# How terribly sad....



## AP27 (Mar 31, 2012)

So I was browsing around on the internet trying to identify a lizard skin belt my mom had obtained a long time ago (which is very sad, and I don't condone, it was simply something she actually found on the ground outside a swap meet one day and thought it was interesting), and while looking for what it was I was horrified to come across a boot maker that makes tegu skin boots, and just terribly saddened in general to learn that tegus are often killed for their hides and used to make various, utterly pointless accessories. I know their are many animals in the world killed to make stupid things like this, but it just horrified me to think of my beloved tegu as somebody's boot.


----------



## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 31, 2012)

Okay, not defending those who make boots or whatever, but do you eat meat? lol or fish?


----------



## AP27 (Mar 31, 2012)

Yes I do, but killing animals for food is different then killing them for pointless accessories. Food is a necessity, fancy lizard skin boots are not. 
...I had a lot to add to this but I don't want to start ranting.


----------



## james.w (Apr 1, 2012)

Meat is not a necessity. If you are against the use of animal hides you should be a vegan. Do you own anything that is leather?


----------



## AP27 (Apr 1, 2012)

No I don't. Look, I wasn't looking to start a debate on whether it's right or wrong or anything like that, I was just simply stating that it is sad to see an animal that I keep as a friend and companion turned into a boot.


----------



## Grendel (Apr 1, 2012)

Was gonna respond here, but found myself editing over and over....


----------



## grimz (Apr 1, 2012)

I agree not to start a debate but i would like to say meat is necessity it is a main part of food in a humans diet and a main part in a animals diet even our tegus eat meat just my view so lets not start a debate.


----------



## Aardbark (Apr 1, 2012)

"We taught a lion to eat tofu...."

I dont care if its biast, or hypocriical. I dont want to see any tegu or cute reptile skinned for its hide to make some crappy boots. That indeed makes me sad. And you dont have to justify what makes you sad. It just does.


----------



## RamblinRose (Apr 1, 2012)

Fact of life...The Tegu leathers are a product of S. America and are a way of life for the poor to make an income. They eat the meat and sell the hides to buyers who in turn make goods from the hides. Nothing is wasted this way.


----------



## HeatherN (Apr 1, 2012)

Yes for a long time, tegus were a main sorce of meat and hides for local people - like their version of cows or what have you. Now, just like we do with our food animals, tegus are bred enmass to feed and supply hides. Some people love cows, some people love tegus . Their treatment is reprehensible on both sides in the farms. I'd like them all to be farmed humanely, but I do love my meat. Simply observations/ opinions, not anything I ask other people to adopt or dispute!


----------



## james.w (Apr 1, 2012)

grimz said:


> I agree not to start a debate but i would like to say meat is necessity it is a main part of food in a humans diet and a main part in a animals diet even our tegus eat meat just my view so lets not start a debate.



I'll say it again, meat is not a necessity. Millions of people live long, healthy lifes as vegans. I understand some people need justify their eating of meat by saying it is necessary, but the fact remains it is not. I just find it a bit hypocritical that someone could find it ok to kill some animals for food, but not others.


----------



## BillieJeAn (Apr 1, 2012)

I eat meat, but I agree animals should not be killed JUST for their skin or to make things out of.
I feel like it is less sad to know that they do eat their meat to survive and then their skin is used. 

My Boyfriends parents are vegan and they live perfectly healthy lives and have some of the yummiest food i have ever tasted! so meat is not necessary, but it is good.


----------



## grimz (Apr 1, 2012)

If a person dont need meat what are you gonna feed your tegu i do not eat a whole lot of meat and i do think killikng animals for fashion is wrong but humans can survive with out meat even though meat is wanna one of the main diets in the food chain but still with out meat what are your meat eating animals gonna eat.


----------



## m3s4 (Apr 1, 2012)

I agree with the OP because I do find it sad. 

Do I eat meat? Yes. 
Do I eat tegu meat? No. 
Do I own reptile apparel? No. 
Do I find it sad tegus are used for apparel and food? Yes. 

However, I can't stop any of that from happening in S. America, or any other parts of the world. 

I can however, own a few as pets and find a little gratification knowing that my "pets" won't ever end up on someones boots or dinner plate. 

As long as I can give my tegus the best life possible, I'm content with that. I wish the same could be said for the countless number of other reptiles, including tegus, but that just isn't going to happen.


----------



## james.w (Apr 1, 2012)

grimz said:


> If a person dont need meat what are you gonna feed your tegu i do not eat a whole lot of meat and i do think killikng animals for fashion is wrong but humans can survive with out meat even though meat is wanna one of the main diets in the food chain but still with out meat what are your meat eating animals gonna eat.



If you are that concerned about the animals, how about not keeping them as pets for your enjoyment. Let them run wild in their natural habitat and you don't have to worry about what to feed them.


----------



## Grendel (Apr 1, 2012)

If you are that concerned about the animals, how about not keeping them as pets for your enjoyment. Let them run wild in their natural habitat and you don't have to worry about what to feed them.
[/quote]

Absolutely right , if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty, keeping wild animals as pets is the worst, no matter how much we justify in our minds that they are happy, and no matter how much we give them human emotions and characteristics.


----------



## grimz (Apr 1, 2012)

getting rid of my animals was taking it to far i am not getting rid of my animals i was just making my point and as for all of us we all have different beleifs you have yours i have mine end of story just like keeping reptiles different people have different ways of keeping reptiles now some just want to be cruel to them but there can be 1 great reptile keeper and another great reptile keeper even though there views are different.


----------



## james.w (Apr 1, 2012)

The problem is your point is pointless.


----------



## grimz (Apr 1, 2012)

No its not thats all i have to say on the subject im done with this thread.


----------



## AP27 (Apr 1, 2012)

How did this go from a simple statement that making animals into apparel is sad to being a bad animal keeper? James, telling someone their point is pointless is a tad rude and uncalled for, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I'm just trying to keep the peace here, I never intended this to start arguments, I just found something that I found sad about tegus, and seeing as this is a tegu forum and we love our pets, just thought to share my opinion, that is all. So please cease the arguing. This is a community forum where people are supposed to feel welcomed and share their thoughts on their beloved pets, not start arguments. That's all I have to say on this.


----------



## james.w (Apr 1, 2012)

AP27 said:


> How did this go from a simple statement that making animals into apparel is sad to being a bad animal keeper? James, telling someone their point is pointless is a tad rude and uncalled for, everyone's entitled to their own opinion. I'm just trying to keep the peace here, I never intended this to start arguments, I just found something that I found sad about tegus, and seeing as this is a tegu forum and we love our pets, just thought to share my opinion, that is all. So please cease the arguing. This is a community forum where people are supposed to feel welcomed and share their thoughts on their beloved pets, not start arguments. That's all I have to say on this.



His point was that meat is a necessity, which he later said it is not, but what would we feed our carnivorous pets. He couldn't back up his point, that was my point in saying what I said. Relax, its the internet.

As far as a forum being to share our thoughts, how come those of us who disagreed with you were automatically accused of arguing? Are we not allowed to share our opinions if they differ from yours?

I don't know where anyone was called or labeled a bad animal keeper in this thread. Can you please point that out?


----------



## Wil (Apr 1, 2012)

To be a vegan or vegetarian is a choice of lifestyle. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, I don't care one way or the other. For many countries meat is not only a necessity but deeply entrenched within their culture. So to say that it isn't necessary is a bit off base. One must remember that just because meat may not be needed to sustain life it doesn't make it any less important in many cultures. 

Also, I think many people lose sight that the "legal" skin trade is a way of life for these countries, many of which are below poverty. Who are we to say that it is wrong and that it should be abolished, is that not what P.E.T.A and the HSUS are doing to us as pet owners? Seems hypocritical to me.


----------



## james.w (Apr 1, 2012)

wil said:


> To be a vegan or vegetarian is a choice of lifestyle. I'm not saying it is right or wrong, I don't care one way or the other. For many countries meat is not only a necessity but deeply entrenched within their culture. So to say that it isn't necessary is a bit off base. One must remember that just because meat may not be needed to sustain life it doesn't make it any less important in many cultures.
> 
> Also, I think many people lose sight that the "legal" skin trade is a way of life for these countries, many of which are below poverty. Who are we to say that it is wrong and that it should be abolished, is that not what P.E.T.A and the HSUS are doing to us as pet owners? Seems hypocritical to me.



I agree whole heartedly with everything except that meat is a necessity. My point is that without meat everything could go on as it has been. Whether it is part of certain cultures or lifestyles is beside the point. 

Now I don't care either way if people eat meat or don't, wear fur or don't, keep wild animals as pets, etc. What bothers me is the hypocritical statements that have been made in this thread.


----------



## Dana C (Apr 1, 2012)

Meat may not be a necessary food but protein is. In many counties and locales soy protein is not available, and dairy products are scarce what is left is the necessity of eating meat of one sort or another. I have traveled in VERY poor countries and have seen the misery and muscular wasting that occurs. The people eat what ever they can to stay alive. If their diet includes dog, horse, goat, sheep, lizards, primates, birds, insects etc is because they must eat them. Even opportunistic carnivores like Tegus must have a meat based protein source period. 
We can get along on flora based proteins because we have the luxury of hitting the local grocery store for a bag of beans or tofu. We can buy fresh milk and cheese or scramble an egg for breakfast, ( if you are not completely off ovo / lacto foods). Many people can't. 
As an aside, out native American bretheren considered dog a great meal and the Louis and Clark expedition ate many meals of dog or anything else to stay alive.
I understand the feelings about eating Tegus and using tegu hides but I personally don't resent the people or expect them to stop. For many it is a major protein source and a source of money.
Life is what it is. Get used to it and get over it.


----------



## james.w (Apr 1, 2012)

You make a great point that I overlooked Dana. I guess I can just amend my point to say the in America meat is not a necessity.


----------



## grimz (Apr 1, 2012)

I know i said i was done with this thread but know i need to say one more thing i said it does have to be a necessity and i said it dont have to be well it dont have to be for some of us but for some us it does because of our carnivorous reptiles but the main thing that i am saying is it is a necessity to some of us because our reptiles eat meat and we need it or else they die i dont care feeding meat to my reptiles i dont like the fact of killing animals for sport or fashion but food is a different story.


----------



## james.w (Apr 1, 2012)

grimz said:


> I know i said i was done with this thread but know i need to say one more thing i said it does have to be a necessity and i said it dont have to be well it dont have to be for some of us but for some us it does because of our carnivorous reptiles but the main thing that i am saying is it is a necessity to some of us because our reptiles eat meat and we need it or else they die i dont care feeding meat to my reptiles i dont like the fact of killing animals for sport or fashion but food is a different story.



I understand what you are saying, although I don't agree. 

Why is it ok to kill an animal for food, but not ok for someone to make a living killing animals for skin/hide?


----------



## TeguBuzz (Apr 1, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX07j9SDFcc

^ I felt it was necessary.


----------



## grimz (Apr 1, 2012)

james i understand what you are saying to if depends on killing a animal for skin and hide to survive i can understand that what has to be done has to be done i cannot understand the fact that some people kill animals for sport just as a trophy others will kill a animal to sell skin when they dont really need the money there just trying to make extra money on the side like i said if it has to be done i can understand i just cant understand when it doesnt have to be done.


----------



## TegusRawsome80 (Apr 1, 2012)

No one kills tegus as trophies. And no one kills animals to sell skins just for fun, they do it because they need the money. The reason some don't seem to be living in poverty is because they sell those skins. Who kills animals for skins "on the side"? It's a part of life for the people who do it. It's easy for you and I to say oh that look's so cruel, but in reality this isn't any different from what we do to get leather for shoes, or meat for our burgers. There are farms for skinned reptiles where the reptiles are allowed quite a bit of land I would imagine, and if not there are few things worse than the way our country treats cattle. If you eat beef, or pork, or chicken you should watch the movie Food.Inc and then try to argue your point. And no, meat is not absolutely necessary for everyone who is commenting on this thread. I'm not saying it isn't for rural villagers, but it isn't for Americans in today's society. I fish and kill some of what I catch, and I can honestly say that I have no issue with it. I eat meat, and I don't have a problem with it, so it would be totally hypocritical for anyone who isn't a vegan to judge the people who kill animals for hides. We support the killing of animals just as much as they do.


----------



## Compnerd7 (Apr 1, 2012)

My father use to trap / hunt animals in Minnesota growing up, he sold the hides and ate the meat. He relied on the hides for money to live, and he relied on the meat to eat. TegusRawesome80 is right, most people don't skin animals on the side because it is a long process, and honestly being a tanner is a full time job ( I wouldn't say all don't because I do skin, cure, and tan the hides of the animals I hunt). I was raised with a strict motto "you eat what you kill" and I believe in that. I remember him once telling me a story of my grandfather who is long dead; after he shot a porcupine my grandfather made him eat it. He said it was the worst tasting thing that he ever ate haha. 

Today, my father, brother and I still go hunting for deer, elk, turkey, wild boar, and other things. We don't just do it for the fun of being in the woods, we genuinely love to eat what we hunt.

Also, Wildlife Fish and Game put out tags on certain animals because they are getting to densely populated in an area, and their numbers have to be regulated or else herds and certain species will starve to death (of course, this situation could be avoided if people didn't kill off their natural predators in the first place). Before Wolves were reintroduced in number up in the Yellowstone area, herds of elk and deer were dying of starvation because of a lack of natural predators. I believe it is more merciful to kill an animal like that then to let it starve; other then that reason, or because an animal is destructive (gophers eating my garden, wild boar undermining property) I see no reason to sport hunting.


----------



## m3s4 (Apr 2, 2012)

AP27 said:


> So I was browsing around on the internet trying to identify a lizard skin belt my mom had obtained a long time ago (which is very sad, and I don't condone, it was simply something she actually found on the ground outside a swap meet one day and thought it was interesting), and while looking for what it was I was horrified to come across a boot maker that makes tegu skin boots, and just terribly saddened in general to learn that tegus are often killed for their hides and used to make various, utterly pointless accessories. I know their are many animals in the world killed to make stupid things like this, but it just horrified me to think of my beloved tegu as somebody's boot.



How can a group of tegu enthusiasts derail a thread? Read this one and you'll find out. 

Holy F*ck. 

*Either you're affected by the fact people eat them and use their skins for apparel or you aren't. *

It isn't about justification. Do you get that? 

None of you HAS to smack a tegu on the head with a mallet and then skin it, gut it and eat it. I bet even though some of you think you're internet thug tough guys, and the coolest herps around, not one of you has what it takes to do it, either. 

Everyone of you has a fondness for a certain "pet" in life and it's total bullsh|t if you aren't affected in the slightest by the killing of them for whatever the reason may be. 

To deny that simple fact makes you look callous, arrogant, heartless and foolish.

We know the sh|t's a part of life. 

Admitting it sucks is, hrm what's the word, humane?


----------



## got10 (Apr 2, 2012)

this thread needs a nappy nap time her. Getting a bit grumpy


----------



## Compnerd7 (Apr 2, 2012)

m3s4 said:


> AP27 said:
> 
> 
> > So I was browsing around on the internet trying to identify a lizard skin belt my mom had obtained a long time ago (which is very sad, and I don't condone, it was simply something she actually found on the ground outside a swap meet one day and thought it was interesting), and while looking for what it was I was horrified to come across a boot maker that makes tegu skin boots, and just terribly saddened in general to learn that tegus are often killed for their hides and used to make various, utterly pointless accessories. I know their are many animals in the world killed to make stupid things like this, but it just horrified me to think of my beloved tegu as somebody's boot.
> ...



True that. It's not like they are wiping out an endangered species. Also, human beings get killed every day, and even though I love my animals a lot, A human life is worth more then an animals. I'd worry more about people getting slaughtered then animals we like being killed for a profit. As long as there is no inhumanity and torture, mankind has the right to harvest. 



Also, I love rattlesnakes but I have been looking for a healthy population of them to harvest one for myself ( If I can't find one on the side of the road already freshly dead ). I will skin it, and use the skin for my new herping hat band and attach the rattle and the head if I can get it preserved fast enough. If I have to kill one myself, I will also be cooking that meat up with some garlic rub, herbs, and butter.


----------



## Quartzyellowjacket (Apr 2, 2012)

*The ultimate solution *

Being a vegan may solve some problems, but the truth is, to grow the plants the vegans eat you take away animal habitat. Possible chance of destroying a percentage of a native food source, but since I love all animals so much I've made a solution lets figure out how to filter feed from the air so our animal buddies won't come into despair. But in all honesty folks, it sucks what some people do to things we define as pets and are forever sacred. How do you think people of the Hindu religion feel about Americans who slaughter thousands of cows a day, in Hinduism cows are a symbol of wealth. Heck even Krishna tended cattle. Now i'd like to believe James is playing devil's advocate for benefits of allowing people to learn to fully develop their opinions and have a determined place were they stand and if they have the facts to support themselves in an argument, so kudos to James. I'll restate my point, it sucks that it happens but some people cannot stand on a soapbox and talk on how much of a tragedy the mistreatment of wild and captive animals when they themselves withhold a small bit of information about how they consume meat, or that they keep animals. There, I tossed my two cents into the bucket.


----------



## james.w (Apr 2, 2012)

*RE: The ultimate solution *



Quartzyellowjacket said:


> Being a vegan may solve some problems, but the truth is, to grow the plants the vegans eat you take away animal habitat. Possible chance of destroying a percentage of a native food source, but since I love all animals so much I've made a solution lets figure out how to filter feed from the air so our animal buddies won't come into despair. But in all honesty folks, it sucks what some people do to things we define as pets and are forever sacred. How do you think people of the Hindu religion feel about Americans who slaughter thousands of cows a day, in Hinduism cows are a symbol of wealth. Heck even Krishna tended cattle. Now i'd like to believe James is playing devil's advocate for benefits of allowing people to learn to fully develop their opinions and have a determined place were they stand and if they have the facts to support themselves in an argument, so kudos to James. I'll restate my point, it sucks that it happens but some people cannot stand on a soapbox and talk on how much of a tragedy the mistreatment of wild and captive animals when they themselves withhold a small bit of information about how they consume meat, or that they keep animals. There, I tossed my two cents into the bucket.



Thank you


----------



## reptastic (Apr 2, 2012)

This is the way I view it, one mans pet may be anothers mans meal, like its been stated before we are accustomed to them as pets wereas in south america they are equalvilent to chickens, think about other parts of the world were dogs and cats may be the case, its no difference, as long as the whole animal is put to use I see no problem


----------



## turtlepunk (Apr 3, 2012)

james.w said:


> I'll say it again, meat is not a necessity. Millions of people live long, healthy lifes as vegans. I understand some people need justify their eating of meat by saying it is necessary, but the fact remains it is not. I just find it a bit hypocritical that someone could find it ok to kill some animals for food, but not others.



THANK YOU JAMES!!! stole the words right out of my mouth!!


----------



## Compnerd7 (Apr 3, 2012)

reptastic said:


> This is the way I view it, one mans pet may be anothers mans meal, like its been stated before we are accustomed to them as pets wereas in south america they are equalvilent to chickens, think about other parts of the world were dogs and cats may be the case, its no difference, as long as the whole animal is put to use I see no problem



I am pretty sure that I have eaten dog in Mexico... I also use to have a friend from Cambodia who always use to joke with me because he wanted to " wok my dog " haha. Back in his home country he ate dog all the time. I love dogs but I thought it perfectly reasonable for his culture. 

As long as you have a good balanced diet you can live a long and healthy life being vegan. I bet it's an ultra healthy life style, unfortunately it's a difficult and expensive life to live in today's society. I use to be a vegetarian for quite some time, I never felt better on that diet. Eventually I couldn't afford a good balanced diet anymore and it became near impossible to keep it going.


----------



## larissalurid (Apr 16, 2012)

TegusRawsome80 said:


> Okay, not defending those who make boots or whatever, but do you eat meat? lol or fish?



I agree with what the person starting the thread is saying, it's just horrible making so many reptiles and other animals into belts, purses, boots, bracelets, hats, etc. AGH. Horrific, it's just so sad. I think it's sad to kill any animal for any reason. I don't eat meat (which includes fish, don't understand why meat and fish or animals and fish are two different things to some people..?) and never have once in my life. I think it's so sad how the meat industry raises and kills. (nevermind the fact, but especially the process in how its done and how dirty and diseases most meat is, which i definitely know the truth about since my grandfather was a butcher which was just part of why my parents became vegetarians). but that's a whole other argument. Back to the topic, it's just sickening seeing millions of animals turned into accessories. 

I do like your point of where you are coming from though. (saying well don't you eat meat?) People say boo hoo look at this tegu that died because they are nice pets. Well people don't say boo hoo about their leather shoes, leather belts, coats, car seats, and all the other every day killed animals people wear. (or all the meat they eat)


----------



## TegusRawsome80 (Apr 16, 2012)

Some of your animals eat some form of meat in their food. Your dogs most likely eat dog food that comes from some sort of meat. Your tegu will eat many rats and mice and ground turkey and beef liver or whatever. That beef liver everyone feeds their tegus comes from places like Harris Ranch in Cali where the cows are abused and have no room to walk or do anything other than eat and poop. I don't know if you eat eggs but many eggs come from chickens kept in very inhumane situations which is possibly worse than killing them. I don't think it's fair that we judge people for doing what they have to to survive just because they kill an animal we keep as a pet. I also think it's hypocritical for us to keep them as pets and feel no sympathy for the animals their food came from.


----------



## larissalurid (Apr 17, 2012)

TegusRawsome80 said:


> Some of your animals eat some form of meat in their food. Your dogs most likely eat dog food that comes from some sort of meat. Your tegu will eat many rats and mice and ground turkey and beef liver or whatever. That beef liver everyone feeds their tegus comes from places like Harris Ranch in Cali where the cows are abused and have no room to walk or do anything other than eat and poop. I don't know if you eat eggs but many eggs come from chickens kept in very inhumane situations which is possibly worse than killing them. I don't think it's fair that we judge people for doing what they have to to survive just because they kill an animal we keep as a pet. I also think it's hypocritical for us to keep them as pets and feel no sympathy for the animals their food came from.



Yup I know all of this. I will never eat meat, but NO totally didn't realize animals do lmao. But I agree with the last line, it's really hard for me being an animal lover and vegetarian while having to feed a few of my pets meat since they'd die without it. I do feel great respect and very sad for those animals and even the bugs I keep as feeders that die to feed my animal. I wasn't telling anyone to become a vegetarian or anything so I don't know how this slightly just turned into an argument so I'm not coming back to this thread since I don't need any "drama", but I do know where the meat I feed, locally comes from, with the exception of the organic dog food I get. I know EXACTLY how so many animals are treated, raised, and killed and the quality of meats used, it's all extremely sad. like i said though, didn't mean to jump in the middle of some argument so just continue it without including me everyone. O.O sorry lol (p.s. i get eggs from my parents who raise some chickens)


----------



## frost (Apr 17, 2012)

i often wondered how people do gthe whole vegatarian thing. i dont think i could do it for long. if i dont have some form of animal meat i tend to get cranky. i do like a lot of vegitarian food tho, i eat humus on a weekly basis.


----------

