# update



## jwax17 (Dec 8, 2011)

crazy color in him


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## Sirhc401 (Dec 8, 2011)

Oh wow. I like that tail. Nice black and white contrast. It's pretty. Good looking tegu


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## jwax17 (Dec 9, 2011)

Sirhc401 said:


> Oh wow. I like that tail. Nice black and white contrast. It's pretty. Good looking tegu



thanks hopefully the contrast get greater with age


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## HPIZZLE (Dec 9, 2011)

how big is he?
looks great.


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## boyd1955 (Dec 10, 2011)

Ummm ... That's a black and white tegu ... A beautiful black and white tegu ... Be happy he'll be great to have around ... But don't believe all this hybrid crap


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## james.w (Dec 10, 2011)

boyd1955 said:


> Ummm ... That's a black and white tegu ... A beautiful black and white tegu ... Be happy he'll be great to have around ... But don't believe all this hybrid crap



Why do you insist on saying there is no such thing as hybrids? Do you believe there are red and blue tegus?


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## teguboy77 (Dec 10, 2011)

Thats a nice NORMAL black and white tegu awsome colors,and theres 
definitely hybrid tegus in my opinion.


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## TeguBuzz (Dec 10, 2011)

Boyd, I find your comments hysterical at times. It looks like a real high white black and white, but as teguboy77 stated, I too insist that there are hybrids.


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## james.w (Dec 10, 2011)

The tegu the OP posted is his All American that he got from Bobby. An All American, once again is 1/2 Extreme Giant, 1/4 red, and 1/4 blue. It is in FACT a hybrid, the name has nothing to do with where it is from, it has to do with the colors.


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## boyd1955 (Dec 11, 2011)

But James as we all know ... Tegu's are polymorphous ... Just because you mate a blue and a red and a big one, there is NO telling what is going to come out ... It just doesn't work like that because we just don't know their lineage very far back at all ... This is why we are seeing so much nonsense on these boards ... The guy has mated whatever and what has come out is a very normal ( but obviously very attractive ) black and white tegu ... Nothing different to him than any other black and white tegu ... There are no colours in that photograph are there ? ... Or have I got sight problems ( no actually I have got my glasses on ) ... I'm not being awkward ... Like I say ... Lovely tegu ... Black and White
I think I'm going to put some pictures of Boomer up and see what interesting theories we get about what he is )


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## james.w (Dec 11, 2011)

There is one problem with what you are saying. We know what the parents of this tegu are, therefore we know it is a hybrid.


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## teguboy77 (Dec 11, 2011)

james.w said:


> There is one problem with what you are saying. We know what the parents of this tegu are, therefore we know it is a hybrid.
> Well if you breed two tegus saying male is larger than normal and a blk/wht/argentine,female red large female,that to me is a hybrid and if both parents are larger tegus then i think they will produce redxblk large offspring or should by genetics of the parents in my opinion,and again i think theres hybrids.


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## boyd1955 (Dec 11, 2011)

You can call it a hybrid as much as you like ... Its just a plain old black and white tegu ... Its just like all this blue nonsense ... They are mating blues and of course not getting what they were expecting
Vanguard on here put it quite nicely 
" Tegus are polymorphic, meaning in tegus they are known for occurring in several forms and there are no set rules as for color or pattern. Normal tegus, red tegus, giant tegus and blue tegus can range from very dark to very light in color, and they can show whites, blacks, grays, yellows, reds, oranges, blues and even greens in the color. These all can also occur in the same clutch within siblings.
So all though, black and white are the primary color in normal Argentines, red, blacks and grays in reds, blue, black and browns in blues, creams, whites, grays and blacks in giants, many other colors may also occur as well. Same is true when it comes to pattern. You might breed two very dark tegus and get some very light ones, or breed very light ones and get dark ones, there are no set colors in tegus, and they can vary a lot from tegu to tegu. "
You can breed what the hell you like and call it a hybrid, but it means nothing
Thats whats so stupid about all this blue business ... People have bred their blues and got black and whites ... They are saying they are blues due to their parentage ... Its rubbish 
The gene pool of Argentinian tegus in captivity is so small that basically they are all just black and white or red ... They may have a couple of little bits of other colour in but nothing that interesting ... And some may grow bigger than others ... But that is the same in all creatures anyway


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## TeguBuzz (Dec 11, 2011)

boyd1955 said:


> You can call it a hybrid as much as you like ... Its just a plain old black and white tegu ... Its just like all this blue nonsense ... They are mating blues and of course not getting what they were expecting
> Vanguard on here put it quite nicely
> " Tegus are polymorphic, meaning in tegus they are known for occurring in several forms and there are no set rules as for color or pattern. Normal tegus, red tegus, giant tegus and blue tegus can range from very dark to very light in color, and they can show whites, blacks, grays, yellows, reds, oranges, blues and even greens in the color. These all can also occur in the same clutch within siblings.
> So all though, black and white are the primary color in normal Argentines, red, blacks and grays in reds, blue, black and browns in blues, creams, whites, grays and blacks in giants, many other colors may also occur as well. Same is true when it comes to pattern. You might breed two very dark tegus and get some very light ones, or breed very light ones and get dark ones, there are no set colors in tegus, and they can vary a lot from tegu to tegu. "
> ...



Are you kidding me?


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## james.w (Dec 11, 2011)

You can quote whoever you want but polymorphism pertains to traits within a species. Hybridization is a mix of more than one species, reds and black and whites are two different species therefore this cross creates a hybrid. The debate on blues is a different story and doesn't really matter here since we already have two different species.


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## teguboy77 (Dec 11, 2011)

james.w said:


> You can quote whoever you want but polymorphism pertains to traits within a species. Hybridization is a mix of more than one species, reds and black and whites are two different species therefore this cross creates a hybrid. The debate on blues is a different story and doesn't really matter here since we already have two different species.



Agree 100%!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Deac77 (Dec 11, 2011)

Is a Wolf/Husky not a hybrid? its 2 species or even a Bobcat/House Cat 2 VERY different species or a Horse/Donkey all of wich are 2 species scientifically classified. Reds are a different species than black and white otherwise they'd have the same scientific name correct? so there for it would be a HYBRID 

hy·brid? ?/?ha?br?d/ Show Spelled[hahy-brid] Show IPA 
noun 
1. the offspring of two animals or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, especially as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics. 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hybrid


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## HPIZZLE (Dec 11, 2011)

boyd1955 said:


> You can call it a hybrid as much as you like ... Its just a plain old black and white tegu ... Its just like all this blue nonsense ... They are mating blues and of course not getting what they were expecting
> Vanguard on here put it quite nicely
> " Tegus are polymorphic, meaning in tegus they are known for occurring in several forms and there are no set rules as for color or pattern. Normal tegus, red tegus, giant tegus and blue tegus can range from very dark to very light in color, and they can show whites, blacks, grays, yellows, reds, oranges, blues and even greens in the color. These all can also occur in the same clutch within siblings.
> So all though, black and white are the primary color in normal Argentines, red, blacks and grays in reds, blue, black and browns in blues, creams, whites, grays and blacks in giants, many other colors may also occur as well. Same is true when it comes to pattern. You might breed two very dark tegus and get some very light ones, or breed very light ones and get dark ones, there are no set colors in tegus, and they can vary a lot from tegu to tegu. "
> ...



if you cant grasp the concept of hybrid tegus, then why even look in the crosses forum?


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## reptastic (Dec 11, 2011)

Well perhaps u can explain to everyone why since they are all da same why do they each have specific traits that differ, i will agree that tegus are polymorphic and will vary even within the same cluch heck i had a black nose whose clutchmate ended up being high white and vice versa, however certain traits like the burnt nose and tear drops in blues or the head shape and color patterns in giants are distinct to those specific groups


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## jwax17 (Dec 11, 2011)

so are you suggesting that bobby hill send me a normal black and white tegu or just simple debating wether there are such things as tegu hybrids


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## boyd1955 (Dec 12, 2011)

Look at the original picture ... Its a cute little black and white tegu ... Nothing more and nothing less ... That is in no way a bad thing ... There is no reason to make him out as anything more than he is
And yes ... Bobby Hill sent you a black and white tegu ... God knows who its parents were ... It could have come out of a red ... And if it breeds it could have reds ... They are polymorphic ... They are probably ALL "HYBRIDS"


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## Deac77 (Dec 12, 2011)

So if reds are the same as black and whites why the different Scintific name? wouldnt they be the same once again back to dogs and wolves are they the same just bc they are both canines?


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## TeguBuzz (Dec 12, 2011)

jwax17 said:


> so are you suggesting that bobby hill send me a normal black and white tegu or just simple debating wether there are such things as tegu hybrids



Ignore Boyd's comments. You have an AA.


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## boyd1955 (Dec 12, 2011)

It might have come out of some tegus that have been given this ridiculous AA name ... But as anyone with a bit of suss knows its all a sales scam ... There is no such thing as an AA ... It was made up by some businessman to try and sell more product ... Tegus aren't product ... They are rather nice lizards ... Call it an AA all you want ... Its still a black and white tegu isn't it ... What difference is it from any other black and white ... And don't say its hybrid genes because the fact is you don't know the parentage of any black and white either and they are, if you take any notice of your theories, all hybrids
You need to stop thinking of tegus in business terms because we are going to end up with some serious genetic problems in the species in captivity because of its limited GP ... Its starting already ... And I have a feeling with all the unfulfilled orders that we have seen this year it is getting worse


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## james.w (Dec 12, 2011)

Boyd, you don't seem to understand a whole lot. You need to understand a Red tegu is not a color variation of a black and white tegu, it is a different species. Bobby knows to the best of his knowledge what the parents of the All Americans are. Quit reading so far into the name, once you cross a black and white with a red, you have a hybrid, get it through your head. There is no debating this, it is a scientific fact. If it was called a Red, blue, extreme hybrid would that make you happier?


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## reptastic (Dec 12, 2011)

Boyd you seem to be very confused, he has an all american tegu, as james stated its just a name representing the colors, red white and blue, its a hybrid consistant of a t.merinae/t.rufescence(redxblue)bred to a t.merinae(extreme) do we know who da parents are? y es we do because the breeder has supplied proof through pics, not to mention the redxblue (violet) use to belong to teguboy77 and members like johnmatthew has seen the tegus in person, you can attempt to argue with the facts all you want but until you can furbish proof of studies that you yourself have done on wild tegus in south america, they will just be your opinion


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## boyd1955 (Dec 12, 2011)

Reptastic ... Like I say ... You've bred whatever but got a black and white tegu ... Tell me what is different about that reptile from a black and white tegu please ?
I don't care about its lineage because they are polymorphous and anything can come out of anything so it means nothing 
tell me why that tegu is different from any other black and white ?
What red white and blue ... Its black and white
Its a black and white tegu
If you want to say it isn't then look at it and tell me what is different


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## james.w (Dec 12, 2011)

Polymorphism only comes into play when breeding SAME species together. When you breed MORE than one species it becomes a hybrid. What part if this do you not understand? 

I don't know why you keep bringing up polymorphism, it has nothing to do with the fact that these are hybrids. It's funny how you use Varnyard's explanation of polymorphism, but than say he is wrong for naming them all Americans and saying they are hybrids. So.which is it, is he wrong or right?


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## reptastic (Dec 12, 2011)

Its still an all american tegu, the linage is important, im not going to say its a normal b/w because its not, b/ws, blues and extremes are all predomaninatly b/w in color but they can easily be destinguished, their patterns and head shape are different, whether they are locales of the b/w is debatible but they are different in there own wa


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## teguboy77 (Dec 12, 2011)

reptastic said:


> Boyd you seem to be very confused, he has an all american tegu, as james stated its just a name representing the colors, red white and blue, its a hybrid consistant of a t.merinae/t.rufescence(redxblue)bred to a t.merinae(extreme) do we know who da parents are? y es we do because the breeder has supplied proof through pics, not to mention the redxblue (violet) use to belong to teguboy77 and members like johnmatthew has seen the tegus in person, you can attempt to argue with the facts all you want but until you can furbish proof of studies that you yourself have done on wild tegus in south america, they will just be your opinion



The redxblue did come from me as i sold it to bobby,also blizzard the extreme was mine too i bought it off bobby as a hatchling,then i sold it to a person on here named swatbrat who then gave it to bobby just for the record.So reptastic is correct.And bobby bought of me a redxblkxwht that i bought off bert.So bobby bought two hybrids off me.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Dec 12, 2011)

_ This is seriously sad,.. Jwax was just posting an update on his tegu nothing more nothing less. 

Boyds opinion is nothing new, since he's been here you practically can't mention a Blue, AA or Hybrid with out him having an issue with it and taking the thread off point. It's not the first time it's happened and guaranteed it won't be the last because nothing has changed he still feels the same way.

For what ever reason it may be,.. doesn't like Bobby, hybrids, Americans in general or just to keep stirring up nonsense. Nothing no one has said or shown proof of is changing that,.. so why keep feeding in to it? 

It's not something we've seen in captivity before, it's only the third generation. So they're guaranteed to vary from one to the next more than any other tegu. In no way does that change what it's parents are making him an AA since that's the name they were given.

When I look at the recent pic for now he may not be showing any Red traits but that may or may not change as he gets older. His Blue and Ext genes may be more visually dominant than the Reds.
If you look back at his baby pics he was more green than the first clutch but he still has that copper tone, kind of oil spill iridescence that baby AAs have._


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## reptastic (Dec 12, 2011)

Now that i didnt know, so you kinda helped bobby start the aa line


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## teguboy77 (Dec 12, 2011)

james.w said:


> Polymorphism only comes into play when breeding SAME species together. When you breed MORE than one species it becomes a hybrid. What part if this do you not understand?
> 
> I don't know why you keep bringing up polymorphism, it has nothing to do with the fact that these are hybrids. It's funny how you use Varnyard's explanation of polymorphism, but than say he is wrong for naming them all Americans and saying they are hybrids. So.which is it, is he wrong or right?



Good point james.w.


reptastic said:


> Now that i didnt know, so you kinda helped bobby start the aa line



Yeah i guess lol.


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## reptastic (Dec 12, 2011)

Lol you should be proud


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## teguboy77 (Dec 12, 2011)

Well i helped j/k lol.


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## boyd1955 (Dec 13, 2011)

Whatever you claim an AA is, its not anything that hasn't occurred in the wild before ... In black and white tegus ... Its such nonsense to say that 
The traits that you are talking about are just like inheriting blue or green eyes from a parent ... They may come out in the next generation and may not ... Show me a gang of what comes out of any collection of eggs from one of these tegus ... Then you will begin to see what I mean ... Very varied ... And all black and white tegus
Its all just a silly sad business venture 
I'll shut up now cos I'm really busy for the next 2 weeks
Nice black and white tegu


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## laurarfl (Dec 13, 2011)

Some of the issue is trying to determine what is what by a photograph. I'm sorry to even add to the thread because it takes away from the OP. I have no opinion here on the marketing of AA, etc. But, I have a T. marianae x T. rufescens offspring that looks a lot like a T. marianae. In fact, if you did not know it was a hybrid, you couldn't tell by looking at it.

I agree that tegus are highly polymorphic. However, when one someone breeds one species of tegu to another species of tegu, it is in fact a hybrid regardless of whether the genes that show specific traits to one or the other species are expressed. Blues and B/W may be the same species, but the red definitely is not.


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## reptastic (Dec 13, 2011)

Umm laura im still waiting to see pics of the hybrid lol, i havnt seen any since he was a itty bitty hatchling


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## james.w (Dec 13, 2011)

boyd1955 said:


> Whatever you claim an AA is, its not anything that hasn't occurred in the wild before ... In black and white tegus ... Its such nonsense to say that
> The traits that you are talking about are just like inheriting blue or green eyes from a parent ... They may come out in the next generation and may not ... Show me a gang of what comes out of any collection of eggs from one of these tegus ... Then you will begin to see what I mean ... Very varied ... And all black and white tegus
> Its all just a silly sad business venture
> I'll shut up now cos I'm really busy for the next 2 weeks
> Nice black and white tegu



Once again you aren't understanding the FACTS, more than one species bred together will create hybrids. It doesn't matter what they look like. they are still hybrids. 

We are all in agreement that all tegus will look different, even from the same clutch. Hybridization will also help with the issue of the so-called small gene pool you claim there is. If breeding black and whites to reds, it mixes new blood and broadens the blood line.


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## Johnnydr (Dec 13, 2011)

By the way....dogs and wolves are the same species 

Also....many red wolves have cayote in them....an issue here in the east.

There are also brown bears that are more closely related to polar bears than other brown bears.

All tegus came from a common ancestor.....through time, speciation occured and you get these distint "in betweens" like blues and giants. Then you have animals who's genes became different enough to call it's own individual species (reds/columbians).

The concept of a species can definitely be argued in some cases, but not this one. There are different species. Red tegus aren't just redhead black and whites.


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## boyd1955 (Dec 13, 2011)

Black and whites and reds are definitely different
I may be busy but not silenced
Like some of you are starting to admit
There are black and white tegus ... And there are red tegus ... And there are Golden/Columbian tegus
The rest is crap
I love tegus and am sick of this nonsense being conjured up by these people trying to make money out of them
There are loads of colour variations in the wild
Its completely normal
It does not make the species anything different from the original three
You people who are trying to make up this nonsense about hybrids, AAs and extremes are a joke ... None of these things are original or anything that does not occur in the wild amongst the base species
Basically you are just trying to con people who know no better ... And possibly yourselves
Now grow up and stop spouting this rubbish and move on into the twentieth century when we aren't putting up with this greed and nonsense
Tegu's are wonderful and don't need your business crap to prove it
And this is from a real tegu lover not a business man or someone who wants people to think they have better things than anyone else
Ban me if you want to and prove that this place has become nothing more than a site to promote business rather than a site for people who love tegus and want to exchange knowledge and help each other look after our tegus


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## james.w (Dec 13, 2011)

There are very few "business" people that frequent this site. 

The problem is you have no idea what you are talking about or what makes a hybrid a hybrid. At this point there are only 3 species of tegu available in the pet trade. Two of those are able to crossed which creates a hybrid. Whether or not it happens in the wild doesn't change the fact that it is a hybrid.


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## teguboy77 (Dec 13, 2011)

The one thing that i can say is alot of people who replied to this post dont breed,so con people i dont know about that:dodgy:.The extreme chacoan tegu is a argentine tegu as far as i know just a different color both Tupinambis merianae.Red tegus are argentine tegus as well Tupinambis Rufescens,but a redxblue to me are a hybrid just my opinion,i always thought blue tegus were some what in the argentine blk/wht blood line just my opinion lol and thats were they started.Now do i think some breeders use hybrid and things to there advantage oh yes just to get more money for the tegus.But thats there prerogative and if its out of your price range than dont buy it and stop being a hater!!!!!Everybody thats on this tegu forum for the most part takes good care of there tegus and cares for thrm alot from what i read .


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## got10 (Dec 13, 2011)

TeguBuzz said:


> boyd1955 said:
> 
> 
> > You can call it a hybrid as much as you like ... Its just a plain old black and white tegu ... Its just like all this blue nonsense ... They are mating blues and of course not getting what they were expecting
> ...



If we ignore ,it may go away .lol


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## reptastic (Dec 13, 2011)

This is getting rediculous whether or not you can admit to the facts, they still remain the op has an all american hybrid tegu, this thread will be closed now


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## reptastic (Dec 13, 2011)

This is getting rediculous whether or not you can admit to the facts, they still remain the op has an all american hybrid tegu, this thread will be closed now


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## got10 (Dec 13, 2011)

boyd1955 said:


> Black and whites and reds are definitely different
> I may be busy but not silenced
> Like some of you are starting to admit
> There are black and white tegus ... And there are red tegus ... And there are Golden/Columbian tegus
> ...



Cool. How may Gu's do you have as pets ? I had 13 but now am down to 10. And i have owned all the available known argentine types in the pet trade reds, b/w, and blues. 
I have to ask this though, why are you so anti blue tegu? Since i have seen you appear on this forum i have noticed that you have many strong opinions . But can you please inform us as to your source of information as we can be so enlightened too. Because it seems you have plenty of info . And if you are onto something it just might be able to turn this forum around as well as the reptile trade as we know it. Actually you should start a thread just on your info.


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