# Stupid (to me) question



## iiLOVExTEGUS (Jan 20, 2013)

Ok I feel as if I should know this but do columbians hibernate because when I got mine I was told it was well first off I was told it was an argintenian tegu and that he always comes out ect ect but ever since he's been in his enclosure he's been in his hide not eating nor showing any sign of him being there so can anyone help with this problem AND I ALREADY KNOW THAT MY TEMPS ARE OK SO DON'T ASK!!!!!


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Jan 20, 2013)

_They slow down and or brumate but not hibernate. They can spend days sleeping and or hiding, come up to bask maybe eat and repeat.
Idk how long you have been waiting for an answer or trying to figure it out,  but the search engine in the top right corner would have quickly answered it for you._


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## dragonmetalhead (Jan 20, 2013)

You sure your tegu is Colombian? Post some pics, please.


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## iiLOVExTEGUS (Jan 20, 2013)

Not able to post pics because I'm using an I pad but I bought him from a person for 60 who said he originally paid 85 he said he was argintenian but after posting this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYnijzBpPgo&feature=youtube_gdata_player people here said he was columbian


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## Roadkill (Jan 20, 2013)

First, brumation IS hibernation. They are one and the same.

I've been told that _Tupinambis teguixin_ don't hibernate/brumate, but I'm not so sure this is true. I don't have any hard evidence to back up my beliefs on this, but the more I've done research on reptilian hibernation, the more I'm convinced that under the right circumstances, nearly all reptiles will display some variant of depressed metabolism that can be linked to cooler temperatures. However, more specifically with the Colombians, what I can say is when I was doing research on tegu hibernation in Brasil, I was frequently in areas where _T.teguixin_ were said to be present, and I can honestly say I never saw one during "winter". I have to admit, as a scientist, not seeing something doesn't mean much of anything, but it does make one think that if you're in an area where you have the two prominent species, one is said to hibernate, the other supposedly doesn't, you'd think during the winter you'd be more likely to see the one species.


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## kim86 (Jan 20, 2013)

How long have you had him for? He may be hiding because he's still scared and not used to his surroundings.


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## iiLOVExTEGUS (Jan 20, 2013)

kim86 said:


> How long have you had him for? He may be hiding because he's still scared and not used to his surroundings.



That's what I'm starting to think cuz I've only had him 3 weeks but him not eating is worrying me


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## kim86 (Jan 20, 2013)

Put a plate of food in his enclosure, with a towel underneath just to be safe. He will eat if he wants to and that way you aren't adding any stress by taking him out to feed.


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## iiLOVExTEGUS (Jan 20, 2013)

I've been doin that minus the towel but no sign of him


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## kim86 (Jan 20, 2013)

Give it some time, I'm sure he'll come around


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## iiLOVExTEGUS (Jan 20, 2013)

I hope soo


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## dragonmetalhead (Jan 21, 2013)

iiLOVExTEGUS said:


> Not able to post pics because I'm using an I pad but I bought him from a person for 60 who said he originally paid 85 he said he was argintenian but after posting this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYnijzBpPgo&feature=youtube_gdata_player people here said he was columbian



Yep, that's a Colombian. Just wanted to make sure. When I bought Kodo, he was labeled as an Argentine, too.


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## iiLOVExTEGUS (Jan 21, 2013)

dragonmetalhead said:


> iiLOVExTEGUS said:
> 
> 
> > Not able to post pics because I'm using an I pad but I bought him from a person for 60 who said he originally paid 85 he said he was argintenian but after posting this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYnijzBpPgo&feature=youtube_gdata_player people here said he was columbian
> ...



Yea in a way it's disappointing don't get me wrong columbian argentine red black and white whatever it doesn't matter to me but it sucks because I was under the impression that he was argentine and fairly tame


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## Lynda (Jan 22, 2013)

[attachment=6209]


iiLOVExTEGUS said:


> Not able to post pics because I'm using an I pad but I bought him from a person for 60 who said he originally paid 85 he said he was argintenian but after posting this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYnijzBpPgo&feature=youtube_gdata_player people here said he was columbian



I post pics with my I pad... just did this one


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## iiLOVExTEGUS (Jan 23, 2013)

:0 how did u do it I haven't been able to figure it out


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Jan 23, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> First, brumation IS hibernation. They are one and the same.
> 
> I've been told that _Tupinambis teguixin_ don't hibernate/brumate, but I'm not so sure this is true. I don't have any hard evidence to back up my beliefs on this, but the more I've done research on reptilian hibernation, the more I'm convinced that under the right circumstances, nearly all reptiles will display some variant of depressed metabolism that can be linked to cooler temperatures. However, more specifically with the Colombians, what I can say is when I was doing research on tegu hibernation in Brasil, I was frequently in areas where _T.teguixin_ were said to be present, and I can honestly say I never saw one during "winter". I have to admit, as a scientist, not seeing something doesn't mean much of anything, but it does make one think that if you're in an area where you have the two prominent species, one is said to hibernate, the other supposedly doesn't, you'd think during the winter you'd be more likely to see the one species.



_Hibernate, brumate, estivate, dormancy even torpor,.. same difference. While plenty of people have experienced or heard of a B&W, Red or even Blue tegu hibernating (as the common definition and as most people see it), rarely is that the case with Colombians. I only say rarely because I remember either on this site or the other, someone claiming that their colombian did actually hibernate.

On a technical level the term hibernation should be used over anythng else regardless of the type of animal, location, metabolic changes or not. Since definitions change over the years as people learn more, (right or wrong) specific words are created to fit specific conditions or situations, when the other doesn't. 

Same = Most animals that hibernate go through changes in preperation for and over the winter months.
Difference = is how the changes occur as well as what those changes and habits are. Which is where and why all the other terms were created.

There's more than one type of tomato or potato right, even pronunciations and uses for each, but they're still tomatoes and potatoes.

Whether or not you choose to use the different terms is personal preference really. When people actually do know the difference anyway _


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## Roadkill (Jan 23, 2013)

You are correct, you can chose to use whatever term you want. Brumation or hibernation, doesn't matter, they're the same, but your statement


> They slow down and or brumate but not hibernate.


indicates that brumation is different from hibernation. It isn't, they are the same. I bring this up because as people continue to use the terminology inaccurately, they promote confusion and wrong ideas. You aren't figuratively saying _pomme de terre_ is just another expression for potato, you said a _pomme de terre_ is NOT a potato. I think there's enough confusion around the issue, so I try to clear it up.


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## Dubya (Jan 23, 2013)

I like taters.


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## iiLOVExTEGUS (Jan 23, 2013)

Dubya said:


> I like taters.



With BBQ sauce or ketchup


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## BatGirl1 (Jan 25, 2013)

I thought brumate was a lighter 'hibernation ' meaning slowing/sleeping but still getting up periodically for food/water where hibernation was solid slumber with only rare exceptions from time to time to drink. My bats used to go into torpor  i thought that was their special word ... 

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## Roadkill (Jan 25, 2013)

Here's a little something I wrote up years ago to clear up the issue for another forum:

Quiescent States in Vertebrates 101
Terminology
Sleep: The state of sleep as described in mammals is characterized by recurrent spontaneous bouts of inactivity with concomitant elevated thresholds of sensory response and greatly reduced cognitive function or unconsciousness (McGinty & Beahm, 1984). Sleep is differentiated from other states of unconsciousness, such as coma, by being readily reversible. Electroencephalographic (EEG) studies show mammals and birds possess two distinct phases of sleep, slow wave sleep (SWS) and paradoxical sleep (PS). Slow wave sleep, also known as non-rapid-eye-movement (NREM) sleep, is associated with synchronized cortical EEG activity of high amplitude and low frequency with occasional high frequency spikes while paradoxical sleep (PS), also known as rapid-eye-movement (REM) or activated sleep, is associated with desynchronized EEG activity of low amplitude very similar to that seen in the awake state (Steriade, et al., 1993). In endotherms, sleep is associated with a progressive decline in brain temperature (Tbr) and metabolism as sleep duration increases (for review, see Heller & Glotzbach, 1977). Sleep also has behavioural correlates such as specific sleep sites or postures and a distinct latency of behavioural response to stimulation (for review, see McGinty & Beahm, 1984).
Many of the criteria that have been used to identify sleep states in mammals and birds do not describe the sleeping condition seen in less encephalized animals such as reptiles. Attempts to quantify reptilian cortical EEG activity using mammalian characteristics (e.g. Huntley, et al., 1977; Meglasson & Huggins, 1979; Huntley & Cohen, 1980) have been relatively unsuccessful. While spike EEG activity homologous with that recorded from mammalian limbic systems does arise from the forebrain of reptiles during sleep (Diaz, et al., 1973; Hartse, et al., 1979), and is absent in both taxa during wakefulness, sleep states in reptiles with EEG profiles comparable to those seen in mammals are usually no longer than a few seconds occurring in bouts of "behavioural sleep" lasting several hours (Huntley & Cohen, 1980; K. Rogers & W.K. Milsom, unpublished data). Sleep in reptiles therefore is usually quantified based on behavioural criteria which include posture, closed eyelids, increased latency of responses to stimulation, and reduced but regular ventilation and cardiac frequencies (Flanigan, 1973, 1974; Flanigan, et al., 1973, 1974; Huntley, et al., 1977; Huntley & Cohen, 1980). 

Torpor: Torpor was first used to describe the phenomenon during which many endotherms allow their body temperatures to drop below levels considered normal for sleep, but not as low as the levels typically observed in hibernation (Morrison & Ryser, 1959; Tucker, 1962; MacMillen, 1964). As such, torpor usually involves a drop in Tb greater than 5°C and as much as 15°-20°C below normal, a reduction in resting metabolic rate by more than 25%, and usually occurs on a daily basis during the normal quiescent period of sleep. It may, however, extend over several days (Heller, et al., 1978; Hudson & Scott, 1979; Körtner & Geiser, 2000). 
The term torpor has never been defined clearly as it pertains to ectotherms, and this has lead to its free use to describe nearly any quiescent state. There are researchers that subscribe to the idea that torporis simply a function of reduced body temperature (e.g. Hock, 1958) and others that use torpor and hibernation interchangeably to denote the winter quiescent period (e.g. Binyon & Twigg, 1965; Ultsch, 1989). Most researchers have adopted the term in the mammalian sense to describe a profound daily reduction in metabolism due to declining ambient temperature during the inactive phase (e.g. Potter & Glass, 1931; Holzapfel, 1937; Willis, et al., 1956). As such, it involves a daily reduction in metabolism to a level below that predicted by changes in body temperature alone, is readily reversible and involves a greater latency of responsiveness to stimulation than that associated with sleep.

Hibernation: In general usage, to hibernate is to spend the winter in an inactive, sleep-like state and occurs in practically every phylum. For endothermic vertebrates it generally involves a seasonal reduction in body temperature to levels within a few degrees of ambient temperature (Ta). Hibernation occurs in bouts that last for periods of days, weeks, or even months and that are interspersed by short periods of arousal during which the animals spontaneously rewarm (Körtner & Geiser, 2000) and may undertake moderate activity. The duration of these bouts varies from species to species as well as with ambient temperature and position in the winter season (early, mid, late) within species (Twente & Twente, 1965; Twente, et al., 1977; Kenagy, 1981; French 1982; Wilz & Heldmaier, 2000).
Hibernation in ectothermic vertebrates, unfortunately, is not well defined. There do appear, however, to be some common physiological phenomena correlated with hibernation observed in ectotherms and in particular, in reptiles (Bennett & Dawson, 1976.) Preparation for entrance into hibernation begins well before the winter season with many reptiles spontaneously initiating fasting in the fall (Cagle, 1950; Hernandez & Coulson, 1952; Musacchia & Sievers, 1956; Hutton & Goodnight, 1957; Coulson & Hernandez, 1964; Mayhew, 1965; Chabreck & Joanen, 1969; Fitch & von Achen, 1977; Abe, 1983; de Andrade & Abe, 1999). It also involves what has been termed by some as "inverse acclimatization" (Mayhew, 1965; Jacobson & Whitford, 1970; Gatten, 1978; Patterson & Davies, 1978; Johansen & Lykkeboe, 1979; Abe, 1983). Many reptiles increase their metabolic rate to compensate for cold temperatures (Roberts, 1968; Tinkle and Hadley, 1973; Dutton and Fitzpatrick, 1975; Ruby, 1977) and some develop an insensitivity of metabolic rate to changes in body temperature (Gelineo, 1967). This acclimation usually occurs in reptiles inhabiting regions with little or moderate seasonal variation and allows them to continue to function normally at lower temperatures. Inverse acclimatization, or hibernation, on the other hand occurs in reptiles that inhabit regions with more pronounced seasonality and involves active metabolic suppression.

Dormancy: There appears to be some confusion in the literature surrounding the terms dormancy and hibernation, especially when used with respect to reptiles. Many authors interchange the terms and give them equal meaning; others use hibernation to denote a specific type of dormancy (e.g. Mayhew, 1965; Gregory, 1982). Hibernation in common usage refers to winter inactivity while dormancy has no similar temporal qualification. For the purpose of this dissertation, dormancy is used as a general reference to any quiescent state involving reduced metabolic rate, including sleep, torpor, aestivation (a quiescent state associated with excessive heat) and hibernation.

Brumation: Mayhew (1965) proposed the term brumation to define inactivity and physiological changes identified with winter dormancy in ectotherms that occur independent of body temperature, to differentiate it from simple cold-induced inactivity, and hibernation seen in mammals. While some authors have adopted the term (e.g. Gaffney and Fitzpatrick, 1973; Huey & Pianka, 1977; Hutchinson, 1979; Rismiller & Heldmaier, 1982), it has not achieved wide acceptance academically, and most authors overlook the distinction of the state being temperature independent.

Synopsis
In plain english, hibernation is well definied in mammals, and the criteria used to define it does not exactly match what we would observe in reptiles. However, we can draw certain analogies to come up with a reptilian "version" of hibernation. For a state to be called "hibernation" in reptiles (and to differentiate it from sleep or cold induced "coma"), it would have to have seasonal reference (winter), inactivity (sort of sleeping) and involve a concomitant supressed metabolism (that is, metabolism that is even lower than what would be predicted by temperature effects alone - or in other words, their metabolism would be independent of temperature). We therefore see that the phenomenon defined by Mayhew as "brumation" is EXACTLY what we would describe as "hibernation" in a reptile.

As seen in some of the posts (and elsewhere), many want to draw a distinction by saying "hibernation" does not have arousals whereas "brumation" has some activity. By looking at the scientific literature, we see that "hibernation" in mammals does indeed involve arousals. People assume that in reptiles this does not occur, but what they forget is that this is an assumption only. Recent studies with modern technological advancements has shown us that our previously held beliefs of reptiles being inactive during hibernation are false. Like mammals, reptiles too will arouse periodically during "hibernation". In temperate areas, we just do not naturally observe this because if the animals left their hibernacula they would die from exposure. They are, however, active within their burrows (or in cases like turtles/terrapins, have been recorded moving around under the ice of frozen bodies of water).

About the only distinction between "hibernation" in mammals and "hibernation/brumation" in reptiles is seen in the energy substrate used during the dormancy. Mammals choose lipids for their energy, whereas reptiles retain storage of the lipids as the lipids become more important for post-hibernation purposes (primarily for deposition in macrolecithal eggs by females, courtship and competition by males). Some studies have indicated reptiles use glycogen, while there are other observations that indicate they may utilize protein energy substrates.

Boiled down, brumation IS hibernation in reptiles. There is still debate amongst physiologists in regards to this topic, and that is whether sleep, torpor and hibernation/brumation are distinctly separate physiological states, or merely points along a continuum. The distinct states argument hinges upon the definitions being the "end all and be all" of the argument (ie. beings as torpor is a daily pattern while hibernation is a seasonal pattern, they are distinct) while the continuum argument points out the many many examples of phenomena that don't tightly fit one definition or another and lie somewhere inbetween. My own research in reptiles has me in the continuum group. 

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## BatGirl1 (Jan 25, 2013)

Nice  when I rehabbed bats they would go into torpor in the winter and each day to feed them i'd have to warm them in my hands and rub them to 'wake them up ' and they'd do this cool vibration thing to get themselves ready to eat.  even in the summer they'd do the vibrating thing because they had to be a certain temp to eat and during sleep it always goes down. 

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## Roadkill (Jan 25, 2013)

That's a combination of brown fat metabolism and shivering, to help warm themselves up. Bats have these pads of brown fat located in various areas of the body (predominantly over the back), which are basically organs of adipose tissue densely packed with mitochondria, where the electron transport chain is decoupled and energy cycles "free run" to produce nothing more than heat. Most mammalian babies have this property, including humans. Bats are one of the few groups that retain brown fat into adulthood due to the frequency with which they utilize torpor for energy conservation. The bats you were working with, due to needing rehabbing for whatever reason, likely had burned up all/most their brown fat.


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## BatGirl1 (Jan 25, 2013)

They were wonderful to work with.amazing creatures. I miss them but they were verrrryyyy time consuming and expensive to care for. The babies were my favorite  little bald froglike creatures with naked wings. Feeding them 'wombaroo ' and watching them grow, teaching them to fly and the bittersweet release.  I'm glad my reptillian babies don't have to leave 

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Hey... I was just thinking. Even my fat ones used to do that to warm up to eat. Why do you think that is? Just the 'type ' of fat that it was? 

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## Roadkill (Jan 25, 2013)

BG, I think you somewhat misunderstood my statement. The vibration was shivering, one method of warming up, and brown fat metabolism is another method of warming up, also termed non-shivering thermogenesis. Utilizing the brown fat tissue is just a simple "heat pack" phenomenon, it doesn't contribute to the vibrations you were witnessing. Shivering would be used by both fat and emaciated animals, it requires muscle which is usually consumed last in challenged mammals. Brown fat tissue, on the other hand, would likely be present in proper weight individuals, but sacrificed by those that had been starved.


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## BatGirl1 (Jan 26, 2013)

Oh i thought you meant the ones that depleted it needed to shiver because they couldn't keep warm with the brown fat... ok. 

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## Bubblz Calhoun (Jan 27, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> You are correct, you can chose to use whatever term you want. Brumation or hibernation, doesn't matter, they're the same, but your statement
> 
> 
> > They slow down and or brumate but not hibernate.
> ...



_Got me there  ._


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