# How much Calcium?



## Alxsparks (Jan 1, 2013)

Hi,

We've had Finnegan (a Chacoan) for about six months, during which time he's been pretty regularly on the Bobby Hill ground turkey and beef liver dusted with calcium diet (no D3 in the calcium).

Recently we went to the vet and were told that Finnegan needed more calcium. We were given a liquid calcium supplement that he'll get nightly for a month and, after months of refusal, we've finally gotten Finnegan to take Fuzzies (which I'm pretty excited about).

My question is about the amount of calcium powder we should be giving daily. Clearly the "dusting" was not enough, but if it gets dry and crusted with the powder, Finnegan won't eat it. When I'm mixing my beef liver with ground turkey (about 1 lb. of meat), how much calcium powder should I be mixing in?


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## Dubya (Jan 1, 2013)

Alxsparks said:


> Hi,
> 
> We've had Finnegan (a Chacoan) for about six months, during which time he's been pretty regularly on the Bobby Hill ground turkey and beef liver dusted with calcium diet (no D3 in the calcium).
> 
> ...



Laurafl on this forum told me that about one measuring tablespoon per pound of food is about right. Laura knows her stuff. I also heard that a little too much calcium will not hurt as long as it is without D3. The excess gets excreted. I mix it in with my tegu's wet food. He also doesn't like it sprinkled on.


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## james.w (Jan 1, 2013)

Feed whole prey, rats and chicks are great. Chicken necks are good sources of calcium as well.


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## Roadkill (Jan 1, 2013)

How many times does this have to get said before people learn it: the directions on the supplement containers are directions for if you are already giving a balanced diet. Ground meat is NOT a balanced diet. With ground meat, you HAVE to rebuild all the missing elements, particularly calcium. A "dusting" is a ridiculously MINOR amount. You are trying to replace all the bones that are now missing from that mass. Where would you be standing if all your bones were removed and in their place you were given a "dusting" of calcium? That's right, you'd be gurgling pile of meat on the floor.


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## Little Wise Owl (Jan 1, 2013)

I would only feed Bobby Hill's diet as an occasional meal. In my opinion, it's way too devoid of important nutrients. Feed more whole prey (mice, rats, roaches, crickets, superworms, crawfish, snails, earthworms, etc) and high calcium vegetables and ripe fruit and less meat. Anything without bones should be dusted with calcium (insects, veggies, fruits, meat...)


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## Skeetzy (Jan 1, 2013)

What about making the mix with hare-today meat, which contains chunks of bones and organs.


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## Alxsparks (Jan 1, 2013)

Roadkill: I'm not sure why you think we are following directions on a supplement container. As I said in my original post, we have been following recommendations made by Bobby Hill.

Thank you everyone else for the advice! Dubya (and LauraF): we will try the one tablespoon/lb. I know you guys have a lot of experience! Thanks for sharing!


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## Diablo (Jan 1, 2013)

Skeetzy said:


> What about making the mix with hare-today meat, which contains chunks of bones and organs.



Those are whole ground prey and have all the bones. I don't even dust when I fed Yoshi that mix. Although when he wakes up I will probably add a small amount just to give a little extra, but I don't think you even have to add since the bones are in the mix.


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## Little Wise Owl (Jan 1, 2013)

You wouldn't need to add extra calcium to a whole prey mix from Hare-today. Only if it didn't contain bone.


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## Orion (Jan 1, 2013)

I stopped putting any type of calcium supplement on my Tegus food years ago after I had issues with impaction with my girl Tiny. She had MBD bad after surgery for eating mulch. After weeks of the vet treating her and giving her liquid and powder calcium supplements she was quickly losing the ability to use her legs, she could barely walk. As she was able to start taking on whole prey items. Pinkys, then mice pups (Pre killed frozen then fully thawed.) then mice, I could see improvement immediatly and with in a couple weeks she was walking again. Its been 3 years and I make sure they she and my other 2 Gus enough whole prey items. I also make sure their lightning is proper UVA/UVB, and cage temps and humidity are good. She even lunges at the mice I hold in tongs for her.


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## Roadkill (Jan 1, 2013)

Alxsparks: first, I'd say Bobby Hill has as much understanding of nutrition and tegu biology as Rush Limbaugh has of diplomatic foreign relations. Second, you describe what you are doing as "dusting". To make ground meat appropriately nutritional with respect to calcium and phosphorous, the adjective used would not be so much "dusting" as "scooping". The two together make me question what you are doing. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong, but when people use the term "dusting", they often mean unmeasured amounts and just a little bit topping the food - wholly inadequate for trying to make nutritionally sound meals for a tegu. As many have stated here, it is better to go with whole prey. You can certainly also make a sound diet from ground meats, I've done so for years, but the number one thing you will see when people are asking what's wrong with their tegu, why has it developed NSHP, is they say "I regularly dust my food with supplements".


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## Dubya (Jan 1, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> Alxsparks: first, I'd say Bobby Hill has as much understanding of nutrition and tegu biology as Rush Limbaugh has of diplomatic foreign relations. Second, you describe what you are doing as "dusting". To make ground meat appropriately nutritional with respect to calcium and phosphorous, the adjective used would not be so much "dusting" as "scooping". The two together make me question what you are doing. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong, but when people use the term "dusting", they often mean unmeasured amounts and just a little bit topping the food - wholly inadequate for trying to make nutritionally sound meals for a tegu. As many have stated here, it is better to go with whole prey. You can certainly also make a sound diet from ground meats, I've done so for years, but the number one thing you will see when people are asking what's wrong with their tegu, why has it developed NSHP, is they say "I regularly dust my food with supplements".



Rush Limbaugh should be secretary of state, for God's sake!


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## Alxsparks (Jan 1, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> Alxsparks: first, I'd say Bobby Hill has as much understanding of nutrition and tegu biology as Rush Limbaugh has of diplomatic foreign relations. Second, you describe what you are doing as "dusting". To make ground meat appropriately nutritional with respect to calcium and phosphorous, the adjective used would not be so much "dusting" as "scooping". The two together make me question what you are doing. Maybe I'm seeing it wrong, but when people use the term "dusting", they often mean unmeasured amounts and just a little bit topping the food - wholly inadequate for trying to make nutritionally sound meals for a tegu. As many have stated here, it is better to go with whole prey. You can certainly also make a sound diet from ground meats, I've done so for years, but the number one thing you will see when people are asking what's wrong with their tegu, why has it developed NSHP, is they say "I regularly dust my food with supplements".



Roadkill, Bobby Hill was able to provide me with a healthy Tegu, so I had no reason not to follow his advice. There’s very little to recommend any one approach (including yours) over any other (including Bobby Hill’s or laurafl or Skeetzy). I’m just trying to figure out what will work for my tegu.

Also: yes, we have been “dusting,” meaning using “unmeasured amounts and just a little bit topping the food” and yes, as we have recently learned that is “wholly inadequate for trying to make nutritionally sounds meals for a tegu.” I came here because I learned that it was not enough and I was looking for advice. Parsing the language of my post and ranting about my methods or how people are using the instructions on a supplement package or taking advice that is not consistent with your experience is not only unhelpful, but it also dissuades people who need help from getting it. Sadly, the one that suffers in the long run is the tegu.


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## Roadkill (Jan 1, 2013)

My apologies if you think I was singling you out in this. My frustration is in the fact that the situation you present is one we've seen so many times, for so many years, that it is aggravating how this "just dust the food" advice gets perpetrated over and over and over. I'm not trying to punish you for the mistake you've made as much as I'm trying to get as many readers to realise this very, very common advice is a recipe for failure. The problem, as far as I can see it, is people lock onto the "just dust it a couple times a week" without realising the necessary underlining caveat that the diet needs to be balanced in the first place, they're totally blind to the important information. I realise most people want the easy way out, to be told the simple formula for how to do it. There isn't necessarily any one formula, but there is trying to reasonably understand the situation. I am often asked my "routine" or my "method" - I don't have one. I don't follow a schedule like I've often seen "on Monday they get X, on Wednesday they get Y, on Friday they get Z.....". What I try to do is give as much variety as possible, but no matter what I give, I pay attention to what should be the balance and reach for that. The total calciumhosphorous ratio should be 2:1-3:1; assuming that whole prey is relatively the goal one is going for, this document (http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf) gives some general values to help one build a simulating meal and gauge the amount of calcium one should be using; and a literature search of appropriate research articles will give you an idea of what is typically found in gut content analyses of wild caught tegus (assuming that what wild tegus are eating in general indicates what should be provided to mimic a healthy diet). I'm sorry if this is not the advice you want to hear. If you want simple, then go whole prey, try offering some appropriate fruits and veggies. If this isn't the way you want to go, then you will need to educate yourself to truly understand their needs. Stopping at any one person's advice (including my own) is placing a whole lot of faith in the idea that that person really knows what they are talking about.


PS - congratulations on being one of the few people not completely conned by Bobby Hill this year.


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## laurarfl (Jan 2, 2013)

I have quite a few thoughts:

*Alxsparks, please don't take offense at any comments made in this thread. After knowing Roadkill on-line for many years, I've come to understand a lot about him and his posting style. My husband communicates the same way...blunt and will speak the truth regardless of whether you want to hear it or not.  I have learned a tremendous amount about tegus thanks to Roadkill. Usually I branch off of something he has mentioned and then go and do my own research. 

*On the forums, you don't always know a person's background. Bobby has tegu husbandry experience, but no science background. My science background is all 4yr University level, graduate work in another field. Roadkill may want to remain anonymous so I won't reveal much about him, but let's say he has tremendous experience and scientific knowledge regarding tegus. It is his passion for his work that makes him seem like a ranting lunatic. heh heh This sort of information helps me to decide who's suggestions I'm taking in the long run. But like Roadkill said, never stop at one person's advice regarding anything in life...

*Unfortunately, Bobby Hill has posted erroneously nutritional advice when he owned this forum and on his website articles. But no one ever called him out on it (unfortunately, I didn't either). There are some good points in his diet and some bad as well. I'm sure his diet was created to feed his tegus economically since he had a business and many mouths to feed. But there are better ways to feed an individually owned tegu.

*When I first began keeping tegus in 2006, I was a calcium duster. There, I said it. lol. At sometime around there I was also rehabbing a very sickly green ig. The information being discussed among the ig people was kidney failure due to long-term over-supplementation of powdered calcium. So I became a very conservative calcium user....a little bit 2-3x week with no consideration of the diet. I knew about the proper Ca: P ratio, but wasn't connecting the dots about working that into a daily diet because I was thinking on weekly terms. I don't know if that makes sense, but basically I was just reading the directions on the label. Roadkill and I had some discussions and it really got me to thinking. So I spent a lot of time researching the calcium content of foods, variances within calcium supplements, etc.

*OK, so the bottom line. I try to feed whole prey 2-3x weekly, depending on the age of the tegu. Then I feed other stuff, including ground turkey. But I despise liver of US captive animals...bleh. Calcium is added to any food without bones at every meal. I feed fruit/plant matter at a mixture of about 75meat/25plant. just an arbitrary ratio I picked because my tegus will eat. Sometimes they eat more, sometimes less. I add 1tblspn powder calcium w or w/oD (depending on a lot factors) per pound of meat. Most supplements will recommend 1/2tblspn, but because of degradation and absorption, I use a whole. I also do not have a schedule. I just feed what's on hand to be balanced. My big ones are sleeping so the small ones are eating turkey necks and gizzards today with some leftover bananas.

Forgive any typos...I'm on my first cup of coffee this morning.


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## chitodadon (Jan 2, 2013)

Question I feed my monster chicken hearts whole quail and ground salmon w/ bones, when I feed chicken hearts I out calcium powder in bag shake it up then when I out it in tge dish I put more calcium powder in top, is this good and wats the best vitamins for him I wamt to be perfect, oh yea he hates fruits unless he is really hungry please pm me also the best way thanks

from Samsung Galaxy S3


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## Roadkill (Jan 2, 2013)

Laura and chitodadon have brought up some points that I overlooked and would like to emphasise on this topic. Not only is the practice of "dusting" when using ground meats inadequate for meeting the needs of your tegu (or any other animal), the hand-in-hand practice of 2 or 3 times a week is also insufficient. Any meal where you aren't using whole prey (ie. ground meats, organ meats, fruits & veggies), you need to supplement to get the essential nutrients levels where they are needed (particularly calcium and phosphorous). Admittedly, this doesn't have to be at each and every meal. However, as a rough guess, if you are not offering properly balanced diet for more than 20% of all meals, then you are taking a huge risk at running into nutritional deficiencies. Think about that, 20%. Considering on average that most tegus eat about every other day, that is roughly 3 meals a week. Lets say you skip doing the grudging supplementation for one meal a week - that equates to about 33% of their total diet and means the risk of nutritional deficiency is quite substantial.

Laura has also brought up another point that I think is definitely worth contemplation. Liver as a substantial component of the diet. I wouldn't stop at liver, I think this argument should encompass all similar organs - those that are filters. Filter organs (liver, kidney, to some extent lung) are responsible for cleaning up the wastes and toxins in the body system. If an organism has been contaminated with anything, it is in these organs that the contaminants are likely to be sequestered and concentrated. For this reason I feel these organs should be avoided.

Yet another thing to consider is the nutritional content of organ meats (outside of calcium and phosphorous, that is). Many organ meats are particularly high in vitamins D & A, both of which are lipid soluble. Non-lipid soluble vitamins are typically excreted via urination when they are overly abundant. Lipid soluble vitamins tend to get stored in fatty tissues when they are abundant. This means that while you can take all the vitamin C you can get your hands on and it won't harm you, with vitamins A & D you CAN overdose on them and suffer hypervitaminosis diseases. Tegus in particular have two big organs in their abdomens that are nothing but fat, the fat bodies. This means they have an even greater means of building up these vitamins to dangerous levels. Unfortunately, science hasn't worked out what are the safe levels for vitamin A & D.

Which brings us to the possible dangers of oversupplementing. Some people warn of oversupplementing with calcium, that this leads to soft tissue calcification. Recent case studies seem to indicate this isn't entirely true, that it isn't oversupplementing with calcium, but oversupplementing with calcium AND vitamin D3. Hence why there is a big push for calcium supplements without vitamin D3 added. The animals still clearly need vitamin D3, but it appears to be much safer for them to acquire this through proper UVB exposure than through dietary supplementation.

As Laura has stated, I have to admit, I am blunt and direct to the point. It has been speculated by some (with far greater knowledge and experience in the field than I) that I am potentially within the Asperger's spectrum. My concern is not whether I've trampled a few toes and feelings, it's whether I can improve the care and knowledge of tegus (and other reptiles & amphibians). I don't know if you were around back then, Laura, but I did challenge Bobby many times on his nutrition and other advice - hence why he booted me from this site when he started it up. Few would heed the warnings because the worship of Bobby was still prevalent - it has taken a while but thankfully many are now seeing Bobby isn't as knowledgeable as he likes to portray himself to be.


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## chitodadon (Jan 2, 2013)

*Re: RE: How much Calcium?*



Roadkill said:


> Laura and chitodadon have brought up some points that I overlooked and would like to emphasise on this topic. Not only is the practice of "dusting" when using ground meats inadequate for meeting the needs of your tegu (or any other animal), the hand-in-hand practice of 2 or 3 times a week is also insufficient. Any meal where you aren't using whole prey (ie. ground meats, organ meats, fruits & veggies), you need to supplement to get the essential nutrients levels where they are needed (particularly calcium and phosphorous). Admittedly, this doesn't have to be at each and every meal. However, as a rough guess, if you are not offering properly balanced diet for more than 20% of all meals, then you are taking a huge risk at running into nutritional deficiencies. Think about that, 20%. Considering on average that most tegus eat about every other day, that is roughly 3 meals a week. Lets say you skip doing the grudging supplementation for one meal a week - that equates to about 33% of their total diet and means the risk of nutritional deficiency is quite substantial.
> 
> Laura has also brought up another point that I think is definitely worth contemplation. Liver as a substantial component of the diet. I wouldn't stop at liver, I think this argument should encompass all similar organs - those that are filters. Filter organs (liver, kidney, to some extent lung) are responsible for cleaning up the wastes and toxins in the body system. If an organism has been contaminated with anything, it is in these organs that the contaminants are likely to be sequestered and concentrated. For this reason I feel these organs should be avoided.
> 
> ...



So what do u suggest I do roadkill

from Samsung Galaxy S3


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## laurarfl (Jan 2, 2013)

Yes, I was around back then. I remember that discussion when he booted you from this site and when Rick booted him from the other.

What Bobby never stated was that calcium w D was especially bad for his diet of beef liver and cod liver oil. So everyone acted as if Vit D was a poison. It is a necessary supplement for animals not receiving enough UVB for synthesis. It's all about balance and moderation. I think Bobby was a good breeder of tegus who wanted to be THE ONE when it came to tegus. But no one person can be an expert on all things. It is always important to have those experts to turn to for solid knowledge. I know Roadkill is a tegu expert, I have my crocodilian experts to learn from, D Blair and Ty Parks for iguanas, Allen Repashy for nutrition...you get the idea. There's no shame in seeking advice and learning from others. All those T's surely have their mentors and experts as well.


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## Lauraj10551 (Oct 10, 2013)

Is bone meal a good source of calcium if you mix it in with ground turkey, ground chicken and turkey gizzards?


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## laurarfl (Oct 10, 2013)

Bone meal is a good source of calcium.


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## Lauraj10551 (Oct 10, 2013)

Thank you. I am going to get some today.


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## Nickya Murphy (Feb 2, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Laura and chitodadon have brought up some points that I overlooked and would like to emphasise on this topic. Not only is the practice of "dusting" when using ground meats inadequate for meeting the needs of your tegu (or any other animal), the hand-in-hand practice of 2 or 3 times a week is also insufficient. Any meal where you aren't using whole prey (ie. ground meats, organ meats, fruits & veggies), you need to supplement to get the essential nutrients levels where they are needed (particularly calcium and phosphorous). Admittedly, this doesn't have to be at each and every meal. However, as a rough guess, if you are not offering properly balanced diet for more than 20% of all meals, then you are taking a huge risk at running into nutritional deficiencies. Think about that, 20%. Considering on average that most tegus eat about every other day, that is roughly 3 meals a week. Lets say you skip doing the grudging supplementation for one meal a week - that equates to about 33% of their total diet and means the risk of nutritional deficiency is quite substantial.
> 
> Laura has also brought up another point that I think is definitely worth contemplation. Liver as a substantial component of the diet. I wouldn't stop at liver, I think this argument should encompass all similar organs - those that are filters. Filter organs (liver, kidney, to some extent lung) are responsible for cleaning up the wastes and toxins in the body system. If an organism has been contaminated with anything, it is in these organs that the contaminants are likely to be sequestered and concentrated. For this reason I feel these organs should be avoided.
> 
> ...






How do you feel about using baked egg shells for a calcium supplement powder?


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