# Is this a load of hooey? (PICTURES added)



## Moofins (Apr 11, 2011)

Sorry to be bugging everyone with my incessant questions, but I spoke to an employee about buying a B&W from All Reptiles and I need to know if they are trying to play me for a fool.

So the conversation went something along these lines:

Me: "So that would be approximately $160-$170 for a black and white?"
Employee: "Yes, that is correct."
Me: "Okay, perfect. So how much would you need for a deposit on the animal? Half?"
Employee: "Twenty-five percent."
Me: "Great. If I were to send you that, could you reserve a male for me?"
Employee: "Oh.. Well, once the sex is known, the value of the animal is substantially higher. It would be closer to $300."
Me: "... Ooookay."
Employee: "And we don't do sexing here. We don't sex any young lizards."
Me: "Why is that? And so, if I were to buy one from you, it's a 'you get what you get' sort of deal?"
Employee: "We don't sex hatchlings because they have too much goin' on down there, y'know? They're really young and it could cause too much damage. You can't sex a hatchling lizard."
Me: "How would I get a male from you, then, if I were to pay the $300?"
Employee: "We would have to hold onto it until it's sexually mature. Then we can tell if it's male or female. What's the attraction for getting a male, anyway, do you have a female?"
Me: "No, I would just prefer a male."


He then carried on about how "bigger is not always better" and therefore, I don't need a male. At this point, I was quite peeved and just wanted to relay the guy my info and hang up. I really want a male, simply because I prefer a bulkier-looking animal. Big guys have always been much more adorable to me.

Anywho. Back to the sexing. Is this guy yanking my chain? How else would someone like Bobby Hill ship a hatchling tegu as a guaranteed male or female? He HAS to sex it, so this seems ridiculous. Input, please!


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## frost (Apr 11, 2011)

*RE: Is this a load of hooey?*

i think hes a douch....if you want a tegu get it from bobby.it might not be 100% but its the best deal by far from anyone.i dont trust anyone really. and charging 300 for a certain sex is a ripoff.


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## Strange_Evil (Apr 11, 2011)

*RE: Is this a load of hooey?*

They are right about probing a hatchling could be dangerous. But to my knowledge females and male tegu's of similar age go for the same amount. If anything he should charge more for the male being they get bigger,and it would take around 1yr or so before they can actually determine the sex of the animal just by looking at it,and with probing i am not sure but a guess would be around 5months or more.

Bobby *i think*,take's educated guess on the sex,he bases it on physical traits,like head size/shape. Which is why he is not always 100% right.but mostly he is. Not sure if that's how he does it,but being he ships out around 2weeks of age,i would guess so.

Sounds like the dude is trying to make more money to me. If i'm wrong please someone correct me.

And getting one from Bobby would be best, Unfortunately i don't think he ship's out of the U.S. But buying from a reputable breeder or from someone sure of the sex for a decent price,would be best.


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## Moondust (Apr 11, 2011)

*RE: Is this a load of hooey?*

You can get an all american, giant, or red for about that price....that makes no sense....bobby charges the same whether or not its female or male...they are completely trying to rip you off. The whole sexing thing though, it's hard to tell when their younger. I talked to bobby because i wanted a female, and he's pretty good at sexing so I trust his judgement....but it's true that you wont reallly know if its a girl or boy until its sexually mature, or rather....just bigger in general.


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## Kebechet (Apr 11, 2011)

*RE: Is this a load of hooey?*

I hear the females can be more territorial and nasty too. My male is really chill most of the time. I'm going to second that you get one from Bobby. You know where it's coming from then, have an idea of its lineage, and it should be free of health issues. I think the person you talked to isn't aware that you can sex Tegus without "popping" them, to check for hemipenes. Mine had developed the little BB's by his vent at a pretty young age. He was supposedly 2 or 3 months old when I got him- I got mine from a reptile store though and have no idea of what stock he came from, or his actual age. You wouldn't have that problem if you bought from Bobby or another reputable breeder.


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## james.w (Apr 11, 2011)

*RE: Is this a load of hooey?*

I would say if you don't trust him or aren't happy with his way of business, buy from someone else. I wouldn't buy from anyone that guarantees sex on a hatchling though.


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## slideaboot (Apr 11, 2011)

*RE: Is this a load of hooey?*

Easy solution...you don't feel comfortable with this guy and you KNOW where to get quality tegus...why bother with this guy or company? I'd much rather buy a product from someone who specializes in that product and has a strong understanding of the product as opposed to someone who merely sells the product because they sell other, similar products.


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## Moofins (Apr 11, 2011)

*RE: Is this a load of hooey?*

Thanks for all the input, everyone.

I had already spoken to Bobby over the phone a couple of weeks ago, and unfortunately, we both mutually decided that it would be too much hassle and WAY too expensive to ship one of his (glorious) tegus to me, here in Canada. The forms, the fees, etc. It's just too much.

The ONLY success I have had so far in finding a decent carrier of tegus is this All Reptiles store... they would not disclose the names of the breeders they get them from, so I can't determine their reputation and reliability. Also, no luck online when it comes to looking for Canadian tegu breeders... Well, I DID find one, but she seems to have just started and has yet to produce a clutch.

I'm wanting a tegu so bad... I want to call them back and try to haggle, but I also don't want to burn the only bridge I have. If I tick them off, then what, y'know? Sigh. Maybe if I relay those physical traits they could check for, like Bobby does? It wouldn't be a for sure sexing, so they couldn't charge me more even if they did make a plausible conclusion. Right?


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## teguboy77 (Apr 11, 2011)

*RE: Is this a load of hooey?*

Honestly it sounds like hes trying to pool a fast one,and as somebody else said if your not sure about buying the tegu i wouldn't.But i've bought alot of tegus in 9 years of working with them and that price is high for a hatchling.


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## Moofins (Apr 11, 2011)

*RE: Is this a load of hooey?*

Hey again, everyone. One of the employees I have been corresponding with (not the one who gave me the bogus policy on price changes after sexing) has JUST sent me some pictures.

These are supposedly black and whites (or maybe it's all the same one) they had in their store last summer:


















Do they look healthy? Skinny? Is the browning on their heads and necks just the green starting to fade away? I am judging by the paleness of the tail that they were going into shed... Again, thanks for putting up with me! :blush:


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Apr 11, 2011)

_From those pics alone I would pass,.. on top of that,.. would be the experience you have already had with them and not feeling comfortable about it. They refuse to provide info on where the baby came from and it doesn't look very well taken care of. I know its a pet shop but just like everything else some are better than others. 

It looks under weight and dehydrated to me and is in the process of loosing a bit of its tail. Where you can clearly see retained shed in the first pic at the end of its tail. Just another sign of improper care. 

But all in all the final decision is yours and whether you're willing to wait for some thing better to come along. Which it eventually will or go for what they have now. _


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## Moondust (Apr 11, 2011)

They look very skinny to me...the base of its tail doesnt look too fat...the browning on its head is because its about to shed, or is trying to shed...they probably dont have enough humidity in the cage because it looks a little dehydrated.


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## Moofins (Apr 11, 2011)

Man, this is going to be a tough decision... I have had no other success in finding B&W 'gus in Canada. But now that I know the tegus they have are not in the best condition, as silly and idiotic as it sounds, it makes me want one MORE. It appeals to my nurturing personality. I want to take it in and give it the best.

My beardie was given to me at five years of age - poorly stunted, never fed properly, missing the tip of his tail, several mangled toes, crooked tail, and some weird black patch of a scar on his beard that never goes away, even when he's not irritated and is completely calm. I take pride and joy in giving him the life he never had. More crickets and squash than he could ever eat, proper supplements, lighting. I WANT this tegu because I KNOW I can do better than them.

That's my rant. I'm done. :s


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## turtlepunk (Apr 11, 2011)

Moofins, i think its COMPLETELY AWESOME of you to care enough to take in a sick animal to nurse it back to health!! HIGH FIVE! =)
I just recently rescued some BABY red eared sliders from an acquaintance of mine. She got them from one of those vendors in china town here in LA, CA. She gave them to me because they are sick. (DUH! shes been keeping them in that tiny plastic container with all water, no heat, and no uvb) One has severe soft shell syndrome and it has affected his ability to walk or swim properly. But he's still active and eats fine. They are out getting in some REAL SUN as i type this. IM taking them to the vet to get checked out. Hopefully a High calcium diet, CLEAN water, lots of heat and uvb rays will help lots. =)
As for your situation, I think it would be super cool of you to take the little guy home. Especially since you mentioned its hard finding them.


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## slideaboot (Apr 11, 2011)

Why on earth do they need to send you pics of tegus they had almost a year ago when you're trying to buy a tegu now? That sounds a bit weird...


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## Toby_H (Apr 11, 2011)

First off, I disagree with the "bad guy" claim most others are suggesting. It is very true that sexing young Tegus is very difficult and very very few people can accurately do so. It just so happens Bobby is that darn good. This should not discredit the dealer you are talking with, it should credit Bobby as being the best amongst the best...
 
If the only way they can sex a Tegu is to raise it for a year to a year and a half, then it surely makes sense they would chanrge more for that animal as they would have to care for it for a year to a year and a half... 

I agree that the animal pictured above looks sickly. While it does give many people warm fuzzies inside to rescue a sick or poorly cared for animal, there are some very real points to consider. If the seller is turning healthy animals into sick animals and you purchase that animal from him, you are supporting his poor practices. The simple reality is most "rescues" simply desine more animals to suffer, because buying that "rescue" supports the person who neglects animals to stay in business. 

I think it is very fair to insist on seeing pictures of the animal you will be buying. This is not a rational demand when spending $10 on a lizard, but is very valid when spending $150+. Personally, I would also ask the animal be photo'ed on a current newspaper with the date exposed to ensure it is a current pic.


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## Moofins (Apr 12, 2011)

slideaboot said:


> Why on earth do they need to send you pics of tegus they had almost a year ago when you're trying to buy a tegu now? That sounds a bit weird...



These are the only photos they had of previous Argentines, and they can't yet send me current ones because they haven't received them... This purchase isn't happening for another few months or so. I have a lot of time to ponder. Hahah.


Toby_H said:


> First off, I disagree with the "bad guy" claim most others are suggesting. It is very true that sexing young Tegus is very difficult and very very few people can accurately do so. It just so happens Bobby is that darn good. This should not discredit the dealer you are talking with, it should credit Bobby as being the best amongst the best...
> 
> If the only way they can sex a Tegu is to raise it for a year to a year and a half, then it surely makes sense they would chanrge more for that animal as they would have to care for it for a year to a year and a half...
> 
> ...



Thank you very much, Toby. I appreciate your insight. That's a great idea with the newspaper as well. I'll be sure to ask as soon as I receive word that they've gotten the little ones in.

Should I also be as blunt as to mention that "I've" noticed (since you guys were the ones who pointed it out, thank you!) how unhealthy the baby 'gus looked? Maybe it would give them a jumpstart to keep a closer eye on their tegu husbandry. If we all start showing how few of us are really as gullible as they want to believe we are, then maybe that's the key to pet stores taking better care of their animals.


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## james.w (Apr 12, 2011)

I agree with Toby, but there are a couple reasons the animal may look the way it is. It could be a fresh import or if it is CB, the breeder may have sent it to them that way. Or maybe they just take poor care of their animals. Do you know if they are imports or CB tegus?


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## Moofins (Apr 12, 2011)

james.w said:


> I agree with Toby, but there are a couple reasons the animal may look the way it is. It could be a fresh import or if it is CB, the breeder may have sent it to them that way. Or maybe they just take poor care of their animals. Do you know if they are imports or CB tegus?



I couldn't tell you even if I wanted to - they have refused to disclose breeder information to me. Although, they have said they take tegus from "several" breeders...

While I was hunting around I DID find yet another store. Squamata Reptiles, yet again in Ontario. The man I spoke to seemed MUCH more interested in helping me out and getting me my tegu. He doesn't often carry B&Ws (although he does have experience with them), but he said that when he goes to a reptile expo scheduled for near the end of May, he will hunt around for a couple breeders to supply him in June/July. This one sounds much more promising.

One last bit: the guy from Squamata also said that when he DID have tegus, he got them from a "Grant" at "National Reptile Supply". Does that mean anything to anyone?


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## Toby_H (Apr 12, 2011)

I think you should find out about the Expo... and find the breeder(s) yourself...

Most quality breeders are proud of their work and are happy to talk about them, but most middle men want to keep the breeder informaiton quite so you don't cut out the middle man...

I have never heard of "National Reptile Supply", but based on the name alone, it sounds like a "flipper" meaning someone who purchases animals from private breeders and then distributes them to stores. "Flippers" generally get bad mouthed in the hobby, often unfairly. Buying and reselling animals is not a bad thing in any way, but many "Flippers" fail to offer proper care to the animals that are in their care. These "Flippers" are the ones that give all "Flippers" a bad name.


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## Rhetoric (Apr 12, 2011)

I would pass on the first place you talked to. I agree with most of the info people have given you about them. I can sort of see why they wouldn't "disclose breeder info" if they feel they would be losing business but at the same time you should have every right to know where your tegu came from and the conditions its been kept in.
I think that sexing is more of a guess when they are younger, some people that have been in the field probably have a better guess since they've been around so many little ones but its still a 50-50%. 
I haven't heard of the second people you listed either but if you are interested still make sure youre asking every question you can think of, even if it seems dumb. Tegus aren't cheap and you want to make sure you're getting not only what you pay for but also what you want, hopefully its going to be with you a long time.
I also agree with the expo, if theres one soon you can check it out, you might not see any tegu breeders but there will probably be someone who can refer you to someone. I don't think I'll have any luck finding anything for you but I'll keep an eye out.


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## Moofins (Apr 13, 2011)

Hm, "Flippers"... That's not encouraging. I googled it and found a website, of sorts, but you need a username and password to get past the main page, so it definitely sounds like a distributor.

I would LOVE to go to a large expo, however, that's more than halfway across the country for me... That's why my hopes are lying with Sam at Squamata to talk to some breeders for me. Right now, he sounds more like a friend trying to do someone a favor, rather than a middleman whose only concern is profit. That's what I'm hoping, anyway...


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## Rhetoric (Apr 13, 2011)

It sounds like the second guy is trying to help you out as best he can. I'm sure you've already done it but try googling reviews for the place in ontario. You've still got a couple months before most of the tegus start hatching anyway. Keep in touch with the ontario guy and hopefully he is really trying to do a good thing.


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