# What IS THIS Tegu? Help :)



## Random8A (Jul 14, 2013)

Hey there,

I'm curious and can't seem to make my mind up.

The curren owner of this tegu thinks its a Black and White.

I say Extreme? OR Blue?

It was one nasty personality on it.

Help anyone? =)

Thanks!!


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## neotropicalherps (Jul 14, 2013)

This is Salvator merianae, the current scientific name for all of the common names you listed. "Blue" is called such because males tend to be bluish and "Extreme" are exceptional in size. Thus Salvator merianae may or may not be a complex of cryptic species.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Jul 14, 2013)

_Extreme type black and white._


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## neotropicalherps (Jul 15, 2013)

Ok, so how do you know this? Obviously the lizard is b&w (as are most merianae), but what makes it "extreme" other than its size, which is not readily apparent from the photos. In other words what morphology other than size makes it an extreme?


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## Logie_Bear (Jul 15, 2013)

It also looks like an extreme to me. Or just a really stunning b/w. The high contrast white and the very white head are chacoan traits. Blues usually have a burnt looking black nose.


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## Random8A (Jul 15, 2013)

Hmm.. Interesting. Once I get an up close look at this animal I'll be able to tell if he has the "Blue" tear drop. But the colors and pattern on the back says not JUST a black and white to me. We'll see though.


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## Tannaros (Jul 15, 2013)

neotropicalherps said:


> Ok, so how do you know this? Obviously the lizard is b&w (as are most merianae), but what makes it "extreme" other than its size, which is not readily apparent from the photos. In other words what morphology other than size makes it an extreme?


 

"Extreme" giants, are not necessarily "giants" at all. Of those I've personally encountered only a few (3 or so) have been abnormally large - the rest are just the same as any other black and white. Just the same I've seen a few very large black and whites. It would seem to me that while extremes on a whole tend to get very slightly bigger - there isn't really much of a difference. However, they are known for the increased white coloration. Whether that has to do with the "size" (linkage), locality, simply a line bred trait, or other I do not know.

I would agree in saying it's likely a uniquely patterned extreme - if only because the white:black ratio and cream color.

From what I can see the tegu doesn't have the normal nose spot or tear drops to indicate blue.


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## Random8A (Jul 15, 2013)

Thank you Tannaros. I am going to try to get better pictures, after zooming into the face I do see a dark area below the eye where the tear drop could be. BUT it could also be a shadow. Who knows!


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## Tannaros (Jul 15, 2013)

Random8A said:


> Thank you Tannaros. I am going to try to get better pictures, after zooming into the face I do see a dark area below the eye where the tear drop could be. BUT it could also be a shadow. Who knows!


 

Yeah, that actually had me wondering for a minute too. Good focus shots of the head would lead to much more conclusive identification. Well at least in my opinion.


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## Random8A (Jul 15, 2013)

I feel since I don't know the breeder and genetics that my best bets are a mere guess LOL. But it's still nice to think about it. The guy I'm buying it from can't send anymore pictures..which is fine. Either way he is uniuqe. All I know is the coloration is not a typical B&W so either way it's something different to add to my tegu family. =)


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## TegusRawsome80 (Jul 15, 2013)

It's not a blue. Not even close. It's what those who make up the marketing tactics for tegu breeders call a "chacoan". In other words, a variant of black and white. It's pretty nice lookin either way.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Jul 15, 2013)

neotropicalherps said:


> Ok, so how do you know this? Obviously the lizard is b&w (as are most merianae), but what makes it "extreme" other than its size, which is not readily apparent from the photos. In other words what morphology other than size makes it an extreme?


 

_Selective breeding. Chaco or extreme same difference right? Same species (until or unless proven other wise) but they look some what different. Meaning you could post a pic of one of Bobby's extremes along with a chaco from underground and tegu terra, and see differences as well as similarities because of selective breeding. Even though both have stock that came from Bobby._

_The one in the pick posted is more along the lines of Bobby's stock Idk if it's actually one of his or not but wouldn't doubt it. From the shape of it's head, the diamonds on it's back, with the high white color not just it's head and neck but legs and abdomen as well. With the normal b&w their leg pattern is typically black base color with white dots here and there. But with extremes and some blues also, there's more white speckling and blushing on the limbs and abdomen. In some cases they have polka dots on top of polka dots with white blushing over or in between them sometimes giving them a grey or hazy look over the black._

_Some may disagree but it's just what I notice. How that varies is just quality, as far as I'm concerned when it comes to chaco verses extreme... Bobby set the standard for that. _


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## Random8A (Jul 15, 2013)

Very interesting. So now we are condsidering this animal a traditional B&W? I feel the need to disagree with this statement. I mainly posted these pictures because your guess is as good as mine and until I'm able to get correctly lit non blurry pictures it will remain a mystery. Thanks to all.


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## Roadkill (Jul 15, 2013)

Thing is, you're wanting to define it as a "blue" or an "extreme", and both of these are not defined or characterized, they are whimsical names applied to some tegus that people THINK have been characterized and "bred out". Both are highly subjective and arbitrary in their make-up, no one and I do mean NO ONE can step up and spell out in clear, concise, unsubjective terms what a "blue" or an "extreme" are AT ALL. They'll make nuances and subjective descriptions, but they can't say what features make one or deny one from being either. Heck, the "extreme" is a total marketing ploy of Bobby Hill, a man once considered a respectable breeder but has since been proven to be a total liar, scam artist, and highly prone to conjecture - and yet everyone still follows his story on "extreme chacoans". Heck, lets admit no one can even tell what a "traditional B&W" is but sure feel comfortable in judging one as being "mutt" tegus.


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## Logie_Bear (Jul 15, 2013)

For a reference, here is my Extreme from Varnyard 2012. Your gu looks like its bigger than she is, but with the coloration/ patterning you can see a resemblance:


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Jul 15, 2013)

_Selective breeding is doing just that breeding in or out certain traits or characteristics which has been and is still being done. So how is it that those traits can't be defined or characterized? You don't have to agree with or even like Bobby or how he ended things but that doesn't change the work he did with Extremes. There is a visual difference and characteristics between his Extremes, typical b&w's and Chacos. No one's saying that they're the only ones that carry those specific traits as if they can't be seen in other black and whites. Just that they were selectively bred to look different and they do. Call it a morph or what ever they still have their differences._


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## Roadkill (Jul 15, 2013)

Bubblz, I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not saying people can't identify traits or can't selectively breed. However, when it comes to telling someone what a "blue" is, or what an "extreme" is, no one can as far as I've seen spell out clearly what one is. For example, blues may or may not have the dark nose, may or may not have the tear drop, may or may not have the prominent lateral line, may or may not have the bluish tinge, and have a "high" degree of white on the adult head. <- That is NOT defined or characterized, that is ambiguous and subjective. Saying it has "a look" isn't terrifically helpful. On the other site someone posted a picture, and a breeder of "blues" gave the "well, it's got the dark nose, the tear drop, the contrast, but there's not enough white on the head so it's not a blue". What's enough white? 70%? 80%? 90%? How are they measuring it? And if one of their blues produced a tegu that grew up to have only 50% white on the head, would they refund the extra price of the "blue" price tag? Heck, you've pointed out there's a difference between Extremes and Chacoans. Some people insist they are the same thing. What are they? Are they the same? Are they different? If they're different, then spell it out CLEARLY and with DEFINITION. Don't know about you, but I don't think it's exactly acceptable that those making the sale can tell you "your tegu isn't a X", but they can't tell you what a X is either, that's pretty hypocritical. Beings as it is so subjective, then what's wrong with someone having a "borderline" and calling it that specific morph? If one can't define it clearly, then it's fair game to call it what you want.


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## neotropicalherps (Jul 16, 2013)

Very interesting discussion that goes to the heart of human nature - people change or alter nature at all levels. Breeding tegus or gold fish is a relatively minor change compared to grinding up whole ecosystems. I was reading an article (Molecular phylogenetics and conservation of Tupinambis (Sauria: Teiidae) Copeia 1999 4:894-905) and it includes genetic data from merianae suggesting that it forms two clades (they only had 5 specimens), and there is morphology that suggests the same. It seems likely that one or more "morphs" of merianae will likely coincide with existing cryptic species. This is a distraction for me because I am currently trying to sort out teguixin. However, I have looked at photos of "extremes" and the one thing that seems some what consistent is a divided frontal scale. The best way to sort these out is with DNA, shed skins, blood samples, dead specimens, but this only works well if you known where the specimen originated from. Because CITES makes it difficult to import or transport these legally it is difficult to get captives specimens with good locality data. But it would be interesting to get tissue and photos from a variety of captive specimens and sequence a few gene and see how they shake out.


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## Random8A (Jul 16, 2013)

It was be very interesting to say the least. This is something I've put so much thought into but become so overwhelmed when I realize the true detail and confusion/lack of information or should I say the need for extreme genetic information. 

This is also something I feel even if it's proved out by one sure fire plan that when introduced to the rest of the world the scams and rumors will slowly but surely turn the truth back into lies.

I've never been into an specific animal species or sub species that has so much confusion and lies mixed into the truth.

I honestly have no clue what to believe. Which makes me what to just say I have a traditional B&W and leave it at that. But the need to learn and question things often takes the better of me.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Jul 16, 2013)

_I getcha and I think I know what thread you're talking about. Some just fail to realize that's just genetics it can go either way, just when you think you know something or have it mapped out genetics will throw a wrench in that. That just reminds me of albino tegus and how some people say they have no issues, may be that one doesn't at all or just has a few. But eye sight related or any others doesn't mean it can't happen as it gets older or even with it's offspring. When it comes to morphs and breeding for specific traits some just stand out and display basic characteristics for a certain type or look more than others. Of course that just complicates things even more and people start adding grade or quality types compared to what say,... a typical Blue should look like. It's that gray area that complicates things and as people continue to breed hybrids and stray away from the norm it will only get more complicated. _


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## neotropicalherps (Jul 16, 2013)

Morphology works well for somethings but it appears that evolution has produced cryptic species in many situations and as a result the only way to sort them out is to sequence some genes and compare them. Sometimes superficial morphology - stuff like color patterns and even behavior is epigenetic so animals that are exposed to changing temperatures during embryonic development, or embryos that get slightly dehydrated or overly hydrated may develop into adults with unusual traits. So extra large sized individuals may result, or they may have stripes instead of bands, or it may impact their mate choices. But, these are still the same species until they evolve enough differences to be different enough from their parent species. There is at least one study that shows pythons well fed during their first year of life will grow to be much larger than individuals that do not receive extra calories during that first year, even though they are well fed in subsequent years. So, extreme tegus, did they evolve in nature or were they bred to be extra large?


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## Random8A (Jul 17, 2013)

My decision here is to go ahead and buy this uniuqe problem child and I denied the "Extreme" I won't give up trying to learn more about these animals. But I feel its a lost cause right now. Until someone with more money and more time then I proves it out and writes a book.

Thanks folks.


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## neotropicalherps (Jul 17, 2013)

I am sure it will make a great pet, just feed it well and keep it warm!


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