# What would be the best combination ?



## Gedy (Mar 20, 2012)

Spunky is just one year old, but I got curious from all the breeding post lately so I was wondering if I should try to breed with my gu, what kind of partner should I get him if I want to breed with him ?
This is for the far future, im not planning to do so right now.... I don't even know if Spunky is a he or she jet  ! But when he is all mature and it feels right I would love to see him(or her) have baby's.
He is a B&w arg., but if I would like something different what would be a combination that is healty and pretty ?


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## reptastic (Mar 20, 2012)

Its hard to say you have to considering what you want to produce, what spunky looks like and if possible what has his lineage produced, I want to produce high whites with a higher lever of white than black therefore ill be breeding my female(both parents high white b/w's and she has potential) to a high white blue, I should get some nice high whites from that pairing


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## Gedy (Mar 21, 2012)

I like the high whites, but Spunky sure isn't like that. Is the white a dominant or recessive gene ?


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 21, 2012)

God, it's not even a gene. Just because you breed a blue to a high white doesn't mean you will get high whites. I won't get into this, but I suggest breeding it to a normal b&w, as in my opinion they only get less attractive as you cross them out, no matter the type.


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## larissalurid (Mar 21, 2012)

Yea the person above is right, the two could have babies that look nothing like them basically. I don't really like the idea of how everyone is starting to cross now. I mean maybe a few type of mixes like there already are seems enough, but once you just start mixing all different ones around there's never going to be any purebreds left and the whole species will just become all mixed together without anyone knowing any true bloodlines. I'd just go with another B&W, find a nice pretty one with good structure and health is what I'd look at.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 21, 2012)

Yeah, look at a black and white X red breeding. They turn out looking brown. It's not like ball pythons, where if you breed an albino to an albino you get an albino. Low white blues can come from high white blue parents. Dark black and whites can come from high white black and white parents.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 21, 2012)

_I don't get the logic in this ^ ^ ^ even if you bred albino x albino that doesn't mean all the babies will be albino. You can still have normal looking hets, there are no guarantees one way or another. B&W x B&W, Dominant or Co dominant genes, cross bred or not some will still look better than others and that's just personal preference.

As for mixing and there not being any true blood lines left. Most tegus are still imported so there's always fresh blood for now, and there are still quite a few breeders who don't cross breed and keep records. 

Reptiles aren't like mammals where they can be health tested before breeding. So most people breed for looks and to enhance one thing over another mainly color and size.

The main issues as usual are human related, where people don't care and just do what ever while others support it. By that I mean supporting people who go into it with out keeping records, breed their animals to young and or in any condition with questionable motives and husbandry. 

At the same time not every animal (just like people) should be bred, especially if it's just to see them have babies. That's why we have issues with over populated cats and dogs now._


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## reptastic (Mar 21, 2012)

I don't get the logic either, if you look at a blueXred some take on traits of both parent other make take on traits of only one of the parents, I don't want to be a breeder, however I would like to at least breed my tegus once maybe twice, like bubblz said most of the big breeders do not cross breed so I don't see how a few people doing hybrids is going to change the pure tegus, 99.9% of us don't know our tegus linage we don't know who their ancestors bred with in the wild so whois to say any tegus is pure?


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 21, 2012)

Who are most of the big breeders? Bobby crosses. Teguterra crosses. As far as I know Wil doesn't cross but he's 1/3.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 21, 2012)

_Yeah they do with some, but not all of their tegus are cross bred. Then you have places like LLL, Underground (some crosses) and Outback that breed and or have imports often._


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 21, 2012)

LLL doesn't breed they only import, Underground does breed but not on a huge scale, and Outback also only imports. So again there's 4 "big" breeders(Bobby, TeguTerra, Wil, Underground) and at least 3 of them do cross. I never said all of their stock is crossed but they DO cross. You said most of the big breeders don't cross.... So Reptastic, who are the "most" of the big breeders that don't cross breed?


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## reptastic (Mar 21, 2012)

What I mant is they keep their lines pure, bobby received a hybrid so he bred her to his giant, same with johnny, bobby has one female hybrid and decided to breed her too his giant, the rest of his lines are pure, idk much about johnny's line but I do recall him receiving a few hybrid tegus(underground I know nothing of them and I know wil dosent hybrid breed, as far as I know hybrid breeding isn't common, other than the blueXreds, I know others have been done but you don't see them too often


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 21, 2012)

I have seen Johnny selling quite a few redXb&w hybrids. I have seen Bobby selling his All American hybrids. He is making a mixed line so technically he is keeping his lines pure by making a separate mixed line? They are continuing to breed hybrids no matter which way you want to put it. Which is what I said. That they breed hybrids... I never said they breed only hybrids, just that they breed hybrids, which they do.


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## reptastic (Mar 21, 2012)

I'm didn't mean to say they don't breed hybrids, idk about johnny other than what I read, but with the all americans its only one pair a female blueXred and an extreme giant compared to x amount of b/w's, extremes and reds he has breeding, I wasn't reffering to your comment but the one made by larissalurid, my comment to you was 2 seperate tegus ie a blue breeding to a high white b/w may not produce a clutch were ALL the hatchlings are high white but there will be some, its genetics, some may take after mom, some dad some a grandparent or even a great grand parent and some may take after both, I don't see the problem with hybrid breeding tegus to create something uncommon as long as I'm not doing it just for money, sure that's nice but the bigest reward fo me is seeing the differences in the offspring created


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 21, 2012)

Those genetics are unpredictable when it comes to hybrids. And the problem is that you're going to get a very large amount of "uncommon tegus" which will go to people who will sell them to people who may forget the genetics and then sell to someone else who breeds the animal etc etc etc. And there goes pure bloodlines. Reptiles change hands frequently, and stuff like hybrid genetics can get lost or confused during those processes. With the high amount of hybrids out there already and the fact that many people are starting to attempt to breed hybrids ie you, this guy, and others who have posted about breeding their tegus to other types, it is quite possible that we will not be able to know for sure what we are getting when we get a tegu.


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## reptastic (Mar 21, 2012)

I'm sure I won't be the first or the last to breed hybrids, sometimes adding new blood the genepool is beneficial, like I stated before we don't know as is what's pure and what's not, hybrid breeding has occured in the wild I'm sure, as long as breeders who produces many clutches per year and keeps them pure , I forsee no damages to "pure bloodlines" in the future, most of what ever we produce(my 1/2 will mostly go to friends)


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## JohnMatthew (Mar 22, 2012)

Wow, albino x albino doesn't produce all albino babies in tegus? I'd like to learn more about this because genetics in general fascinate me! Is there more than 1 line of albino out there, maybe it's a compatibility issue? Are there known clutches of albino x albino(isolated breeding with no chance of another animal contributing) where it wasn't either all normal looking hets or all albino produced you can share? Maybe there are different lines of albino out there? I can imagine a scenario with 2 visuals of different, incompatible lines breeding that would produce a clutch of visuals and hets but only if 1 of the animals was also het for the other's albino type.


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## laurarfl (Mar 22, 2012)

Hmmmm....I'm missing something here. If you breed true albino parents, you will get only true albino offspring. The gene is recessive. Parents aa x aa put offspring that are aa. They can't give offspring that are Aa. It's impossible. There are various type of albinism which is why it is better to speak of specific type of amelanism, etc.

If you look at photos of albino tegus, they are quite different looking. The definition of albinism is "a lack of dark pigment so that the animal is white or pinkish with red or pinkish eyes". There are a lot of tegus labelled albino that just look hypomelanistic to me or perhaps missing another pigment color. They have dark eyes and the eyes look photoshopped a deeper red, and they are a purer white with maybe lighter dark markings (thinking of many albino blues). Then there are some that are the reddish colored albino with reddish eyes. That is the true amelanistic (lacking brown/black pigment). So perhaps there is a hypomel form that breeds and the expression of the gene shows some offspring that aren't different from normals, and an amel that breeds true amels? And the hypo x amel pairing wouldn't be exactly the same

Just a thought


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 22, 2012)

[size=small]_There are different types, of albinism Ty neg (lacking pigment) and Ty pos (some pigment) and each one affects the body differently. Generally speaking if the parents carry the same type (are visual albinos) then yes all the babies will be albinos. If not then you'll still get hets and or different types of visuals but not all are compatible.

When ever I think of albinos and how it varies I think of Blood and Ball pythons. Like cherry bombs or just yellow albino bloods then with Ball python albinos there's HC, lavenders and paradoxs._[/size]


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 22, 2012)

Yeah, Laura's right it's a recessive gene. You get all albinos if you breed two visual albinos. It's simple genetics.


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## JohnMatthew (Mar 22, 2012)

Well, not all albino types are compatible, at least in the ball python word. I'd imagine the same would hold true for tegus. If you bred lavender albino x albino ball pythons you'd only get normal looking hets. The only way this pairing would produce visuals and hets would be if one or the other parent was also a carrier of the other parent's albino type(ie, the albino is also het for lavender albino).


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 22, 2012)

_If only genetics were simple then it would be that easy but that's not the case. Even with two visual albinos the type has to be the same or it's not compatible, so you get hets. You can have a het or two that carries both genes for albino, breed them together and you should get more hets and different visuals for each type. 

So you can still get normal looking hets from breeding a pair of visual albinos. 

There's the basics to genetics that most people know and there's a wide spectrum that few to no one knows about. That usually throws a wrench in what's expected to happen._


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 22, 2012)

Prove to me that there's 2 types of albino tegus. All the albino tegus come from the original few that came from Ron St. Pierre. That is ONE type. If you look at albino ball pythons, they range in shade in normal albinos, from really faded to high contrast. The same holds true for tegus. This is a simple issue of genetics. It is one type of albino, and there is no reason to believe that there are multiple types of albinos.


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## monstruo-the-tegu (Mar 22, 2012)

this is very confusing


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 22, 2012)

[size=small]_Google albino tegu and look at the different pics for yourself. If genetics are as simple, cut and dry as you say they are then it should be the same from one animal to the next. Therefore if there are different types of albinism in humans and other animals then why not tegus?

Just because you haven't seen it or may not be able to recognize the differences between the two (which it's not always easy) doesn't mean they don't exist. 

For Ty Neg Albinos they should be primarily yellow / orangish and white with red to pinkish eyes, since they lack pigmentation. Ty Pos Albinos on the other hand have some pigmentation, from greyish purple to almost black. 
Which reminds me of the red albinos someone hatched a while back. Can't wait to see what those look like as they mature.

There's probably not enough being bred or even available to find out if they're compatible or not, making them the same type or different. Since some people don't agree with breeding albino animals that require UVB for health reasons. 

As for where they came from, he may have been the first to procure or produce one but we don't know exactly what genes any of our tegus are carrying. Until they're bred and something different pops up.

I use to feel the same way you do,.. until I did my research._[/size]


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## laurarfl (Mar 22, 2012)

http://www.vmsherp.com/LCChromatophores.htm


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## got10 (Mar 22, 2012)

The best two types of tegus to breed together is Male and Female ..nuff said


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## Thumper (Mar 22, 2012)

Genetics is not always just as simple as recessive and dominant traits. I was recently reading about how there are three different genes involved in blue eyes in humans. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color. That is not exactly what my high school biology teacher taught me. 

One thing I've been saying is that blues and black and whites are both tupinambis marianae and considered the same species.


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## Bntegus (Mar 22, 2012)

tegusrawsome80 has hit the nail on the head. also there has been talking about people breeding wc in this post what is wrong with that you want new lines thats were there going to come from not some breeder with hold backs just my 2 cents.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 22, 2012)

All the albino tegus I have been able to find are similar looking. They all DO have some pigmentation. For example look at these links. http://www.bayareareptiles.com/MonitorsandTegus/TeguAlbino_ShowPiece1.jpg 
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/89386IMGP0073.JPG
http://media.photobucket.com/image/albino%20tegu/Sylviasravenwolfe/Animal%20Photography/Reptiles/albinotegucloser.jpg
All different shades with varying levels and colors of pigments. Now compare to this:
http://www.myballpython.com/assets/images/otherimages/albinofaded.jpg
http://www.ballpythonaddiction.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/albino03.jpg
http://www.for-goodness-snakes.com/images/ball_albino.jpg
These are all albino ball pythons, but their coloration differs just like the tegus. If you bred any of those BPs together, you would get all albinos still. The parents are just different shades. It is the same with the tegus.


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## Gedy (Mar 23, 2012)

I have to study a lot of genetics in animals, but we don't get to study a lot about repitle genetics unfortunatly.
I can't realy tell from the pictures, but do the have red eyes ? If not, it could be like genetics in cats/rabbits , where you have multiple genes to dertermine the collor like Thumper said.
But still two albino's only produce albino's because the lack of all other involving genes for collor. Unless there are some mutations but that are very rare cases.
I definitaly don't want to breed albino's, and its not possible to get albino's with my b&w.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 23, 2012)

[size=small]_What would be considered T-Albinos, the original pics are also on google.

http://www.thetegu.com/showthread.php?10066-Sorry-but-I-m-speechless-and-I-must-share-why&highlight=albino+tegu

There are a couple videos of males on you tube but it's hard to tell which one they might be T+/- Albinos because of the lights. But here's one of them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je-79yzcMKs

As for Bps

Albinos (T-)
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?144604-Albino

Lavender Albinos (also T- but not compatible with regular albinos)
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?144614-Lavender-Albino

Caramel Albinos (T+ some strains are also not compatible)
http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?144610-Caramel-Albino

Paradox Albino Pied (Not a specific type of albino but gives you an idea of how things change,.. genetics are not just straight forward, black and white.)
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1963905%2C1964110

That's just a few Bps and Tegus, the colors change even more from one reptile to the next. _[/size]


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## laurarfl (Mar 23, 2012)

Bubblz Calhoun said:


> [size=small]_What would be considered T-Albinos, the original pics are also on google.
> 
> http://www.thetegu.com/showthread.php?10066-Sorry-but-I-m-speechless-and-I-must-share-why&highlight=albino+tegu
> 
> ...


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 23, 2012)

Thanks, I know what different MORPHS of ball pythons look like. In every single one of those tegus with the possible exception of the one in the thread at the show, I see some form of dark pigment, just a different shade.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 23, 2012)

[size=small]_The first two have no dark pigment, dark pigment in T+ Albinos can look normal from purplish grey to blood red. Which neither one of those first two have. They're more on the yellow, pinkish or orangey (not a word) side like the Bps you posted that are compatible. Therefore they would or actually could be T-Albinos. There's only one way to find out if they are compatible with Albino Tegus that have darker pigmentation and that's to breed a pair. 

You compared the two your self when you said;_[/size]



TegusRawsome80 said:


> Prove to me that there's 2 types of albino tegus. All the albino tegus come from the original few that came from Ron St. Pierre. That is ONE type. If you look at *albino ball pythons, they range in shade in normal albinos, from really faded to high contrast. The same holds true for tegus.* This is a simple issue of genetics. *It is one type of albino, and there is no reason to believe that there are multiple types of albinos. *



[size=small]_So once again, if the same holds true for Bps and Tegus (which you said) then why wouldn't there be more than one type of Albino Tegu? No matter what type the shade and colors will vary, in no way does that make them (T+/-) the same. Even when shown proof of there being different types of Albinism and how they're not compatible. Meaning if you breed two visual albinos of different types you get normal looking hets,... you still deny it. Where did the logic go?

All the Bps you posted were T- albinos (compatible for mating) and the Tegus could be T+. You said all the tegus you found were similar so I posted a couple that are not.

Can one of the Mods split this into a new thread,.. it's definitely gone in a different direction from the Ops question. _[/size]


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 23, 2012)

If the tegus show any sort of dark pigment, they are the same type of albino, and in my opinion all of these tegus do have a type of dark pigment.


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