# Underground has some RedxBlue albinos



## Deac77 (Aug 1, 2012)

Underground just posted on Facebook pics of what just hatched out they look amazing 

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## kim86 (Aug 1, 2012)

Those are crazy looking! Would like to see them as adults.


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## agv0008 (Aug 1, 2012)

Aren't the albinos partially blind?


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## Deac77 (Aug 1, 2012)

Not always think they just hatched today so we will find out


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## Rhetoric (Aug 1, 2012)

Im interested to see how these turn out and how much they end up asking.


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## james.w (Aug 1, 2012)

Are they selling them ??


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## Quartzyellowjacket (Aug 1, 2012)

If they're selling all of them why not keep a few to breed? I'd be cool if 3/4 Blue and 1/4 Red Albinos became common.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Aug 1, 2012)

_Video's posted, they haven't said how many are available or a price yet.

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWzEjXdKfjA&feature=player_embedded[/video]_


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## Deac77 (Aug 1, 2012)

I bet they do keep a few but they are beautiful


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## Thelegendofcharlie (Aug 1, 2012)

Those guys look crazy.
I wonder what they'll look like when theyre older.


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## larissalurid (Aug 1, 2012)

I love albinos, but I feel so bad with the health problems they end up having.


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## james.w (Aug 1, 2012)

larissalurid said:


> I love albinos, but I feel so bad with the health problems they end up having.


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## bmx3000max (Aug 1, 2012)

feel bad, they look neat but dont think its worth it for the price of thier health


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## james.w (Aug 1, 2012)

What health problems do you guys think they have?


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## bmx3000max (Aug 1, 2012)

i cant post it for some reason on here but go to bobbys threads on albinisum, exsplains the whole thing


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## james.w (Aug 1, 2012)

I read the thread on albinism, but don't see any facts on health problems just opinions. Can you tell me what health problems they have that aren't opinion related, but fact?


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## frost (Aug 1, 2012)

i have to agree with ya james.


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## Deac77 (Aug 1, 2012)

And these where not bred to be albino it was random they didn't expect it


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Aug 1, 2012)

_Albinism is a health defect in itself, especially for animals that require UVB and or are active during the day. Defects that are degenerative over time with too much sun or even artificial light exposure.

Here are a few things to start reading and make your own decisions about it.

http://www.vmsherp.com/LCChromatophores.htm
http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/publications/volunteer/young_naturalists/albino_animals/albino_animals.pdf
http://www.arcadia-reptile.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/049_PRK_Dec-09.pdf_


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## TegusRawsome80 (Aug 1, 2012)

Bobby didn't prove anything in that thread and had absolutely no scientific proof. There is speculation that UVB bulbs cause blindness but no one has done any form of a study or anything like that. However, that hatchling looks rather frail to me. I doubt it has to do with the fact it is an albino though.


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## laurarfl (Aug 2, 2012)

Melanin protects the eyes from UVB. Damage from UVB exposure is a leading cause of cataracts. fact The reddish color of the eye is albinism is not a "color", but a lack of melanism, causing the color of blood vessels to show through. My friend Shawn Heflick has been able to produce albino alligators, but they do require protection from the sun. To pretend that albino animals are not light sensitive is just silly.


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## tommylee22 (Aug 2, 2012)

You really want to see health problems look at how they produce Albinio Tigers, thats sad. I get it if it's a freak of nature and it's cool. Just be sure that those that buy and or keep them do their homework as they aren't the same hardie animals as the normal animals. 

I wonder if they are light sinsitive how will they produce D3 and not develop MBD as they get older? I'm clueless when it comes to the albino reptiles that require UVB. I'm going to look into it thou.


here is a little threead around Albinos 
http://www.tegutalk.com/archive/index.php/thread-5198-2.html


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## Quartzyellowjacket (Aug 2, 2012)

tommylee22 said:


> You really want to see health problems look at how they produce Albinio Tigers, thats sad. I get it if it's a freak of nature and it's cool. Just be sure that those that buy and or keep them do their homework as they aren't the same hardie animals as the normal animals.
> 
> I wonder if they are light sinsitive how will they produce D3 and not develop MBD as they get older?



Well I thought that reptiles can also ingest D3 in forms like liver, cod liver oil, etc. although poor, a reptile can still attain D3


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## laurarfl (Aug 2, 2012)

It's the opposite. Animals with little to no melanin have decreased protection from UVB. UVB is what is used by the skin for Vit D synthesis. So they can utilize UVB for Vit D production and have no problems there, but need extra protection from "sunburn" (to put it loosely). In the case of the alligators, they are kept in a shaded enclosure and have algae growth on their skin. I would think these tegus would not be happy under a strong MVB.

It's not that albino animals are born blind and such, they just don't have the same eye and skin protection afforded by melanin so must be treated accordingly. It's the same concept in people. Those that are fair skinned and light eyed are much more light sensitive and prone to UV related damage. Those that spend a lot of time on the water/snow are more likely to develop cataracts. Very dark-skinned people living far from the equator need more Vit D supplements.


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## james.w (Aug 2, 2012)

I understand the sensitivity in the eyes/skin, but that isn't a health problem. If kept correctly they will have no problems. NERD produces albino water monitors and has healthy adults. Tegus can be kept without UVB, the same way a monitor can. Don't believe everything you read.


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## bmx3000max (Aug 2, 2012)

just wondering how do you keep a tegu without uvb?


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## james.w (Aug 2, 2012)

Feed it whole prey, same way you keep monitors without UVB. 



If you don't know what you are doing, don't try it. I won't be responsible for your tegus health.


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## Jan Paul (Aug 2, 2012)

Albino is a genetic loss of pigment, multiple inbreeding with blood relativs can weakening occur, isolated populations like the Bleu's in Brazil are a good example of this ( I think thats why they already give albino's in captivity after a few generations?) . There are no health problems elsewhere i think (ore they are should arise by other factors), only with the pigment. They have certainly uvb needed and this is not just to solve with nutrition. Good uvb issuance is not bad, but the UV index must be low. So a strong UVB lamp hanging higher as normal so the UV index gets lower but the UVB still touches the ground, pigment is like a sunglasses. Only now the sunglas UV resistants is verry low, thats why the eyes can get a type of las eyes ore temporary cataracts. Also the UV index gets verry quik to strong and can cause much damage. The index is like how far the UVB radiation comes.....

I think it is a wonderful animal


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## tommylee22 (Aug 2, 2012)

It hasn't been proven that the animal can gain D3 thru the stomach some say they can’t and I believe that Bobby has a video on YouTube showing a really bad case where the owner only gave D3 supplement not utilizing actual UVB lighting. MBD was really bad...



Quartzyellowjacket said:


> tommylee22 said:
> 
> 
> > You really want to see health problems look at how they produce Albinio Tigers, thats sad. I get it if it's a freak of nature and it's cool. Just be sure that those that buy and or keep them do their homework as they aren't the same hardie animals as the normal animals.
> ...


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## james.w (Aug 2, 2012)

Tommy how would you explain monitors that don't receive uvb, but can thrive and reproduce. I am not talking about using D3 supplements either, rather feeding while prey to get the proper nutrients. 

Jan Paul. Do you have any facts proving that uvb bulbs are required and the animal cannot receive what it needs through its diet??


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## Skeetzy (Aug 2, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rxhuuIcnTA

Bobby's video on only supplementing D3. But theres no way of proving that this animal even had a good diet with a good amount of D3 supplementation. It could've been living off of crickets with d3 powder for all we know.

I wouldn't try it myself, but I'm sure a very proper whole prey diet, with plenty of calcium/d3 supplements, would allow these animals to progress and grow properly.


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## jwyo (Aug 2, 2012)

I had a conversation with a local breeder of uromastyx, that had been testing the theory that without placement by a UVA/bright light UVB could indeed damage they eye. The base theory was that without the correct light levels the eye does not dialate properly to shield the eye from damage. Thus he stipulated that the basking spot was where the UVB had to be place.


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## tommylee22 (Aug 2, 2012)

james.w said:


> I read the thread on albinism, but don't see any facts on health problems just opinions. Can you tell me what health problems they have that aren't opinion related, but fact?



If you google any animal including humans that's albino there is huge risks in them going blind due to exposure to UV and development of cataracts, Reptiles will actually burn and blister as they have no way of protecting themselves from the rays. It works in snakes and lets say nocturnal reptiles. It's very hard in those that require UVB.. Kinda of a the thing that keeps you thriving is the very thing that can harm you.


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## Bntegus (Aug 2, 2012)

i love to read this stuff james most people believe bobby about stuff like albinos and uv i have had albino tegus and not albinos for 14 years and almost never use uv lights and i have always feed whole pray and nothing else oh and some fruit lol wheres dana he will right a book about all this lol


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## james.w (Aug 2, 2012)

But tegus and monitors can be kept without UVB, so they can be kept without risk of burning/blistering therefore no health risk.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Aug 2, 2012)

Hahaha well according to many feeding whole prey is unhealthy and unnatural and ground turkey is better as a staple. Anyways, I know quite a few people who keep monitors and tegus successfully without UVB...


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Aug 2, 2012)

_Lots of hear say but no references, just like any other argument you'll find some that will agree and disagree which reptiles can live a healthy and productive life with/without UVB. If only UVB was the only issue for albinos, it's bright lights and sun exposure UVA/B doesn't matter. Long periods of high exposure to either one will cause health issues. _


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## james.w (Aug 2, 2012)

Here is a healthy albino monitor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDYQ0OBdQYI


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## Bntegus (Aug 2, 2012)

Bubblz Calhoun said:


> _Lots of hear say but no references, just like any other argument you'll find some that will agree and disagree which reptiles can live a healthy and productive life with/without UVB. If only UVB was the only issue for albinos, it's bright lights and sun exposure UVA/B doesn't matter. Long periods of high exposure to either one will cause health issues. _



hear say is the number one problem. if i showed everyone feed cards of tegus that are 12 or 14 yeas old and have only had whole prey and no uv they still would have something to say. if they are taken care of right then you wont have problems. there is a lot of people on this web site that have good advice but no one lessons it takes time to learn what is right and wrong with tegus and monitors.


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## Thelegendofcharlie (Aug 2, 2012)

Not daring to throw a solid opinion in on this one
but I think the issue of albinism/health issues/uv should be thoroughly explored before the aquisition of one of these "special" guys.


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Aug 2, 2012)

Thelegendofcharlie said:


> Not daring to throw a solid opinion in on this one
> but I think the issue of albinism/health issues/uv should be thoroughly explored before the aquisition of one of these "special" guys.



_Which is why I said earlier here is some information to start reading and make your own decisions. 

Albinism is a health defect. Is it one that can be managed yes but how many people know that or even bother to find out how to properly care for most pets let alone albinos.

@ James the video has been posted before, they give no info what so ever about how they are kept so it's misleading. In the video as well as some others they have you can see that every one of them are kept in low lighting. Low lighting doesn't affect their sight or skin, which would rule out skin issues. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still a defect that can lead to other issues. Take them outside or even some where with brighter light and see how their sight changes. Which also refers back to what I previously said, long periods of high exposure to either one (uva/b, bright light or the sun) will cause health issues._


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## Bntegus (Aug 2, 2012)

Bubblz Calhoun said:


> Thelegendofcharlie said:
> 
> 
> > Not daring to throw a solid opinion in on this one
> ...



i think its wrong im on your side that is why i stopped breeding them. i got them to make money and i did i have a very large collection from albinos. has for the waters the are keeped the same way i keep my stock or normal waters lol Kevin knows hes **** and he has no problems but we are talking about two diff animals.


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## AP27 (Aug 2, 2012)

Now, to achieve an animal that is 3/4 blue, and 1/4 red albino, wouldn't there have to be a 50/50 blue/red albino of breeding age already in existence? Because in order to get the 3/4 to 1/2 ratio you would have to breed the 50/50 offspring with another blue, correct? I've never seen an animal like this, but there should be an idea of what they would look like in adulthood already in one of the parents.


And if that's the case then why go 75/25? why not just leave it a 50/50 I wonder?


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## frost (Aug 2, 2012)

hmm good discussions going on here.when i saw this had 40 something comments i figured you guys would be raging again. but i will prolly get one of those if i ever get the money. i love albinism,its one of my favorite mutations. and i have a thing for the color white and red. i just cant help myself.=]


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## Thelegendofcharlie (Aug 3, 2012)

Bubblz Calhoun said:


> Thelegendofcharlie said:
> 
> 
> > Not daring to throw a solid opinion in on this one
> ...


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## Jan Paul (Aug 3, 2012)

Jan Paul. Do you have any facts proving that uvb bulbs are required and the animal cannot receive what it needs through its diet??

Read more: http://www.tegutalk.com/showthread.php?tid=12090&page=2#ixzz22T53ebCP

Look arround, and the difference is not difficult to find out. I do not know how it is with you guys in the USA, but here in this country where the winters are very dark ( Yes, i know not why I am gone back to this land?  ) and so we really depend on lamps . Is the technique develops higher or more generally in use by people.... I see a difference in 20 years and that is huge, and thats not because of the D3 suplements because that is one of the oldest ways to keep these animals. More sick animals offered held on D3 the last 40 years, and the good of course used often natural sunlight ore the old Osram mercury arc lamps..... The big difference is now mainly to see by hobbyist on the internet who the knowledge sharing and use from others, This is why the hobby in our country to divide in two. 1 use good UVB lamps, and the others group who is verry simple in keeping of reptiles and go to the first pet store they see who always advise from a financial point of view. So they buy D3 suplements becouse thats good enough and use mostly exo terra energy saving lamps, in this group you see only sick animals. And the other group just wonderful healthy animals...... Is that fact not enough?

For example, We can speak of facts by the keeping of animals and how we need to tam this species, ore keep them..... But 20 years seeing large differences we needed to have studies to believe that....And the most interesting thing is, we know without any study about this that Monitors doing well without UVB.

This is what we can say for a fact:

Sunlight: Good healty animals
Good UVB lamps with high index: Good healty animals
D3 suplements: Very small percentage of healthy animals

and all this on a good diet.


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## laurarfl (Aug 3, 2012)

You tube videos are not proof of anything. That particular animal that Bobby posted may have had a calcium poor diet and great D3 supplementation. Without calcium, all the Vit D short of an overdose will not prevent MBD.

Studies and facts for those who have not already seen them:

Regarding dietary Vit D
http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20103230517.html;jsessionid=78A032E010E4F09282E6B8CD3A90BBD3

http://si-pddr.si.edu/jspui/bitstream/10088/11130/1/Allen1995.pdf



http://www.antibodysystems.com/dragon.pdf
"Dietary vitamin D3 levels were not done for wild or captive specimens. However, apparently dietary sources did not provide enough vitamin D3 for captive Komodo dragons to elevate 25[OH]D3 blood levels comparable to those of wild specimens even with whole mammal, bird, or fish items usually offered."
"It appears that Komodo dragons absorb vitamin D3 orally. Three Komodo dragons without any UVB source have maintained blood levels between 100 and 330 nmol/L vitamin D3 during a 6- to 12-month period. Specimens were maintained on a whole animal diet as well as approximately 3,000 IU vitamin D3/kg dietary dry matter [R. Burns, unpublished data; D. Gillespie, unpublished data]. This route of supplementation may result in hypo- or hypervitaminosis D3. Sunlight by direct exposure or through UV-permeable acrylic roof panels avoids this problem because natural biosynthesis is thought to be self-regulating [Ullrey and Bernard, 1999]. Sunlight also provides UVA wavelengths, thought to be important in inducing many behaviors and other factors not understood at this time [Frye, 1991]. Indoor lamps should be used as supplemental UVB sources when changing husbandry situations dictate"

How much UVB do reptiles need?
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/whatreptilesneed.htm

Merck Veterinary Manual:
"Vitamin D and Ultraviolet Light:
Most vertebrates can either absorb vitamin D from the diet or synthesize it in the skin from 7-dehydrocholesterol using energy from ultraviolet (UV) light of certain wavelengths (290-315 nm) in a temperature-dependent reaction. Thus, vitamin D is required in the diet only when endogenous synthesis is inadequate, as develops when animals are not exposed to UV light of appropriate wavelengths. Many captive basking species appear susceptible to rickets or osteomalacia. Bone fractures, soft-tissue mineralization, renal complications, and tetany can develop. Reptiles frequently show few premonitory signs, although lethargy, inappetence, and reluctance to move are commonly reported. Serum calcium concentrations may not be diagnostically useful. Supplementation with injectable calcium and vitamin D may provide some short-term relief. However, exposure to UV light, or lack of it, may be an important, yet often overlooked, factor in the differential diagnosis. Complicating the diagnosis may be soft-tissue mineralization, seen radiographically or at necropsy.
In green iguanas, metastatic calcification may not result from vitamin D toxicity. Iguanas with both fractured bones and extremely low or undetectable levels of circulating 25-hydroxycholecalciferol also had calcified soft tissues. The etiology of the metastatic calcification is not understood and is contrary to conventional understanding of the signs of vitamin D deficiency and toxicity in domestic species. Dietary sources of vitamin D may not be sufficient to prevent rickets and osteomalacia. Diets with as much as 3,000 IU vitamin D3/kg did not prevent bone fractures and cortical thinning in green iguanas. Weak UV bulbs placed over the lizards at ~12-18 in. for 12 hr/day appeared to reverse the signs in the least severely affected lizards. Because some lizards seek a warm spot to increase body temperature, placement of the warming bulb, usually incandescent, adjacent to a UV bulb helps ensure adequate exposure to UV light. Exposure to unfiltered natural sunlight during warmer months and use of UV bulbs during the rest of the year usually eliminates the risk of bone disease caused by insufficient absorption of calcium (due to a vitamin D deficiency).
Some lizard species may be unable to absorb sufficient dietary vitamin D3, although the reason is poorly understood. New World primates are believed to have exceptionally high dietary requirements for vitamin D, which may be related to lower numbers of vitamin D cellular receptors than are present in Old World primates. Similar metabolic differences may exist in some basking lizard species, although this has not been established. UV bulbs are sold in pet stores, but label claims may not be reliable. Enlisting the assistance of a specialist is advised because there is no ideal UV bulb"


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## Deac77 (Aug 3, 2012)

Not to interrupt this fight but they also hatched this thing! Forget the albino I want this!!

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## laurarfl (Aug 3, 2012)

I didn't think anyone was fighting, just posting information. It's just like hybrids in general, some people like them and some people don't. Some like albinos and some don't. But potential owners should be properly informed to make educated decisions about husbandry and such.


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## bonedoc (Aug 4, 2012)

laurarfl said:


> Melanin protects the eyes from UVB. Damage from UVB exposure is a leading cause of cataracts. fact The reddish color of the eye is albinism is not a "color", but a lack of melanism, causing the color of blood vessels to show through. My friend Shawn Heflick has been able to produce albino alligators, but they do require protection from the sun. To pretend that albino animals are not light sensitive is just silly.



Correct, Albinism is a lack of pigment and can happen in any animal. This does allow the red of blood vessels to show through and removes the animal 'nature' protection from the sun. Blindness and skin cancer are very real for albinos and alot of that is due to the damage from the sun because of the lack of protective pigment.



laurarfl said:


> You tube videos are not proof of anything. That particular animal that Bobby posted may have had a calcium poor diet and great D3 supplementation. Without calcium, all the Vit D short of an overdose will not prevent MBD.
> 
> Studies and facts for those who have not already seen them:
> 
> ...



Correct again. You have to have all the pieces of the puzzle. So if an animal is missing one they could have literally an overdose load of the other and still end up with MBD. All of this is known information but even recently is just being applied. in Humans, MBD would be Rickets. We are actually seeing a resurgence of Rickets in children. Why, how could that be with all of our Calcium fortified foods, enriched with D3, etc. Well we have become so crazy of avoiding sun exposure and kids are not playing outside enough that they are getting the exposure needed for their bodies to synthesize the Vitamin D.


There are no major health problems for albinos that are different from others except for those related to exposure damage to the sun. As stated by a previous poster issues can be managed but ultimately it is up to the owner to make sure they are educated on the needs and proper husbandry.


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## laurarfl (Aug 4, 2012)

Just to be off-topic...I think the resurgence of rickets is a combination of being indoors too much, slathering with sunscreen when we are outdoors, and phosphoric acid from massive soda consumption. Same with lizards...dietary issues with Ca: P and UVB/Vit D


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## tommylee22 (Aug 4, 2012)

The way I see it I have 3 questions on these albinos,
1) Do they deed UVA/UVB to thrive?
2) Is it not a fact that in albino animals of any sort bright UV lighting causes blindness and cataracts?
3) Has it been proven that reptiles that need sun/UVA/B overhead to bask in able to absorb any D3 supplement thru their internal stomicks?


IF so there is your health problem and or high risk health issues over a non albino


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## bonedoc (Aug 4, 2012)

laurarfl said:


> Just to be off-topic...I think the resurgence of rickets is a combination of being indoors too much, slathering with sunscreen when we are outdoors, and phosphoric acid from massive soda consumption. Same with lizards...dietary issues with Ca: P and UVB/Vit D



Correct which is essentially what I meant by avoiding sun exposure and not playing outside. You bring up soda consumption. This too is a huge problem because for our bodies to eliminate the excess phosphoric acid it must be neutralized first, which ends up leaching calcium from our bodies.


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## Logie_Bear (Aug 4, 2012)

There's also the albino iggys. Tom has been breeding albino iguanas for years now, and those lizards are kept in outdoor enclosures and apper to do just fine


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## james.w (Aug 4, 2012)

@Tommy

1. No
2. No
3. No.


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## laurarfl (Aug 5, 2012)

tommylee22 said:


> The way I see it I have 3 questions on these albinos,
> 1) Do they deed UVA/UVB to thrive?
> 2) Is it not a fact that in albino animals of any sort bright UV lighting causes blindness and cataracts?
> 3) Has it been proven that reptiles that need sun/UVA/B overhead to bask in able to absorb any D3 supplement thru their internal stomicks?
> ...



1. No true studies have been done so no scientifically accurate answer can be given.
2. http://www.eyewisevision.com.sg/services_cataract.htm albinism and eye issues
3. The forms of vitamin D synthesized from the skin and that absorbed from the diet are different precursors. UVB works with the skin, but has nothing to do with intestinal absorption. The question has always been how effective is intestinal absorption of the dietary precursor as compared to the form that is naturally formed by the skin in the presence of UVB.

I think the fair statement to make with the recent breeding of albino diurnal lizards is that it is new territory with many uncertainties. Can anyone really claim that everything is fine or that everything is awful with confidence? I would be most willing to listen to the person who acknowledges the positive and negative and strives to provide the best husbandry possible.


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## got10 (Aug 5, 2012)

I have been sitting this one out for a while just wondering why there is still debate over Uv light for the tegus(albinos). I keep mine under mercury lamps in the house and when weather permitting ,they stay outside. To each their own. If you want to take care of your animal as if was worth more a "COOL PET" and more like a personal investment , living breathing animal. Just purchase a damned uv a/b bulb . I for one have NEVER seen any animals kept under lamps or sunlight that developed any type of calcium deficits. BUT one the other hand have seen MANY tegus Iggys beardies and chameleons come through the rescues Ive dealt with all messed up from LACK of UV bulbs . Is your choice and your animal . If you don't trust the effectiveness of the bulbs . take your animal out in the sun for about an hour in the sun
The only thing I would see is the problem with albino gators they dont thrive very well without uv light



laurarfl said:


> I didn't think anyone was fighting, just posting information. It's just like hybrids in general, some people like them and some people don't. Some like albinos and some don't. But potential owners should be properly informed to make educated decisions about husbandry and such.



agreed


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## Bubblz Calhoun (Aug 5, 2012)

_What some people fail to mention or even think about, is that these days a lot of reptiles are taken outside, kept and or have access to outdoor pins. Therefore receiving UV, even some diurnal animals get UV when they come out at dawn or dusk. _


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## laurarfl (Aug 6, 2012)

That's part of the being informed issue....and I agree: provide a UVB source, but subdued. Maybe these guys will not appreciate a MegaRay, but some shaded natural sunlight may be approrpriate. In the case of the alligators, they are kept outside in a shaded area with algae growth on their backs. They are thriving and reproducing. They look great! Shawn is no slouch when it comes to crocodilians and is an expert wildlife biologist.


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