# Why fruit for tegus?



## VARNYARD (Jun 23, 2008)

What exactly is it about fruit that is said to make tegus shed better? I have heard that fruit is needed to make tegus shed better, however when using common sense it does not add up. Most soft fruits are 90-95% water, as for the vitamins; many types of meats have much higher concentrations of the ones that are good for skin than fruits. Also oils, as in cod liver oil, salmon and mackerel.

Some of my Argentine tegus will not eat fruit. They are just as healthy as any tegus that have fruit in the diet; they also have no shedding problems at all. The more I look into this, the more I see feeding fruit as being a waste of time and money. There are many things out there to feed your tegu that is much better than fruit.

In my opinion, feeding fruit for skin problems has no solid ground to back the claims of some keepers. There is nothing in most fruits to promote good sheds but moisture, all though some fruits do contain some vitamins that are good for skin. There are other sources of these vitamins in much higher concentrations, these are found in meats. 

Feeding fruit seems to be nothing more than a wasted meal, and is not needed to have and keep a healthy tegu.


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## tupinambis (Jul 3, 2008)

Some of what you have said is true, some of it is unfortunately short sighted. The most common thing that is bantered around concerning fruit and tegus is that they need vit.C for proper shedding. I'll back you on this, there's no study to prove any such thing. However, one compelling argument is that vitamin c deficiencies often do present as dermatological conditions. Whether this is true in reptiles has not been shown (or disproved).

Where you really go astray, Bobby, is in assuming that the only potential benefit of fruit would be vitamins and that those should be associated with shedding. You are correct that most are basically high in water content, but that's not a bad thing. Likewise, vitamins are supposed to be TRACE nutrients, not huge constituents of the diet. They are needed, most are not needed in high doses, just steady ones.

However, something fruit does have that most meat or whole prey foods do NOT is a fair bit of dietary fibre. That dietary fibre (as anyone who has fed their tegus lots of fruit will attest to) helps to keep the gut contents mobile and move that stuff through. There is some correlational evidence showing that tegus under less-than-ideal husbandry fed high rodent diets tended to get constipated, and I've seen the same in tegus fed other meats but lacking vegetative content. Adding fruit to these diets would be helpful.

It has also been indicated that many reptiles when confronted with constipation or similar gut motility issues, and lacking dietary fibre in their food, will resort to eating substrate. Whereas a little substrate ingestion is usually nothing to be concerned with, a constant habit of it or ingestion of large quantities of substrate can lead to other problems.

Other studies have also shown that increased plant content in the diet induces greater biotin uptake (this is independent of the biotin content of the vegetative matter). Biotin, amongst its numerous functions, DOES impact keratinized structures of the epidermis - hair, nails, horns, but most applicable to this discussion, the stratum corneum, ie. the outer most layer of the skin that is keratinized and is what reptiles have to routinely shed to grow properly. 

Looking at the gut content studies of naturally living tegus, _Tupinambis merianae, T. duseni_ and _T. rufescens_ particularly show high plant matter content in their diets. You say that feeding fruit is nothing more than a wasted meal. What is your interpretation then of these findings? Are these animals wasting their time eating this stuff? Is it bad for them? Admittedly these studies do not say why these items were ingested, but the frequency with which plant matter is ingested by these species indicates it is far from "a passing fad" or simple accidental ingestion while consuming something else. 

Yes, many tegus seem to be quite healthy without fruit in their diet. However, I would posit that what "seems" to be a healthy animal may not actually be. Sure, their sheds seem to be fine, but have you sat down and done studies to show that all the nutrient levels in their blood plasma was comparable between non-vegetative diet individuals and vegetative diet individuals? How about possible benefits to their lifespan? Decreased calorie diets (within reason) are well shown to promote lifespan in all animals, whereas high calorie content diets definitely reduce them. 

Something not exactly health related but compelling nonetheless is life history. Ever noticed how it is that all your bigger tegus ingest lots of plant matter in the wild? Or the fact that all the hibernating tegus are plant ingestors? There is something going on there that we don't fully understand.

You can say what you want about your handful of tegus that are supposedly healthy without eating fruit, I'll put my faith in what nature does instead.


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## VARNYARD (Jul 3, 2008)

> tupinambis: Some of what you have said is true, some of it is unfortunately short sighted. The most common thing that is bantered around concerning fruit and tegus is that they need vit.C for proper shedding. I'll back you on this, there's no study to prove any such thing. However, one compelling argument is that vitamin c deficiencies often do present as dermatological conditions. Whether this is true in reptiles has not been shown (or disproved).



Colin, where do you get these facts? Yes tegus might need Vitamin C, and beef liver is rich in it, 100 grams of beef liver contains 27.0 mgs of Vitamin C. And tegus will eat it unlike fruit that some will eat, and yet other will not touch or consume.



> Where you really go astray, Bobby, is in assuming that the only potential benefit of fruit would be vitamins and that those should be associated with shedding. You are correct that most are basically high in water content, but that's not a bad thing. Likewise, vitamins are supposed to be TRACE nutrients, not huge constituents of the diet. They are needed, most are not needed in high doses, just steady ones.



Please show me what "TRACE nutrients" are only found in fruits and not in meats such as beef liver. And then prove they need these.



> However, something fruit does have that most meat or whole prey foods do NOT is a fair bit of dietary fibre. That dietary fibre (as anyone who has fed their tegus lots of fruit will attest to) helps to keep the gut contents mobile and move that stuff through. There is some correlational evidence showing that tegus under less-than-ideal husbandry fed high rodent diets tended to get constipated, and I've seen the same in tegus fed other meats but lacking vegetative content. Adding fruit to these diets would be helpful.
> 
> It has also been indicated that many reptiles when confronted with constipation or similar gut motility issues, and lacking dietary fibre in their food, will resort to eating substrate. Whereas a little substrate ingestion is usually nothing to be concerned with, a constant habit of it or ingestion of large quantities of substrate can lead to other problems.



There is not one ounce of proof that tegus need fiber, as well as many other carnivorous lizards, as in monitors and many, many more. You are throwing garbage out there for people to assume you know what you are talking about. What about Colombian tegus? Are they extinct? I think not, and they do not eat fruit or fiber. 

Good dietary sources of biotin include organ meats, such as beef liver, chicken livers, chicken gizzards, whole rodents and even egg yolk. It is not just found in fruit, looking to blow smoke on that as well? Sorry not going to fly here. Do the research before looking like you know the facts.

A good diet with cod liver oil will solve any constipation or similar gut motility issues, and would work better then fruit.




> Looking at the gut content studies of naturally living tegus, Tupinambis merianae, T. duseni and T. rufescens particularly show high plant matter content in their diets. You say that feeding fruit is nothing more than a wasted meal. What is your interpretation then of these findings? Are these animals wasting their time eating this stuff? Is it bad for them? *Admittedly these studies do not say why these items were ingested*, but the frequency with which plant matter is ingested by these species indicates it is far from "a passing fad" or simple accidental ingestion while consuming something else.



Wrong, in the studies tegus did consume fruit, but in the study it was almost all different types of dates. And not other types of soft fruit, also the seed content was due to the seeds found from consuming these dates, the tegus did not go out looking for seeds. Do the homework!!



> Yes, many tegus seem to be quite healthy without fruit in their diet. However, I would posit that what "seems" to be a healthy animal may not actually be. Sure, their sheds seem to be fine, but have you sat down and done studies to show that all the nutrient levels in their blood plasma was comparable between non-vegetative diet individuals and vegetative diet individuals? How about possible benefits to their lifespan? Decreased calorie diets (within reason) are well shown to promote lifespan in all animals, whereas high calorie content diets definitely reduce them.
> 
> Something not exactly health related but compelling nonetheless is life history. Ever noticed how it is that all your bigger tegus ingest lots of plant matter in the wild? Or the fact that all the hibernating tegus are plant ingestors? There is something going on there that we don't fully understand.
> 
> You can say what you want about your handful of tegus that are supposedly healthy without eating fruit, I'll put my faith in what nature does instead.



Supposedly healthy? You are not right in the head Colin, my tegus are not healthy? Look at them, I mean we need not ramble about false facts, look at them. I have old tegus that are still reproducing and having fertile clutches of eggs. Some over 10 years old, you know as well as me, if they were unhealthy from not eating fruit, which would be the first thing to go. 

I will give you one last warning, if you are here to argue about so-called facts, and based on nothing more then hog wash, I will show you the door. You need to do the research before acting like you know what you are talking about.


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## tupinambis (Jul 4, 2008)

Bobby, a lot of what you are arguing with is yourself, please don't feel the need to spank me because you can't handle a little debate.



> Colin, where do you get these facts? Yes tegus might need Vitamin C, and beef liver is rich in it, 100 grams of beef liver contains 27.0 mgs of Vitamin C. And tegus will eat it unlike fruit that some will eat, and yet other will not touch or consume.



Let me ask what you are arguing about. I said that a lot of people state vit.C is needed for proper shedding. I also stated I have not found any study that backs this up, basically agreeing with some of your statement. If that's wrong, then I guess you're saying you're wrong?!?! What I did say was that compellingly, some presentations of hypovitaminosis C were dermatological. Is this what you are calling wrong? From Mader's second edition Reptile Medicine and Surgery - "Speculation exists that bleeding and disruptions of the basement membrane of the dermis and epidermis develop. This condition is suspected to occur because vitamin C is necessary for the hydroxylation of proline, which is involved in collagen production and function. The authors have observed a condition similar to that described for vitamin C deficiency only in severely malnuourished boas in which an acute disruption of the epidermal and and dermal layers of the skin developed."
Now; collagen is a necessary component of the skin;the skin is comprised of two main germinal layers, the epidermis and the dermis - sounds like they are talking about dermatological expression of hypovitaminosis to me. However, as I stated, it is 
_compelling_, that doesn't mean it's proof.
I didn't say beef liver didn't have vitamin C, or any other weird interpretation you wish to put on that, so your point is.....? However, uncooked liver is also a decent vector for parasites and germs, whereas fruits are usually not vectors of these pathogens (yes there are exceptions, this is just something for you to think about).



> Please show me what "TRACE nutrients" are only found in fruits and not in meats such as beef liver. And then prove they need these.


Why? I made no such claim that only fruits had certain trace nutrients and meats did not, that's YOUR statement not mine. My point was that your argument


> There are other sources of these vitamins in much higher concentrations, these are found in meats


 seemed to indicate that you were making the statement that tegus needed large quantities of these vitamins, when in fact most vitamins, no matter what their source, are generally only needed in trace amounts.



> There is not one ounce of proof that tegus need fiber, as well as many other carnivorous lizards, as in monitors and many, many more. You are throwing garbage out there for people to assume you know what you are talking about. What about Colombian tegus? Are they extinct? I think not, and they do not eat fruit or fiber.


Again, this is YOUR argument, NOT mine. I did NOT state that tegus NEED fiber, nor did I make any insinuation that without it they die. What I DID say was that it helps to keep gut contents mobile and move stuff through. Considering all your recent talk about constipated tegus and such, I figured you could see the value in this, but apparently not. I'm not "throwing garbage out there" at all, go talk to your vet, your doctor, a nutritionist, whatever, proper dietary fiber is a laxative, no matter what animal we are talking about. Keeping the gut contents mobile is a good thing. And you are wrong about _Tupinambis teguixin_ not eating fruit at all, there are numerous articles that show the gut contents of wild _T.teguixin_ do often (not always, not in high amounts) contain plant content. I'm not saying they NEED it, or that they WILL DIE without it, I'm saying it is benificial.



> Good dietary sources of biotin include organ meats, such as beef liver, chicken livers, chicken gizzards, whole rodents and even egg yolk. It is not just found in fruit, looking to blow smoke on that as well? Sorry not going to fly here. Do the research before looking like you know the facts.


Again, Bobby, you are making arguments for yourself, I did NOT state that biotin only comes from fruit, I did NOT state that you couldn't get biotin from animal sources, these are YOUR strawman arguments. What I said is that studies have shown that when comparing animals that are omnivorous, individuals kept on a strict carnivorous diet did not have as high of biotin uptake as individuals with plant matter in their diet, and that the biotin uptake was NOT related to the biotin content of the plant matter. This means that when these two groups are given the exact same food with the exact same nutrient contents, the ones routinely fed plant matter had greater biotin uptake than the ones that were strictly carnivorous. You clearly have problems understanding the material being discussed.



> A good diet with cod liver oil will solve any constipation or similar gut motility issues, and would work better then fruit.


Ok, I'll take your tactic here: where's your proof that it's better? Or are you just "throwing garbage out there"? I'm not denying cod liver oil is good for them, never was my stance to deny that. 



> Wrong, in the studies tegus did consume fruit, but in the study it was almost all different types of dates. And not other types of soft fruit, also the seed content was due to the seeds found from consuming these dates, the tegus did not go out looking for seeds. Do the homework!!


Do the homework? Indeed! From Avila-Pires, 1995 "MPEG 12920 - one _Bufo_ sp.; one fruit and other vegetable matter; an ant head and the abdomen of another insect; pieces of egg shell; a small stone. MPEG 13020 - many seeds occupied a large part of stomach and intestine; MPEG 31021 - remnants of a small owl, probably _Otus_ sp., and of a frog; a spider; remnants of insects; a small amount of vegetable fibres. MPEG 13954 - two frogs, one Orthopteron, vegetable matter. MPEG 31955 - vegetable matter (maybe fruits)." Hmmn, no where does he say dates or that the seeds are only from dates. From William Beebe's Field Notes on the Lizards of Kartabo, British Guiana, and Caripito, Venezuela. Part 3. Teiidae, Amphisbaenidae and Scincidae - "Food: The tegu is an omnivorous feeder in the widest possible meaning of that term. No phylum of animals is refused, whether the organisms are small or large, living or long dead. A large number of plants, leaves and berries are taken. I saw them feeding many times on plants which I had thought poisonous........A dozen stomach contents will give a cross section of the food of the tegu around the laboratory in the jungle at Kartabo and Caripito. (1) Five large cokeyao berries, young _Cnemidophorus_ lizard 175 mm in length, two small spiders, large tarantula-hawk wasp; (2) Long-horned grasshopper, crab, several dead leaves, six yellow-fleshed fruits; (3) Hair, bones and skin of spiny rat, large beetle; (4) Beetle, roach, three centipedes; (5) Mass of chewed-up insects, leaves, hunting wasp, bones and feathers of tinamou from the laboratory garbage dump; (6) Large red berries, several winged queens of _Cryptoceros atratus_; (7) Skull of jungle mouse, large cone-headed grasshopper; (8) Large _Passalus_ beetle, medium-sized _Ameiva_, three seeds; (9) Centipede, grasshopper, small snake; (10) Massof egg yolk, _Leptodactylus_ frog; (11) 18 yellow fruits; (12) Three worker _Nasutitermes ephratae_. (This tegu had just hatched in a termite nest and these insects were eaten before I captureed him.)" Strange, again no mention of dates at all, but also interesting, Beebe is describing the gut contents of what he identified as _Tupinambis nigropunctatus_ which is currently recognized as _T. teguixin_ - but you said they don't eat fruit or plants! Hmmn, let's see, I have another paper here, don't see the immediate author but it was in the journal Copeia, 1961, vol.4, Notes on the Teiid Lizards in Southern Brazil - "The teju is a true omnivore with the widest range of diet recorded for any teiid. Examination of eight stomachs yielded a total food volume of 90.5 cc: 30% vegetation (_Vitis_ and _Philodendron_ fruits), 20.0% gastropods (fragments of 5 large land snails), 30.0% arachnids (1 scorpion, 3 spiders), 8.0% orthopterans (2 grasshopers, 12 wood cockroaches), 30.0% coleopterans (20 beetles, 3 larvae), 5.4% lepidopterans (2 caterpillars), and 3.4% mammal (hair, teeth, fragments of skull of _Ctenomys_).........Individuals in nature were observed to feed on various windfall fruits and fish. Concentrations of tejus occur in stands of Banana Imbe (_Philodendron_ sp.) when the fruit is ripe (January), and along beaches where commercial fisherman bring in their nets and discard "trash" fish. Captive specimens in the Porto Alegre Zoo were observed to feed on mangoes, bananas and fish." Hmmn, _Vitis_ is in the grape family, and we all know (or should) _Philodendron_, neither of which are dates. But perhaps the most intriguing thing to mention is that "date fruit is the product of a date palm, a tree native to Northern Africa and the Middle East, although it is cultivated in other parts of the world." Yes, Bobby, they do eat various palm fruits, but not all palms are date palms, and there aren't that many date palms in the wilds of South America. Interestingly, although I do admit that tegus eat palm fruits, none of the articles I have on hand at the moment mention them in the least. Do my homework indeed, who's "throwing garbage out there"? Want me to dredge up even more articles showing you havenÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¾Ã?â??Ã?Â¢t read the literature or donÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¾Ã?â??Ã?Â¢t understand what is written?



> Supposedly healthy? You are not right in the head Colin, my tegus are not healthy? Look at them, I mean we need not ramble about false facts, look at them. I have old tegus that are still reproducing and having fertile clutches of eggs. Some over 10 years old, you know as well as me, if they were unhealthy from not eating fruit, which would be the first thing to go.


Yes, supposedly healthy. I'm not saying your animals are definitely sick. I'm saying looks can be deceiving. How many of us have known someone or knew of someone who looked the perfect picture of health but died rather suddenly due to an illness they were unaware of? Your animals likely are healthy. My point is that there are certain variables of which you or I do not know. How are their hemoglobin levels? Liver enzyme assays? Are you saying there is absolutely NO possible way they could be healthier? My statement was not made to intend your animals are ill, in fact I would have to say that yes, by looks alone they appear healthy. Looks can be deceiving. You state you've got some older than 10 years still producing eggs - perhaps you can then define at what age a healthy tegu should stop producing eggs? I would posit that given the size of a tegu, it's ectothermic physiology and correlation with what is known of the aging physiology of other reptiles, that statement is akin to stating "yeah, my car is fast, it can reach 30mph" - ie. they should be still producing eggs at 10 years if they're healthy. What in your books classifies as an old tegu? However, an interesting thing you neglected to mention is how in so many other posts here and on other sites of how so many of your tegus do eat fruit. By the vitriolic stand youÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¾Ã?â??Ã?Â¢ve taken here, it would seem your argument is that fruit is bad, are you saying those other posts were lies? Or were you harming your tegus by serving them fruit?

Your arguments are generally all "black & whites, all or nothing" type remarks: anyone who truly understands biology understands that rarely are things this way.



> I will give you one last warning, if you are here to argue about so-called facts, and based on nothing more then hog wash, I will show you the door. You need to do the research before acting like you know what you are talking about.


As I've shown, it's not me that has troubles with the research. But by all means, Bobby, show the kind of pettiness you did earlier, block my posts, delete stuff that showed you were wrong, kick me off the forum. Show everyone on this forum that you do not accept anyone who doesn't worship at the Church of Bobby and swallow everything you say as gospel. True scientific debate is open to controversy, but you wouldn't want that, would you? Go ahead and spank me, canÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¾Ã?â??Ã?Â¢t have people actually showing a mind of their own and able to see flaws in your word.


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## Nero (Jul 4, 2008)

I give up on tryin to give my columbian fruit he just wont eat it or even a small taste. The little runt just loves his mice. He kinda reminds me of a picky ball python because he wont even eat other meats I try to offer.


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## VARNYARD (Jul 4, 2008)

You keep trying to act like I am against fruit, and in a way I am, however it is stated cleaerly in my care sheet that they can eat fuit, I just do not agree it is a cure for shedding problems in tegus. I do think it is a wasted meal, and not the cure to any shed problems at all.

And as I have said before, I have "some" tegus that will eat it and some that will not, nor have they ever eaten it. They take the bedding and cover it up if it is offered to them. Are they less healthy than tegus that eat fruit, no, and I have both types, fruit eaters and nonfruit eaters.

And I know you are pro Abe, but the studies I refered to were by Fitzgerald, L.A., Abe is not the all knowing tegu god, Fitzgerald, has done just as much, if not more research than Abe on wild tegus.

And others: De Castro, E. R. & M. Galetti. 2004. 
Frugivory and seed dispersal by the tegu lizard Tupinambis merianae (Reptilia: Teiidae). 
Papeis Avulsos de Zoologia (Sao Paulo). 44(6) 91Ã?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â?¬Å¡Ã?Â¬Ã?â?¦Ã¢â?¬Å?97.

Three types of palms are Euterpe edulis Mart, Syagrus oleracea, Syagrus romanzoffiana Rodrigues et al. 1993, Galetti & Aleixo 1998, Galetti et al. 1999, Galetti et al. 2000, Pizo & Vierira 2004
De Castro & Galetti 2004 ConceiÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â? Ã¢â?¬â?¢Ã?Æ?Ã¢â?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?Â§ao de Souza-Stevaux et al. 1994, Galetti et al. 1992, Galetti & Pedroni 1994, Galetti et al. 1994, Mamede-Costa & Godoi 1998, Mota-Junior et al. 1994, Olmos et al. 1999, Collar 1997, Guix & Ruiz 1995, De FÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â? Ã¢â?¬â?¢Ã?Æ?Ã¢â?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¡tima M. Dos Santos & Hartz 1999, Motta-Junior & Martins 2002.



> Euterpe edulis Mart. Palmae. Assai Palm.
> 
> Tropical America. The long, terminal bud of this Brazilian palm is pronounced by Gardner equal to asparagus in flavor when cooked.
> 
> ...





> Syagrus oleracea
> Description: A slender palm, growing to 40-90ft. Fruit crops ripen twice a year with single fruit clusters numbering up to almost 1000. A single tree may produce thousands of fruits a season. Fruits ripen to a deep purple, almost black color.
> 
> Hardiness:Hardy to 35-40F, the Acai Palm doesn't grow very well outside of humid, warm environments.
> ...





> Syagrus romanzoffiana
> Description
> This is a palm with an identity crisis! A few decades ago the queen palm was assigned the name Cocos plumosa. During the late sixties and seventies most experts began referring to it as Arecastrum romanzoffianum. Now this queen has been placed in the genus Syagrus, the species name became romanzoffiana - hopefully Syagrus romanzoffiana will stick!
> 
> ...



This it three of the palms from south america that produce dates that are dispersed by tegus, I am sure if look more I will find others, but there is enough to prove my point.

Here is a link Colin:


> Scott Zona, Ph.D. A REVIEW OF ANIMAL-MEDIATED SEED DISPERSAL OF PALMS


<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.virtualherbarium.org/palms/psdispersal.html">http://www.virtualherbarium.org/palms/psdispersal.html</a><!-- m -->


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## angelrose (Jul 4, 2008)

my colombian was just like that the first year I had her and then she started eating any kind of meat I cooked and would and still does not go near a rodent. what's with that ?


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## Nero (Jul 4, 2008)

hahaha you have to cook for your columbian that is halarious!! Your tegu has spunk!!!!


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## angelrose (Jul 4, 2008)

lmao now ! it is very funny now that I see it in writing. I don't think I actually relized it.


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## Nero (Jul 5, 2008)

haha maybe ill cook my tegu a burger see if he likes it


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## angelrose (Jul 5, 2008)

.....LOL, try it just last night she ate a couple pieces of my daughters hamburger. she's into hamburger (lately). I get the very lean ground meat  .


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## Nero (Jul 6, 2008)

How has your columbian been doing? Mine has been really stand offish lately. Doesnt wanna be held petted or anything. Kinda seems like the old days were I was constantly chasin it around. And its being nervous as hell when I come around and running back and forth in his tank.


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## angelrose (Jul 6, 2008)

did you change anything ? is it hotter then usual ? do you let him roam around ?

my col. goes through times like that not as often now that she is older though. she would be in the kitchen waiting and then if I came in she would take off where most of the time she would just stay and start walking on my feet. on the occasion where she is in her house and I walk in the door she would start darting back and forth and hide. I just let her be because it could be the very next day where she will let me hold her again I guess that is just a part of their 'spunky-ness'.


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## Kharnifex (Jul 8, 2008)

i enjoyed reading the argument between bobby and colin.

all good subjects should be open for debate and criticism. and both offer valid points.

there really is no real evedence that a tegu that eats fruit is any healthier than a tegu that has a balanced carnivore diet.

but the fact that they eat fruit eather just spotlights how tough and survivalist these lizards are, or they're fulfilling a slight nutritive need that we cannot detect by their phisical health.

i believe i'm of the class that says they do not need fruit. i still offer fruit, i try to vary my girls diet as much as i can. 

i tend to use fruit as snacks. an inbetween meal. not to mention just as a disposal method for over ripe fruit.

also fruity poo doesn't seem to stink like death. so a little fruit here and their means my room stinks less. 

as much as i value your input and eagerly snatch up any and all new tegu info/observations/reaserch tidbits i believe having an intelligent guy like tupinambis try and shoot holes in your theory really just strengthens the entire thread. i mean. imagine if all there was in this thread was you're first post and angels and neros conversation about columbian cooking. look at all the extra and supporting info i would have never learned.

Examples of things i learned due to your debate:

1.It has also been indicated that many reptiles when confronted with constipation or similar gut motility issues, and lacking dietary fibre in their food, will resort to eating substrate.
2. beef liver is rich in it, 100 grams of beef liver contains 27.0 mgs of Vitamin C
3.Good dietary sources of biotin include organ meats, such as beef liver, chicken livers, chicken gizzards, whole rodents and even egg yolk. It is not just found in fruit
4.tegus did consume fruit, but in the study it was almost all different types of dates. And not other types of soft fruit (Interesting!)
5.I have old tegus that are still reproducing and having fertile clutches of eggs. Some over 10 years old
6.vitamin C is necessary for the hydroxylation of proline
7.A good diet with cod liver oil will solve any constipation or similar gut motility issues, and would work better then fruit.
8.They take the bedding and cover it up if it is offered to them.(This would be funny to watch!)
9.Fitzgerald, has done just as much, if not more research than Abe on wild tegus. (now i want to learn more about abe and fitzgerald!)

see 9 things that i've learned above and beyond the original post. i love that bobby can come out and say fruit isn't nearly as important as people think, i wouldn't go so far to say it's a "Wasted" meal, i'd say it's an "optional" meal. as wasted would mean your tegu got nothing from it. that it's just as benificial as throwing it in the trash. the fruit is in the stomach, it's digested, and nutrient is taken from the meal. but the fact is some people stress on the fact that their tegu won't eat fruit. they think something is seriously wrong and i'd bet someone has even taken their tegu to the vet because it wasn't eating fruit. it's important for people to know fruit is an option. it's also important to know that their is healthy tegus out there that don't touch the stuff.

lol, just had to chime in with my laymans .02 cents.


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## angelrose (Jul 8, 2008)

Hi Kharnifex, (    ) colombians have rights :mrgreen: .


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## Kharnifex (Jul 8, 2008)

lol, if we're talking about your columbians not only do they have rights, but they're spoiled rotten as well!

i honestly don't know how you have time for 6 teiids! groxy alone is so demanding. i feel like i'm gonna be in over my head with this new hatchling. 

i better see pics of your new columbians when you get em!


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## DZLife (Jul 8, 2008)

I would like to state that it would be almost impossible to tell whether tegus eat fruit in the wild because they need it, or simply because they are a survivalist/opportunistic species, and it is simply what they found to eat. We all know that they are very active scavengers, so in order to determine whether the tegus actually sought out the fruit or whether they just ate it when they happen to come across it, extensive research would need to be conducted in a natural (or nature-simulated) setting in which there was plenty of meat as well as fruit, as to prove that they weren't ingesting the fruit because it was all that was available at the time.

Now, if someone managed to conduct the research on numerous individuals and the results were the same, one might be able to use the fact that they eat fruit in the wild as evidence in the argument defending fruit.


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## angelrose (Jul 8, 2008)

Kharnifex said:


> lol, if we're talking about your columbians not only do they have rights, but they're spoiled rotten as well!
> 
> i honestly don't know how you have time for 6 teiids! groxy alone is so demanding. i feel like i'm gonna be in over my head with this new hatchling.
> 
> i better see pics of your new columbians when you get em!



LMAO ! ahhhh, I just don't sleep. I'll show you pics of mine if you show me pics of yours :lol5


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## Kharnifex (Jul 9, 2008)

will do!!


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