# Chacoan or Extreme giant? How to tell?



## Renske (Jan 4, 2013)

How do you see if its a Chacoan or Extreme giant? I have a 3 year old black and white and live in the netherlands (holland, europe). I don't know where he comes from.... Bought him from a boy how was afraight of him...
He is around 55/59inch (almost 1,5 meter).


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## Roadkill (Jan 4, 2013)

Considering both are little more than marketing ploys, I'd say take your pick and run with it.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Jan 4, 2013)

As Roadkill said, they're both methods of driving up the prices and are little more than that. However, what you have wouldn't be classified as either by most people's definitions. I'd call it a "normal" Argentine Black and White Tegu.


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## Roadkill (Jan 5, 2013)

I both agree and disagree with what you're saying, TegusRawsome80, because I have a somewhat different perspective and background to this. First, in the hobbyist usage, "normal" Argentine Black and White tegu is almost a derogatory term, it seems to be considered a "mutt" and therefore less valued. I doubt I can change this perception, not sure if it's worth it. Still, I find it amusing that when you see someone presenting a Paraguayan Black & White how people seemed to get riled up and do the "you can't prove, therefore it isn't, it's just a normal Argentine Black & White". However, the fact remains that neither Chacoan nor Extreme giant are from any specific stock other than "normal" Argentine Black and White. Someone merely created the names, applied it to some stock of his, charged an elevated price, because this person was once highly respected now people are buying into the 'difference'. I have to concede, there may actually be a marketable difference, but I also know with 100% certainty that I can go to the Chacoan region of South America and easily get a tegu that resembles something completely different from what people want to call a Chacoan. If people honestly think the "Chacoan" resembles the "normal" or predominant phenotype of the Chacoan region, they would be sadly wrong. Albeit, I have to admit, I have an issue with people creating names out of the blue (pun intended) that relate to specific geographic regions unless it can be proven that either A)that is the predominant phenotype of that region or B) you have the means to connect it to the Proper name (ie. you can show the tegu came from Paraguay, great, let's call it a Paraguayan; you can show that the predominant phenotype of region X looks like this, fine we'll call it an X tegu; if it's from Paraguay and looks like X, we can call it a Paraguayan X tegu). I've argued this in the past with respect to the term "Argentine", much to no avail. No one other than hobbyists use the name "Argentine Black & White" - scientific literature uses a number of other names, I would suspect primarily because Argentina represents such a MINOR area of its range, but to hobbyists this is where the first pet ones came from and so the name has stuck with them. Then there's the issue of pedigree. Many argue that you can't call a phenotype something new until it is "proven genetic", only proving that they don't understand that ALL colours, patterns, etc. are genetic. These are all morphs. When you consistently breed these morphs from likewise looking parents, this becomes pedigree. We'd be having a different discussion if people did the "did this come from these parents, and these parents came from this stock, therefore we have the pedigree of Chacoan/blue/extreme/purplepeopleeater/etc.", but they don't, they pick and choose what superficial traits they see and go by that. As long as there isn't an official compendium declaring the minimum traits required to go with the specific common name, and as long as people accept conjectured names without verification, I say if Renske wants to call that a Chacoan then that's a Chacoan. Admittedly, others may disagree, and to their understanding may have grounds for disagreement.


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## Renske (Jan 5, 2013)

So you can't see it. You only know it if the breeder says it is... Its not realy inportant. I will not sell him and the names extreme giant and chacaon says noting in europe. He is just very big.



Roadkill said:


> I both agree and disagree with what you're saying, TegusRawsome80, because I have a somewhat different perspective and background to this. First, in the hobbyist usage, "normal" Argentine Black and White tegu is almost a derogatory term, it seems to be considered a "mutt" and therefore less valued. I doubt I can change this perception, not sure if it's worth it. Still, I find it amusing that when you see someone presenting a Paraguayan Black & White how people seemed to get riled up and do the "you can't prove, therefore it isn't, it's just a normal Argentine Black & White". However, the fact remains that neither Chacoan nor Extreme giant are from any specific stock other than "normal" Argentine Black and White. Someone merely created the names, applied it to some stock of his, charged an elevated price, because this person was once highly respected now people are buying into the 'difference'. I have to concede, there may actually be a marketable difference, but I also know with 100% certainty that I can go to the Chacoan region of South America and easily get a tegu that resembles something completely different from what people want to call a Chacoan. If people honestly think the "Chacoan" resembles the "normal" or predominant phenotype of the Chacoan region, they would be sadly wrong. Albeit, I have to admit, I have an issue with people creating names out of the blue (pun intended) that relate to specific geographic regions unless it can be proven that either A)that is the predominant phenotype of that region or B) you have the means to connect it to the Proper name (ie. you can show the tegu came from Paraguay, great, let's call it a Paraguayan; you can show that the predominant phenotype of region X looks like this, fine we'll call it an X tegu; if it's from Paraguay and looks like X, we can call it a Paraguayan X tegu). I've argued this in the past with respect to the term "Argentine", much to no avail. No one other than hobbyists use the name "Argentine Black & White" - scientific literature uses a number of other names, I would suspect primarily because Argentina represents such a MINOR area of its range, but to hobbyists this is where the first pet ones came from and so the name has stuck with them. Then there's the issue of pedigree. Many argue that you can't call a phenotype something new until it is "proven genetic", only proving that they don't understand that ALL colours, patterns, etc. are genetic. These are all morphs. When you consistently breed these morphs from likewise looking parents, this becomes pedigree. We'd be having a different discussion if people did the "did this come from these parents, and these parents came from this stock, therefore we have the pedigree of Chacoan/blue/extreme/purplepeopleeater/etc.", but they don't, they pick and choose what superficial traits they see and go by that. As long as there isn't an official compendium declaring the minimum traits required to go with the specific common name, and as long as people accept conjectured names without verification, I say if Renske wants to call that a Chacoan then that's a Chacoan. Admittedly, others may disagree, and to their understanding may have grounds for disagreement.



I agree. I just ask becouse i can't understand where the names come from. But now I understand.


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## Roadkill (Jan 5, 2013)

Renske, you have what looks to be a healthy, happy, largish _Salvator merianae_ with what I like to call the Roman nose and a hint of orange underbelly. I'd be proud to have him and so should you be!


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## bmx3000max (Jan 5, 2013)

chacoan and extreme are the same thing so i dont think it would be eaither or, eaither it is or isnt


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## TeguBuzz (Jan 5, 2013)

That's a mighty looking male. Keep it up Renske.


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## james.w (Jan 5, 2013)

bmx3000max said:


> chacoan and extreme are the same thing so i dont think it would be eaither or, eaither it is or isnt



Did you read Roadkill's post??


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## bmx3000max (Jan 5, 2013)

yea, but that has nothing to do with anything??? im responding to renskes first post when he said i qoute "chacoan or extreme" im just stating they are the same thing so you dont have to say "or" so its eaither a chacoan or normal, personally i dont care about the names i just use the word tegu to describe mine cause when i tell people 90percent of people dont even know what im talking about, didnt know i had to exsplain myself


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## james.w (Jan 5, 2013)

bmx3000max said:


> yea, but that has nothing to do with anything??? im responding to renskes first post when he said i qoute "chacoan or extreme" im just stating they are the same thing so you dont have to say "or" so its eaither a chacoan or normal, personally i dont care about the names i just use the word tegu to describe mine cause when i tell people 90percent of people dont even know what im talking about, didnt know i had to exsplain myself



Actually, "chacoan" and "extreme" are not the same thing nor are they anything, but a made up name to make more money off of people. So it isn't either a "chacoan" or "normal", it is a Tegu, or Tupinambis merianae.


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## Renske (Jan 5, 2013)

Wen I asked the first time I tought the names where a lokality where they are come from. Thats why I ask. My male is very big. Not usual in the netherlands/europe.


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## laurarfl (Jan 5, 2013)

Actually, it is now a Salvator meriane since they have been renamed.


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## Dubya (Jan 5, 2013)

laurarfl said:


> Actually, it is now a Salvator meriane since they have been renamed.



Laura, so do you think Bobby is pulling our legs, or do you think he is telling the truth? My (so called) Extreme was hatched 6/13 and is 37" long now. That seems kind of big. Did he bend me over?


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## laurarfl (Jan 5, 2013)

*merianae...oops!

This discussion has been going on for so long. I found this discussion post from 2007:
"nicolerussel, as for the size of particular morphs or populations of T.merianae, the species does appear to adhere to Bergmann's rule, which is to state that populations nearest the pole tends to have individuals larger in mass/size than populations nearer to the equator. Unfortunately, with many breeders and wholesalers, they are so eager to have the "in" morph or something new in order to get a buck, they often attach names or geographic origins to their specimens without having any certainty behind the claim. Or, on the other hand, someone posts a picture of a "Chacoan" tegu and say a "Minas Gerais" tegu, they look different, and from then on, people just accept that the picture of the "Chacoan" is how all the tegus in that region look, and same with the "Minas Gerais" tegu. And you get an incorrect trend started. I'm not saying you are wrong (in fact, I'd generally agree that a Chacoan region tegu should be larger than one from say Bahia), but considering how people in the pet industry say anything to make a sale (I know this for a fact, I worked in the industry for a decade), I would be highly skeptical of any claim to the geographic origin of any tegu unless it was backed up by some rather impressive corroborating evidence (keep in mind that wholesalers on average are as reliable for telling the truth as comic books are).
I've been down in South America studying tegus, and people always overlook the one fact I tell them. This species is highly polymorphic, meaning it comes in many different colour patterns. While it is true that populations from certain regions tend to exhibit particular colour traits, it isn't that stringent. Some regions are predominantly black, others are lighter coloured, others have a high degree of orange bellies. However, predominance does not mean 100%. 50% is good enough for that claim, or even 40% depending on the frequency of other colour patterns. Take my current country of residence, I'd have to agree that it is predominantly caucasian, but you sure couldn't tell it by the classes I've taught lately, some of them have been 100% asian. I'd take any claim of geographic origin of a tegu with a HUGE grain of salt. Especially in light of the fact that while some of the countries in South America allow export of them but others do not, there is immense illegal trafficking of these animals across the borders of these said countries, therefore it's anyone's guess where they are actually from. They may have shipped out from Argentina, but their origin could be Paraquay, Uruguay, Brazil or Bolivia. Unfortunately, no one likes to be wrong and so if they're told this is a Chacoan, they go down fighting that claim without any evidence to back it up."
Posted on thetegu by tupinambis.

I don't know if Bobby "bent you over" or not, per se. I agree that the Extremes are a selectively bred type of S merianae. Sometimes it is impossible to know for certain where a specific group of animals came from. Someone may have told Bobby that they came from the Chacoan region and he believed it. I've always thought it ironic that Bobby dislikes the blues, claiming they are all inbred because the original six came from the same clutch. But if the Extremes also came from a small group from a small region, why would that be different?

But the way I look at it, the Extremes with high white contrast are quite beautiful. If I bought one and was happy with my purchase, then I would be satisfied. I would like to own one myself! But I buy something because I like it, not to catch onto a name or be part of a trend, etc. I figure if I am going to have this animal for hopefully 12-15yrs, it better be one that I like!!

One of my hybrids is almost as big and was hatched either the same day or a week later. So..you never know.


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## Dubya (Jan 5, 2013)

I bought my "extreme" because I didn't know better at the time I bought it. I may have been bent over. Just like all the others. I do really love my little guy though. He does have a great temperment and personality.


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## Roadkill (Jan 6, 2013)

> I've always thought it ironic that Bobby dislikes the blues, claiming they are all inbred because the original six came from the same clutch.



I find it interesting that Bobby Hill used to be very pro-blue until about the time of him and Rick Sisko having their fall out, and now Mr. Hill uses the arguments against blues that he used to try making fun of me for presenting.


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