# Chaco with a fire belly?



## Konrad (Aug 7, 2016)

given my limited experience with tegus I was wondering if this is a possible variant. I purchased the little guy as a Chaco male from Snakes at Sunset. He's doing great, eats like a champ and is very tame. After he went through his first shed last week his throat and belly are turning a rather bright orange. Is this normal for a extreme giant tegu or did I get the old switcharoo? From what I have read the fire belly is attributed to the Florida wild population. Any input would be greatly appreciated.


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## Justsomedude (Aug 7, 2016)

Lol that's funny I also got mine from snakes at sunset and it's also a male chacoan however it's more like a b&w with a fire belly! Mine was bought in May and they said that it came from South America however they are located in fl and the red belly does seem to be attributed to fl however I'm not sure if that's a proven fact


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## Konrad (Aug 7, 2016)

That's what I thought. I got swindled. Who knows if it's even a male. I also noticed a small bump n his tail that is indicative of an injury something a captive bread animal wold not have. I might have to take action about this.


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## Justsomedude (Aug 7, 2016)

It depends I still fell in love with my little dude in the big picture they are all tegus chacoan b&w Blues reds it's the animal we love to keep not the skin he's one cool ass lookin tegu and the fire belly is a cool trait. In their end you can still break them into being docile loving little critters it just takes time


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## Konrad (Aug 7, 2016)

I'm a retired lawyer I have a hard time letting things go. Especially when it's a con.


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## Justsomedude (Aug 7, 2016)

Konrad said:


> I'm a retired lawyer I have a hard time letting things go. Especially when it's a con.


Haha lol that's a good point! I'm just saying in the end are you really gonna return him. If it is a him lol I am questioning the same thing with mine weather or not it's a boy lol but like I said either way I wanted a tegu and I got a tegu. Perhaps my next one will be more precisely purchased


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## Justsomedude (Aug 7, 2016)

Keep me posted on what happens though


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## Walter1 (Aug 7, 2016)

It remains to be seen the extent to which these labels reflect regional differences that pop up in the Florida genetic soup, as happens with many of the exotic herps established in Florida, or are just morphs that can pop up in any population. 

Ultimately, the name must denote something biologically meaningful or not. If 'Chacoan' means black and white belly, then they owe you a refund.


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## Konrad (Aug 8, 2016)

So I spoke to them or rather texted. Their reply was that he is captive bread and as probed before he was sent to me. They also said that extreme tegus have a heir belly turn orange while a job virile and then it turns black and white as adults. Not sure I buy that I wish some experienced Chaco owners could confirm or deny that. 

But I think I am going to keep him anyway today I put my hand in the tank he crawled right up to my shoulder and hung out on it as I did some work in my office. He even fell asleep a few times. And just tonight he was free roaming on me and after a few minutes he tucked in to the crook of my arm and fell asleep. Even the if he is a wild caught Florida fire belly. He certainly is very docile and dare I say plesent. So I'm not sure I want to chance another one that is less tame.


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## Walter1 (Aug 8, 2016)

Konrad said:


> So I spoke to them or rather texted. Their reply was that he is captive bread and as probed before he was sent to me. They also said that extreme tegus have a heir belly turn orange while a job virile and then it turns black and white as adults. Not sure I buy that I wish some experienced Chaco owners could confirm or deny that.
> 
> But I think I am going to keep him anyway today I put my hand in the tank he crawled right up to my shoulder and hung out on it as I did some work in my office. He even fell asleep a few times. And just tonight he was free roaming on me and after a few minutes he tucked in to the crook of my arm and fell asleep. Even the if he is a wild caught Florida fire belly. He certainly is very docile and dare I say plesent. So I'm not sure I want to chance another one that is less tame.


Hey, Hey! No dissing the FL WCs! That's what I love. 

As I said, if they didn't give you what they said you'd get, then that's an issue. IF, he's your buddy, keep him, but the vensor's not off the hook.


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## Justsomedude (Aug 9, 2016)

Yea I agree I had some shipping issues with them when I got my tegu from them. Was not overly impressed. However once you have bonded with the little guy that's it! I am sure he is gonna get huge!


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## cab5392 (Oct 1, 2016)

I recently received my tegu from Snakes at Sunset. She was marketed as a chacoan as well, but also displays a light orange underbelly. Regardless, she arrived healthy and is much more tame than I was expecting. She enjoys burrowing into your clothes and falling asleep to head rubs.


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## Walter1 (Oct 1, 2016)

cab5392 said:


> I recently received my tegu from Snakes at Sunset. She was marketed as a chacoan as well, but also displays a light orange underbelly. Regardless, she arrived healthy and is much more tame than I was expecting. She enjoys burrowing into your clothes and falling asleep to head rubs.


What on earth is a Chacoan?? Yet to be formally be described beyond an overpriced tegu that is expected to be big????


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## cab5392 (Oct 2, 2016)

Walter1 said:


> What on earth is a Chacoan?? Yet to be formally be described beyond an overpriced tegu that is expected to be big????


It's a Tupinambis merianae color morph, I expect nothing more or less regarding size. As for overpriced, mine was the same price as any Argentine B&W on the market. At worst I have a healthy, tame tegu. If as marketed, I have a beautiful high-white lizard.


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## Walter1 (Oct 2, 2016)

The issue to me is the odd marketing that is done. 

As for the lizard itself, the very best one is the one the person wants.


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## cab5392 (Oct 2, 2016)

Walter1 said:


> The issue to me is the odd marketing that is done.
> 
> As for the lizard itself, the very best one is the one the person wants.


I do agree it comes across heavily as a marketing gimmick, which seemed to originate from a Bobby Hill. All of the pictures of adult tegus that I have seen labelled as "Chacoan" have had a higher degree of white coloration, which is why I chose the Chacoan label seeing as this vendor had them priced equally.(They did hike their prices by around $30 soon after my purchase for both types). I have seen pictures of regular Argentines that grow quite large so the extreme giant bit seems exaggerated.

As for the firebelly, the name comes from Rodney of TegusOnly after seeing the pigment variation in Florida Tegus. I am inclined to believe that these "firebellies" get their unique pigment from their wild diet, similar to flamingos. I am unsure what diet would cause a captive bred to have these colors. One might incorporate pumpkin and perhaps other safe pigmented foods into their pet's diet and see if any change in coloration takes place.


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## Walter1 (Oct 2, 2016)

cab5392 said:


> I do agree it comes across heavily as a marketing gimmick, which seemed to originate from a Bobby Hill. All of the pictures of adult tegus that I have seen labelled as "Chacoan" have had a higher degree of white coloration, which is why I chose the Chacoan label seeing as this vendor had them priced equally.(They did hike their prices by around $30 soon after my purchase for both types). I have seen pictures of regular Argentines that grow quite large so the extreme giant bit seems exaggerated.
> 
> As for the firebelly, the name comes from Rodney of TegusOnly after seeing the pigment variation in Florida Tegus. I am inclined to believe that these "firebellies" get their unique pigment from their wild diet, similar to flamingos. I am unsure what diet would cause a captive bred to have these colors. One might incorporate pumpkin and perhaps other safe pigmented foods into their pet's diet and see if any change in coloration takes place.


Abput 1/3 of the catch in Flooda City/Homestead have varying degrees of fire. My three come from Rodney. One, Rosita, is bright red and in two years with me hasn't lost it. Sub-adult when I got her. My male, Oscar, shows no fire. However, Snowflake, the whitest dorsally of the three has been gaining orange in the two years of my having her. A light prach not evident before.

Captive breds can be fire bellies. 

My interpretation of this is that fire belly is genetic= some more red than others, sime acquiring it later than others. 

What remains unknown is the extent it is maintained anywhere in the wild as a morph or regionally ditinct form somewhere. 

Very dark and very fair tegus appear in Florida City that could be selectively bred as Hill apparantly did with ligjt tegus. Were they derived from the Grand Chaco? Who knows?


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## Roadkill (Oct 2, 2016)

Here's my two cents on the "firebelly" trait. From the ones I have had, some fade with age, some get bolder with age. I have seen nothing to indicate it comes from diet. In my experience, it is more-or-less a permanent feature. Now, having said this, I will admit my experience with the trait is "limited" and when I had them, I wasn't doing any "tracking" to see if the colour brightens and fades with seasonality/shedding/etc. as many have tried to correlate it to. However, all these traits that people clue into - white head, dark nose, firebelly, yellow dorsal colour, all these exist "independently of stock", meaning that a dark nose is NOT a sign of a Blue, that it can exist as a trait in something completely un-Blue, or that Blues can have a non-dark nose. "Firebelly" could indeed be in something someone wants to call a "Chacoan", and it doesn't mean it's a hybrid or that it's not a "Chacoan".


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## Walter1 (Oct 2, 2016)

Roadkill said:


> Here's my two cents on the "firebelly" trait. From the ones I have had, some fade with age, some get bolder with age. I have seen nothing to indicate it comes from diet. In my experience, it is more-or-less a permanent feature. Now, having said this, I will admit my experience with the trait is "limited" and when I had them, I wasn't doing any "tracking" to see if the colour brightens and fades with seasonality/shedding/etc. as many have tried to correlate it to. However, all these traits that people clue into - white head, dark nose, firebelly, yellow dorsal colour, all these exist "independently of stock", meaning that a dark nose is NOT a sign of a Blue, that it can exist as a trait in something completely un-Blue, or that Blues can have a non-dark nose. "Firebelly" could indeed be in something someone wants to call a "Chacoan", and it doesn't mean it's a hybrid or that it's not a "Chacoan".


That is because the genetics associated with firebelly are unknown as are its place in nature.


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## Rodney Irwin (Oct 3, 2016)

I seem to be in the middle of all things Firebelly. First off, let me be clear about this. I started calling them "Firebellys" out of
a need to call them SOMETING. I have never claimed to have created this morph. It is something that happened
in the population from which I capture tegus. My only involvement is that I capture, remove and protect them
from a large effort to euthanize all tegus in Florida to protect our natives. I hope this will provide a good look at what is known about
Firebellys from the experts.












Professional Opinion on the Fire Belly Morph of the Argentine Black and White
Tegu (Tupinambis merianae) in Extreme Southern Mainland Florida

The following opinion is based upon current scientific data from peer-reviewed
papers and the combined professional opinion of several experts in the field,
including Florida Wildlife Commission personnel, University of Florida
researchers and professors, USGS invasive species research group, and FKAA
water quality specialist.

Also in agreement are well-known reptile breeders in Florida, Tom Crutchfield,
Bob Freer, and Rachel Pikstein. Ms. Pikstein is a professional biologist with an
M.S. degree in ecology and 25 years of experience in reptile husbandry. She is
currently finishing a three-year genetic and ecological assessment of the
Argentine Black and White Tegu that compares wild imported animals to both
established exotic populations in Florida and to captive-bred individuals. Her
sample size for this study is in excess of 600 lizards.
The aforementioned sources and current literature support the opinion that the
lizards fitting the characteristics of a look that was coined as ‘fire belly’ by
Rodney Irwin most likely represent a morph of unknown derivation whose
intensity may or may not be influenced by environmental factors other than
sunlight intensity.


The thick hide of a tegu has not been documented to absorb pigments from soil
or leaf litter. Lizards with thick hides, such as teiids and varanids, are not known
to be able to influence their body coloration by diet. Although some of the
species have chromatophores, lizards of the genus Tupinambus are not known
to have the ability to actively change color.
From combined observations of more than 3,000 tegus from the abovementioned sources,
what is known is that juvenile characteristics fade away,
(green head/blue tail), and their natural colors brighten or darken during sexual
maturity regardless of habitats and captive circumstances and subject to a
variety of water sources, diets, and range of natural light or UVB bulb exposure.
The red coloration fades in the absence of natural sunlight in captivity or during
brumation at breeding facilities when intense natural sunlight is removed. The
fire belly is a morph whose intensity increases with exposure to natural sunlight.
Fire belly appears in <30% of the Homestead, Florida, population, where it is
evident in males, females adults and juveniles. This morph also appears in
captive-bred collections but with a lesser intensity of color. Less than 5% of
animals showed red coloration in four breeding facilities examined by Pikstein.
Fire belly is a heritable trait and occurs in approximately one-third of the small
six-mile-radius introduced population in Homestead. Whether fire belly in its
native range is a naturally-occurring morph or a regionally-distinct trait remains to
be seen.
In captivity, however, the fire belly morph can be line-bred to select for the most
intense trait or traits, as in the ‘blue tegu’ (Ron St. Pierre), ‘Chacoan tegu’ (Bobby
Hill), ‘Bruiser’ and ‘Purple’ tegus (Rian Gitman of Underground Reptiles).
Hobbyists/breeders identify a unique trait and confirm it to be heritable through
selective breeding and then coin the term to produce sales of that desirable
morph within the species.

Regardless of hobbyist interest in its selective breeding, the fire belly is a morph.
In Homestead, that morph is present and maintained at its frequency through
natural selection. In captivity, its fate will be determined by artificial selection.

Rodney Irwin
Tegusonly.com


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## thatoneguy (Nov 25, 2016)

My chacoan was from Underground Reptiles, and when he was younger had a fire belly that would kind of come and go. now that he is about a year it's not very noticeable. 

I trust that underground reptiles didn't swindle me and that he is a chacoan line.

I once believed it had to do with to much D3 diet supplements, and since I cut way back on the added D3, the fire belly also faded, of course this could also be do to age.


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## Rodney Irwin (Nov 27, 2016)

Hi The firebelly traits will sometimes fade during brumation or shed.
I dont know where Underground gets theirs. I capture all of mine from a population
in the wild that is known for great Firebellys myself.
http://www.tegusonly.com/firebelly-page


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