# am i wrong???ok



## reptastic (Mar 2, 2012)

Ok I'm under the impression that during brumation a reptiles slows down on activity ie. Basking, eating ect., I have a few people in a reptile group who thinks that brumation is when a reptile is asleep for the winter and that no reptile can hibernate, also that no reptile should be offered food during brumation, not even tegus, they say that by keeping a light on my tegus even though they are semi active is preventing them from brumating, am I wrong because i don[/align]'t agree?


----------



## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 2, 2012)

_Tell them to do some research on the differences between Hibernation, Brumation, plus those in between and get back to you on that. 

If reptiles don't hibernate or brumate how do they survive in areas with high and low temps here in the states and else were._


----------



## reptastic (Mar 2, 2012)

What they said is no reptile hibernates, what we see our tegus doing in the winter when they sleep straight through is brumation, they gave me a wiki link , this I were it got interesting this is a quote from that link

 "Brumation should not be confused with hibernation; when mammals hibernate, they are actually asleep; when reptiles brumate, they are less active, and their metabolism slows down so they just do not need to eat as often. Reptiles can often go through the whole winter without eating"

I stated to them tha these are the things that tegus do and they actually sleep without moving, I also mentioned temps, conditions ect in their natural habitat, they are actually asleep, but they still want to argue that its just brumation and that a lot of reptiles do this in variou areas I just left it alone


----------



## Hybrid (Mar 2, 2012)

reptastic said:


> What they said is no reptile hibernates, what we see our tegus doing in the winter when they sleep straight through is brumation, they gave me a wiki link , this I were it got interesting this is a quote from that link
> 
> "Brumation should not be confused with hibernation; when mammals hibernate, they are actually asleep; when reptiles brumate, they are less active, and their metabolism slows down so they just do not need to eat as often. Reptiles can often go through the whole winter without eating"
> 
> I stated to them tha these are the things that tegus do and they actually sleep without moving, I also mentioned temps, conditions ect in their natural habitat, they are actually asleep, but they still want to argue that its just brumation and that a lot of reptiles do this in variou areas I just left it alone


I always thought reptiles can only brumate too before I came here. When I was told tegus hibernate, I was very confused.


----------



## Orion (Mar 2, 2012)

You are not wrong they are. You have proof from more than one source on this website. I offer my Tegus food everyday. My female Tiny has only had 2 bites of food for over 2 months she only comes out every other day. My other female eats a little once a week. Neither female has shed in months but are awake almost evey other day or so, My Male has only slept 1 day and eats almost every other day. These lizards are not growing as a matter of fact they are getting skinner. But I know from experience they will be back to their old insatiable appetites in the matter of a few weeks. Those folks on the other board my have very little experience or limited exposure to anything other than a bearded dragon.


----------



## james.w (Mar 2, 2012)

Orion said:


> You are not wrong they are. You have proof from more than one source on this website. I offer my Tegus food everyday. My female Tiny has only had 2 bites of food for over 2 months she only comes out every other day. My other female eats a little once a week. Neither female has shed in months but are awake almost evey other day or so, My Male has only slept 1 day and eats almost every other day. These lizards are not growing as a matter of fact they are getting skinner. But I know from experience they will be back to their old insatiable appetites in the matter of a few weeks. Those folks on the other board my have very little experience or limited exposure to anything other than a bearded dragon.



Are you saying your tegus are hibernating?


----------



## reptastic (Mar 2, 2012)

This is what one person said andi quote " a healthy brumating reptile does not loose weight when brumating, when your tegu goes underground and sleep he is brumating" wait what? When rayne went down, she was down about 3.5 mosand occaisionally came up, she lost weight, every tegu keeper I have seen when their tegus go down when they wake up they are much skinnier, they can argue all they want but not one has ever kept a tegu nor have they done research, they are still speaking on their geckos and beardies a whole seperate spefie from a whole different region


----------



## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 2, 2012)

_There's very little difference between hibernating and brumating, whether it's a reptile or mammal. Besides activity level and how deeply they're in torpor. But even in hibernation not all mammals are in a comatose state.

So how can they say because it's a reptile and not a mammal it can't hibernate it has to be brumation. When they're doing the same thing.

Which is why I said tell them to do some research on the differences between the two and what's in between. Even though they probably won't since research requires more than one source to support your info._


----------



## reptastic (Mar 2, 2012)

Exactly bubblz, acording to them if I feed my tegu's when they are brumating(by my standards) I'm slowly killing them, I asked them if any of them kept or did research on tegus, I still haven't gotten an answer just more I'm wrong and speading false information


----------



## reptastic (Mar 2, 2012)

Ok I just got these messages 1) its biologically impossible for a tegu to hibernate 2) they aren't actually sleep they just slowed down 3)a vet told 1member hibernation is a word used for brumation so they technically don't hibernate 4) their metabolism is slowed down it dosent stop like mammals 5) bobby hill and bert langerwolf are wrong and I'm basically ignorant for spreading the information I learned from them.....WOW!!! The biggest problem I have is not one of them has ever owned a tegu or did research on them, they kept comparing what we call hibernationin tegus to what they call brumation in beardies and gecko species, 3 animals from different regions, very different behaviour everything about them is different but "I'm wrong and they are right" is how one member put it


----------



## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 2, 2012)

reptastic said:


> Ok I just got these messages 1) its biologically impossible for a tegu to hibernate _*(Why)*_2) they aren't actually sleep they just slowed down _*(they both sleep to different degrees)*_3)a vet told 1member hibernation is a word used for brumation so they technically don't hibernate _*(which means they are pretty much the same thing but slightly different. Was it a Vet that specializes in Reptiles?)*_4) their metabolism is slowed down it dosent stop like mammals _*(mammals metabolism doesn't stop in hibernation either. That's why they fatten up before hibernation)*_5) bobby hill and bert langerwolf are wrong and I'm basically ignorant for spreading the information I learned from them.....WOW!!! The biggest problem I have is not one of them has ever owned a tegu or did research on them, they kept comparing what we call hibernationin tegus to what they call brumation in beardies and gecko species, 3 animals from different regions, very different behaviour everything about them is different but "I'm wrong and they are right" is how one member put it



_As for the last comment usually when people have nothing better to say, can't prove or back up what they're saying they get frustrated and resort to insults._


----------



## reptastic (Mar 2, 2012)

Exactly bubblz which is why I left it alone


----------



## Bubblz Calhoun (Mar 2, 2012)

_Hear say is hear say,.. where is their proof, put up or shut up. If you haven't already I would provide some links that support the fact that reptiles hibernate. For me,.. " If you know something I don't know and can prove it. Then by all means help me out, enlighten instead of insult me". I mean Education is a part of what forum communities are for right._


----------



## reptastic (Mar 2, 2012)

The only thing they provided other than babble were 2 wiki link one on hibernation and 1 on 1 brumation the quote in my previous post was an exerp from the hibernation link, I couldnt post links because I'm on a mobile phone, I found it sad that I'm being called basically stupid because I refuse to share there beliefs, like I stated to them I have been doing reseach on tegus since 2007, not just googling care sheets as they put it, but actually talking with keepers who have sucessfully kept and bred tegus from many years, I don't see their tegus dying off, I told them basically ill stick to the experts, then I was asked why I keep reffering to tegus, my answer was because you keep saying no reptile can hibernate yet I have reptile that has been scientifically proven to do just that, but I gues in their eyes I'm still wrong, but no one can actually p0rove to me otherwise


----------



## AP27 (Mar 2, 2012)

Many reptile species do not hibernate, and only brumate. But hibernation is physically possible in some reptile species. I.e. tegus, some box turtles and tortoises and a few other burrowing species. If they are too ignorant to except what is a scientifically proven fact, I would just drop it. Doesn't sound worth the trouble to argue about it to me when they obviously aren't willing to take any other point of view. Though there are many sights and facts you could quote to them that state this. And the term 'hibernation' was actually originally coined to refer to cold blooded species.

"[Hibernation] A term generally applied to a condition of dormancy and torpor found in cold-blooded (poikilotherm) vertebrates and invertebrates. (The term is also applied to relatively few species of mammals and birds, which are warm-blooded vertebrates.) This rather universal phenomenon can be readily seen when body temperatures of poikilotherm animals drop in a parallel relation to ambient environmental temperatures."

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/hibernation#ixzz1o1m0z0oA


----------



## reptastic (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks ap27 I posted that link for them


----------



## AP27 (Mar 2, 2012)

No problem. Let me know if it sways their opinion at all.


----------



## reptastic (Mar 2, 2012)

Lol ap27 now the main guy who has been telling me i m wrong and reptiles can't hibernate this was his response to the link " hibernation isn't inaccurate its just when reffering to reptiles the term brumation should be applied" wait if hibernation is accurate and brumation is the preffered term then basically you are saying they are the same thing now? Its funny how when you provide scientific basis they change up

By the way he provided a link to lll reptiles were they had a description of brumation which almost mirrored your link they replaced hibernation with brumation and dratically shortened it


----------



## AP27 (Mar 2, 2012)

Well they're still wrong. Hibernation and brumation, though somewhat similar, are different. To refer to a hibernating animal as only brumating would be inaccurate. That implies that the animal is still occasionally taking food and still somewhat active, which hibernating animals do/are not. I still don't think you'll fully win this debate with them( for reasons entirely on their part) but at least you managed to fluster them and make them change their story lolAlso, this was taken from lll reptile's article on brumation:

"Brumation is a term used for the *hibernation-like state* that cold-blooded animals utilize during very cold weather."

That statement in itself proves that brumation and hibernation are different. And that using 'brumation' as a substitute for 'hibernation' would be incorrect.


----------



## reptastic (Mar 2, 2012)

Thank you ap27, this all started because I posted that my female tegu hibernated and didn't eat this past winter and my male just brumated he ate once a week at the most twice, that link really shut em up


----------



## AP27 (Mar 2, 2012)

Funny how a simple statement can launch a debate. Perhaps now they may rethink their knowledge of brumation vs. hibernation.


----------



## Rhetoric (Mar 3, 2012)

I always thought there was a slight difference between the two. I had been under the impression brumation was more of a slow down or when the tegus would do a back and forth type thing. And hibernation was out completely, like a bear.


----------



## reptastic (Mar 3, 2012)

Alexi that's my understanding of it, which Is how it all got started


----------



## Wil (Mar 3, 2012)

reptastic said:


> Ok I just got these messages 1) its biologically impossible for a tegu to hibernate 2) they aren't actually sleep they just slowed down 3)a vet told 1member hibernation is a word used for brumation so they technically don't hibernate 4) their metabolism is slowed down it dosent stop like mammals 5) bobby hill and bert langerwolf are wrong and I'm basically ignorant for spreading the information I learned from them.....WOW!!! The biggest problem I have is not one of them has ever owned a tegu or did research on them, they kept comparing what we call hibernationin tegus to what they call brumation in beardies and gecko species, 3 animals from different regions, very different behaviour everything about them is different but "I'm wrong and they are right" is how one member put it



Correct me if I am wrong, but when metabolism stops, doesn't that mean you dead?

Hibernation and brumation are synonymous. Only brumation was the terminology created just for reptiles or ectotherms although I am not sure how accepted it is by the scientific community.

As a side note, bears are not inactive throughout the whole winter. Not only do they give birth during hibernation they will also arise during times of good weather. Mammals still metabolize their fat stores during hibernation and still process food that may be consumed during warmer weather. Reptiles on the other hand can not as they depend on fauna and enzymes in the stomach that are only active when heated up to certain temperatures. In essence, if you feed your reptiles while you are trying to hibernate them, the food could potentially rot in the stomach because those enzymes will not break it down.

Instead of arguing with anyone who may be ignorant, just ask them what experience do they have to prove you otherwise. And of that experience, how many animals to support their findings. You can weed out a lot of b.s. that way usually, but there are always people who just love to argue to make them feel more important than they are.


----------



## laurarfl (Mar 5, 2012)

I just ignore them, lol


----------



## reptastic (Mar 5, 2012)

You know wil I asked them that no one ever answered me, so after the insults started flying I just left it alone


----------



## Dana C (Apr 4, 2012)

rhetoricx said:


> I always thought there was a slight difference between the two. I had been under the impression brumation was more of a slow down or when the tegus would do a back and forth type thing. And hibernation was out completely, like a bear.



Actually, many bears and other mammals wake up and emerge from their dens occasionally during the winter. Some sleep straight through but a lot don't.


----------



## m3s4 (Apr 4, 2012)

I don't know if this will be of any help or not, but Ally my B&W was intent on hibernating/brumating this year. 

I don't think she was hiberbating, but rather brumating because every week, I would wake her, put her under her UVB, let her warm up for an hour or so, and supply her with a water dish which she readily drank from each time I offered it to her. I didn't try any food because of the low temps (75) in the house and the obvious digestion problems that can occur during this state of torpor for tegus. Then, I'd let her sleep for another week. Without changing any temps in the house, things here in Colorado began heating up - high 70's, and that affected the ambient temp in the house by about 10 degrees avg. 

_Well, to my surprise, *Ally would be up on top of her 4x4 pillow* she was previously dormant under every day I came home from work a couple weeks ago - up and ready to return to being active. I obliged and would put her in the sunlight while the weather was warm. We are way ahead of scedule for that type of weather here in Colorado, but due to the ambient changes, Ally's internal clock had to be telling her conditions were right to be active. Oh and she just shed...So apparently she was growing during this time of dormancy. 

It just snowed here yesterday. *None of my tegus* were interested in being up, nor eating. What does this tell me? Well, there was no change in temps in the house. They weren't out in the snow. They did however, sense the drop in barometric pressure and the increase in humidity. The result? Napping tegus that for all I know, were brumating because of the shift in pressure and a storm that although they couldn't see, they could feel.

So, do you think that it's possible the tegu(s) instinctively know when to *hibernate* and when to *brumate*? I do, and I think they will do *both*. My guess would be they do whichever they *have to do* depending on a number of factors including ambient temps, humidity, burrow depth, location of the burrow, location of the animal, amount of food and amount of water consumed prior to going dormant etc.

Just my 2. Reptastic, I believe you were right when debating those other herpers and that became apparent when they tried to save face after the lll link you provided. By not dropping it the subject and sticking to your guns, hopefully you were able to educate some other reptile lovers and at the end of the day that's all we can hope for. 

I have my own *theory* as mentioned, as to what they do and when they do it but I have no clue how they do it - other then observation, some net-research and a logical approach to what seems to be a very complicated subject that is still up for debate. 

As my grandfather used to say, "Don't ask me, I don't know sh|t"_


----------

