# Gold vs Black and White



## dragonmetalhead (Mar 4, 2012)

So after talking with a number of reptile owners, professional herpers, and a biologist who has worked with tegus, there seems to be a strong belief that the Colombian gold tegu is not the same species as the Colombian black and white. The former is well known for aggression and T. teguixin's bad reputation as a whole, but many people say they have never observed any of this stereotypical behavior in the black and whites. Seeing as the taxonomy of the genus Tupinambis is pretty convoluted, it honestly wouldn't surprise me if this turned out to be the case. What are your guys' thoughts?


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 4, 2012)

_I don't consider them to be the same but that's just my opinion. Like a lot of tegu issues it hasn't been proven one way or another. Like others they have physical differences beyond just their color. Most people think that the Gold is more of a color morph or regional type of the Colombian and vice versa.

They have different personalities and some are harder and easier to work with than others. Most of their bad reputation comes from hear say, people who haven't had one and don't want to put in the extra time they require. 
On top of not doing their research before hand then ending up with something other than what they were told it was or should be.

I don't think he's a member here but El Cadejo had or has one of each. He posted pics of both in this thread and you can see the differences.

http://www.thetegu.com/showthread.php?10810-ID-help-please-check-this-out

But I've seen tegus that look like they could be a mix of both Colombian and Golden. Usually the deciding factor for me between the two is the leg pattern. With Colombians it's usually black with yellow or white dots in Goldens it looks reversed. Like the base color is yellow or gold with black dots or blotches.

There's a huge difference between Colombians and B&Ws once you know what to look for but some people still call them the same. But the only thing that's B&W on a Colombian is their tail rings. Some Goldens don't have any white, down to their tail rings it's more yellow/gold and black instead of white._


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## reptastic (Mar 4, 2012)

This I my opinion, I look at all tegus as seperate, ie columbian b/w's, golds as well as the argentines, when I think about the tegu morph debates it makes me think of reptiles who have what I consider true morphs, ie leopard geckos and beardies


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## monstruo-the-tegu (Mar 4, 2012)

i think arggentine b/w tegu are the best in my opinon but ive always wanted to see if columbians deserve the rep they have


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## reptastic (Mar 4, 2012)

Munstro the definately don't, the problem is we see a lot of wild caught columbians because no one (known) is breeding them readily in captivity, so of course a wc animal is going to be more aggresive than one that's cb, I had a comubian that was just as sweet as my argentines, I know a few people that have beautiful tame columbians bubblz being one of them


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## dragonmetalhead (Mar 4, 2012)

Kodo is super-tame and friendly. Kind of high strung at times, likes to walk around more than sit in one spot, but as easy going and mellow as they come. He has never displayed ANY sign of aggression. No hissing, no gaping, not even a single tail whip. He doesn't eat aggressively either. Nothing I read about Colombian tegus seems to apply to Kodo, except size. After this tegu experience, I have to say I am now biased towards Colombians (especially since they don't hibernate). Kodo is hands down the best reptile I've had in 20 years of keeping herps.


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## reptastic (Mar 4, 2012)

Dragonmetalhead idk how I forgot about you and kodo, he is a gorgeous tegu


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## dragonmetalhead (Mar 5, 2012)

reptastic said:


> Dragonmetalhead idk how I forgot about you and kodo, he is a gorgeous tegu



It's okay, man. Thank you for the compliment.


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## laurarfl (Mar 6, 2012)

I have two super tame Colombian B/W. I don't believe gold and b/w varieties are a different species. At best, a subspecies. But I'm not a classification biologist, so what do I really know? I think a lot of reptiles begin as regional variants and end up classified as separate species. I'm not quite sure what the value in that is. "A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet".


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## dragonmetalhead (Mar 6, 2012)

Somebody should to some genetic testing. If anyone knows of someone doing research like this, we Colombian owners should send in samples to help clarify thing. Feces, saliva swabs, shed skin, etc. In order to avoid the "black and white" confusion, I refer to T. teguixin as the C olombian tegu, T. merianae as the Argentine tegu, and T. rufescens as the red tegu. Scientific vs common names is such a pain in the cloaca.


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## monstruo-the-tegu (Mar 6, 2012)

this is very confusing to me o__0


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## m3s4 (Mar 6, 2012)

monstruo-the-tegu said:


> this is very confusing to me o__0



I've had both a black & gold and black & white colombian. I don't think they are a sub-species of one another - just variants. 

Either you have/get a colombian that is black and white, or one that is black and gold. My gold always seemed more spooked and skittish, as well as more prone to gape then the black and white. Is this due to specific personalities or variants? Due to both in part? Who knows. 

Two things are certain: they are both colombian tegus and they both differ from argentinian's. They both come from, in and around Colombia. Because the equator runs through the bottom of Colombia, perhaps black and white colombians are found in this region or vice-versa....?

I'm assuming the reason for markings, patterns, coloring and behavioral patterns is strictly due to geographic location(s) of each. 

At the end of the day I don't think anyone has conclusive evidence regarding this matter. Either way, you either have a gold or black and white.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 6, 2012)

_Do you have pics of a B&W Colombian?_


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## m3s4 (Mar 6, 2012)

Bubblz Calhoun said:


> _Do you have pics of a B&W Colombian?_



I do, I just haven't uploaded any of them. 

No need for me to do that however because you can do a 2 minute search for black and white colombian tegu and find 100's of them. 

They look identical to golds except instead of being black and yellow they are black and white. And I don't mean off-yellow, or tan, or beige markings I mean WHITE. 

Both have black bodies and are either colored with (yellow) or (white) specks, spots, lines or combos and variations of all the above. 

How have you never seen a colombian black and white tegu? From what I've seen, they are much more common then the golds. 

Outback reptiles is selling 2 black and whites. They are also listed as colombian black and whites. They're on kingsnake classifieds as we speak. 

LLLReptile.com listed the 2 I just purchased as gold tegus. That's exactly what they were. They look identical to the picture displayed in their add. 

Clearly there are (2) types of colombians, even if it's just color variations and I along with many other people including professionals in the trade recognize this. 



Bubblz Calhoun said:


> _Do you have pics of a B&W Colombian?_



Ok so here's what a 2 minute search reveals on the colombian black and whites:





sub-adult

and 




juvenile

finally the golds:




juvenile




sub-adult

Clearly they are different. It's very distinct. It takes one look at each. 

And no, the whites don't turn yellow as they get older. They stay black and white - it's what they are: black and white colombian tegus.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 6, 2012)

_Practically every Colombian I have seen has been yellow and black. Some may have a little bit of white creeping up the sides but not enough for them to be called and confused with B&W T Merianae. Cameras and flash can wash out the color to make them look whiter than they really are, along with age and husbandry. Does that make them B&W's because the color is washed out,.. no. 

I have not seen a Colombian B&W because as far as I'm concerned they don't exist. I've seen what some people like to call and or refer to as Colombian B&W's but are just Colombians to me or Teguixin, Gold or Colombian. 

Teguixin is not the same as T. Merianae, once again the only tegu that is actually and should be called B&W. They are called B&W's because of their dorsal stripes which a lot of Colombians lack and or break up over time. 
So why continue to call them the same thing and support people that do. There for supporting people getting ripped off when they buy Teguixin because they were told and it was sold as a B&W. Colombian, Colombian Teguixin, Gold, Gold Teguixin but not B&W. Yes some of them still have black and white rings on their tail but look at the bigger picture.

As if it's not confusing enough we still have people that insist on adding to that confusion instead of help clear it up.

I agree the first two pics are Colombian and I still see yellow coloration on both and the last two are Golds. I'm not saying they are the same,.. my issues is why continue to call them B&W's and add to the confusion with T Merianae.

_


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## m3s4 (Mar 6, 2012)

Ok. So you don't want confusion with argentinian b&w's. I get that. 

Problem is, not all common colombian's are gold (black and yellow). Not all are black and white. However, there's definitely enough of both floating around the pet trade, in shops, at shows, in farms and out in the wild to warrant calling them by what they are.

And let's not get into color wash-out, that's getting into technicalities that we can't verify. The pics I chose were random and they both illustrate 1) common tegus 2) black and whites 3) black and golds 4) my point

So there has to be something to distinguish them and their differences. Lucky for us, there is color.

If they were red and white, we'd call them that. If they were purple and pink we'd call them that. Unfortunately, they aren't. They are gold, or *black* and white. Because there are argentinian b&w's, there can be some confusion - but only IF YOU GO BY COLOR and not _*species*_. If a person does that when talking about or purchasing a tegu, that's their own fault. 

*Let's put it this way; if I want a black corvette I call it a black corvette, even though they have red ones, which I call red. They are both vettes. They are both chevy's. Chevy also makes black volts. And red ones too. I specified a black chevy vette, not a black chevy volt even though chevy makes both. Ones a black vette ones a black volt. See the logic? 
*
Lizards are no different. 

There clearly is a color difference between gold tegus and black and whites and until someone in the trade designates a new name for BLACK AND WHITE COMMON TEGUS, they will be called just that and I for one, am not confused by it. 

I understand you don't want to see confusion with the argentinian b&w's, but I'm calling a spade a spade here. 

Sorry man, there is a common gold tegu, common black and white tegu and an argentinian black and white. 

I'm fortunate enough to have had all 3 and purchased each knowing fully what they all were prior to purchase.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 6, 2012)

_They have their own name Tupinambis Teguixin = Colombian/Gold Tegu not B&W so why not use it. Considering the fact that T. Merianae use to be refered to as Teguixin that would make the Common B&W Tegu, T. Merianae not Colombian._


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## MadameButterfly (Mar 7, 2012)

I can't speak for B&W's but my gold is still very aggressive to the point now where it is almost impossible to handle her because she bounces around so much that I am afraid she will hurt herself if I push it to far, no matter what I try she literally goes nuts if I get to close, I've tried to follow all the advice on here and nothing seems to work with her, it's like she's posessed at times lol

The general opinion seems to be that they calm down as they get older but right now I can't seem to gain her trust at all. I'm moving to a bigger house soon which will give me more room to work with her which I'm hoping will help because no matter how bad it gets I won't give up on her but I'm even dreading the day of moving because I will have to move her to a smaller tank so that I can take her tank apart to fit it in a car and it's not the biting that botheres me (I'm use to it now) it's the worry that she is going to do herself some serious damage especially after she had that prolapse.


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## laurarfl (Mar 7, 2012)

When tegus were becoming popular as pets, T teguixin were generally black and white colored. It seems that in the past two-three years, they have been mostly gold/yellow and black. They used to commonly be called Colombians, or Colombian B/W. It was a widely accepted name. When the yellow variety came on the market in abundance, everyone called them gold tegus and tried to drop the Colombian association altogether to market them as something completely different. I'm sure it was the negative reputation they were trying to avoid. Chester is tamer than many Argentines. Oreo is W/C I'm sure. I had to work with here in the beginning, but she's a sweetie, too.

The older variety b/w Colombian tegu aka T teguixin

Chester





Oreo


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## m3s4 (Mar 7, 2012)

MadameButterfly said:


> I can't speak for B&W's but my gold is still very aggressive to the point now where it is almost impossible to handle her because she bounces around so much that I am afraid she will hurt herself if I push it to far, no matter what I try she literally goes nuts if I get to close, I've tried to follow all the advice on here and nothing seems to work with her, it's like she's posessed at times lol
> 
> The general opinion seems to be that they calm down as they get older but right now I can't seem to gain her trust at all. I'm moving to a bigger house soon which will give me more room to work with her which I'm hoping will help because no matter how bad it gets I won't give up on her but I'm even dreading the day of moving because I will have to move her to a smaller tank so that I can take her tank apart to fit it in a car and it's not the biting that botheres me (I'm use to it now) it's the worry that she is going to do herself some serious damage especially after she had that prolapse.



It took me a good 2 years to tame my gold. I would definitely agree that time is on your side and as they mature and grow older. They tend to lose that skittishness. Unlike most argentinians, colombians like to jump and they're just plain fast. When they're young and small, they're extremely agile but as they fatten up and grow, that begins to change. 

Sam, my gold, was tame enough to hold and walk around outside w/out a harness. 

I took an extreme liking to him because he was such a handful early on, but with time and persistence, he became a super cool tegu. 

I recall being so worried the day I let him roam free in a local park - I thought he'd dart off and be gone...To my surprise he just lounged around in the sun like my arg. b&w...To the point he was so mellow I was completely shocked. I felt bad because I never let him run free (outside) before that. He had me fooled thinking the whole time he would need to be harnassed (which he hated)

A couple children came up and he let them both rub on him. Again, I was amazed. 

Commons are remarkable tegus, I definitely have a fondness for them that I don't have with the args - maybe it's the fact they always have a little bit of that feistyness in them...Gotta love rubbing them on the head, with their eyes closed while they hiss...Funny stuff. 

Your tegu will come around...Just give it time and honestly, when they are really hyper - put them in a tub of warm water and let them swim around while you rub on them. When they are swimming they can't dart off and instead are forced to be close to you and your touch. It worked on Sam.


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## laurarfl (Mar 7, 2012)

I love that little huffy hissy noise they make. Very endearing.


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## MadameButterfly (Mar 7, 2012)

m3s4 said:


> MadameButterfly said:
> 
> 
> > I can't speak for B&W's but my gold is still very aggressive to the point now where it is almost impossible to handle her because she bounces around so much that I am afraid she will hurt herself if I push it to far, no matter what I try she literally goes nuts if I get to close, I've tried to follow all the advice on here and nothing seems to work with her, it's like she's posessed at times lol
> ...



My biggest problem now is where I live only has a shower so I have been using a kitty litter tray for her baths but where I am moving to has a big bath so I can put her in that then and keep it warm and spend more time bonding then, I didn't really realise when I first got her how much where I live at the moment would restrict her. When I move I'll have a whole room for her and a en-suite bathroom and the only thing in the room will be hers and my snakes enclousures so I can let her roam free then rather than how it is now where half my stuff is packed up and everytime she gets out she hides behind or under everything and I have to go find her lol


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## Hybrid (Mar 10, 2012)

In the fish hobby many people use scientific name. Geres an example of how it could be used, teguixin 'gold' or teguixin 'b&w' or merianae 'b&w' or 'blue' or 'chacoan giant'.

sorry on my phone so its difficult to type


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## laurarfl (Mar 10, 2012)

Tarantulas are the same way.


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## m3s4 (Apr 5, 2012)

There are many that consider the gold tegu and the black and white colombian to be the same, some claim they are different species. I had thought so, but I also thought they could be variants, and due to different geographical locals, may have just been different colors. 

Now I'm never one to just believe one site or one source of information, but if what this site claims is true, then although they are both called "colombians" the gold tegu is a different species then the black and white. 

So while visiting some sites today I came across this on cityreptiles.com

_Quote "Tegus are then broken down into individual Species. There are presently four recognized and one unrecognized species. The four recognized species are: 1) The Colombian Black and White Tegu (Tupinambis Teguixin). 2) The Argentine Black and White Tegu (Tupinambis Merianea). 3) The Gold Tegu (Tupinambis Nigropunctatus) and 4) The Argentine Red Tegu (Tupinambis Rufescens).

All tegus are from South America. It is the only continent that they inhabit in the wild.

The general distributions of the various tegu species consist of: 1) The Colombian Black and White Tegus range covers Colombia exclusively. 2) The Gold Tegus range overlaps the Colombian Black and White Tegus range in Colombia , but there have been documented sightings of Gold Tegus in other countries such as Ecuador , Venezula , Guyana and Suriname._

I have seen both be called "colombians" by other keepers, by local shops, by internet reptile sellers and a host of other people. I refer to both my black and white colombian and my gold as "columbians". 

We can all agree they are not argentine, but that does not mean they are both colombian. One is gold and is a different species from one is that is colombian and is a different species.

Anyone? 

link: http://www.cityreptiles.com/tegu.html


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## Quartzyellowjacket (Apr 5, 2012)

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us1Yy9-zTL8[/video]
I'm going to pitch the idea that perhaps in Colombia there is a geological change that occurred and via natural selection black and gold prevailed over black and white in certain areas.


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## m3s4 (Apr 5, 2012)

Quartzyellowjacket said:


> [video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us1Yy9-zTL8[/video]
> I'm going to pitch the idea that perhaps in Colombia there is a geological change that occurred and via natural selection black and gold prevailed over black and white in certain areas.



That's very plausible. 

Because the equator lies right there, I thought perhaps one's range was farther north, and one's farther south, possibly explaining the color variation. However, according to what I posted earlier, the golds and colombians are entirely different species meaning they are more then variants. 

Apparently the gold's have a very large territory because it overlaps parts of the colombians territory. 

My next question would be, if this is the case, can they be cross bred and/or do the cross breed in colombia?


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## laurarfl (Apr 5, 2012)

The current "Colombian", T teguixin, was once T nigropunctatus as well. They have both (gold and b/w) been renamed as T teguixin.


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## m3s4 (Apr 5, 2012)

laurarfl said:


> The current "Colombian", T teguixin, was once T nigropunctatus as well. They have both (gold and b/w) been renamed as T teguixin.



Oh. 

Thanks for the heads up and clarification. 

So then, has anyone, or does anyone, know if the two different colored colombians have been bred together? 

Ie; Male colombian (gold) with Female colombian (black and white)?


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## laurarfl (Apr 6, 2012)

Most teguixin are ranched. Just an opinion, but I venture to guess that no captive breeding program or enough interest has been generated to investigate the genetics involved with color.


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## m3s4 (Apr 6, 2012)

Good to know. 

Btw, Chester looks great - love the name too.


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