# help needed



## reptastic (Apr 2, 2012)

So I'm sure we have all heard that blues and b/w's have bred before, but I'm having a hard time finding any info, I have tried different search engines, breeders ect still nothing, I would lik to see how they look as hatchings juvies or even adults,any negative comments will be removed promtly


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## chelvis (Apr 2, 2012)

To be honest I have looked for a year now to see some pictures and all I have seen are red X blue crosses. I only remember hearing about one cross that hatched out but then heard nothing more, I had wanted to get one of the hatchlings but like I said I heard nothing more. 

I think its hard for people to prove a black and white, blue cross sometimes. Hopefully Bosco and Kiska will finally feel the love and give me some eggs this spring. Bosco is ready by Kiska seems hesitant. If things do not work here I hope to see how your cross with Sobek works out.


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## Bntegus (Apr 2, 2012)

that is what a high white b&w is you breed a b&w with a blue. i have breed them but i have never breed the young together. so what you will get is a very pretty b&w just my 2-cents.


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## Quartzyellowjacket (Apr 2, 2012)

*The long search*



reptastic said:


> So I'm sure we have all heard that blues and b/w's have bred before, but I'm having a hard time finding any info, I have tried different search engines, breeders ect still nothing, I would lik to see how they look as hatchings juvies or even adults,any negative comments will be removed promtly



Dear lord, i've spent an estimated good twenty minutes trying to help you look for this. I've only found tidbits of information, Godspeed Reptastic, Godspeed.


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## reptastic (Apr 2, 2012)

Bntegus said:


> that is what a high white b&w is you breed a b&w with a blue. i have breed them but i have never breed the young together. so what you will get is a very pretty b&w just my 2-cents.



That's not true, bert had a super high white normal that didn't have any blue in her, my females rayne mom is a high white and she dosent have any blue in her, do you have any pics of what they produced?

Chelvis I decided to switch males I'll be using a blue male that right here in il., he's a high white just like sobek, all I find are blueXred or b/wXred

Quartzyellowjacket lol I have been searching what seems like forever


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## james.w (Apr 2, 2012)

reptastic said:


> Bntegus said:
> 
> 
> > that is what a high white b&w is you breed a b&w with a blue. i have breed them but i have never breed the young together. so what you will get is a very pretty b&w just my 2-cents.
> ...



This is where I think there are issues of determining whether or not the blue should be classified as a separate species. Where did Bert's high white come from? Was it wild caught, CBB? Is it possible that it was a blue or that blues are just black/white with differing characteristics? Same thing with Rayne's mom, what is the background on her if you have it?


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## reptastic (Apr 2, 2012)

I'm not sure on berts tegu apparently she was bred by him, I first saw a old video of her a few days ago and a fellow tegu keeper told me a bit about it, as far as raynes mom goes I believe he said she came from one of his clutches a few years back, ill ask himThis was berts girl, I inititially thought blue but I was told she was pure b/w

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEnqDFKVUyE&nomobile=1[/video]


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## chelvis (Apr 2, 2012)

I remember when I saw that vid of her. She was born here in the US and from Brets stock but more of an odd mutation. I have never though of blue as a different speices really, more like Varnyards giants, the blues are just there own morph.


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## Bntegus (Apr 2, 2012)

well blues came from somewhere and no one can really say where. my opinion is that blues are a local but that has nothing to do with what you are asking. i can show you pics but all they are is high whites. this year im going to breed all the combos with pics and all documents to prove there is a whole lot of crap that some breeders are trying to say is not true or they are the only ones with them i have animals that are not from any breeders in the us. im not trying to start **** im just trying to help you breed what you want stop listening to everybody else do what you want.


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## reptastic (Apr 2, 2012)

With the limited knowledge on wild tegus its always possible, but different b/w's from different area look different, the closest I seen to what resemble ablue in the slightest is the black nose's, I havnt seen any high whites with the black nose(just the tip like blues) but we will see what happens if the breeding actually takes


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## RamblinRose (Apr 2, 2012)

I always found it fascinating that the T. Duseni aka "Yellow Tegu" pictures all have a burnt nose, like a blue does, yet without tear drop markings.

















I also find it amazing how so many people assume to know all about what classifications blues are without DNA testing to back it all up.


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## chelvis (Apr 2, 2012)

DNA testing would tell us nothing without anything to run it against. In other words we would need someone to go down to south America and sample Tagus from different locals. Even then it would take awhile to determined due to the amount of possible inbreeding and outcrossing the genetic "static" would be hard to get rid of.


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## reptastic (Apr 2, 2012)

I think its hard to say one way or the other because we simply just don't know, I wish there were more studies. And articles readily availible on wild tegus


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## Bntegus (Apr 2, 2012)

reptastic said:


> I think its hard to say one way or the other because we simply just don't know, I wish there were more studies. And articles readily availible on wild tegus



we dont no that much about tegus that is why we are all here. so where does this giant tegu come from? people are paying big money for something they no nothing about i just got a tegu wc from Florida that is 58inch and 21lb one week ago the point is we no nothing it is just what people read and believe there is no standard or proof.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Apr 2, 2012)

Can we get pics of some of your "high white black and white" blues? I'm 100% sure that high white black and whites come from breeding black and whites with a lot of white together, not from black and whites to blues.


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## james.w (Apr 2, 2012)

TegusRawsome80 said:


> Can we get pics of some of your "high white black and white" blues? I'm 100% sure that high white black and whites come from breeding black and whites with a lot of white together, not from black and whites to blues.



Are you 100% sure with proof that a "blue" is not just a high white B&W?


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## Bntegus (Apr 2, 2012)

james.w said:


> TegusRawsome80 said:
> 
> 
> > Can we get pics of some of your "high white black and white" blues? I'm 100% sure that high white black and whites come from breeding black and whites with a lot of white together, not from black and whites to blues.
> ...



agree.


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## RamblinRose (Apr 2, 2012)

Are you 100% sure with proof that a "blue" is just a high white B&W?


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## james.w (Apr 2, 2012)

RamblinRose said:


> Are you 100% sure with proof that a "blue" is just a high white B&W?



No, the issue to me is that nobody seems to know 100% either way. I'm not tryingng to argue or say anyone is wrong, just trying to bring out all the possibilities.


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## krazyeyez (Apr 3, 2012)

97.3% of all statistics are made up on the spot, remember that...
Can't say for all, or that some people aren't bewildered by farm breeders or wholesalers trying to make an extra buck, but I do know through my own research in verifying my cross, that blues have tell tail signs, such as the year drop below their eye... The one I have has extremely high contrast white, but she also has the year drop, transparent blue shift on her nose scales, and a little bit more of an attitude...which are are traits known to blues...
It was also explained to me that there were only 6 full blue Argentine's ever imported to the us. Subsequently, most blues are either bred down with whites, or the so called "powder blue" was a success of inbreeding to produce more noticeable atteibutes


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## Bntegus (Apr 3, 2012)

the big point here is that reptastic wants to breed a blue and b&w together and what will he get? and there was a lot more then 6 blues imported.


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## reptastic (Apr 3, 2012)

I am no breeder and have never bred tegus, but what I have noticed is tegus like humans tend to take after one or both parents, sometimes even grandparents, whith that said, if blues were really just high ~hite normals wouldn't they produce b/w offspring?I mean if you took 2 blues and bred them you'd get some normals


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## james.w (Apr 3, 2012)

You make a valid point. Has anyone bred a high white to high white? If so what was the outcome?


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## reptastic (Apr 3, 2012)

Rayne would be an example of that, both parents are high whites, I doubt she will be considering she. Turn dark and only moderately lightened up so far, she still has a lot of bright white to her after shed but we won't know what she is til for maybe another year


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## james.w (Apr 3, 2012)

Do you know what her clutch mates look like?


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## Bntegus (Apr 3, 2012)

i will be breeding 2 from different clutches this year one the female is from a male blue and female b&w and the male is from a b&w male and blue female and i will also breed the same male to a redxblue that is actually going on right now. and none of these tegus are from a breeder they are all wild caught.


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## james.w (Apr 3, 2012)

If they are WC how do you know they are blue x b&w crosses??


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Apr 3, 2012)

_What James said plus the hybrid :s

I don't think blues are the same as b&w's but who knows when we'll ever find out and I definitely don't think blues are just high white b&w. If that was the case why would the hatchlings be so different color? Why wouldn't they just be born high white and not go through the color changes that blues go through? Maybe from a morph stand point and a b&w could be het for blue. But if that was the case then the same should be for redxblue crosses. 

The only difference in that being, that reds have their own classification and blues don't,.. yet. But we all know the only way to find out is to breed'em. _


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## Bntegus (Apr 3, 2012)

sorry i didn't word it right i started out with all wc animals all these where bread in 2010 all the crosses and the blues i used where brought in 2008 yes blues do come in every year people just look in the wrong places lol there to worried about imports being bad so they just look right past them lol this is going to be a war. when ron first brought the blue to the us 4 females had albinos with 2 different males well there is 6 of them. there is no way 6 blues could breed that many in 13 years just my 2-cents do the math.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Apr 3, 2012)

I mean, logic is on your side on the importation issue, but I still completely disagree with blues being high white B&W's, mainly because if they were high white they would have a lot of white not a lot of blueish coloration...


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## Bntegus (Apr 3, 2012)

im not pointing any fingers at anyone but this is my 2-cents on tegu breeders they all feel they where the first one to breed something like color size morph cross pick any of them but what they forget to tell you is where there breeders came from they all have there little secrets there sells men. breeders can get mad at me all they want but it is the truth they always want to be the first one or the only one.


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## james.w (Apr 3, 2012)

Bntegus said:


> sorry i didn't word it right i started out with all wc animals all these where bread in 2010 all the crosses and the blues i used where brought in 2008 yes blues do come in every year people just look in the wrong places lol there to worried about imports being bad so they just look right past them lol this is going to be a war. when ron first brought the blue to the us 4 females had albinos with 2 different males well there is 6 of them. there is no way 6 blues could breed that many in 13 years just my 2-cents do the math.



So your blues were fresh imports? They were bred to black & whites that were also imports? And the red you bred to was also an import? Is this correct?


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Apr 3, 2012)

Bntegus said:


> sorry i didn't word it right i started out with all wc animals all these where bread in 2010 all the crosses and the blues i used where brought in 2008 yes blues do come in every year people just look in the wrong places lol there to worried about imports being bad so they just look right past them lol this is going to be a war. when ron first brought the blue to the us 4 females had albinos with 2 different males well there is 6 of them. *there is no way 6 blues could breed that many in 13 years just my 2-cents do the math. *



_With or with out the math over a 13yr period, why not? When they can lay 20 to 40 some odd eggs in a clutch. If Albino tegus were introduced around the same time as Blues then why are there not more or just as many Albinos as there are Blues? Or even hets for that matter. But that's a whole other issue. 13yrs is a a long time especially if females can and are bred within their first 1 1/2 to 2yrs, like some people do.

Like most breeders especially early in the program you sell off most of the males. hold back how ever many females you want to raise and breed those every year or so. That's not including the females that were sold. 

Of course most of it is speculation since not all make it to adult hood and breed but at the same time not many are needed with the amount of eggs just one female can have. Males are just donors and pretty much expendable, unless they have a trait you want to work with and try to pass on. _


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## krazyeyez (Apr 4, 2012)

As much as I hate to say it... Maybe the best source of info for those of you that are virtuous would be to talk to bobby hill at varnyard, or the guy that bought up 70% of agama's tegu stock when they went under.... I don't like farm breeders, for mNy reasons, but these guys know a lot about the basis of the genes, crosses, and what will happen when you do cross them... Bc they do it every year... Some new crosses come up when you mix one with another, look at max from tegutara, 5 dif colors... Look at varnyard's so called "all American", high white with lavendar hughes, which he claims came from a r/b cross and a high white.... 
You'll never know til you try it.... As for me, I'm waiting for a male with the same traits... I don't wanna mess with a beautiful cross


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Apr 4, 2012)

_I haven't seen any updated pics of Max,.. but what five different colors? He's just a red x b&w and the so called All American is just that, since that's the name they were given.

Hybrid tegus are still fairly new so the big breeders don't even know what will happen until it's done, that's part of the reason why they do it. To see what happens, hopefully get something new and or just different from the norm. 

Since we can't import Duseni maybe someone will breed something close to it or any of the other pics of different tegus we see but can't have._


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## reptastic (Apr 4, 2012)

Bntegus said:


> sorry i didn't word it right i started out with all wc animals all these where bread in 2010 all the crosses and the blues i used where brought in 2008 yes blues do come in every year people just look in the wrong places lol there to worried about imports being bad so they just look right past them lol this is going to be a war. when ron first brought the blue to the us 4 females had albinos with 2 different males well there is 6 of them. there is no way 6 blues could breed that many in 13 years just my 2-cents do the math.



Wait I'm confused, you got all of your tegus(blues) in 2008? I thought they were 13 years old?I have no clue as to the import of blues, honestly I don't see them readily availible enough to assume they are regularly imported, one would assume if imported you would see more ads for sale rather than wanted seeing as they are in high demand, I'm with bubblz with 4 females,(let's do the math) 4 females each lay 40 eggs, each clutch yeilds 20 females(that's 80) each one of those females do the same, hypothetically speaking that's 1,600 females produced in 2 generations, now imagine if some of the clutches produced more females than males, its entirely possible


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## TegusRawsome80 (Apr 4, 2012)

Can we see some pictures of your blues bnetegus?


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## Bntegus (Apr 4, 2012)

i have 3blues from 2008 thats not all of mine just the newest ones.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Apr 4, 2012)

Can you post some pictures of them?


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## Grendel (Apr 5, 2012)

Bntegus said:


> sorry i didn't word it right i started out with all wc animals all these where bread in 2010 all the crosses and the blues i used where brought in 2008 yes blues do come in every year people just look in the wrong places lol there to worried about imports being bad so they just look right past them lol this is going to be a war. when ron first brought the blue to the us 4 females had albinos with 2 different males well there is 6 of them. there is no way 6 blues could breed that many in 13 years just my 2-cents do the math.


Please give me an example of where one can get WC Blue tegus every year.


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## reptastic (Apr 5, 2012)

I would like to know also


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## Bntegus (Apr 5, 2012)

ok this is a little how it works when reptiles are imported here. as some of you already know there is a pick of litter we will call. i have a friend that well bring in tegus for me and i pick what i want and he sells the rest there is always good stuff that slips through i can ask for all b&w and get some blues some reds that is how blues first came here as really petty b&w it also cost a lot of money to do this you cant just say i want one lol. does this help im not good at writing as you can tell or spelling lol.


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## RamblinRose (Apr 5, 2012)

Ok, I am in need of some "really high" chest waders right now, if anyone would happen to have a pair for sale? Anyone who knows "anything" about where the USA blues originated from, know Blue Tegu at this time is an unsubscribed subspecies of tegu, their origin is from the Northern part of South America. Their original bloodline was found in a shipment of Colombian tegus. At that time, there were only 6 that came in with that original shipment.


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## Bntegus (Apr 5, 2012)

RamblinRose said:


> Ok, I am in need of some "really high" chest waders right now, if anyone would happen to have a pair for sale? Anyone who knows "anything" about where the USA blues originated from, know Blue Tegu at this time is an unsubscribed subspecies of tegu, their origin is from the Northern part of South America. Their original bloodline was found in a shipment of Colombian tegus. At that time, there were only 6 that came in with that original shipment.



lol where did you here that from i dont even think you have a clue what you are talking about please school me and prove that only 6 where brought in with t.teguixin lol


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## james.w (Apr 5, 2012)

I know someone that breeds blues regularly.


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## RamblinRose (Apr 5, 2012)

Bntegus, 
Stop trying to classify something you know nothing of. And if you think your so intelligent .....where have you been for so long if you been doing all the things with Tegus you say you have. You are virtually an unknown.
You feel the need for proof, make some contact with the man who originally got them & he can explain all you are saying that is so wrong, and in SO many ways. So, where is all the proof of anything you have been saying... better yet, where are all those pictures everyone wants to see? Ya, I didn't think so...

I really do apologize to everyone else on tegutalk, but it just keeps getting deeper & deeper.


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## reptastic (Apr 5, 2012)

Bntegus did you know they were actually classified as tTeguxin for awhile because of that, look it up


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## Bntegus (Apr 5, 2012)

RamblinRose said:


> Bntegus,
> Stop trying to classify something you know nothing of. And if you think your so intelligent .....where have you been for so long if you been doing all the things with Tegus you say you have. You are virtually an unknown.
> You feel the need for proof, make some contact with the man who originally got them & he can explain all you are saying that is so wrong, and in SO many ways. So, where is all the proof of anything you have been saying... better yet, where are all those pictures everyone wants to see? Ya, I didn't think so...
> 
> ...


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## reptastic (Apr 5, 2012)

Blank message


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## james.w (Apr 5, 2012)

reptastic said:


> Bntegus did you know they were actually classified as tTeguxin for awhile because of that, look it up



Any chance you or RamblinRose have any links with information about the origin of the blues in the states?


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## TeguBuzz (Apr 5, 2012)

RamblinRose said:


> Ok, I am in need of some "really high" chest waders right now, if anyone would happen to have a pair for sale? Anyone who knows "anything" about where the USA blues originated from, know Blue Tegu at this time is an unsubscribed subspecies of tegu, their origin is from the Northern part of South America. Their original bloodline was found in a shipment of Colombian tegus. At that time, there were only 6 that came in with that original shipment.



I've got chest waders.. Non breathable though, so they smell terrible even after being hand washed regularly.


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## RamblinRose (Apr 5, 2012)

I've got chest waders.. Non breathable though, so they smell terrible even after being hand washed regularly. 
[/quote]

LOL, those would do.


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## reptastic (Apr 5, 2012)

james.w said:


> reptastic said:
> 
> 
> > Bntegus did you know they were actually classified as tTeguxin for awhile because of that, look it up
> ...



I remember reading about it like 4 years ago, were? Idk, best bet is if anyonewants details, Ron st.pierre is the guy you want to talk too


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## laurarfl (Apr 5, 2012)

Just some interesting stuff, but I don't know if it is anything new:

2007 http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/printthread.php?t=105270&pp=5

2006 http://www.newenglandreptile.com/forums/showthread.php?4855-Poor-Unclassified-Blue-Tegus....&p=40042

lol, check out the mislabelled photos and no mention of a blue tegu http://www.reptilia.net/articulos_ing/027.pdf

2007 http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1269218,1272761

2007 http://www.thetegu.com/showthread.php?4391-Blue-Tegu-Research
I feel bad posting this last one. It was the ultimate split that created two tegu forums. However, it has interesting information.


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## reptastic (Apr 5, 2012)

Thank you laura


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## Bntegus (Apr 5, 2012)

lol ok i give up that the truth.


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## Wil (Apr 5, 2012)

http://forum.kingsnake.com/tegu/messages/6713.html Here is something that I find interesting. This post is over 10 years old, even though this isn't straight from Ron, it still shows that where they came from didn't just start a few years ago. If I remember right there was something in the Vivarium about Ron and the blues. I'll have to see if I have that one or not. If I do, I'll scan it.

Bntegus, so are you saying all of the blues you have are wild caught? I am a bit confused with some of your posts. Thanks.


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## james.w (Apr 5, 2012)

Well, after reading all of the links posted, I still don't see any proof of where exactly the blues came from or how many actually first came in. There is no proof of anything about them, all of it is Tom said this and Jim said that. 

This all goes back to as Dana calls it "some guy/girl told me syndrome". Seems like a lot of "I heard this so it must be true".


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## reptastic (Apr 5, 2012)

Like I said before if you really wanna know, go to the source


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## james.w (Apr 5, 2012)

reptastic said:


> Like I said before if you really wanna know, go to the source



Well you act like you know, so have you spoke to the source? Who is the source?


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## Wil (Apr 5, 2012)

The source would be Ron St. Pierre.


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## james.w (Apr 5, 2012)

wil said:


> The source would be Ron St. Pierre.



He is the one who accidentally received them. The source would be whoever shipped them. Ron doesn't know the origin of them either.


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## Wil (Apr 5, 2012)

Any chance you have any links with information about Ron not knowing their origin?


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## james.w (Apr 5, 2012)

From what I read on the fauna link Laura posted I got that impression considering he called them teguixin. Am I wrong in my thinking?


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## TegusRawsome80 (Apr 5, 2012)

I've seen 2 blues for sale advertised as wild caught in the past two or three years if that helps. I don't know if they were really CB or what but they were blues and were advertised as WC.


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## Wil (Apr 5, 2012)

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't black and whites classified as teguixin during that time? I may be wrong, but I know that they were at one time and then later changed to merianae. In all reality he probably is the only one that could shed any light on this. As far as I am concerned, I really don't care where they came from, I'm just glad they are here. I also doubt that they are imported on a regular basis due to the fact that if they were, all the flippers would be selling them because they could get more money for them.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Apr 5, 2012)

I don't know if they're imported regularly but Predator Reptiles in AZ and Glades Herps have in the past couple of years sold blues advertised as WC.


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## Wil (Apr 5, 2012)

Here is the problem. People could advertise them as wc to make a sale because of all the fuss that has been made about inbreeding, someone buys it thinking that it would be new blood. Just a thought to ponder.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Apr 6, 2012)

Neither of these sites had them listed on any reptile classifieds other than their websites and neither were very expensive. The female from Glades looked W/C too, so I don't know.


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## laurarfl (Apr 6, 2012)

When you start getting into some of these stories, all you have is third party information. Since none of us were actually there, of course we have "he said, she said." It's a bit of detective work to piece together a puzzle.

And I'm not saying this is what happened, but let's just suppose a "what if" scenario. Let's say that somewhere in the line, something that could possibly be a little less than perfectly legal occurred. Well then, that paper trail may be so covered up that you'll never know the real deal. Now you're talking about a federal offense and no one is giving out any info.

So, all we can do is go back and read the old stories, discuss them, and draw our own conclusions.

Also, we do know that blues are still being imported. There was a group that was imported into the UK recently. Glades has CITES papers, Glades goes to Europe for trade shows or can import. That's believable to me. But I don't think there are mass quantities of them being imported into the US.


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## Bntegus (Apr 6, 2012)

laurarfl said:


> When you start getting into some of these stories, all you have is third party information. Since none of us were actually there, of course we have "he said, she said." It's a bit of detective work to piece together a puzzle.
> 
> And I'm not saying this is what happened, but let's just suppose a "what if" scenario. Let's say that somewhere in the line, something that could possibly be a little less than perfectly legal occurred. Well then, that paper trail may be so covered up that you'll never know the real deal. Now you're talking about a federal offense and no one is giving out any info.
> 
> ...





i bought some blues form rons first clutch and at that time there was only the six but he got more imports after that so i really cant say how many are brought in but it is a lot more then six. also when i said i have got them in as imports i dont mean 200 of them i have 4 imports and i have looked at a lot of import b&w brought in to find what i have.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Apr 6, 2012)

Can you post any pictures of your blues?


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