# Is it possible to cross columbians and argentines?



## AP27 (Jan 30, 2012)

I don't intend to, nor have i heard of it being done, it was just a curiosity. Anyone ever heard of it being done or think it is possible?


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Jan 30, 2012)

_It hasn't been proven one way or another but I think it can happen._


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## AP27 (Jan 30, 2012)

I was just curious about it. There's a lot of different hybrid possibilities if columbians were brought into the mix. I'd personally like to see what happened if someone were to successfully cross a gold with a blue.


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## Non Crimen Jr. (Jan 30, 2012)

? I totally agree AP27 That would look so cool!!!!


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## Dana C (Jan 30, 2012)

Like many dog crosses by people trying to invent a new breed, often you get the worst of both and the results are very unreliable. Because we don't know what traits are dominate or recessive genetically, the decision to out breed to what is a different species has to be made not on what would look cool. The two have different diets, humidity requirements, one hibernates the other doesn't, (generally). 
When you breed any animal you should be striving to improve the species. Because it may work is not enough of a reason to do it. 
Consider the ethics of crossing different species. You would be hard put to find a trained herpitologist or biologist that would approve.

A great example is the Liger which is a human induced cross between an African Lion and a Bengal or Siberian Tiger. They are huge and beautiful. They are also short lived, unpredictable behaviorally, and suffer from muscle and joint problems. They are beautiful but are destined to lives of physical misery.


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## Grendel (Jan 30, 2012)

I have one that is supposed to be a cross between the two, still young, looks kinda weird ( maybe just a genetic anomaly). I have no way to prove it is a cross, but the place I bought it from, claims it is.


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## james.w (Jan 30, 2012)

Grendel said:


> I have one that is supposed to be a cross between the two, still young, looks kinda weird ( maybe just a genetic anomaly). I have no way to prove it is a cross, but the place I bought it from, claims it is.



I very highly doubt you have a Colombian x Argentine. I don't believe it is possible without a lot of the process done in a lab. I don't think anyone would spend the money or time to do this. 

This sounds a lot like a story I heard from a kid who claimed he had a python x boa hybrid. It was supposedly proven to him by his genetics teacher. Needless to say, but it was not what he claimed he had and pictures nor proof never surfaced. 

Grendel can you post some pics of your questionable tegu??


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Jan 30, 2012)

Dana C said:


> Like many dog crosses by people trying to invent a new breed, often you get the worst of both and the results are very unreliable. Because we don't know what traits are dominate or recessive genetically, the decision to out breed to what is a different species has to be made not on what would look cool. The two have different diets, humidity requirements, one hibernates the other doesn't, (generally).
> When you breed any animal you should be striving to improve the species. Because it may work is not enough of a reason to do it.
> Consider the ethics of crossing different species. You would be hard put to find a trained herpitologist or biologist that would approve.
> 
> A great example is the Liger which is a human induced cross between an African Lion and a Bengal or Siberian Tiger. They are huge and beautiful. They are also short lived, unpredictable behaviorally, and suffer from muscle and joint problems. They are beautiful but are destined to lives of physical misery.



_That's a broad generalization, for Tegus and the Liger. For Tegus their diet and humidity requirements are pretty much the same. I offer and both of mine eat the same things, their humidity and husbandry is the same, I don't do anything different. If there's anything different it would be that Korbens enclosure sits on top of Natsukis. So may be a little warmer at times since Natsukis is on the floor. 

Hibernation wise, Colombians aren't known to hibernate but that doesn't mean it can't and doesn't happen, some black and whites don't hibernate. So it's not like it's a requirement, the same goes for Red x Blue hybrids. 

The Liger thing,.. they're still wild animals, born in captivity or not there for unpredictable. The muscle and joint thing could be genetic, we don't know if tests were done (I doubt it) before the first breeding occurred to rule out unhealthy animals with genetic issues._


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## AP27 (Jan 30, 2012)

I'd have to agree with Bubblz on this one. Ligers are a very generalized example and have too many variances to really consider it a viable comparison. They are a man made cross that was not well looked into before it was attempted. The growth promoting gene that is passed on by the male lion is usually countered and equaled out by the growth inhibiting gene of the female, but since the female tiger does not possess this inhibitor gene, the liger reaches massive proportions, causing its joint and heart issues. Lions and tigers, while both in the felidae family are quite genetically different. That said, though Columbian and Aregentine tegus are no doubt somewhat different in their genetic make up, I do not believe their differences are extensive enough to cause such an ethically or physically immoral outcome as that of the liger. I'm no geneticist, so I could very well be wrong. In this case I believe the only way to know for sure was if this cross was ever actually created. There is also the subject of hybrid vigor to consider, which is the fact that hybrid crosses are known to improve the health and vitality of the offspring. Which in the case of the liger, is true, other than the growth gene that was not taken into consideration when the lion and tigress were crossed. Done the other way, with a male tiger and female lion, the offspring, Tigons, are quite healthy animals. So again, I believe there is no way to truly know unless it was done.




As an added note, I would never condone anyone doing this if the outcome would cause the animal to have any sort of physical or genetic deformities, or cause the animal any sort of discomfort as a result of it's parentage.


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## james.w (Jan 30, 2012)

I don't see how the Liger is that far off considering Lions and Tigers are in the same genus and Colombian and Argentine Tegus are as well. 

I highly doubt either would happen in the wild or in captivity unless man played a huge part in the process.


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## got10 (Jan 30, 2012)

No but it would be interesting to see if it did happen


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Jan 31, 2012)

_Agreed,.. since it has yet been proven one way or another there's only one way to find out._


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## Grendel (Feb 1, 2012)

Yes I'll post some recent ones this weekend, he is still semi hibernating. I don't "really" think its a Colombian x Argentinian hybrid, but when I compare it to my red tegu, the extreme, and the regular B&W, he differs from each of them.


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## Hybrid (Feb 10, 2012)

Hi. I don't have any tegus but I would love to keep some in the future. But I want to add my opinion on this matter.

I own a hybrid snake a gopher snake Corn snake hybrid. Both are in seperate genre yet they are completely fertile, some people claim more fertile. All Hybrids between the genrea Pantherophis, Pituophis, and Lampropeltis are completely fertile, You could have a 30 species cross between all 3 genrae and in theory it should be fertile! They also have no known problems from these crosses. Even in Whiptail(a teiid) hybrids, they are completely fine and fertile. Based on those facts, I wouldn't see why its not possible. There are so many reptile hybrids out there that have no health complications. I think comparing hybrids in reptiles and mammals is not a good comparison. Also dog breeds are different then hybrids. Often heterosis(hybrid vigor) will occur in hybrids. I'll try and elaborate later. got to go.


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## monstruo-the-tegu (Feb 10, 2012)

THAT WOULD BE AWESOME A GOLD B/W!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## got10 (Feb 10, 2012)

Hybrid said:


> Hi. I don't have any tegus but I would love to keep some in the future. But I want to add my opinion on this matter.
> 
> I own a hybrid snake a gopher snake Corn snake hybrid. Both are in seperate genre yet they are completely fertile, some people claim more fertile. All Hybrids between the genrea Pantherophis, Pituophis, and Lampropeltis are completely fertile, You could have a 30 species cross between all 3 genrae and in theory it should be fertile! They also have no known problems from these crosses. Even in Whiptail(a teiid) hybrids, they are completely fine and fertile. Based on those facts, I wouldn't see why its not possible. There are so many reptile hybrids out there that have no health complications. I think comparing hybrids in reptiles and mammals is not a good comparison. Also dog breeds are different then hybrids. Often heterosis(hybrid vigor) will occur in hybrids. I'll try and elaborate later. got to go.



You have a better chance of having a boa x python imo . That is how far apart they are in the area of genetics . I asked a curator in the reptile house at the zoo and we had a LOOONG discussion about it . He told me that it is so unlikely to happen unless there is severe human interference in the process. He said mating could take place but it would be a 0-14% chance of viability. ( i dont know how he got those numbers but he went to school for this ,I didn't . But i STILL WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE RESULTS. .


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## Hybrid (Feb 10, 2012)

That is weird. 
Did you know 78.3% of stats are made up on the spot?  jk
I don't know how he could get any stats on this unless he had many Colombian X Argentine pairings and only had a few or none survive. Or if he has looked deep into the genetics of tegus. I kinda think it was a made up figure(really, getting the exact percent in his head?). If they were SO separate genetically why are they even in the same genus? Its possible they don't belong in the same genus, animals are being reclassified all the time. 
BTW, Boa X python are so distantly related. not a good example IMO


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## Dana C (Feb 10, 2012)

My comment was more in the tone of; "Before you try it, ask yourself why you are hoping to accomplish?" I agree that hybrid vigor is a visible thing in many species and has actually saved a few very rare species that were on the edge of extinction. Those exceptions depended on a very closely related species or subspecies for which an animal of the opposite sex either did not exist or could not be found. It was my impression that actually breeding was rare and that most offspring, at least initially were the product of an AI procedure.
In this case, there is no reason to do it as far as I can see. There is no danger of extinction of either species and the attempt may cost the life of one or the other. 
Bubblz is right, we never know until someone tries it however. My wish would be that it be thought out very carefully and monitored even more carefully to avoid potential harm to one or the other.


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## Hybrid (Feb 10, 2012)

The purpose? Fitting it to human needs or wants, that might sound a bit selfish but the only reason people keep tegus is want. Maybe to produce a tegu with the size and less to no brumation of the Colombian and the tameness from the more docile Argentine. If they inherit the bads, switch the sexes used. I would assume, being in the same genus, they would be fertile and you could select the traits you want to pass onto potential F2 offspring. Maybe start several lines of colombianXargentine's to avoid inbreeding passed F2. 
This is all assuming that a hybrid of these would be fertile. 

I think maybe it COULD be a step towards the domestication of tegus if tameness, crave for human attention, color, etc. were bred for. 
But You could do that with pure species too.
But from what I have heard, people only breed for color. 
I think I'm getting ahead of myself lol.

My opinions are still evolving as I have only been researching for only a little over 2 months.


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## Deac77 (Feb 11, 2012)

I dont see how its IMPOSSIBLE if they are the same genus I mean there are all sorts of hybrids that we see reptile and mamal i mean there the lewis x blue cross for the iguanna the mule (tho infertile still no healthproblems with the best of both breeds) growing up i had a Bobcat x house cat cross that lived to be 15 and a cyote x collie cross that was jsut fine you see all sorts of wolf x dog hybrids and isnt the expression "as different as dogs and wolves" used alot lol personally i wouldnt condone it all my crosses i had (dog, cat) were done on accident bc we lived out in the boonies and wasnt forced by ppl but the idea seems interesting and the outcome would be interesting to see i think we'll see it attempted at the least the more popular tegus get in the pet trade


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## dragonmetalhead (Feb 13, 2012)

It used to be thought that two species could only hybridize if they were in the same genus. This is far from the case, especially when you consider that "genus" is a human invention. Beefalo are a perfect example, as they are half bison (Bison bison) and half domestic cattle (Bos primigenius). Obviously, if two species are more closely related there is a higher probability of genetic compatibility. Hypothetically, it makes sense that you could cross a Colombian with an Argentine but it seems the greatest issue would be would the two animals mate with each other. If someone were to try this, perhaps artificial insemination is the route to take. I once met a guy who had a blood/Burmese python hybrid that was 200 pounds and ate cats.


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## monstruo-the-tegu (Feb 13, 2012)

dragonmetalhead said:


> It used to be thought that two species could only hybridize if they were in the same genus. This is far from the case, especially when you consider that "genus" is a human invention. Beefalo are a perfect example, as they are half bison (Bison bison) and half domestic cattle (Bos primigenius). Obviously, if two species are more closely related there is a higher probability of genetic compatibility. Hypothetically, it makes sense that you could cross a Colombian with an Argentine but it seems the greatest issue would be would the two animals mate with each other. If someone were to try this, perhaps artificial insemination is the route to take. I once met a guy who had a blood/Burmese python hybrid that was 200 pounds and ate cats.



blood python x burmese python XD thats awesome sounding i heard about that somewhere


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## Dana C (Feb 14, 2012)

dragonmetalhead said:


> It used to be thought that two species could only hybridize if they were in the same genus. This is far from the case, especially when you consider that "genus" is a human invention. Beefalo are a perfect example, as they are half bison (Bison bison) and half domestic cattle (Bos primigenius). Obviously, if two species are more closely related there is a higher probability of genetic compatibility. Hypothetically, it makes sense that you could cross a Colombian with an Argentine but it seems the greatest issue would be would the two animals mate with each other. If someone were to try this, perhaps artificial insemination is the route to take. I once met a guy who had a blood/Burmese python hybrid that was 200 pounds and ate cats.



Geez, a 200 pound snake with an attitude:huh:


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## RamblinRose (Feb 14, 2012)

It does not happen in the wild, as far as experts go. Why would anyone want it to in the pet trade? I cannot see where there would be even any value in doing so in the pet trade, let alone any sound reasoning behind trying it. A beaded skin Vs a smooth skin? An attitude adjustment? Coloring? Size?... or Just to be the first one? 
Sorry, but that is just how I feel about even the thought of it.


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## laurarfl (Feb 14, 2012)

Are you sure it was a blood/Burm? It sounds more like a Bateater (reticxburm).


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## dragonmetalhead (Feb 14, 2012)

laurarfl said:


> Are you sure it was a blood/Burm? It sounds more like a Bateater (reticxburm).



This was over 10 years ago. I never saw the snake in person, just a photo, and at the time I'd never heard of a blood python. It looked like a significantly-meatier-than-average Burm with lots of reddish color and unusual markings.


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## Hybrid (Feb 17, 2012)

dragonmetalhead said:


> It used to be thought that two species could only hybridize if they were in the same genus. This is far from the case, especially when you consider that "genus" is a human invention. Beefalo are a perfect example, as they are half bison (Bison bison) and half domestic cattle (Bos primigenius). Obviously, if two species are more closely related there is a higher probability of genetic compatibility. Hypothetically, it makes sense that you could cross a Colombian with an Argentine but it seems the greatest issue would be would the two animals mate with each other. If someone were to try this, perhaps artificial insemination is the route to take. I once met a guy who had a blood/Burmese python hybrid that was 200 pounds and ate cats.


Maybe if You were breeding a male colombian to a Argentine you could rub a female Colombians shed on the argentine. The method works on snakes because snakes rely more on smell, I don't know about tegus. 

BTW a beefalo is 3/8 bison or less


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## laurarfl (Feb 18, 2012)

@Dragon...no worries, I was just chatting. 

My females would probably eat my male Colombian if he tried to mate with them.


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## got10 (Feb 18, 2012)

Hybrid said:


> dragonmetalhead said:
> 
> 
> > It used to be thought that two species could only hybridize if they were in the same genus. This is far from the case, especially when you consider that "genus" is a human invention. Beefalo are a perfect example, as they are half bison (Bison bison) and half domestic cattle (Bos primigenius). Obviously, if two species are more closely related there is a higher probability of genetic compatibility. Hypothetically, it makes sense that you could cross a Colombian with an Argentine but it seems the greatest issue would be would the two animals mate with each other. If someone were to try this, perhaps artificial insemination is the route to take. I once met a guy who had a blood/Burmese python hybrid that was 200 pounds and ate cats.
> ...



Trying to figure out the math of 3/8 of an animal process here. Please elaborate on that one.
If half of a half is a quarter . So would it mean that you would have to breed a full cow with an animal that is only a quarter buffalo ?. That would sound like a lot of time and work for what is essentially still a cow.


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## Hybrid (Feb 18, 2012)

got10 said:


> Hybrid said:
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> > dragonmetalhead said:
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Breed a 50/50 cow bison hybrid to a 75/25 Cow bison hybrid and there you go. This has been found to produce an animal with the most desirable traits. Beefalo is considered a pure cow breed(I don't know why though, it doesn't matter which breed of cow was used in the hybrid either). Any cow bison hybrid with more than 3/8 bison is just considered a bison hybrid. I think its the "perfect" cow breed when compared to any other cow 
The only reason I know this is because I accidentally signed up for an agriculture class lol


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## Dana C (Feb 18, 2012)

Once again I have a couple of thoughts on the matter. 
While I can't be positive, it may be that some of their range may over lap. If so one would think that inter breeding would have already occurred, which to my knowledge it hasn't. Once again, I will hang my hat on, "It is just what I thing based upon my humble knowledge".
My second thought would be that a larger Tegu, i.e. a Merianea, wouldn't breed with a Columbian but feed on it if it could. Smaller lizard = big meal.


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## got10 (Feb 19, 2012)

Hybrid said:


> got10 said:
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> > Hybrid said:
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Thats is very informative . It shows im never too old to learn.Thanks


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