# Twitching, Tremors, MBD, UV and D3.



## VARNYARD (Dec 12, 2007)

I have seen this twitching before in tegus that did not have UV lighting, it is not a pretty sight. Basically, some of the animals looked like they were suffering minor convulsions. As for tegu twitching, I think it is well known that Calcium deficiency is probably the leading killer of tegus in captivity. I think it can also be from an environmental problem, such as tegus becoming too hot, and maybe the answer to this trembling and twitching.
But remember, a diet abundant in calcium will do your tegus no good if the calcium to phosphorus ratio is not correct. It will also be a useless mineral if vitamin D3 is not present - a vitamin most easily obtained through exposure to unfiltered sunlight, or UV lighting. However, vitamin D3 is not a substitute for UV lighting, it also can be overdosed if not fed sparingly. Excess vitamin D3 supplementation, especially in combination with calcium may result in organ toxicity. 

Metastatic calcification and gout are common results. Gout is a common clinical sign of this problem, (calcium hydroxyapatite) deposits usually appear as irregular firm swellings over joints in the limbs and on ribs, back bones, this also can be seen in the head shapes, often times disfigurement can be seen in the animals. I use UV lighting and I use supplements. This has worked great for me, as the old saying goes; if it is not broke, don't fix it. In my opinion supplements are not a replacement and it is not worth taking a chance. I think UV lighting is a much better choice in any case. However, I do not think tegus would have the same problems that green iguanas have shown. Tegus are omnivores; the intake of calcium is much higher due to the intake of rodents. It is improper calcium metabolism what leads to MBD, and that is because of improper calcium metabolism the body takes what it needs from the bones, thus causing MBD. And sometimes you will find that some reptiles do not absorb enough calcium even with the right vitamins and proper diet, their bodies throws it off as waste. It is rare, but does happen. The deposition of calcium in the internal organs, this is primarily found in arboreal lizards, iguanas, chameleons and anoles. The only terrestrial lizard I have heard of having this problem is Swifts. 

I have heard that vitamin supplements with D3 were a great substitute for UV lighting. I have disagreed about this from the first time this discussion was brought up. This only confirms my belief on a way to sell albino tegus with an excuse that UV is not needed and can be substituted with vitamin D3. UV lighting is working to keep healthy tegus; it is also not a risk as with using this supplement. The big question would be, would you depend on supplements that are not proven to be sufficient, verses UV lighting that we all know works just fine? In my opinion, it is not worth taking the risks. 

I would say that the supplements are just that. They are not a substitute for UV lighting. For a healthy tegu, I will still recommend UV lighting, as well as supplements. But I will not say you need one without the other unless they are housed outside with natural sunlight. I still use a vitamin supplements however. Tegus fed rodents and that have proper UV lighting do not require added D3.


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## DaveDragon (Dec 12, 2007)

Early in our herp "career" we bought a Bearded Dragon from a woman we met at an Animal Planet Expo. She was a first time breeder. she had them all over the house in 10 gallon tanks with no UVB. The day after we brought him home he started having convulsions! We did some research and quickly started giving him a drop or two of Bone Aid every day and he quickly recovered. I emailed her, told her what happened and mention she better get some UVB for her little ones before it's too late.


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## olympus (Dec 12, 2007)

When I first got my tegu the people I got her from told me you can substitute D3 for UVB lighting. At the time I didn't know much about tegus but I knew that wasn't true.


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## VARNYARD (Dec 27, 2007)

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://webspinners.com/coloherp/cb-...111/AskVet.html">http://webspinners.com/coloherp/cb-...111/AskVet.html</a><!-- m -->




> Quote:
> Linda Randall, DVM, ABVP: Is it possible to overdose a herp on calcium?
> I have never been able to overdose a reptile with just calcium, nor have I spoken to a veterinarian who has. Reptiles are able to regulate the amount of calcium their body absorbs, and the rest is excreted in the feces. The problem begins when Vitamin D is added to the calcium mixture. This vitamin encourages the reptiles system to absorb excessive calcium, which eventually leads to hypercalcemia, a serious condition. The calcium to phosphorus ratio is also very important when looking at calcium levels in the food offered to reptiles, and when reading blood chemistry results. If you have a herp that requires calcium supplementation, make sure it is only calcium that you are using. (At our hospital we use calcium carbonate, which is inexpensive and comes in a fine powder.) For anything else, consult with your veterinarian first to ensure you are feeding your particular pet correctly. When you read labels, you will find that many of the products sold as calcium supplements have Vitamin D3 added. This is not necessarily a bonus!





In reptiles it is called acute hypercalcemia from acute vitamin D3 overdose this can result in calcification of the kidneys.

Also here is more info: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.anapsid.org/uvd3.html">http://www.anapsid.org/uvd3.html</a><!-- m -->


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## VARNYARD (Jan 15, 2009)

Here is yet more proof that D3 cannot be substituded for UV lighting. Watch the video below:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rxhuuIcnTA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rxhuuIcnTA</a><!-- m -->


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## red_tegu28 (Jan 15, 2009)

Thats sad, You would think that the owner would have know something was not right with it along time ago


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## akward_silence91 (Jan 15, 2009)

great video. thanks for that info. that really needs to be posted everywhere for people to know.


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## ObsessionDragons (Jan 16, 2009)

Heartbreaking.


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## Kazzy (Jan 16, 2009)

I've dealt with 2 reptiles with MBD due to no UV lighting, but they were given calcium with D3 supplementation. 

First was a baby nile monitor. He would have what looked like seizures, and could not use his back legs. I had to up his temps a bit, have a lot of UV for him, he was soaked daily (he also suffered from impaction). He had to be hand fed, and I had to mix calcium with water and give that to him through an oral syringe. Luckily, he survived. I had no idea how though. Eventually, the seizures stopped, his back legs started working, and he began to eat on his own. Hopefully he is still alive today. 

Second was my tegu, Aidan. He came to me pretty badly kinked in the tail, a small kink in the back, his jaw was a little limp, and he was very thin. Today, he is still with me, most of the kinks are gone from his tail, his back is no longer kinked, his jaw is slightly deformed from it (but no longer limp), and he's fat and healthy.

So, in my personal experience, D3 can NOT substitute good UV lighting, and sunlight.


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## VARNYARD (Jan 17, 2009)

Kazzy, D3 supplementation is bad, as I said in the video. No one knows how much is enough or how much is too much, they also have not proof it does any good at all.


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## devine* (Jan 17, 2009)

Just watched the video bobby... very sad. I'm hoping she does not have to be put down and hopefully can make a bit of a turn around given a better living situation now. 

I really hope more people see the video, poor lil tegu 

I'm going to change all my UV tubes after seeing this, I don't want to risk my lil tegus safety. Thats another thing that should be known too

UV bulbs need replacing, depends on brand type etc. They also need to be positioned an accurate distance from the animal.


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## Tux (Jan 17, 2009)

With tubes I don't risk it, I either use a solarmeter to check or replace every 4-5 months, however I have switched to all megarays and use the solarmeter to check them.


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## ihatehumans (Jan 18, 2009)

This is very informative. I always knew suplements were suplements and couldn't substitute UV, but I didn't know added D3 was so bad. I have been giving my leopard gecko D3 In her suplements as long as I've had her (over a year) and she suffered no ill effects. I am not contradicting you Bobby, I just want to know whats best for my animals.


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## Monster Boas (Jan 18, 2009)

Bobby Thank you for this information. I own two Arg. B&W Tagus which recently I just seperated them. The male was braught to the reptile room and he did not see UV for a week and within that week he started showing signs of MBD, I immediatly took action placed a Mega-Ray SB 100 into the enclosure and placed him on Critical Care Professional line and 0.1 ml of Aluminum Hydroxide and he rebounded back quite fast. I would suggest everyone take Bobby's word of advice befroe its too late.

-Robert Hall


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## VARNYARD (Jan 23, 2009)

Understanding UVB lighting
UVB is very necessary in which vitamin D3 is produced in the skin of animals, and humans for that matter, and this is what also causes sunburns in humans. The vitamin D3 that is produced is responsible for regulating calcium metabolism. Vitamin D3 is obtained through UVB exposure, this is by natural sunlight or lighting that emits UVB light. I have no doubt that reptile species are unable to utilize dietary vitamin D3 through the stomach; they must have access to UVB. A lack of UVB and vitamin D3 can ultimately result in metabolic bone disease in reptiles, or what is known as rickets in humans.

How much UV does your lizard need?
The results from the studies have been done show; they can now make recommendations on exposure times, distances, Researchers have determined the UVB levels required by some lizard species in captivity. 

For the tropical lizards, like tegus, iguanas, chameleons UVB levels of 13 to 30 _W/cm2 (microwatts per square centimeter)
are recommended when lamps are used 10 to 12 hours per day. 

For the desert lizards, like bearded dragons, horned toads, uromastyx and chuckwallas can tolerate slightly higher levels from 13 to 150 _W/cm2 for 10-12 hours a day.

All diurnal lizards should have access to a minimum of 13 microwatts of UVB in order to synthesize vitamin D3, That is my opinion, if it is a daytime basking lizard, it needs proper UVB lighting. There are some species, like monitors that they claim need no UVB lighting, but I will ask this question, do they bask? In the wild, do monitors bask under UVB rays? The lack of UVB bulbs in monitor enclosures might explain why many types of monitors do so poor in captivity.


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## firebreather (Mar 13, 2009)

Seriously, some people really don't know. When I found out a friend bought a tegus and had him on no uv I almost died. He said it was acting strange. I bought him a Zilla desert 50 bulb like the ones I use (Though I have a bearded dragon. But they work for both), and it got better. I was so happy.


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## Tux (Mar 13, 2009)

You may want to read <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-summary.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyph ... ummary.htm</a><!-- m -->

even though they claim to have corrected the issues no tests have been done on the new lights so I would be cautious.


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## RehabRalphy (Mar 13, 2009)

Bobby made a good point. He explains tegus need between 13-30 uW/cm2.

The number 1 seller of florescent lighting seems to be Reptisun. I'm not quite sure what the 10.0 measures, but heres the stats on the 5.0's.

Reptisun 5.0 at 12" away produced 10 uW/cm2 which isnt sufficient.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Researchmain.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.c ... hmain.html</a><!-- m -->

When I first got into reptiles, thats the bulb everyone told me to go out and buy. Now I'm happy using my Powersun and Megaray's


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## laurarfl (Mar 13, 2009)

Tux, where did you purchase your solarmeter?


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## Tux (Mar 13, 2009)

I got mine from Reptileuv, I had found another place but lost the link and was making an order anyway. It worked out to be cheaper than buying directly from solartech due to their shipping charges to Canada, mind you this was about 2 years ago.


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## alewis0890 (Mar 14, 2009)

Also, 

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.solarmeter.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.solarmeter.com</a><!-- m -->



EDIT:

Sorry Tux.. Didn't see you said solartec already...


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## laurarfl (Mar 14, 2009)

Ack, which one from solarmeter.com? I saw like a dozen models. I want a good one, but as cheap as possible


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## Tux (Mar 14, 2009)

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.solarmeter.com/model62.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.solarmeter.com/model62.html</a><!-- m -->

That's the 1 you want.


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## laurarfl (Mar 16, 2009)

Thanks.

I've never used one and have just been careful about the bulbs I buy and when I replace them. Is this really a worthwhile investment?

Laura


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## firebreather (Mar 17, 2009)

Tux said:


> You may want to read <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-summary.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyph ... ummary.htm</a><!-- m -->
> 
> even though they claim to have corrected the issues no tests have been done on the new lights so I would be cautious.



Thanks for the concern  

Yes, I had gone to that page, and did some research. i decided to try them anyway since they said they were revamped. I decided to contact Zilla one way or another to get DIRECT confirmation :lol: 

So, feeling somewhat trusting I decided to use it, and that was last year. I haven't seen any problems with my tegus darling. So... I don't know lol. Thats just me. I'm going to keep using them. If anything, you'll know


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## tupinambisfamiliaris (Mar 18, 2009)

Anyone have any more pics of MBD cases in tegus? Would like to see a side view and more examples of primary symptoms.


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## Tux (Mar 18, 2009)

firebreather said:


> Thanks for the concern
> 
> Yes, I had gone to that page, and did some research. i decided to try them anyway since they said they were revamped. I decided to contact Zilla one way or another to get DIRECT confirmation :lol:
> 
> So, feeling somewhat trusting I decided to use it, and that was last year. I haven't seen any problems with my tegus darling. So... I don't know lol. Thats just me. I'm going to keep using them. If anything, you'll know



What did they say? Also I's still like to see tests that actually confirm the change as the word coming from the manufacturer would be suspect, I'm not the trusting type, not in this industry.

tupinambisfamiliaris the signs are the same with any animal, swollen limbs from connective tissue weak bones and joints often causing the animal to not be able to stand or walk properly or the joints to become disjointed, malformed jaws causing issues eating, paralysis, trembling, twisted limbs, stunted growth and even constipation.


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## laurarfl (Mar 18, 2009)

I was not impressed with company after dealing with a beardie with photokeratoconjunctivitis. A friend bought a pair of baby beardies from me and a pet store sold her the slim line desert uv. One of the dragons was half dead, skin burnt, eyes swollen. She brought it to me to rehab while she was on vacation. That's when I first found the uv uk website...getting some info on possible conditions. I turned off the light, the dragons were fine within days.

When I contacted the owner of Zilla, he was very unconcerned, offered no retribution for vet costs, just told me to take the bulb back to the pet store since it had been recalled. Nice.....


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## firebreather (Apr 1, 2009)

Tux said:


> You may want to read <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-summary.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyph ... ummary.htm</a><!-- m -->
> 
> even though they claim to have corrected the issues no tests have been done on the new lights so I would be cautious.




Thanks yea I came across that link not too long ago actually. It is pretty useful. But it is some what old. I had them a little while before reading it. No problems to date. So for now I guess they're alright. If I see anything odd you'll hear from me. They should do a new study. You know whats going on with that? I'm curious.


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## J.LRegius (May 28, 2009)

Once my tegu jumped out of my hands and when I picked him up he started twitching (hind legs, fingers, front legs) and after a few hours he was fine again.


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## taterbug (Dec 12, 2009)

My Tegu started twitching today and I just moved him into a new enclosure today and I think he got a little hot at least I hope that is what it was I moved him back to his old one for the time being until I can get a handel on the temp I have a 100 watt basking bulb on a dimmer switch and a Reptiglo 10.0 UVB lamp in the enclosure also and he has a cool end I just think it got hot all over I have not yet installed my thermometer but I will before he goes back to new enclosure.. THANKS FOR THE INFO


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## randyjmiller (Mar 6, 2010)

Hello everyone,

I worry when ever I think about this. I have UVA bulb and UVB tubes for my little friend but I wonder if its body is able to get full benefit from the UVB source cause it spends soo much time under the substrate and in its hide. I could be wrong cause I do work during the A.M. But it seems like its in there for like 22 of 24 hours a day if not going for a whole day at a time without coming out.


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## randyjmiller (Mar 6, 2010)

By the way I've not seen any signs of health issues regarding the light or otherwise, I just don't know if it would harm itself like that.


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## txrepgirl (Mar 7, 2010)

What are the temps in the enclosure ? Next time when you are off see if he come out ( since you don't know if he does when you are at work ).


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## randyjmiller (Mar 7, 2010)

My temps stay around 85 and the basking area around 95. It came out of its hide about an hour ago and is still out.


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## randyjmiller (Mar 7, 2010)

And another question I've been wondering what els besides rodents can I feed tegu that will provide calcium. I have the dust because of my other reptiles. But I didn't know, if I could get away without feeding it rodents or dusting.


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## CaterpillarGiraffe (Mar 8, 2010)

My basking spot is higher, around 110-115F. Ambient temp - 82-85F.

If you can, invest in a mercury vapor bulb. I find they greatly improved my Tegus that I took on who came with me with MBD. My red seems to have improved a lot. (Althought once damage is done, cannot be totally reversed).

I use the MegaRay bulb (160w). I have a large enclosure.
I also use Powersun for my monitor, it's also great.

10.0 tubes I use for my bearded dragons. I found they weren't as great for my Tegus. 

When summer arrives, take him outside. He'll improve a great deal.


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## randyjmiller (Mar 9, 2010)

I've not got it in the cage yet cause its still a tiny thing. but ive got an 8.0 and two 100w uva but I usually only run one so i can easily kick it a little higher. The little critter isnt sick. hes fine, and has a crazy appetite. It just took me by suprise a little. Of course I knew he was gonna hide but i didn't think he would hide this much, I was just wondering if it wouldnt deprive itself of precious uvb. 

I also use a 10.0 for my bearded friend.

Btw, crazy this. I watched yur youtube videos couple months back cool vids. small world kinda thing.


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## Guest (Aug 1, 2010)

Hello,

As a new member here, I wanted to share my experiences with my 2 year old columbian black&gold tegu my gf and I care for.

He's in _extremely_ good shape. 

I use a 160 watt ZooMed (tm) UVB bulb for *BOTH* regulating his temp., as well as a daily UVB source. 

His diet consists of 90% raw eggs (lapped up) 5% raw turkey and 5% snails. 

I *ONLY* keep him in a small enclosure (24"x30") during the night where he burrows inside of pillows and a mound of blankets - absolutely no sand, rocks, grass, gravel or wood chips/shavings. 

He sleeps 8 hours a day while we're at work and he comes out for 3-4 hours in the evening - where he can bask under the UVB and raise his body temp. 

Once he's warm enough, we take him into the shower and let him relax. After 5 minutes or so of relaxation, he does his duty, gets dried off and he has full reign of my bedroom. He goes under the bed routinely to rest, then comes to the UVB to warm up again. I feed him either an egg, the shell, a snail or ground turkey - sometimes all the above depending on HIS tastes. 

Now, there isn't anything scientific about our approach, just a little common sense. In the 2.5 yrs we've had this captive-bred tegu, we've learned his habits and we've learned how to manage him and them, accordingly. 

Now then...The reason I'm posting this is just to let concerned people know that you *CAN* raise a perfectly healthy tegu _without _supplements as long as you consistently AND constantly  shower your tegu with UVB lighting. 

Now to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying NOT TO use supplements because I do believe that vitamins and minerals that can not be found in a tegus diet need to be supplemented. However, on the diet I provide my tegu (at least at this age) he doesn't require supplements or extra calcium added to his diet. Obviously YOUR tegu is different, but there's a possibility that you may have as much success as I have if you follow these steps. 

It's apparent many people don't research these reptiles and/or are fed wrong information. I understand many people do things differently with their reptiles so hopefully what I  do will only serve to help those looking for a new/different/refreshing approach to raising their tegu. 

Lastly I encourage _any_ tegu owner to look at your reptiles enclosure as a "temporary" habitat your tegu sleeps in. You can potty train your tegu to go to the bathroom 1x a day if you get him used to going in the shower/tub - just let the warm running water flow all over his body until he's relaxed enough to go. Then let him run around your room and set up a portable UVB/heat bulb he can go to for warmth and UVB. Let him do the management of his own temp/uvb and you won't have to worry about the enclosure AT ALL.

Lastly, our lizards aren't dumb. They *KNOW* what they need to regulate when it comes to UVB and warmth - possibly even calcium requirements - sometimes our tegu will go on an egg-shell binge and eat *JUST* the egg shells. 

Anyways, just wanted to give my 02 cents on our tegu and how we have raised him so far. Hope it helps someone.


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## ripchacha (Mar 6, 2011)

march 6th 2011 i had my colombian black and white tegu for three years she just died to day from starvation from mouth rot i did alot of reaserch on tegus b4 i made my purchase and never read anything on it before but my vet told me its very common in them i just would like to address this problem the signs my baby girl had was she wudnt even look at food lost alot of weight in this prosses we wud jamm food down her throat we were injecting her with antibiotics and giving her a bunch of things we tried so hard but she couldnt pull through if u have had somthing like this happen plz let me kno but my girl had it for atleast a year and was trying to eat up till 2 months GO SHE STOPPED EATING and i was jamming liver and ground turkey down her throat R.I.P CHA CHA


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## Guest (Mar 7, 2011)

I`m sorry about your tegu .. 

It sounds like you put in a lot of effort into trying to keep her alive ... 

I haven`t heard of any great problem with mouth rot on this forum [ only one post that I know of ] 

What is done is done ... 

Give some thought to getting a new friend ...


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## ripchacha (Mar 7, 2011)

yeAH IK MY MOM WANTS ME TO GET SOMTHING SH CAN HANDLE cuz i got the army next year so i cant get any type of monitor or tegu it suck i have this huge cage i made for her and i cant use it now :/


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## kurvaface123 (Mar 7, 2011)

my first reptile ever ( a crested gecko) started twitching and i took her to a vet and they said it was the beggining of calcium defficentsey.


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