and everything suddenly goes dark? Just saying as a possible experiment.


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## Wil (Nov 20, 2010)

Thats not a bad idea, but there are some problems with it. One is that when lights go out most tegus hide and sleep. The only true way to try and prove or disprove their vision would have to be performed by an optometrist on several albino animals.


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## chelvis (Nov 20, 2010)

Sorry just a question about the D3 posioning and montiors with UV. I thought i was widely excepted that most monitor speices do fine without any UVB. I mean there are tails of monitors growing from hatchlings to adults with no UV lighting what so ever. The thought is their skin is too think to allow UV to penitrate and for D3 to be made so they either get it from their diet or make it some otherway. The cases of MBD in monitors comes are almost always ca defficancy when someone is cutting corners and feeding them a bad diet.

We know in tegus UV is very important. Raise a hatchling without UV and u'll almost always get MBD, their are enough owners here that have had this happen with their tegus even after feeding a varied and well managed diet, and i dont mean the one Bobby has, not that it is bad i just dont like the idea of ground turkey to reptiles. So tegus need UV there is no doubt in my mind on that.

As for D3 posining, hoe would that happen unless their is too much being offered in food. If you say an albino over produces it becuase there is no pigment is that not a handiecap becuase a normal blue does not appear to have that problem?

Chris i have to admit your albinos look healthy and in the right hads an albino tegu just like an albino alligator can thrive. And yes they make a great investment, i mean underground sold their offspring for $1200. I mean other reptiles and animals are breed for traits that are negative, so albino tegus are just another that could be added to the list.


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## Wil (Nov 20, 2010)

UV doesn't have to penetrate skin, rather it is absorbed by the skin, beginning the process of the production of D3. Therefore I wouldn't think the thickness of the skin would make a difference. And there are discussions of UV and monitor care going on to this day. 

Now am I saying that UV isn't beneficial? No, not at all, I am just saying that it is helpful but not the fix to calcium deficiencies. Most all cases of MBD is calcium related. How exactly is UV going to correct anything if the source of the problem isn't corrected? 

And as far as the D3 poisoning, I am referring to people overdosing their animals by supplements.

How long does anyone think that a hatchling would survive without any UV exposure?


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## chelvis (Nov 20, 2010)

Well we talking monitor or tegu. And the thickness of the skin has alot to do with any aborbtion. A savahana monitor hide is more like leather with the outter layers of skin be made up of dead skin cells, UV has to penetrate through this layer before it can hit cells that will react with it. Just like bone skudes on an alligator (which do not need UV to grow or thrive as seen on alligator farms) this dead cells can act like a block. Now i know reptiles shed their skins but not all their dead cells come off in one sheet. And different scales have been known to allow different wave lenghts in. A professor at my school studied light aborbtion on different igunana speices to see if there is a reason for their coloring and was surprised when the igunanas scales aborbed different light waves than that of anoles. Now im not saying this is proof of anything, just saying that different scale structure could be a reason why monitors tend to do better with less UV than tegus. 

OK i unerstand where u getting with the D3 poisoning there. 

I still disagree with MBD being calcium defficancy in tegus. Alot of owners on here calcuim dust everything for young tegus and then go on to whole foods. All good sources of calcium. I've seen plenty of times where its the UV light hasnt been changed in months or is too far away or not use at all. Im not saying its not enough UV just many none is reaching the animal. No UV means no D3 being made which means little to no calcium is being absorbed.


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## JohnMatthew (Nov 21, 2010)

> Your opinion is yours, and you have every right to it. I'm not here to try to change that. Hopefully though yours is based on information that you, yourself, has gathered and come to determine what you feel is correct.....nobody else.



All I can tell from your pictures is that your albino seems to have good weight. My opinion still stands that albino tegus have problems and I can't support breeding an animal when it's know before the eggs even hatch that the odds are against its leading a normal existence. Does anybody refute that these animals are born with skin/eye irritations? I think the argument lies in the extent of these "handicaps".

These videos only demonstrate the sight problems we're discussing. There are precious few videos of albino tegus or I'm bad at searching.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRyHj_WStl4&has_verified=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRyHj_WS ... verified=1</a><!-- m --> around 0:18
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huuhXIyD-jk&feature=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huuhXIyD ... re=related</a><!-- m --> around 1:37

I do hope it stays civil as I think this is an important topic that needs to be discussed and the more information the better.


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## chris allen (Nov 21, 2010)

I would personally rather watch someone with a tad bit more experience explaining some about albinism and sun loving creatures. 

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spCNx_PJ9qE&feature=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spCNx_PJ ... re=related</a><!-- m -->

Now, I'm not saying that I know for sure what type of vision the albinos I have dealt with personally exactly have. But, I am telling you from my personal experience that a baby albino tegu can act just as normal as a non albino and same goes for an adult. 


Those of us that have them are not looking for or need your support. If you don't like them you don't have to buy one, but like I said they are not common and highly valuable. 

So, having said that.....JohnMatthew, what is your personal experience with them? How many? What ages? 

Your opinion stands....I get that and respect that. What then is the point of the discussion if you have no direct experience to comment on? We can all do our research and post links to videos all day long, or copy and paste till the sun don't shine....but really if we are not comparing my experiences to yours, where can we really take the discussion? 

We can hear they are weak, or blind, unhealthy, handicapped....yet I show pictures to show differently. I offer my experience with them to back up my opinion.....all really because I was lumped into a group of people considered to be immoral. 

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. If we are only going to discuss though our opinions, it really can't lead to anything but an arguement, which is not why I am here. 

Chris Allen


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## Wil (Nov 21, 2010)

For everyone who does not support the breeding of albinos, I am guessing that you also don't support an albino person marrying and having children either. What about someone who is deaf or blind which is genetic? What about MS or any other genetic disorder for that matter? Maybe all Rh negative people should not be allowed to have children because it has been proven that when 2 negative Rh are combined it can cause birth defects.

Now, through debate, everyone who has a strong opinion of not breeding anything with any type of "handicap" as it's been put, would have to have the same views as above.

Just my observation and opinion.


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## tora (Nov 21, 2010)

That's not even comparable. Pairing for love is different then paring for profit or eyecandy. People know what they are signing up for, and if they have a handicapped baby then that's their decision. They shouldn't be stopped from having a child because it wont be as strong genetically as a normal baby. Tegu's don't choose their mate, or breed out of love, or have the need to have a bond with a child. Now, if they were selling their albino children for the price of a car, then yeah they should not be allowed to make babies.


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## Wil (Nov 21, 2010)

Ok. Now who's to say that I have an albino just for profit or "eye candy"? If it is morally correct for people to knowingly have a handicapped child or a child that may not survive then how is it not moral to breed albinos? If I know that their vision isn't perfect and anyone who buys one is informed of that fact then where does the question of a lack of morals come into play?

Couldn't the same things be argued about beef? The cows don't choose who they are going to breed, they don't breed out of love, yet they are produced only to be butchered for meat and leather. Should we start questioning the farmer's morals? No, because people have a choice to eat meat or be vegetarians. Same thing with albinos, individuals need to make their own choice and decisions.

The biggest problem I have with all of this is that some people would judge my character based upon what I breed. Sounds a little like that guy with the funny mustache to me. I judge people by their actions and the words they speak far more than what they have in their collection.


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## tora (Nov 21, 2010)

If it isn't for profit, then you wouldn't be breeding them. If you were breeding them just to share the joys of a pretty lizard with people, then they wouldn't cost any more than you're average tegu. I also said nothing about morals, so don't put words in my mouth. Just because it's not something I'd personally get into doesn't mean I think you're a terrible person. Anyway, the same could be said about beef in a way, but we were talking about people. But if you want to get into that too, cows are a prey animal, they would be hunted by other animals anyway. So what if people mass produce to keep up with the demand. I don't get what you're trying to say with the vegetarian/meateater comment. We are doing what comes natural to us, being omnivores and all. Like I said, whether it be in a farm or an open field, cows would be killed anyway. Would two albino tegus naturally pick out each other to make babies with? No. Now, hormones and whatnot I don't agree with but I think that's a bit off topic. Again, stop talking like I'm questioning your morals. I'm not. But what other reason is there for breeding a handicapped lizard (when I say handicapped, I'm not implying that the animal is completely helpless and weak, I just mean it's not USUALLY as able as a normal tegu), other than for eye candy or profit? Personally, for me it's not a lack of morals, but more so a lack of respect for the animal. Last thing I'd want to do is breed an animal to not be the amazing creature it is out in the wild. Like I said though, that's my stand on it. Don't all go and put more words in my mouth. :shock:

I think you'd be better off comparing this breeding to dogs if anything. A LOT of breeds genes are prone to certain diseases or ailments, but they just keep on going. Why? You tell me. I apparently don't understand it.

If it's not for looks, if it's not for profit, then why?


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## eddyjack (Nov 21, 2010)

Cow's you say? I've raised a lot of cow's!


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## eddyjack (Nov 21, 2010)

Montana, you know anything about cow's?


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## Wil (Nov 21, 2010)

Tora,
I wasn't directing any of that to you personally. I was just using that as another standpoint in which to point out something that you did pick up on. I didn't think you were judging me at all, just as I am not judging you for your opinions. So basically if I can't use any of these posts to continue a discussion then there really wasn't a discussion to begin with.

When it comes right down to it, I am not trying to change anyones mind here. It isn't my place to do that, never has been. Everyones opinion and thoughts are their own. Personally, I don't care what people breed, or how they live their life. What I do care about is being told how I should live mine.

And again, Tora, I was not posting anything directly to you. I was just using your post as a "soapbox". There was nothing personal meant by it, because believe me if there was you would have certainly known it. So, sorry if I came off as singling you out, that wasn't the intention.


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## Wil (Nov 21, 2010)

I also forgot to point out an important fact. I haven't produced any albinos, and if I don't ever produce any is fine with me. I am not hinging my whole production on one albino.


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## eddyjack (Nov 21, 2010)

Tora is right, perhaps the dog would be a much better comparison. Dogs are very useful in many breeds however, some breeds are created with nothing but vanity in mind and unfortunately with vanity comes greed and exploitation. Thus making easy target for all those with their own belief's, right or wrong depending on your own personal opinion.

1. I have seen many different species of animal exploited for nothing more than personal monatary gain. :twisted: 2. I have also seen many different species of animal treated very well and with the utmost of respect. :-D I prefer the second! :fc 

At the end of every day we are stewards of every species of animal on this earth. We are all accountable for the treatment and care of these animals. Most of us are on this site due to our passion for our animals and those of others. How many threads do we see (just on this site) that are about a animal that someone has rescued? In a sense, I resued my Tegu. Not that the individual that had her was abusive or neglegent, I believe he simply did not know the proper way to keep this animal. Could he have learned? Certainly! But instead he chose to find a good home for the animal. That is one way to act responsibly. 

It does not matter who you are, if you keep an animal and you take proper care of it then praise be you. If not, well the consequences are yours, not anyone elses. And that includes all the invaluable information that we get from this site. With an open mind I peruse this information, sometimes with disagreement (such as some things said in this very forum) non the less with an open mind, sometimes I get to correct my own thinking by realizing that I WAS WRONG. 

I have heard of other sites that allow putting others down, I am glad that does not happen here. Passion sometimes is mistaken for anger, even disrespect to some degree. I do not like text as it is missing a very key ingredient in communication and that is the feel or sense of one's true intent or emotion. Text can seem harsh and often it provides illusion from the true way a person feels or see's something.

All opinions are valuable, what we do with an opinion once delivered to us is important. 

I'm gonna go shovel snow now :bolt


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## Toby_H (Nov 21, 2010)

I fully respect Wil's approach at defending himself from earlier accusations of being "immoral" for wanting to keep/breed Albino Tegus. 

Albinos do seem to have special needs or additional needs, but it seems when those needs are provided for, they live as happy of a live as their 'wild type' captive counterparts.

I see no harm, much less any moral issues, with breeding an animal that has special or additional needs. Many keepers as well as breeders pride themselves in keeping a species that are hard to keep or breed. Keeping a morph that is hard to keep isn't any different.

Propogating a morph that cannot sustain itself in the wild is a moot point, as it would be "immoral" to release captive specimen back to the wild. 

From everything I have seen and exsperienced, breeding 'exotic' animals is a bad business for someone who is simply money hungry. People almost exclusively get into breeding such animals out of interest int he animals themselves. Then they try to modify their hobby to pay for itself, every once in a while finding an angle to earn a living. I think we should applaud those who do, not criticize them.

Those who understand the process of breeding animals with a recessive gene will understand there are additional steps required to produce them, so it only makes sense they would cost more.


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## Chuey (Nov 22, 2010)

This is definitely a polarized subject where both sides will never be in agreement. Can it be dropped already and the thread locked? Personally I try my best to be matter of fact about it all. 

I wouldn't actively try to breed albinism in a reptile or anything for that matter. But that said, so long as their is a supply and demand curve for albinos it will never go away. Most of the presentable albino anythings that I have seen generally look healthy and are extremely well cared for because they are worth a mint besides other reasons. I can't say that any albino keeper doesn't genuinely love their albino as much as I do my regular critters. 

Like Ben Siegel's albino nile in his shop down in Florida. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1sFVKFWeGI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1sFVKFWeGI</a><!-- m -->

Gorgeous creature and healthy! Going rate for him was $10,000. There's only a couple in the states. But I don't think Ben was looking to sell. He tried to also sell us an albino ball python, another gorgeous creature. Itjust wasn't for us. Anyway so long as there is supply and demand it won't change. And its the keepers job to care for them the best they can. Anyhow looking at all his reptiles in his shop and in the back of his shop, there was zero doubt in my mind that he knew what he was doing. We had him ship a leucistic white sided rat snake to us, gorgeous little animal. Whose to say that isn't wrong I don't know. 

I usually get more angry about knucklehead rep keepers who don't take responsibility to care for their animals properly. Or who try to dump them or trade them like baseball cards.


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