# Whole food diet



## james.w (Jun 15, 2011)

What are the negatives of feeding a primarily whole prey diet. Rats, mice, and chicks are the prey in question.


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## herpgirl2510 (Jun 15, 2011)

I would like to hear the answer on this one. So far I know the risk of impaction from the fur and the pinkies and pups are high in fat.


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## Strange_Evil (Jun 15, 2011)

Impaction, maybe obesity? Wonder what others have to say. 

And i read that Tegu's need fruit in there diet to promote healthy sheds or Beef and cod oil. How would you introduce one of the two into the diet feeding all whole prey? I'm no tegu expert just had a few questions myself on this.


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## montana (Jun 15, 2011)

Impaction is the one and real reason your tegu will die 

Expense Is another reason ,Convenience worse comes to worse you can feed them some tuna or cat food ..

Tegu may decide that all he wants to eat is live or thawed frozen and will starve its self when not offered it ..

I am sure there are other reasons ..The reason I chose a tegu was that I didn`t have to be held up by the bug and mouse cartels ...


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## herpgirl2510 (Jun 15, 2011)

Bobby does write in a post how tegus do not need fruit and it is a wasted meal. I think he meant primarily not soley.


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## james.w (Jun 15, 2011)

I would add some fish and fruits to his diet as well. 

Is there any record of a tegu dying from a whole prey diet Montana? I have heard more people have problems with impaction from eating cypress, yet majority continue to keep their tegus on it. I have never heard of a tegu becoming impacted based on "fur/feathers". 

Montana can I ask what you feed your tegu on a weekly basis.


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## montana (Jun 15, 2011)

Not long ago there was a thread and the culprit was the mice ...

Seems that this member was feeding the mice that [his ] snakes wouldn`t eat .The tegu ate little else .... 

By no means listen to me .. Feed your tegu what ever you want ...


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## james.w (Jun 15, 2011)

I'm just trying to learn all I can. If you don't mind, what do you feed?


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## montana (Jun 15, 2011)

montana said:


> Not long ago there was a thread and the culprit was the mice ...
> 
> Seems that this member was feeding the mice that [his ] snakes wouldn`t eat .The tegu ate little else ....
> 
> By no means listen to me .. Feed your tegu what ever you want ...



I feed my tegu ground venison with cod liver oil salmon or trout [whole if I can net some small enough ] deer or goat liver ... frozen mouse or dead chick[I incubate myself ] two or three times a week ..I also provide lettuce or spinach from the garden strawberries raspberries ,blue berries . frozen or fresh .any of a bunch of vegetables frozen or fresh from the garden [he won`t eat his vegetables tho [but the lettuce looks cool floating in his water dish .... Something like that ..


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## james.w (Jun 15, 2011)

Is a majority of that suff harvested/caught by yourself?


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## montana (Jun 15, 2011)

james.w said:


> Is a majority of that suff harvested/caught by yourself?



The mice I bought frozen [Jan did come in the other day with a hand full of hopper mice she found in the garden ] 

Every thing else we get or make our selves ...


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## Toby_H (Jun 15, 2011)

I feed mine a lot of whole prey (about 65~70%) but do mix in other things...

For whole prey I use : (frozen/thawed) large hairless mice, day old chicks, 3 day old chicks and small rats... live fish (SA/CA Cichlids I breed myself)... and ocassionally live/pre-killed 3 day old chicks...

For "processed" foods I use : Ground Turkey, Chicken/Turkey Gizzards, fish fillets (whatever's on sale), beef liver and anything else I see around $3 per lb...

and I make myself scrambled eggs with sausage and veggies in it abotu once a week and usually make enough to give my Tegu some...

I rarely offer fruit or vegetables as he just doesn't seem interested. Though I do toss him some grapes or berries when I'm sitting around eating them and he stares at me...

I have Cold Liver Oil which I put on his meals occasionally. But he seems to eat less on the days I use it so I assume he doesn't care for it...

I have calcium powder that I use less often than I should...

This approach has worked well for me and my Tegu seems healthy to me. He is plump but by no means obese


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## herpgirl2510 (Jun 15, 2011)

Where do you get hairless mice I do not have access to those around here.

with an adult is there less chance of impaction?


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## rrcoolj (Jun 15, 2011)

I kind of have the reverse of most people. My tegu dosen't get a whole lot of rodent/chicks mostly because the closest place besides petco that sells them is 1hour+ drive from my house. And petco rodents are extremely overpriced. But I feed a lot of other things including fruit and any cichlids that i can "spare". I usually feed, the ground turkey mixture, liver, gizzards, hearts, lamb, egg, strawberries, bananas, squash, blueberries, raseberries, salmon fillet, tuna, and superworms off the top of my head. I get rodents when I can but I could probably count the number of rodents she's eaten on my hands. Rats are better than mice because of increased bone mass apparently which equals more calcium. As for impaction... I am not saying it couldn't happen... just feed appropriate sized rodents or if you are that worried feed two small rodents instead of one big one.


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## Toby_H (Jun 15, 2011)

I just realized I listed my food items, but neglected to comment at all on the original question 

I've heard three arguments against feeding whole prey only...

1) High fat content. Though I hear this argument frequently, the nutrient charts I've seen do not support this claim.

2) Impaction. This is a legit concern/possibility, I believe it is quite unlikely in most cases. I do believe as smaller Tegus have smaller digestive tracts, they are more prone to impaction from fur (or feathers).

3) Lack of diversity. While this is legit if you were to feed only mice, or only rats... but it is not legit if you were to rotate or mix rats, mice, chicks, fish, etc...





rrcoolj said:


> just feed appropriate sized rodents or if you are that worried feed two small rodents instead of one big one.



Regarding impaction, I would suggest the opposite. there would be less fur on a single 300 gram rat than on three 100 gram rats... Though in my experience if you feed a Tegu "too large" of a prey item, they just rip it into bite sized pieces.


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## james.w (Jun 15, 2011)

My only concern would be impaction I guess. I will continue feeding as I have been, majority is whole prey (mice/rats, chicks) along with tilapia, ground turkey, and chicken gizzards, hearts, liver. I throw some fruit in every once in a while, but he doesn't take much interest.


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## herpgirl2510 (Jun 16, 2011)

I was told it is best to feed a plate of several mice than a larger sized rat because of the risk of impaction. I will give tonka 5 adult mice. I find that his poop is firm when he has mice but gets losser as the wee goes on when he does no have them. Does nyone else have this issue also what do people give to firm it up?


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## Toby_H (Jun 16, 2011)

I do not agree that several smaller mice are less of a risk of impaction than one larger rat. Though I do believe several smaller mice would be easier for your Tegu to digest than a single larger rat. 

My point previously was simply that if you shaved all the hair off of three 100 gram rats, it would be more hair than if you shaved all the hair off of a single 300 gram rat. Though I doubt either would be a problem for an adult tegu to digest.


Whole mamals do digest into firmer stool... Chicks digest into looser greesier stool and fish are even worse... Adding starch to a diet firms stool, though I do not think it would be a good idea to do so. It is what it is.


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## rrcoolj (Jun 16, 2011)

^ Please explain, because I am not getting it...

Impaction is when the digestive system is blocked by a solid or semi-solid mass right. So if an animal has several smaller items then the chance of it blocking anything is less than one large item regardless of the amount of hair which can play a part but would that really matter that much? I mean the larger rat having more mass would be more to digest which intern would create a larger waste product which could block something or has a higher chance of doing so. Not necessarily disagreeing with you just trying to understand your logic.


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## montana (Jun 16, 2011)

herpgirl2510 said:


> Where do you get hairless mice I do not have access to those around here.
> 
> with an adult is there less chance of impaction?





There is no such thing as hairless mice silly !!

Toby has been applying Dry-loc in enclosed areas again ...


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## Toby_H (Jun 16, 2011)

^lol Montana




rrcoolj said:


> ^ Please explain, because I am not getting it...
> 
> Impaction is when the digestive system is blocked by a solid or semi-solid mass right. So if an animal has several smaller items then the chance of it blocking anything is less than one large item regardless of the amount of hair which can play a part but would that really matter that much? I mean the larger rat having more mass would be more to digest which intern would create a larger waste product which could block something or has a higher chance of doing so. Not necessarily disagreeing with you just trying to understand your logic.



I'm not claiming to be an expert on this subject, so I'm just discussing logically what I understand...


I have been lead to believe fur and feathers are very difficult to digest and is often not fully digested... Impaction can occur when large amounts of undigested fur/feathers creates hard entangled clumps sealed together with stool. 

Regarding solid mass that does not digest (such as ingested mulch), I completely agree with your above description that larger pieces of matter will be much more likely to cause impaction.


I'll also mention I've never noticed much fur or feathers in any of my animals stool so i do not know how "difficult to digest" they are, but I very consistently read that it is. 


I would not regularly feed my snake plates of 6~10 mice (with hair) the way I sometimes do hairless mice... but I do not hesitate to feed my Tegu any rats (with hair) that my snakes do not eat.


I also believe several other factors are involved that are less often discussed. Moisture levels for example. I believe a poorly hydrated Tegu is far more likely to get impacted than one that is properly flushed with fluids. Thus keeping humidity levels up, mulch moisted and a dish of clean water available will lessen risks of impaction.

I also believe a low temperatures are more likely to allow impaction. A Tegus digestive 'strength' is directly related to it's metabolism levels, and it's metabolism levels are directly related to it's body temperature which is controled by the temperature of it's environment.


On a related tangent... I discussed using hairless prey for snakes with a few breeders I know... Two of them suggested the fur or feathers of the prey item "sweeps" the walls of the intestines and feedign hairless prey consistently can allow build up in intestines. I have no clue how accurate this theory is, but it sounded like a rational possibility...


James - If we've taken this tangent too far fromt he original topic let me know and we can start a new thread to discuss thoughts on impaction (as the topic here is supposed to be pros/cons of a Whole Prey diet).


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## rrcoolj (Jun 16, 2011)

Yea sorry James for stealing your thread but i was curious. Thanks for the explanation Toby_H. I agree in keeping proper parameters is key to preventing digestion problems with any type of reptiles(heat/humidty). Also make sure you have a good source of UVB. Honestly I believe impaction is the least of your problems James. My tegu has eaten bits of cypress mulch before and they just come out the other side. As long as you keep your parameters in check it should not be an issue.


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## james.w (Jun 16, 2011)

I have no problem with where you guys have taken this topic. 

I was more worried about impaction when I was keeping my gu on cypress as I would see him eating it here and there.


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## herpgirl2510 (Jun 16, 2011)

I usually go to NERD in N.The guy who runs the reptile dept said to give more smaller mice as opposed to a larger rat. He has hiad pair for 11 year and this is how he has fed them.


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## rrcoolj (Jun 16, 2011)

james.w said:


> I have no problem with where you guys have taken this topic.
> 
> I was more worried about impaction when I was keeping my gu on cypress as I would see him eating it here and there.



My tegu does that on occasion too. It's not a huge deal it usually just passes through her. Sometimes I will see her mouth cypress mulch then spit it out. This is usually in the morning before I feed her. Again I wouldn't worry too much about it. Feeding outside the enclosure helps.


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## james.w (Jun 16, 2011)

I keep him on a sand/soil mix with a little bit of cypress throughout. I feed inside the enclosure with all of my herps.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Jun 16, 2011)

_I switched to a Primarily Whole Prey Diet back in '07 as Dino got bigger along with his appetite. It hasn't been any other way since even with babies,.. I give them what ever they can handle whole, if not I cut it up. Last week I gave Korben his first whole rat pup for a bit of exercise and to make him work for his food before cutting it up. D I should post a video of the rib cage popping out and him eating it)

I feed 85-90 % whole with the rest being mixed meats and fruit,.. but even then the remaining percentage is more fruit than meat. Whole prey is a complete meal in itself so you really don't need to add anything to it other than fruit here and there.

It saves time, money (in some cases) and I don't have to supplement as much with vitamins or calcium. 

As for Obesity,.. that's an owner issue not a tegu issue, since we control what, how much and how often they eat or exercise. It's good for them to have a thick tail base but not a fat tummy. When you start to see creases and rolls on their hips (around their legs) back and neck,.. then its time to reevaluate their feeding and exercise regime. 

Some times people get caught up in bragging about the size and weight of their pets without considering how much is muscle (healthy) or fat (obesity). _


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## herpgirl2510 (Jun 16, 2011)

That is good to know. I would much rather feed whole prey. The more turkey and fruit the looser larger annd more he poops.


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## Teguwhisperer (Jun 16, 2011)

you could always try making a nicely seasoned mouse fillet just cut off the skin its more work but it may save them from impaction from the fur.


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## herpgirl2510 (Jun 16, 2011)

Oh gross nope can't do that.


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## james.w (Jun 16, 2011)

herpgirl2510 said:


> Oh gross nope can't do that.



It's not gross to me, but you aren't gonna catch me skinning 6-7 mice at a time or plucking the feathers from 3-4 chicks. My tegu will just have to figure out how to get the fur/feathers out of him.


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## Little Wise Owl (Jun 21, 2011)

My concern would be the lack of variety. _Tupinambis merianae_ seem to eat almost anything they deem as food in the wild. Younger tegu's primarily eat invertebrate (I believe this takes up 90%) of their diet as well as a lot of rotting carcasses and a few fallen fruit. Adults feed more on fruit than juveniles do as well as whatever they can find. 

Unless you're feeding a large abundance of really furry mice, I don't think impaction is a concern. Lack of variety is though.


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## sphenodon (Dec 4, 2014)

montana said:


> There is no such thing as hairless mice silly !!
> 
> Toby has been applying Dry-loc in enclosed areas again ...


I know this is old but: http://www.fancymice.info/hairless.htm

When I was raising feeder mice (2007 or so), I got some that had hairless genes or something. I got mice who became hairless and others that were partially bald, lol! Funniest mice ever! It wasn't really cost efficient for me to keep doing it at that time (plus I was a poor grad student), so I stopped. Wish I still had them though!


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## N8bub (Dec 4, 2014)

Great thread, it's good to trot out the zombies when there is interesting and relevant info!


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