# Worried about Kimo, take a look please!



## Max713 (May 10, 2011)

I've noticed this for a while now, but it just really stuck out tonight. Kimo's lower jaw, especially on his left side, almost seems swollen, or puffy. 
I don't really have anything to judge by, but after looking at some old pics, I can definitely say it looks different. Anybody have any idea as to what may be going on with him?
He's eating fine, acting normal, very alert, actually more active than normal! These pics were taken tonight at 10:00 PST, hes been up and about since I got home at 8, I imagine he had been up and about earlier in the day too, I've never seen him up past 7 before...
I was concerned, so I tried hand feeding him, in my hands (held him in one hand, offered him food with my fingers on the other hand). He took the food no problem, only got small glimpses of the inside of his mouth, but nothing looked wrong, good healthy pink color, etc, just looks swollen.
*Only did this to try to get a good look in his mouth*
He was such a good boy, he let me poke, prod and squeeze his mouth, without that much resistance. He wouldn't open it for me, but it did feel a bit soft, for a lizard mouth anyways. He didn't seem to have any kind of "pain" reaction, but that isn't really a good judge.
Also seems that he may be opening his mouth farther than normal to flick his tongue, but that I'm not very sure of.
If anyone has any ideas, PLEASE share. I love my little guy, I couldn't bare for anything to happen to him! 
Am I just being a worried parent, or does something look wrong here?

I fear there aren't any good reptile vets in the area, but I think I'll start a search tomorrow. Keep in mind, I'm a broke college student, but I will do whatever is needed to insure his health, that's what emergency credit cards are for...

Thanks in advance everyone!

Here are a whole bunch of pics:











Just after "flicking:





Just before a flick, I think










Just after a flick





And a pic from yesterday afternoon, although not a good one.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (May 10, 2011)

_I haven't had any experience with it but sometimes I see pics of tegus that just came out of hibernation and their mouth is the same way,.. some even more so. I don't know if that causes it, maybe they're still coming around and need to rehydrate more or not but eventually someone with experience in that department will chime in. Since none of mine have ever hibernated.

As long as it doesn't get worse, its not red, discolored or anything oozing out of it I would just keep a close eye on it for now._


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## Max713 (May 11, 2011)

Thanks for the response, I hadn't heard of Tegu's having anything like that out of hibernation, a little reassuring. But Kimo didn't actually fully hibernate, he just "slowed down". He's now getting much more active, but I can't imagine that having an effect on his "condition".

If it were red/oozing/etc, I'd be driving to the nearest clinic 

Like I said (and you can kind of see), it doesn't look wrong or unhealthy in any way, other than a slight "swollen" look.
I will most definitely keep an eye on it, thank you for the support.

Here's to hoping someone chimes in that has experienced something similar!


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## chelvis (May 11, 2011)

Before i chime in i need to know set-up, ie lighting, humidity, diet (what is fed and how often), substurate. Any info you can give will help.


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## frost (May 11, 2011)

well i havent really raised a tegu yet.but iv had some medical experience and i think a soak and open air and ubv should help. im not sure about the effects on tegus with antibiotics other wise id say swab the outer part of his mouth with some peroxide. if he hasent been outside lately i would let him out tho. i had a rabbit that had a gaping hole in his neck and we let him out for a week or so and it was completely healed. i know there two completely different animals but i think fresh open air can work wonders.


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## Max713 (May 11, 2011)

chelvis said:


> Before i chime in i need to know set-up, ie lighting, humidity, diet (what is fed and how often), substurate. Any info you can give will help.



Here's the specs:
(Only thing different from pic: basking rock changed to flat one(pictured), and basking bulb changed to 2 halogens, no more clamp lamp)










4x3x3
70-75% Humidity (misted daily)
80-85F Cool Side
Basking gradient, 100-125F
Multiple Hides (as you can see), one on cool side that stays very cool/moist
~4" Substrate w/ one area of ~10" Substrate (Coco Husk Coarse)
Large ~1.5" deep water dish, fresh daily

Lighting:
Halogen 70W + 50W (floods) basking area
Reptisun 10.0 UVB tube bulb
10 watt mini bulb for extra light
-50W ceramic to maintain night time temps
-All lighting is completely out of reach, at all times

Diet:
Lean ground turkey (93/7)
-Sprinkled with calcium once a week
-Fed everyday, he would only eat every other day, up until about a week ago he has begun eating everyday

-Handled usually daily
-Baths every other day, although I think Ill hold off on those for a while



Anything else you need to know? I don't want to sound arrogant, but my understanding (and what I've been told by many) is I have about the perfect setup for a juvenile Tegu.
Kimo will be 9 months old on May 18th, he about 17" long, very thick and healthy looking.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (May 11, 2011)

_For Diet you just have turkey listed,... do you feed anything else? Also you should add calcium to any meat that doesn't contain it when ever you feed them._


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## jumper123 (May 11, 2011)

I know of a gu that got that as a result of mbd. Not saying that's the official cause for your baby but it's a possibility.


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## TheTeguGurl (May 11, 2011)

jumper123 said:


> I know of a gu that got that as a result of mbd. Not saying that's the official cause for your baby but it's a possibility.




Yes in some cases it is a symptom of MBD, but it can also be a infection of the mouth also.... You say you are only putting calcium on his food once a wk? at that age is should be around every other feeding with a young Tegu




Diet:
Lean ground turkey (93/7)
-Sprinkled with calcium once a week
-Fed everyday, he would only eat every other day, up until about a week ago he has begun eating everyday

-Handled usually daily
-Baths every other day, although I think Ill hold off on those for a while

I would try to calcium his food more and give him more of a variety of food other then just the turkey. Try chicken heart, gizzards, liver, some types of fish. and fruits if he will take it.... Very nice enclosure btw


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## laurarfl (May 11, 2011)

I second feeding calcium to anything without a high enough calcium content. Do his legs look a bit puffy, too, or is it just me? Given the diet, supplementation, and swollen jaw/legs, I'd be thinking calcium deficiency.


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## Max713 (May 11, 2011)

Bubblz Calhoun said:


> _For Diet you just have turkey listed,... do you feed anything else? Also you should add calcium to any meat that doesn't contain it when ever you feed them._


Well, I used offer him a large variety of fruits with his turkey, but he showed zero interest. Also used to feed crickets, but I have since stopped.
I planned on widening his diet once he began eating more regularly, sounds like it may be that time.
Thinking I'll over egg yolk and turkey today, with some grapes (cut in half), and maybe a slice of banana.



jumper123 said:


> I know of a gu that got that as a result of mbd. Not saying that's the official cause for your baby but it's a possibility.


God I hope not 



sarefina said:


> jumper123 said:
> 
> 
> > I know of a gu that got that as a result of mbd. Not saying that's the official cause for your baby but it's a possibility.
> ...


I'll start adding calcium every meal!
I described his diet etc. better above, but I've never offered any other type of meat but turkey. I have some tillapia in the freezer I think I'll give a try, may need to run to the store and grab some chicken heart. How do you serve chicken heart/liver/ etc? Do you dice it for them?
Thanks for the compliment, my goal is to give him the absolute best care/life possible.



laurarfl said:


> I second feeding calcium to anything without a high enough calcium content. Do his legs look a bit puffy, too, or is it just me? Given the diet, supplementation, and swollen jaw/legs, I'd be thinking calcium deficiency.


Now that you say something, his legs do look a little puffy...
As I said above, I'll be adding calcium to his diet daily fro now on, eventually slowing to every other day if his condition changes for the better.


Thanks for all the help everyone!
Max


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## james.w (May 11, 2011)

How far away is the UVB tube?? The diet needs some variety if turkey is the only thing fed and needs to be dusted if it isn't whole prey. What calcium powder are you using?


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## reptastic (May 11, 2011)

I second the thoughts on mbd, not saying its a definite thing but definately something to look into, i also noticed you didnt mention any whole prey, a sole turkey diet isnt giving him enough nutients and vitamins, he needs a wide variety of ground meats, organs and whole prey. I had an iguana that came to me with similar symptons turned out to be mbd but his was a worser case but me and the vet got him bk on track but his jaw was still crooked from it setting in to long, i see some one mentioned swabing it with peroxide, which was one of the things my vet suggested, just my thoughts keep us updated on kimo


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## TheTeguGurl (May 11, 2011)

With the chicken hearts feed just as is, with the gizzards you can cut up to small pieces due to size of tegu. You can also get chicken or beef liver..Your tegu should also get whole prey like no more then 2 mice a wk. You can also get chicken breast with out bones..if it is a mbd issue you can buy some chicken neck. cut them up in small pieces to feed. the bone in the necks helps. When feeding eggs never raw. you can hard boil or scamble with the turkey. but too much eggs will give your little guy the runs..I would calcium every feeding or every other feeding till he is over a yr old..But I would deff take him in to see a vet to rule out anything esle


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## james.w (May 11, 2011)

I would offer adult mice (its kind of gross, but cut them up while frozen) the bones are much better for him. Also get some roaches. When feeding turkey, chicken, or chicken parts make sure to use a quality calcium powder w/o D3.


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## Max713 (May 11, 2011)

james.w said:


> How far away is the UVB tube?? The diet needs some variety if turkey is the only thing fed and needs to be dusted if it isn't whole prey. What calcium powder are you using?


The UVB tube is on the roof of his enclosure (inside), ~2.5' from him.
I would love to widen his diet, but so far he has been a picky little bastard! The only pinkies around here are those nasty little frozen ones... but I could chop him up a live mouse (I'm not squeemish...)
Hoping that now he is more active/awake, he will be a little more interested in different foods.
I'm using repti-calcium, without D3.



reptastic said:


> I second the thoughts on mbd, not saying its a definite thing but definately something to look into, i also noticed you didnt mention any whole prey, a sole turkey diet isnt giving him enough nutients and vitamins, he needs a wide variety of ground meats, organs and whole prey. I had an iguana that came to me with similar symptons turned out to be mbd but his was a worser case but me and the vet got him bk on track but his jaw was still crooked from it setting in to long, i see some one mentioned swabing it with peroxide, which was one of the things my vet suggested, just my thoughts keep us updated on kimo


God I hope its not MBD.... but it's looking like it may me. Did I catch it early enough to stop any real harm if I get him on a lot more calcium right away?
Like I said above, he's been a picky little eater, hoping I can get him to expand his diet. Like I said I have no problem chopping up a mouse for him, thinking I'll run to the store today for some chicken hearts too.



sarefina said:


> With the chicken hearts feed just as is, with the gizzards you can cut up to small pieces due to size of tegu. You can also get chicken or beef liver..Your tegu should also get whole prey like no more then 2 mice a wk. You can also get chicken breast with out bones..if it is a mbd issue you can buy some chicken neck. cut them up in small pieces to feed. the bone in the necks helps. When feeding eggs never raw. you can hard boil or scamble with the turkey. but too much eggs will give your little guy the runs..I would calcium every feeding or every other feeding till he is over a yr old..But I would deff take him in to see a vet to rule out anything esle


I've been looking for a good repti vet around my area, but I'm having a hard time finding one...
Look above for feeding plans.



james.w said:


> I would offer adult mice (its kind of gross, but cut them up while frozen) the bones are much better for him. Also get some roaches. When feeding turkey, chicken, or chicken parts make sure to use a quality calcium powder w/o D3.


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## james.w (May 11, 2011)

Is the UVB tube the only UVB you have? 2.5' is way to far away, I believe 20" is the max distance for them to be effective. You could always order rodents online, RodentPro is a great place. Live mice will work fine though as long as they are from a place you can trust. Euthanize them and then cut them up small enough for him to eat.

As far as catching it early enough, I would say yes. Get yourself a PowerSun MVB and get the calcium into him and he should heal nicely.


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## Kebechet (May 11, 2011)

While I know it isn't traditional, if you're not wanting to feed mice, I suggest http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/detail/c/7/id/3 Link has been doing fantastic on it. It runs about $25 for a 4lb bag, and lasts me about a month, and I've got a yearling. Calcium to phosphorus levels are good, though I still dust with repti-cal. Got some fruits in there too, as well as omegas. I also feed blueberries, chicken hearts, and the occasional egg. I do feed mice now and then, just because they're good for gu's. I also agree you've got a potential MBD problem on your hands. Don't start feeding huge amounts of calcium all at once though- I know it's easy to panic, but too much (pouring on powder liberally) isn't good either.


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## james.w (May 11, 2011)

Kebechet said:


> While I know it isn't traditional, if you're not wanting to feed mice, I suggest http://www.primalpetfoods.com/product/detail/c/7/id/3 Link has been doing fantastic on it. It runs about $25 for a 4lb bag, and lasts me about a month, and I've got a yearling. Calcium to phosphorus levels are good, though I still dust with repti-cal. Got some fruits in there too, as well as omegas. I also feed blueberries, chicken hearts, and the occasional egg. I do feed mice now and then, just because they're good for gu's. I also agree you've got a potential MBD problem on your hands. Don't start feeding huge amounts of calcium all at once though- I know it's easy to panic, but too much (pouring on powder liberally) isn't good either.



from reading the ingredients this seems like a good food for a portion of the diet, but I would still feed rodents and insects (roaches, worms).


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## Max713 (May 11, 2011)

james.w said:


> Is the UVB tube the only UVB you have? 2.5' is way to far away, I believe 20" is the max distance for them to be effective. You could always order rodents online, RodentPro is a great place. Live mice will work fine though as long as they are from a place you can trust. Euthanize them and then cut them up small enough for him to eat.
> 
> As far as catching it early enough, I would say yes. Get yourself a PowerSun MVB and get the calcium into him and he should heal nicely.


I had no idea they had such a strict "distance" requirement. 20"!? Thats ridiculous... I just recently changed the bulb arrangement in the enclosure. The UVB bulbis proably right around 20-24" from his actual basking spot, 2.5' was referring to his enclosure in general.
Used to be just 3 bulbs: 1 Powersun 160w UVB over the basking spot, w/ 70w halogen spot pointed at the basking spot to raise surface temp, and a regular flourescent tube for extra light. 
The Powersun bulb burned out at the 3 month mark, and I had the 10.0 UVB tube, so I created the new lighting setup, which I like much better... Luckily the PowerSun bulb is under warranty, I called and checked, etc. I just need to send it in, which I haven't got around to yet...
Putting the powersun back in there would put it around 18" from the basking position. And I just got all the enclosure temps exactly how I wanted them too!!!

The plan:
-Up his calcium intake, significantly
-*Try* to widen his diet (Kimo will decide that one...)
-Send the Powersun in, put it back in the enclosure (and try to get the enclosure temps back  )
-Run to the store for: Grapes, Chicken Heart/Liver, Live Mice

Some mentioned swabbing his mouth, with vinager or paroxide. Would this be recommended by most?

Is everyone is in agreeance that MDB is causing this?
Thanks for all the further help[ everyone!


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## TheTeguGurl (May 11, 2011)

I dont know about swabbing his mouth...with that stuff.. I had a Tegu come to me in care he had really bad MBD. his mouth open just a bit. i just kept it really clean with luke warm water. Don't feed him in his enclosure and when he is done eating just make sure his mouth is cleaned off of any left over food. I wouldn't rule out that he has MBD so i wold do " your plan" If he isnt getting better I would take him to a vet ASAP


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## reptastic (May 11, 2011)

The peroxide will help keep it from getting infected, by swabbing it you are moving food and other particles that can build up and cause complications, thats how the vet explained it to me with my iguana, and his was so bad he ultiately lost all his teeth on his lower right side jaw


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## james.w (May 11, 2011)

I would definitely get the powersun back in, they have a longer range of effective UVB than the coil or tube style bulbs. I would guess it is a calcium deficiency if the MVB bulb just recently went bad. If the temps get too high from the 160W, get a 100W and just raise the basking spot to the bulb.


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## Max713 (May 11, 2011)

Alright well, obviously the new lamp will have to wait, but the diet changes today:





Fresh fruit, tilapia, grapes, chicken liver, chicken heart.


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## james.w (May 11, 2011)

Now make sure all of that gets dusted with calcium powder, but don't overdo it.

Another thing you could do depending on weather, is get him outside for some natural sunlight. It is better than any UVB bulb there is.


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## chelvis (May 11, 2011)

Wow i didnt fallow this as close as i had hoped. Yep it sounds like early MBD can easily be fixed. Like people said the diets and bulbs all need to be re worked. 

Also do not use hydrogen poroxide. That cause dissue damage and really should not be used on soft tissues around the mouth. I know some vets still recomend it, but its not a good iead. Use a salt water or saline water to rinse the mouth, only if it looks like sores.


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## Riplee (May 11, 2011)

As my experience it is a sign of lack of the vitamin. 

Does he have the shedding problem?

Try feed him some beef liver and fish oil once a week.


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## Max713 (May 11, 2011)

chelvis said:


> Wow i didnt fallow this as close as i had hoped. Yep it sounds like early MBD can easily be fixed. Like people said the diets and bulbs all need to be re worked.
> 
> Also do not use hydrogen poroxide. That cause dissue damage and really should not be used on soft tissues around the mouth. I know some vets still recomend it, but its not a good iead. Use a salt water or saline water to rinse the mouth, only if it looks like sores.


There aren't any sores present, thinking I'll hold off on the rinse?
Putting the bulb in the mail tomorrow, hoping it won't take TOO long to get her...
He didn't eat much today, one mouth ful of turkey, 1/4"x3/8" piece of chicken heart, and grabbed a piece of grape but spit it back out.
Everything was pretty thoroughly dusted with Vit other than the grapes.



Riplee said:


> As my experience it is a sign of lack of the vitamin.
> 
> Does he have the shedding problem?
> 
> Try feed him some beef liver and fish oil once a week.


Thats another weird thing about Kimo, he's only shed once in the 4 months I've had him! That she wasn't "bad", although his toes were just a little bit stubborn.


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## Jefroka (May 11, 2011)

Really hard to beat basking in the sun outdoors. You have great support here and I believe you are on track as to how to provide him a speedy recovery.

Best of luck!


...Jefroka


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## chelvis (May 11, 2011)

I'd give him time. But like Jefroka said natural sun light really can not be beat. Chances are he might have has early stages of MBD and other deffiancies before he slowed down and now that he is warming up again they are starting to show again. Once they are all remadied you should see strenght return, energy, growth and shedding.


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## Riplee (May 11, 2011)

Max713 said:


> chelvis said:
> 
> 
> > Wow i didnt fallow this as close as i had hoped. Yep it sounds like early MBD can easily be fixed. Like people said the diets and bulbs all need to be re worked.
> ...



Sign of vitamin deficiency: 
1. the mouth like your tegu
2. Shedding Problem.

U got both. 

So try my suggestion, he will be fine in a few months. 

Thank you.


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## Max713 (May 11, 2011)

chelvis said:


> I'd give him time. But like Jefroka said natural sun light really can not be beat. Chances are he might have has early stages of MBD and other deffiancies before he slowed down and now that he is warming up again they are starting to show again. Once they are all remadied you should see strenght return, energy, growth and shedding.



That is so reassuring, thank you!

I think he may a bit small still to put a lizard harness on him to take him outside, what do you think?
Thats the only way I can think of to get him some natural sun light...


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## Riplee (May 11, 2011)

Max713 said:


> chelvis said:
> 
> 
> > I'd give him time. But like Jefroka said natural sun light really can not be beat. Chances are he might have has early stages of MBD and other deffiancies before he slowed down and now that he is warming up again they are starting to show again. Once they are all remadied you should see strenght return, energy, growth and shedding.
> ...



All my tegus keep indoor in their whole life. None of them touched even a little sunlight. 

But you can try use a screen cage, like hamster's, then put under the sunlight but make sure give him a hide and a water bowl to protect him from the over heat.


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## Max713 (May 11, 2011)

I know it's not required, or even needed, but I also know it couldn't hurt in Kimo's case... Although I think it may just be all too risky.


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## Riplee (May 11, 2011)

I think your tegu has no calcium problem (maybe a little but not major problem) and Ur cage is prefect. 

It is only the Vitamin problem

Sign of vitamin deficiency: 
1. the mouth like your tegu
2. Shedding Problem.

U got both. 

So try my suggestion, he will be fine in a few months. 

Thank you.


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## james.w (May 11, 2011)

I believe your problems are from lack of calcium and lack of UVB. The UVB can be made up for by basking in the natural sunlight. A wire cage will work or get 4 pieces of wood and make a square for him to hang out in. But like Riplee said have a hide, water bowl, and shade if you can. Get the calcium on everything that is not whole prey daily and you should see a quick turn-around.


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## Little Wise Owl (May 11, 2011)

I'd lean more towards a nutritional deficiency. Ground turkey and calcium simply doesn't have enough nutrients to be a balanced food on its own.


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## james.w (May 11, 2011)

Riplee said:


> I think your tegu has no calcium problem (maybe a little but not major problem) and Ur cage is prefect.
> 
> It is only the Vitamin problem
> 
> ...



What makes you think this?? And not a calcium/UVB deficiency??


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## Max713 (May 11, 2011)

Little Wise Owl said:


> I'd lean more towards a nutritional deficiency. Ground turkey and calcium simply doesn't have enough nutrients to be a balanced food on its own.



That reminds me:
You should not feed raw eggs to your Tegu, I remember a video a while back of your red lapping up some egg yolk.



Thanks for all the help everyone!


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## Riplee (May 11, 2011)

[/quote]

What makes you think this?? And not a calcium/UVB deficiency??


[/quote]

Because I knew a lot of people's tegus have nutritional/vitamin deficiency, and they all have two major signs: 

1. Mouse like this thread.
2. Shedding. 

Thank you.


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## Little Wise Owl (May 11, 2011)

Max713 said:


> Little Wise Owl said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This thread isn't about me and there's absolutely nothing wrong with raw egg yolks fed as a part of a varied diet


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## james.w (May 11, 2011)

Riplee said:


> Because I knew a lot of people's tegus have nutritional/vitamin deficiency, and they all have two major signs:
> 
> 1. Mouse like this thread.
> 2. Shedding.
> ...



I agree it could be a nutrition/vitamin deficiency, but the fact he is feeding only turkey and only using calcium once a week seems like a problem. Also the fact that his uvb is farther away than the bulb is effective also seem like issues that could be contributing to the problem.




Max713 said:


> Little Wise Owl said:
> 
> 
> > I'd lean more towards a nutritional deficiency. Ground turkey and calcium simply doesn't have enough nutrients to be a balanced food on its own.
> ...



I find it kind of ironic that you would give what seems to be sarcastic advice when you are having the issues you are with your own tegu. I have fed my tegu and monitors raw egg before and have seen no negative effects come from it.


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## Little Wise Owl (May 11, 2011)

A nutritional/vitamin deficiency could/would be caused by only feeding turkey and weekly calcium. Carnivorous omnivores and carnivores themselves need more than just meat and calcium to thrive. No one can really tell unless he's taken to a reptile vet though or if he shows more specific clinical signs.


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## james.w (May 11, 2011)

Little Wise Owl said:


> A nutritional/vitamin deficiency could/would be caused by only feeding turkey and weekly calcium. Carnivorous omnivores and carnivores themselves need more than just meat and calcium to thrive. No one can really tell unless he's taken to a reptile vet though or if he shows more specific clinical signs.



I agree, only a vet can tell 100%.


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## Max713 (May 11, 2011)

Little Wise Owl said:


> Max713 said:
> 
> 
> > Little Wise Owl said:
> ...


Wasn't making it about you, was merely making a statement.

Well, according to some in this thread, and both Bobby (Varnyard), and Johhny (TeguTerra), it is not ok to feed any raw egg product.



james.w said:


> Riplee said:
> 
> 
> > Because I knew a lot of people's tegus have nutritional/vitamin deficiency, and they all have two major signs:
> ...


I think you misunderstand the meaning of irony, and how in the hell to you get sarcasm from a straight forward statement with no form of implied inflection?
When I said "that reminds me", I was referring to Owl posting in this thread, reminded me of the video he posted of his Tegu eating raw egg yolk, and I made a statement that it is not recommended. Just because you haven't seen any negative effects, doesn't mean there are none...
Both of you that quick to be negative?

I assure you there was no hostility or sarcasm implied. What so ever.



And back on topic, could anyone post any info on previous cases of malnutrition due to a limited diet(lack of vitamins), and the causes of said lack of vitamins?
I ask because I had not seen/heard of that before, and from what I've been told, and investigated further, it seems MBD is much more likely.

Still on the search for a reputable reptile vet in the area as well...


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## james.w (May 11, 2011)

Here is something I just found with a quick Google search.

Nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP): The causes for NSHP can be multiple, but it is mostly due to a severe imbalance of the Ca ration in the diet, no access to a full spectrum (UV-B) light source and a lack of activated vitamin D3 or a combination of the above. If not enough Ca is provided in the diet or if no vitamin D3 is available, demineralization of the skeleton (osteomalacia in adults and rickets in juveniles) occurs. Pathological fractures and chronic abscesses, especially around the jaw, are common findings.

Signs of metabolic bone disease include hard knobs in the long bones of the legs, bumps along the vertebral column of the back and tail, softening or hard swelling of the jaw.

Symptoms of Vitamin A Deficiency:
The first symptom owners typically notice is swollen eyelids (especially in turtles) -- this can become so pronounced that the eyes cannot be opened. Other symptoms include:

* Swelling around eyes and mouth
* Nasal discharge
* Stomatitis (inflammation of the lining of mouth)
* Weakness
* Loss of appetite; weight loss
* Decreased growth rate
* Can be fatal in severe cases 

As far as raw eggs are concerned, it is fine to feed on occasion. Raw eggs contain avidin, which prevents biotin from being processed. This is only an issue if feeding a diet of 100% raw eggs.

I am going to leave your "sarcastic" comment issue alone.


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## Little Wise Owl (May 11, 2011)

I think of a nutritional deficiency because meat only with a calcium supplement is lacking many vitamins and minerals. Ground turkey doesn't contain any significant amounts of vitamins. Vitamins which are necessary for growth and skin health. Ground turkey contains little to no vitamin A, very little of vitamin E and K, and almost no C or D vitamins. 

If your guy will eat live insects like crickets and various worms, definitely add those back into his diet. Get him eating some liver if you can (contains a lot of vitamin A) but don't over-do the liver as vitamin A toxicity IS a possibility. Add as much variety as you can at this point and see if he improves while you search for a Herp. Vet.





And for the record, there's nothing wrong with raw eggs. Salmonella is a non-issue for animals which regularly consume raw meat as their primary diet. The only reason people are so worried about it is because of the avidin/bioton issue. Avidin is a protein which binds Biotin (a B vitamin). Biotin is necessary for healthy skin. 

Thing is, Avidin is only found in egg WHITES. Yolks on the other hand are _very_ rich in Biotin. Feeding raw eggs everyday or egg whites moreso than yolks could be dangerous because you could run into a biotin deficiency. Eggs shouldn't be fed every day anyway. I only offer my ferrets, dogs and cats raw eggs once a week. I offer egg yolks more often because there's no avidin to worry about.

Feeding raw eggs as a part of a varied diet to ANY carnivorous animal (ferrets, cats, dogs, tegus, etc) is a non-issue.


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## laurarfl (May 12, 2011)

And if you supplement with B vitamins, feeding raw egg whites isn't an issue, either. The raw egg/avidin issue popped up when monitor keepers were feeding a huge proportion of raw eggs to their lizards.

None of us are herp vets and we are just speculating over the Internet...just keeping it real and not trying to offend anyone. There are probably a few things going on that are diet related. On the one hand, there is obviously a calcium deficiency in the diet, a lack of UVB, a D vitamin deficiency because the calcium prob doesn't have D3 and the UVB issue, and other vitamin deficiencies from being fed only turkey. Sorry, Max, I don't mean to sound harsh, just being objective. So everyone is right. Calcium concerns bones and muscle, so there will be weakness. B vitamins concern nerve transmission and skin health, among other things, so there will be weakness. Vit A also affect skin and connective tissue. Many of things together can add up to soft jaws, affected skin elasticity, muscle weakness, all sorts of things that can show up as that little open lip.

But the bottom line is that the little guy needs a serious diet change with more calcium and multivitamin supplementation and a better UVB situation.  Then he can get better and Max can have a healthy Kimo again.

Instead of editing, I'm just going to add another post. I went back and caught up. It was kind of confusing to read and find the info. At this point, I would try to get Kimo to eat some foods that are naturally higher in Vit D and calcium. Vit A and D will come from liver, so if he eats some chicken or beef liver, that will help. My tegus aren't crazy about beef liver but will eat some chicken liver once in a while. As for fruit, papaya is naturally higher in calcium than other fruits and it comes canned from ZooMed (I think it's them). I would try some F/T rodents, too, to get natural vitamins and minerals. I know you're not a fan of raw egg, but a little egg yolk may entice him to eat. His appetite is likely down due to whatever is going on, but he really needs to get some quality food and supplements in there. Best of wishes for the little guy...he's such a good looking tegu and you obviously worry about him and want the best.

Have you seen this link? I wasn't sure if someone posted it or not.
http://herpvetconnection.com/


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## chelvis (May 12, 2011)

So in conclution a varied diet is what is best. It could be Ca defficancy in that case lowering the bulbs and variring the diet will help, or a vit defficancy which changing the diet will help. It could be a bit of both considering the curcumstance. 

As for the egg thing, its fine in moderation, I have heard Owls diet and egg is not a primary food, there for its fine. The other things that are fed to supplement any vit lost. The problem comes when people fed eggs to young tegus and they get hooked. There are mulitpal treads about people feedign hatclings eggs and turkey and the tegu will refuse to eat anything else that becomes the problem. 

Lets face it no one (not even vets) really are good with tegu nutrition, only resently have vets really paid attention to nutrition at all. Best course for Kimo is to get those UV lights closer or a MVB, this will help with vit absorbtion as well as Ca absorbtion. Second action which i have seen you have done is to get different foods in. As for outside for such a young tegu and a mild case i would say the MVB is fine.


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## Max713 (May 12, 2011)

laurarfl said:


> And if you supplement with B vitamins, feeding raw egg whites isn't an issue, either. The raw egg/avidin issue popped up when monitor keepers were feeding a huge proportion of raw eggs to their lizards.
> 
> None of us are herp vets and we are just speculating over the Internet...just keeping it real and not trying to offend anyone. There are probably a few things going on that are diet related. On the one hand, there is obviously a calcium deficiency in the diet, a lack of UVB, a D vitamin deficiency because the calcium prob doesn't have D3 and the UVB issue, and other vitamin deficiencies from being fed only turkey. Sorry, Max, I don't mean to sound harsh, just being objective. So everyone is right. Calcium concerns bones and muscle, so there will be weakness. B vitamins concern nerve transmission and skin health, among other things, so there will be weakness. Vit A also affect skin and connective tissue. Many of things together can add up to soft jaws, affected skin elasticity, muscle weakness, all sorts of things that can show up as that little open lip.
> 
> ...


Be harsh! 
The only thing I care about it Kimo's health, my own feelings can be sacrificed.



chelvis said:


> So in conclution a varied diet is what is best. It could be Ca defficancy in that case lowering the bulbs and variring the diet will help, or a vit defficancy which changing the diet will help. It could be a bit of both considering the curcumstance.
> 
> As for the egg thing, its fine in moderation, I have heard Owls diet and egg is not a primary food, there for its fine. The other things that are fed to supplement any vit lost. The problem comes when people fed eggs to young tegus and they get hooked. There are mulitpal treads about people feedign hatclings eggs and turkey and the tegu will refuse to eat anything else that becomes the problem.
> 
> Lets face it no one (not even vets) really are good with tegu nutrition, only resently have vets really paid attention to nutrition at all. Best course for Kimo is to get those UV lights closer or a MVB, this will help with vit absorbtion as well as Ca absorbtion. Second action which i have seen you have done is to get different foods in. As for outside for such a young tegu and a mild case i would say the MVB is fine.


Ok, I'm going to keep pushing new foods on him, like I said he tried a piece of heart for the first time yesterday, hoping the change will continue.
I put the bulb in the mail today, hoping to get that issue fixed asap. Actually took a measurement inside the enclosure, the tube is 20 from his basking spot, the bulb will be around 16" from the basking spot, maybe closer to 15". Think that would be satisfactory?

It's reassuring to hear that once he begins to improve, he will improve in many ways! (energy, strength, skin, appetite, etc)


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## VARNYARD (May 12, 2011)

What about adding the beef liver I have on my care sheet?


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## Max713 (May 13, 2011)

VARNYARD said:


> What about adding the beef liver I have on my care sheet?


I'm thinking my next run to the store will be for beef liver/cod oil.



Small update, nothing really new...
Kimo refused any food today (not entirely unlike him), seems he's "sleepy" again.
Now, the only way for him to get better will be eating all the nutrients/vits he can.
At what point to I intervene and forcefully provide him with the vits/minerals/sustenance he needs? It's not that he's not eating (obviously), and I have no concerns with his body weight, he's very healthy looking, other than the problem at hand... 

I'm sure that would only be a drastic measure, then again I want to put him on the fast track to full health. Recently (last week or so) he's been eating every day, in small amounts. Before that it was only every other day or so.
Is a need for forceful intervention a long way off like I'm hoping, or may it need to come sooner?

Thanks again.


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## chelvis (May 13, 2011)

i would not force feed him if his weight is good. Force feeding can do more damage than good on a healthy tegu, either by having the tegu not trust you to sometimes getting food down the wrong pipe. Give him some time. He is going from a food he is use too and knows to something completly new. Its going to take some time before he realizes that this is food.


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## laurarfl (May 13, 2011)

Bobby, I've tried beef liver and mine turn their nose up at it. They will eat chicken liver though. Liver would be a great source of vitamins at this point.

And yes...I think a varied diet is awesome...for people and animals.

I don't think you need to force feed, but perhaps assist feeding is a good idea. You can buy eye droppers or syringes at the store. I have gone to Walgreens and asked for small syringes without needles for hand feeding sick animals. If you tell them you have a sick lizard you need to give medicine to, they will look at you funny and laugh, but figure that story is so weird that it has to be the truth!

Get a small jar of Stage 1 chicken or turkey baby food and put a 1/2 teaspoon of calcium in it. Then syringe feed what you need. That's a higher dose of calcium than normal supplementation (about double) so I would only do it for the first week. You don't want to go too far the other way and have a diet too high in calcium. I see Zilla has a liquid calcium supplement that may be good for giving directly, but I've never used it before. I just threw away my multivitamins, but I would add some in to the baby food as well, but not as much. I'd put in 1/8 teaspoon in the whole jar. This is just what I would do. I came up with the numbers based on the RepCal directions for adding supplementation to a pound of food and then figured down to a 3-4 oz baby food jar. Oral calcium powder isn't really highly absorbed in the body anyway, so it's not something to overdose on. 

I know the D3 issue is controversial, but I would add it into the diet for a little while during this recovery stage. You can add it through liver, fish liver oil, or Vit D added calcium. You can also water down the baby food a bit to make sure Kimo is staying hydrated. Just open his mouth a bit and squirt some into his mouth, sideways and not down his throat. The idea is to get it into his mouth so that he swallows it, you're not forcing it or squirting it down his throat.

If he doesn't eat and get the calcium in orally, then he will need to go to the vet to get either a liquid calcium gluconate or calcium injections. At that point the vet can also determine if there are any other issues going on.


haha, Chelvis, we must have been posting at the same time! Max, it is really up to you. I think getting some supplements in him will increase his appetite. The calcium and low B vitamin definitely lower the appetite. Then you end up with a vicious cycle of not eating and nutritional deficiencies.


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## herpocrite27 (May 13, 2011)

I have dealt with MBD so I feel I should add my 2 in. I wouldnt feed many bannana's or eggs. I've read that too many of these two in paticular, will hinder how your Gu takes in calcium. My MBD was caused by too many eggs and a 10.0 UVB tube bulb that didnt put out enough UVB. 
Just be glad this isnt happening right before hibernation like mine was. Mine didnt want to lay under the lights or eat, all he wanted to do was hibernate. After multiple trips to the vet and countless force feedings, I just let him hibernate. When he woke up in Febuary, he started eating and laying under his powersun. Now he has grown well over a foot since February and no lasting effects from the MBD. I dont think the shots did as much as getting the power Sun and limiting eggs. 
I feed: chicken livers, chicken hearts, venison "deer meat", turkey necks "ground up", fish, rats, mice, beef liver, ground turkey, cod liver oil and a half hardboiled egg "once a week". 
Dont get discouraged, he should be fine. I hope this helped somewhat. good luck with your little guy


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## carcharios (May 14, 2011)

Diego had the same thing when he was about that size. He went for several months not eating and partially hibernating and when he awoke, I also noticed a small bulge on one side of his jaw. I took him to the vet thinking it was in infection. She checked it out and saw no signs of bacterial infection however. Regardless, she did give me some oral antibiotics but I was never good about administering them.

Long story short, a few months later, I took Diego out of his inside aquarium, moved him to the outside rabbit hutch set up, starting feeding him chicken necks, and aside from tripling his size, the bulge mysteriously disappeared. My guess is that it was either caused by a shortage of calcium, which the chicken necks corrected, or a shortage of UV, which moving him outside corrected. Either way, the bulge in his jaw is now completely gone and there are no signs that it ever existed.


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## Max713 (May 21, 2011)

Update for everyone:
Kimo's doing a lot better, still a pretty picky eater, can't get him to eat much more that turkey, but at least it is now heavily supplemented. Got the powersun back in his enclosure too.
He just went into shed today, hoping it goes smoothly, and his jaw is looking a lot better, he's been even more active these days.


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## Rhetoric (May 21, 2011)

He does look a lot better, glad hes improving! I love when they get the little socks around their feet lololol.


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## Little Wise Owl (May 21, 2011)

What are you supplementing his turkey with?


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## Max713 (May 21, 2011)

Little Wise Owl said:


> What are you supplementing his turkey with?



Repti-Cal w/o D3


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## Little Wise Owl (May 21, 2011)

Have you tried mixing various mashed up food items in the turkey? Or wrapping around a food item you want him to eat with turkey to make sort of a stuffed meatball?


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## Rhetoric (May 21, 2011)

I'm not sure if there are any meaty baby foods but I used baby food for a while to get Guru to eat his veggies LOL. Obviously, make sure there aren't any funky additives.


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## Little Wise Owl (May 21, 2011)

I did the same with my bearded dragon when he was being a jerk and not eating his veggies. He loved Squash and Green Bean baby food.


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