# Maximum basking surface temp



## BatGirl1 (Mar 5, 2013)

It may be somewhere else on here but what would be the absolute maximum basking surface temp. My temp gage is reading 122. This is directly under the light, which is a 150w flood. It is aimed at a stone platform. The temp of the entire stone platform is not as high. At one side it was reading 106. I want good temps but don't want him to burn and I'm not sure what is "too hot ". The ambient temps seem in the middle to high 90's on hot side and middle 70's on cool side. Thanks for any input. Also, I know when the fogger is hooked up this will probably change the temps because of the humidity factor. Niles is still asleep/hibernating in his other enclosure. Just want everything perfect for him when he wakes up and goes into his 'big boy ' house


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## Dubya (Mar 5, 2013)

D, are you going to use a mvb too? If so, I would cut back on the wattage a bit. Btw, those mvb's put out about the same heat as a halogen of half the wattage.


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## BatGirl1 (Mar 5, 2013)

No I have a fluoresent(spell) tube uvb across the back and two flood lights on the center ceiling. One aimed at the basking stone and one aimed towards the rest of the enclosure for ambient temp. I can always go down on one of the floods...the basking one...if it gets too hot. But not sure what 'too hot ' really is.


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## Dubya (Mar 5, 2013)

Gwangi seems to like the hottest part of the basking spot to be about 110.


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## laurarfl (Mar 5, 2013)

If the surface it 122, then it is not too hot. The surface will be hotter than ambient of course. Watch you tegu and see how he reacts to it.


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## Roadkill (Mar 5, 2013)

This is not as easy to answer as many would think. I imagine most people here think of temperature in "absolute" terms and would spit out a simple answer such as the typical "basking temps should be 110-115F", but I'd like to show you it isn't quite so simple. Without a doubt this temperature is important and you should be aiming for a certain range, but some other things to keep in mind are the thermal properties of basking spot itself, particularly the thermal conductivity and thermal capacitance. Heat is energy, and the thermal conductivity of an object is, in layman's terms, its ability to transfer that heat, how easily it will "give it up". Thermal capacitance is a measure of an object's ability to "absorb" this energy (really, how much energy is required to be absorbed to raise a set mass by 1 degree). If an object has a high thermal capacity and a high thermal conductance, I'd say this would be very dangerous to use as a basking platform as it has a high amount of heat stored at any temperature and will readily offload it to your pet. Thankfully there really aren't that many materials with this set of characteristics. Metal has a medium thermal capacity, but a high thermal conductance - think how easily you can burn yourself by grabbing a hot piece of metal (most people don't realise it doesn't need to be that hot to actually burn - this is where the thermal conductance comes apparent). Wood typically has a high thermal capacity but a low thermal conductance - it can store a lot of energy, but it doesn't readily transfer that heat to another object. Grab a piece of metal at 200F and you'll likely quickly let go of it or suffer a burn - grab a piece of wood at the same temperature and you can likely handle it quite comfortably albeit not firmly (this is the principle that fire walkers take advantage of - walking on hot coals is no big deal because the thermal conductivity is low, but you wouldn't get them doing the same stunt on a sheet of metal at the same temperature because without question they'd suffer serious burns - it has nothing to do with mind over matter, more mind over fear).

So some things to keep in mind with all this is that tegus like to regulate their body temperature around the same level that typically most mammals do. To do this, and to do so in timely fashion, they actually need access to temperatures greater than regular body temperature (just like any equilibrium exchange scenario, the closer to equilibrium, the slower equilibrium is approached - so if you've offered 98F, it will take a long time for them to reach 98F; offer them 120F however, and they can readily reach 98F quickly and then back off the heat). However, there is a limit to how hot you want to offer, and as I've explained above, the characteristic of that heat is also important. There is a frequent phenomenon observed with reptiles that science has yet to fully understand - give them radiant heat and reptiles seem to thermoregulate quite well and without too much trouble; give them conductive heat (from a solid surface) and for some reason reptiles will cuddle up to a branding iron without seeming to notice they're burning themselves severely. This is why you need to be aware of the thermal conductance of the basking area. It would be of no real use to tell people the measure of thermal conductance you should be reaching for (there might be an optimum, but I don't think it has been worked out - clearly wood is not likely to burn, most rock should be safe....), but it is quite easy to discern empirically. Once your basking area has heated up after a few hours, place your bare wrist against it. If you feel comfortable with the heat, then it's fine for your tegu. If, however, it feels like it's potentially burning you, you should probably replace your basking platform.


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## Scott_k (Mar 5, 2013)

With Tyson he has two areas to bask, I use a 250 watt flood light which gets around 115-120f and a 160 watt power sun which gets to about 100-105f. I noticed that he alternates between the two. He spends more time on the hotter side though.


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## BatGirl1 (Mar 6, 2013)

Thank you soooo much  . As I said, the whole surface does not reach 122. Just the spot directly under the flood. If I put my hand there it is "hot " , but I don't have to pull away. And as my hand absorbs the heat the surface temp lowers and the top of my hand begins to heat instead, obviously. But I will try the wrist next time. I only have a thermometor and not a "gun " , so my thought was that the unit being placed under the flood may have been "heating up " based on the components inside of it and not the actual temp of the stone (maybe wire/plastic/metal) . But that 122 is what it was reading after a short time. If placed 'nearby ' it was reading in the mid/high 90's. This is with doors open , mind you, and no humidity. My thought is perhaps he would adjust himself if he became too hot, and someone at the pet store I go to (she breeds reptiles so she's not just a dumb cashier, haha, no offense to cashiers, I'm saying she isn't just in it for the money she knows her stuff...ugh I'll stop now). . . Anyway she said in the wild rocks,etc get crazy temps and the reptiles go to the areas they feel most comfortable. And can take higher temps than what people say, etc. I was just worried about contact burns and also if he'd 'know enough ' to move if it got 'too much '. I have heard not to use heat rocks for that reason.because they can burn animals. I appreciate all the feedback. Thank you all so much. 


Also I remember the 'wrist test ' from making bottles for my kids when they were babies  , which was so long ago now I had forgotten.


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## Roadkill (Mar 6, 2013)

You're fairly correct, things left in the light will heat up according to energy they are receiving from the light and may not reflect the actual temperature of the surface you're trying to measure (hence where a cheap temp gun really comes in handy).


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## laurarfl (Mar 6, 2013)

I was surprised at the difference between surface temps and ambient when I got my temp gun. On a 90 degree day, the sandy surface outside would be 118 or so. That is the area that the tegus and tortoise like to bask.


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## nepoez (Mar 6, 2013)

my tegu would go to the basking spot which is about 122F, made of a red brick, he'd stay there for about 1-3 minutes and then you go roam around again for the duration of the time that he's not burrowing. Then every once in a while he'd bask again for a couple mins, then repeat.


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## Dubya (Mar 6, 2013)

[attachment=6593] http://www.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-non-contact-69465.html

I use this thermometer. You can get it on sale cheaper. Even cheaper with the "Inside Track Club" card.


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## Raicardoso (Mar 6, 2013)

Yeah this was something i struggled a lot with ( still struggle a bit with). Whether to focus more on the surface temperature or the temperature of when his back when he's on the rock. When he's off the rock its 120 but when he's on it it's obviously quite lower.


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## BatGirl1 (Mar 6, 2013)

*Re: RE: Maximum basking surface temp*



Dubya said:


> http://www.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-non-contact-69465.html
> 
> I use this thermometer. You can get it on sale cheaper. Even cheaper with the "Inside Track Club" card.



Omg thank you so much! The girl was telling me the guns could be really expensive. This is not bad at all! I'll order one asap!


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## Dubya (Mar 6, 2013)

BatGirl1 said:


> Dubya said:
> 
> 
> > http://www.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-with-laser-targeting-non-contact-69465.html
> ...


I could pick one up for you and use my discount card. I would bring it with me to Manchester and save you shipping. First check if they have a store near you.


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## laurarfl (Mar 6, 2013)

I use this one.

http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/89_77/products_id/10102/n/Pro-Exotics-PE-1-Temp-Gun?utm_source=Google-Base&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Product-Feeds&source=google_ext&gclid=CLjxmrC06LUCFQP0nAodszYA5w


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## Dubya (Mar 6, 2013)

[attachment=6594] Even cheaper
http://www.harborfreight.com/non-contact-pocket-thermometer-93983.html


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## laurarfl (Mar 6, 2013)

There!

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Digital-Fever-Thermometer-Features-Peak-Temperature-Beeper-Last-Read-Memory-1-EA/12521168


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## Dubya (Mar 6, 2013)

laurarfl said:


> There!
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/ip/Digital-Fever-Thermometer-Features-Peak-Temperature-Beeper-Last-Read-Memory-1-EA/12521168



That one has to go in the tegu's ear hole or butt!


Take this, Laura, I can play that game!
http://www.reply2day.com/OSF


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## laurarfl (Mar 6, 2013)

lol. Let me find one for free AND a rebate!


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## Dubya (Mar 6, 2013)

laurarfl said:


> lol. Let me find one for free AND a rebate!



Don't even waste your time. Trish will tell you that NOBODY can find things cheaper than me (aka "The Finder")


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## BatGirl1 (Mar 6, 2013)

Should I get you guys horses and swords so you can properly fight over me? Heh heh 
[attachment=6595][attachment=6596][attachment=6597]


Done!!! Yaaaay!


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## Roadkill (Mar 6, 2013)

As for things in direct light, they can absorb much more energy than we think and overheat way more than the ambient temperature would suggest. In Brasil my temperature data loggers that were left out in the sun would crap out and fail mid-day as they overshot their upper level (>60 degrees Celsius) even though ambient was no where near that. Similarly, if a tegu stayed out in direct sun all day, they too would die (put a data logger in a dead tegu and left it in the sun to determine this).

As for temp guns, there's a reason some are really expensive while others are dirt cheap. It relates to their accuracy, what temperature range they have, whether you can adjust their emissivity measure, and what the distance:surface area read ratio is. The cheapo ones probably have an accuracy of +-1 degree, average temperature ranges (not too low below freezing, not too high), and a really limited D: S ratio (usually 8:1 but I've seen as low as 1:1) which affects how far away you can be to get a decent reading.


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## BatGirl1 (Mar 6, 2013)

Roadkill, so..... am i good do you think? My wrist test has led me to believe he's not going to burn himself. And now that I have humidity running, cool side is saying 74 with humidity at 41% currently, but will prob rise more. And warm side overall at 81 but basking roughly 100 give or take.
[attachment=6598][attachment=6599][attachment=6600] he's sooooo sleepy.


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## Dubya (Mar 6, 2013)

The HF laser sighted thermometer can take temps pretty far away and has a wide range. Plus or minus one degree shouldn't matter.


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## laurarfl (Mar 6, 2013)

Yes, mine has to be pretty close.


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## Roadkill (Mar 6, 2013)

Uh, hate to break it to you, Dubya, but that HF you have a link to has a D: S ratio of 1:1 - while all IR thermometers can take temps pretty far away, it helps to understand what you're actually reading.....a 1:1 ratio means that at 1 foot away, you're getting the average temperature of the surface of a 1 foot diameter circle, or in other words, you're not measuring your tegu's body temperature at any distance further than about 3 inches.


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## BatGirl1 (Mar 6, 2013)

I'm very confused now. 
Ugh.so it's reading 74 in there now. :/ is that bad for night temps? I'll have to get a red night bulb. Def. Grrrr.


Ok...so I think my only "real " issue after re-reading all the info is ...is the night time temp too low. I understand at night temps naturally go down. The reptiles burrow and sleep at night. So realistically 74 or around that 'might ' be fine(?) Right? I don't know...trying to learn.  *shudders at having to admit she doesn't know everything*.


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## Roadkill (Mar 6, 2013)

Personally, I'd want the night time temperature a few degrees higher. I don't have any concrete evidence to say for sure, but analysis of my physiological data seems to point at that temp (74F) as being the tipping point between "active" and "hibernating". Not saying that it (or lower temps) would induce hibernation, just that in free roaming tegus, it was roughly around that temperature at night that you see a pronounced shift in physiology.


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## BatGirl1 (Mar 6, 2013)

Yeah...dubya said raise temps with night bulb instead of che. Ugh. I DEFINITELY don't want him to hibernate any longer.  I can tell his tail is not buldgy like it was so I know his reserves are probably depleting. *sigh* I thought this would be easier to get 'right ' with all of my research plus info from everyone on TeguTalk ...  I just want niles to be happy/healthy/well taken care of. I won't give up! I'll get this!!!


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## Dubya (Mar 6, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> Uh, hate to break it to you, Dubya, but that HF you have a link to has a D: S ratio of 1:1 - while all IR thermometers can take temps pretty far away, it helps to understand what you're actually reading.....a 1:1 ratio means that at 1 foot away, you're getting the average temperature of the surface of a 1 foot diameter circle, or in other words, you're not measuring your tegu's body temperature at any distance further than about 3 inches.



Roadkill, I hate to break it to you, but I can get within 3 inches of my tegu, which is what I usually do.


Look, just measure the temps at 3 inches and move away in increments testing each time till the temp changes. That will be your effective range of the thermometer.


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## Roadkill (Mar 6, 2013)

Then I'd have to say you and I have very different ideas of what "pretty far away" means, or what determines the effective range of a IR thermometer.


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## BatGirl1 (Mar 6, 2013)

Ok I'm def getting a night bulb instead of che. It sucks. :/ useless unless niles learns how to stand on his tippy toes and sleep directly under it like that...


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## Dubya (Mar 6, 2013)

I don't need to check my tegus temp from the bathroom. A foot away would be plenty.


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## Roadkill (Mar 6, 2013)

Not saying you do, but if you've got an IR thermometer with a D: S ratio of 1:1, and are measuring your tegu's body temperature from a foot away, then you're sadly mistaken if you think it is measuring just your tegu's body temperature.

BatGirl, what wattage of ceramic heat emitter have you been trying to use? And from what distance? An alternative you might consider would be a heated hide - instead of trying to heat the entire enclosure you could try to heat just their burrow with something like heat tape or a heat cord.


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## BatGirl1 (Mar 7, 2013)

The che is 150w. It is up on the ceiling and my enclosure is 3ft tall with approx 12in of substrate. His basking 'bench ' gets nice and warm underneath but at night the lights go off...so yeah, maybe if I put another hide under where i have the ceramic socket mounted, then put the night bulb in it instead of the che, that hide will be his 'warm place ' for the night time(?) I'll try that! ALSO ...dubya, you weren't kidding about the peat! I had to REMOVE it bucket by bucket, soak it with 4 gallons of water and knead it through my hands, then put it back in. Omg I hope it retains that moisture! I was doing that since like 6:30am and pretty much just cleaned up and sat to rest my aching back and shoulders! Yikes!!!


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## Dubya (Mar 7, 2013)

D, I use these night lamps. They project heat downward very well. I use two 75w for night heat. I have them on an inline lamp dimmer so I can reduce the intensity as temps get warmer in the spring. They are available up to 250w. 
http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-incandescent-bulbs/11442-504715/zoo-med-nocturnal-infrared-heat-lamp.html
Btw, Roadkill, the Harbor Freight laser targeted thermometer is 8:1.



BatGirl1 said:


> The che is 150w. It is up on the ceiling and my enclosure is 3ft tall with approx 12in of substrate. His basking 'bench ' gets nice and warm underneath but at night the lights go off...so yeah, maybe if I put another hide under where i have the ceramic socket mounted, then put the night bulb in it instead of the che, that hide will be his 'warm place ' for the night time(?) I'll try that! ALSO ...dubya, you weren't kidding about the peat! I had to REMOVE it bucket by bucket, soak it with 4 gallons of water and knead it through my hands, then put it back in. Omg I hope it retains that moisture! I was doing that since like 6:30am and pretty much just cleaned up and sat to rest my aching back and shoulders! Yikes!!!


You will have to stir it up sometimes so mold doesn't form in it. If you let it dry out completely, you will have a hell of a time wetting it again. I use a clean, new garden sprayer as a mister besides the crappy repti-fogger.


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## BatGirl1 (Mar 7, 2013)

I was thinking of using another members idea too of putting earthworms in the peat...wouldn't this help regulate everything? Moisture and turning the soil, etc. Plus yummy snacks for niles to 'find ' for enrichment


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## aambumann (Mar 9, 2013)

Here is the temp gun I use from Amazon.com, http://www.amazon.com/Infrared-Thermometer-Contact-Temperature-Measurement/dp/B002OD0NCG it has been dependable. You can also check out Newwegg.com, http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&N=-1&isNodeId=1&Description=temperature+gun+infrared


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## Dubya (Mar 9, 2013)

BatGirl1 said:


> I was thinking of using another members idea too of putting earthworms in the peat...wouldn't this help regulate everything? Moisture and turning the soil, etc. Plus yummy snacks for niles to 'find ' for enrichment


[attachment=6619]
Not just for Niles! (nom nom nom)


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## BatGirl1 (Mar 9, 2013)

The closest i'd go with that is raw sushi.  not alive though... just raw. Like dover special ( spicy tuna, avacado, flying fish eggs, in sushi rice... mmmm. Eel isn't bad either. The calimari texture made me gag though....omg gross. Never tried it battered and fried.maybe that tastes better (?) And octopus was ok but only dipped in soy sauce. Again...not alive! I saw a video of a girl eating a live octopus and i wanted to kill her. B****! :/


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## Pyr0kinesis (Mar 11, 2013)

I normally aim for about 140F-160F but I use 120F and up to 170F and have used as high as 208F without problems 

im obviously not recommending anyone go that high though


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