# How big are Chacoan Tegus?



## J.A. (Jan 1, 2014)

I was wondering how big Chacoan Tegus get. Are females smaller than males? If so, by how much? How much time until they are at adult size? What size enclosure? What if it was free roaming in my house, would it still need an enclosure? How could I keep it humid?
Lots of questions but all posts are much appreciated, thanks.


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## Marcvptegu (Jan 1, 2014)

Well I'm not a specialist. But I do have a year old chacoan female. They are the biggest of the tegu species. Males get bigger then females. Males get around 4 to 5 feet and females around 4 feet as an adult. My female at a year old is about 2 ft nose to tail tip. Around 3 and 4 years they seem to not get longer just fatter. I do let me Tegus free roam my whole house. They still have an enclosure in doors and out doors for when I'm not home. Or time for them to sleep.


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## J.A. (Jan 2, 2014)

Thanks for the reply!


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## KritterKeeper (Jan 2, 2014)

Just wanted to add that even though you should give your tegu free roam time it needs to have a proper(and properly sized) enclosure..8'x4' is the minimum i believe but bigger is always better. If you want a healthy animal you cant just let it wander your house. You cannot give it the humidity it needs in your house w/o destroying your house. Also even though they do take alittle while to reach adult size its usually faster than people expect so you should be ready to build the adult cage pretty much right away so you dont end up w/ a large tegu living in a tiny cage for any amount of time..


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## TegusRawsome80 (Jan 2, 2014)

Chacoans are NOT a species, they are merely a locality of Black and Whites. This being said, they achieve the same lengths as other tegu species. 5 feet is rare, but happens in all the species occasionally in males. 4 feet is not an accurate average for females. My female "Chacoan" is an adult and about 3 feet long. And 8x4 is a good cage size. You don't need 4 feet of height however, just width. Height I recommend 2.5 feet to allow for proper basking temps.


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## Roadkill (Jan 2, 2014)

I would say they aren't even a locality, just a name Bobby Hill tacked onto a "morph" he claims he produced.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Jan 2, 2014)

I would agree but to avoid conflict I generally say they're a locality lol. People refuse to believe they overpaid for an identical animal to the cheaper one.


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## Roadkill (Jan 2, 2014)

I won't even do that. It's about time people wake up to what they're paying for. Mr. Hill had never been to South America, there are no documented "locality" types for any tegu, and it's hilarious when people start balking about someone coming up with a new name for something when that's all that has ever been done with these various morphs.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Jan 2, 2014)

I think there's a legitimate case for blues being considered at least a different animal in the sales market but chacoans are the same as black and whites.


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## Roadkill (Jan 3, 2014)

I both agree and disagree. I do think all the "morphs" have a distinctiveness, and yes the blues as well. However, there are some very strong arguments against the names: when I have asked repeatedly for people to make a character list of what makes a blue (or other morph) a blue, generally no one speaks up. NO ONE will provide a comprehensive and complete list of character traits of what makes it that morph, or characters that if present/absent says it can't be that morph. Therefore, it is a subjective argument. Then there's the case of over in Europe where someone (Renske I believe) produced melanistic blues. Without a doubt, without providence, no one would accept those as blues if they encountered them 'in a vacuum'. And yet because they are clearly the offspring of what one would not argue against being both blue parents, it opens another conundrum. Without pedigree/providence, without being able to describe what a blue/Chacoan/etc. actually is definitively, then the whole thing becomes moot. As long as people can pick and choose the characters without need of pedigree, then ALL tegus either are or are not blues/Chacoans/purple people eaters/what-have-you.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Jan 4, 2014)

Burnt nose, blue/light turqoiseish coloration, smaller size(in US), not as heavy weight wise. Every blue I've seen has been incredibly distinctive from black and whites. I think the European Blues are from a different area, as they achieve different sizes and coloration is different also.


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## Roadkill (Jan 4, 2014)

I find it interesting that you first say they are incredibly distinctive, and then point out how the US and European ones are different. Ok, so according to what you've posted, no burnt nose = not a blue, if it is larger = not a blue (what is the cut off size? this is subjective), if it has a greater girth = not a blue (what is the cut off weight? again, subjective). I'm pretty sure there are a lot of blue owners that would disagree with you. I would point out right away that blue/light turquoise colouration is highly subjective right off. On what scale do we use? Hue? Grey scale? By what you've presented, I gather you would then say that the case of the melanistic blues means they no longer qualify as blues? I would also point that whereas you have a belief that the traits of a blue are from a specific location, that those traits can be found in populations all over South America, just not perhaps all traits at once - does this qualify them as part-blue?


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## TegusRawsome80 (Jan 5, 2014)

No, melanism is a genetic trait it doesn't disqualify them as blues, it merely makes them a "morph" just like albinos or any other "morph". And I guarantee if you gave me a line up of ten USCB "blues" and ten USCB "black and whites" I could definitely pick them out as such. They are distinctively different. I've yet to see a USCB blue over 4 feet. My male, fed the same amount as my other tegus, is only a bit over 3 feet and not growing a ton anymore. They're also leaner GENERALLY. There are exceptions, ie overfeeding, low temps will cause "girthy" blues but their bodies look like they're sleeker. There is a distinctive difference in every blue that I've seen. Not the same for Chacoans, which sometimes look the exact same imho.


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## tommylee22 (Jan 21, 2014)

I will say my Extreme "Bobby Hill" looks nothing like a normal B&W and is huge! They are like the crockadile vs the Alagator. they have longer noses much more white in them and well they get huge fast.. also the eggs are much larger.

T


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## TeguBuzz (Jan 21, 2014)

Chacoan = Black and white, as Austin and Roadkill have made clear. It is nothing more than a marketing ploy to take more of your money. They are not the largest of the "tegu species", by any means, due to the fact that as stated above, they are not their own species. I have seen many reds outgrow your average black and white, as well as "ordinary" black and whites outgrow your so called "Chacoans". 

Sorry for being so direct, but it's the truth.


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## J.A. (Jan 21, 2014)

Thank you all for the info.


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## tommylee22 (Jan 29, 2014)

Not true they look so dif., head, size of eggs, whiter in coloration.. Would be like saying a Colombian is the same as a black & white


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## TeguBuzz (Jan 29, 2014)

tommylee22 said:


> Not true they look so dif., head, size of eggs, whiter in coloration.. Would be like saying a Colombian is the same as a black & white


No. Colombians and Argentine b/w's can't be used as a comparison like b/w's and "chacoans/extremes". Face it, your tegu is just another black and white with high whites (if that), that has been selectively bred.

You're just reciting and spewing out, almost word for word, things that Bobby Hill use to tell his customers. Chacoans, extremes, blonde, platinum, powder blue , firebelly, and whatever else is used are all marketing tactics. At the end of the days your "chacoan/extreme" is just an ordinary Tumpinamis merianae or Salvator merianae (whichever one it is now). It is true fact, face it and move on.


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## Roadkill (Jan 29, 2014)

TeguBuzz, I would say the issue revolves around what people want to see. If I didn't know any better, and I listened to someone supposedly more knowledgeable than I on what "the situation is", accepted this and dropped a sizable investment into that belief, I'd probably be reluctant to let go of that belief. This is pretty much what we see in these situations, an adherence to an ideal, and reluctance to let go of that ideal. It's been over 10 years since I was first made aware of the "blues are a new species" claim, and despite the fact that I dug into the issue, have repeatedly shown where so much of the idea of blues is nothing but conjecture from a few people who didn't know what they were talking about in the first place, it is an idea that still sticks. It is a testament to the power of an idea and the passion of people who want to believe. The St. Pierre's are no longer major players in the tegu community, and yet their creation of the blue ideal still persists to this day despite the evidence presented of their inexperience. Same goes for Bobby Hill's legacy. Add in the fact that it is almost impossible to get coherent and complete information about actual wild tegus, and it only fuels the fanaticism of the belief. Basically, we're struggling against a religion, and look at how powerful religions can get even in the face of concrete evidence to the contrary.


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## tommylee22 (Jan 29, 2014)

TeguBuzz said:


> No. Colombians and Argentine b/w's can't be used as a comparison like b/w's and "chacoans/extremes". Face it, your tegu is just another black and white with high whites (if that), that has been selectively bred.
> 
> You're just reciting and spewing out, almost word for word, things that Bobby Hill use to tell his customers. Chacoans, extremes, blonde, platinum, powder blue , firebelly, and whatever else is used are all marketing tactics. At the end of the days your "chacoan/extreme" is just an ordinary Tumpinamis merianae or Salvator merianae (whichever one it is now). It is true fact, face it and move on.


 


Ok Tegu Buzz, please explain the head shape difference, the egg size difference, why all have dif. scale patterns on head than regular B&W? Why are they much quicker growers (not saying they are bigger than any) but they do have the potential to outgrow if properly fed and cared for any regular B&W. They are Dif. I researched them for a year before I purchased mine. If they aren’t then they are def. the Arnold Schwarzenegger of the Black & Whites.


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## TeguBuzz (Jan 29, 2014)

@tommylee22 I have no time to go back and forth with someone who isn't seeing the bigger picture. They are BOTH one and the same. You did your research for a year? From who, Bobby Hill? Keep believing what you want. I have dealt with both "extremes" from Bobby which I had myself, as well as his black and whites. You don't need to explain to me what Bobby ranted on about for years, I'm well aware. Done with this before it escalates any further.

@Roadkill I agree with you, some people have just listened to nonsense for too long and refuse to accept the reality.


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## tommylee22 (Jan 29, 2014)

TeguBuzz said:


> @tommylee22 I have no time to go back and forth with someone who isn't seeing the bigger picture. They are BOTH one and the same. You did your research for a year? From who, Bobby Hill? Keep believing what you want. I have dealt with both "extremes" from Bobby which I had myself, as well as his black and whites. You don't need to explain to me what Bobby ranted on about for years, I'm well aware. Done with this before it escalates any further.
> 
> @Roadkill I agree with you, some people have just listened to nonsense for too long and refuse to accept the reality.


 

I don't think this has become anything about Taegu’s just more about Bobby Hill... I just asked you to explain why they look so dif. I can except that they may be the same species I'm just claiming based on my research an visual comparison that they are dif. why that is I would like to know if they are the same. Selective Breeding? maybe and if so let’s call them the "Premium" breed B&W's whatever... They are nicer looking an you know a "Bobby Hill" Extreme when you see one.


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## Roadkill (Jan 29, 2014)

As the person insisting there is a difference, then you are charged with spelling it out. And I do mean spelling it out. You say they're different, then describe accurately exactly what those differences are. None of this "the scales on the head are different", a true, descriptive write up like "prefrontals are longer than wide (~1.5X) with a narrower anterior margin than the caudal margin". For BOTH groups.


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## Deac77 (Jan 29, 2014)

What do you think of my male then tommy? Would you call hola extreme?


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## Roadkill (Jan 30, 2014)

Deac77, that's a great looking tegu with a lot of white and good black definition of the scale delineations. However, here is the issue with "is this an extreme?" : people have this ideal of what an extreme is, that an extreme has a certain set of characteristics. This set of characteristics was "established" by Bobby Hill. Bobby Hill has proven to be a liar, a scammer, and extremely ignorant of tegus; meaning any claim from Mr. Hill is highly suspect to say the least. Next, we have seen cases here on this site where people have done much as you are now, posted a picture and asked if what they had was an extreme, not only that but also stating that the tegu in question was sold to them as an extreme by none other than Bobby Hill himself. And people have concluded "no, that is not an extreme".
So where does this leave us? Given that these cases are genuine (ie. these people are telling the truth, that these tegus were indeed sold to them by Bobby Hill as extremes) that leaves us with:
1)Providence and pedigree mean nothing. We can breed an extreme to another extreme, and if the offspring doesn't look a certain way, we can't call those offspring extremes. I doubt people would accept this statement, but this is what they are doing. Likewise, if the "originator" of the line says it is something, and others later say no it isn't, it calls into question the validity of the line - ie. the description given of the set of characteristics doesn't reflect the reality of what they are, and therefore it is inaccurate, a false.
2)The claims of the originator are false. Whether through deliberate deception or innocent ignorance, this means that if some claims pertaining to the characteristics of the line in question are not to be trusted because of the originator, then the whole claim must likewise be suspect. This is not to say Bobby Hill wasn't capable of telling the truth at times, it is just saying given the frequency of his falsehoods, the idea that Extremes are a true lineage derived solely by him and have a strict set of characteristics, only has a fraction of a chance of being true, it cannot be trusted.

Given these facts, it means you can call your tegu an Extreme and be right. Someone else can say "no, it isn't" and be equally right. If both of you can be right in giving contradictory statements of such direct nature (ie. a yes or no, no peripheral arguments), then it basically means any claim is moot. The name only has meaning if you choose to give it meaning, not because it actually means anything in reality.


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## Deac77 (Jan 30, 2014)

Roadkill said:


> Deac77, that's a great looking tegu with a lot of white and good black definition of the scale delineations. However, here is the issue with "is this an extreme?" : people have this ideal of what an extreme is, that an extreme has a certain set of characteristics. This set of characteristics was "established" by Bobby Hill. Bobby Hill has proven to be a liar, a scammer, and extremely ignorant of tegus; meaning any claim from Mr. Hill is highly suspect to say the least. Next, we have seen cases here on this site where people have done much as you are now, posted a picture and asked if what they had was an extreme, not only that but also stating that the tegu in question was sold to them as an extreme by none other than Bobby Hill himself. And people have concluded "no, that is not an extreme".
> So where does this leave us? Given that these cases are genuine (ie. these people are telling the truth, that these tegus were indeed sold to them by Bobby Hill as extremes) that leaves us with:
> 1)Providence and pedigree mean nothing. We can breed an extreme to another extreme, and if the offspring doesn't look a certain way, we can't call those offspring extremes. I doubt people would accept this statement, but this is what they are doing. Likewise, if the "originator" of the line says it is something, and others later say no it isn't, it calls into question the validity of the line - ie. the description given of the set of characteristics doesn't reflect the reality of what they are, and therefore it is inaccurate, a false.
> 2)The claims of the originator are false. Whether through deliberate deception or innocent ignorance, this means that if some claims pertaining to the characteristics of the line in question are not to be trusted because of the originator, then the whole claim must likewise be suspect. This is not to say Bobby Hill wasn't capable of telling the truth at times, it is just saying given the frequency of his falsehoods, the idea that Extremes are a true lineage derived solely by him and have a strict set of characteristics, only has a fraction of a chance of being true, it cannot be trusted.
> ...




Roadkill I was actually making a point that Charlie is nothing more than a high white bw by Tommy's standards. His nose is not elongated, he's smaller than my female the same age, and I'm sure his egg was no larger base on the Info I was given about parents.


I was honestly being snide I do agree with you 100% they are just bws


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## Roadkill (Jan 30, 2014)

That's sort of my point, though. All these morphs, whether they can form a true lineage or not, are all derived from standard black and white stock. There really isn't an "average" black and white tegu, they show a tremendous amount of variation even within a small population. I wish I had had a digital camera when I first went to Brasil as we had two old boys that I have yet to see anything comparable. Both _Salvator merianae_, both from the same general gene pool. One was jet black, head to tail tip. Not "melanistic" in the typical sense, where one can see the regular markings but muted out beneath darker colouration. He was black. The other was a near polar opposite. White head to tail tip, but you could see the muted markings of a typical tegu. However his eyes were normal, indicating he was not albino, and due to the "muted" pigmentation pattern, I'm not sure if you'd call it leucistic either. Then in that same general gene pool we had others that were high white, high black, straight nosed, roman nosed, the singed nose that people say is typical of blues (which is in fact where I first got introduced into the blue myth by people being outraged that I was doing all my earlier lab work on a colony of "blues"), fire-bellies, you name it. Had one that grew up to have the most astounding colour, an overall salmon hue (similar, but not the same as the red of _Salvator rufescens_) with all kinds of colour motes all over - again people insisting it had to be a hybrid, despite the fact I knew the parentage, the entire gene pool this individual came from for generations, and could confidently claim a _S.rufescens _had never even walked past the colony let alone mated with one of them. My point, after all this rambling, is there isn't really a standard black and white, and even within a single, isolated population, you can get so much variation that it is laughable when I hear people make claims they imported this "morph" from this area, and therefore that's what the tegus there look like. And when you can't even believe providence....the whole idea of lineages goes right out the window. This doesn't mean there aren't some wonderful tegus out there with distinctive characteristics, just that the claim one can be this or not this is really highly artificial and subjective.


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## Deac77 (Jan 30, 2014)

Thats awesome though! I'd love to go down there and study them! I wish there was more studies DONE on them. We know so little it's sad. Even someone with your vast knowledge most likely has just scratched the surface.


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## Roadkill (Jan 30, 2014)

I wouldn't even claim to have scratched the surface. I have had exceptional privilege and some extraordinary experiences, and I would have to admit that while it may seem I have done lots and seen more, the reality is that it is only by comparison: I hardly explored much of the South American continent at all, and my tegu experiences would be restricted to a very, very little part of their range. I'm hoping this next year to finally return, try to see a bit more.


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## evantheelectrician (Jan 30, 2014)

TegusRawsome80 said:


> Chacoans are NOT a species, they are merely a locality of Black and Whites. This being said, they achieve the same lengths as other tegu species. 5 feet is rare, but happens in all the species occasionally in males. 4 feet is not an accurate average for females. My female "Chacoan" is an adult and about 3 feet long. And 8x4 is a good cage size. You don't need 4 feet of height however, just width. Height I recommend 2.5 feet to allow for proper basking temps.



Talk to Johnny LaRocca....


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## Deac77 (Jan 30, 2014)

evantheelectrician said:


> Talk to Johnny LaRocca....




Yes because breeders know more than biologists >.>


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## Deac77 (Jan 30, 2014)

Roadkill said:


> I wouldn't even claim to have scratched the surface. I have had exceptional privilege and some extraordinary experiences, and I would have to admit that while it may seem I have done lots and seen more, the reality is that it is only by comparison: I hardly explored much of the South American continent at all, and my tegu experiences would be restricted to a very, very little part of their range. I'm hoping this next year to finally return, try to see a bit more.


Man I would kill to go with you! I cant wait to finish school and follow in your footsteps!


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## evantheelectrician (Jan 30, 2014)

Don't care about arguing over classifications, I want to know about the lizards. 

How was I supposed to know you're a biologist anyways?


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## Deac77 (Jan 30, 2014)

We've explained it in length in this post, "Chacoans" are just black and whites. They grow at the same rates, get the same size, ect ect


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## evantheelectrician (Jan 30, 2014)

If Johnny agrees, then I'll concede.


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## Deac77 (Jan 31, 2014)

It's clearly no use. It's true that education is wasted I suppose smh


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## evantheelectrician (Jan 31, 2014)

Well theres theory, and there's practice. We're just on the other side of that line from one another. Now I didn't read the entire thread, I just found the classifieds again after a long hiatus from keeping reptiles. I wasn't trying to argue, I just wanted to give the best advice I could.


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## evantheelectrician (Jan 31, 2014)

I do like how you insinuate that I'm not educated for not agreeing with you. You're funny.


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## Deac77 (Jan 31, 2014)

evantheelectrician said:


> I do like how you insinuate that I'm not educated for not agreeing with you. You're funny.




Actually I was insinuating my education is wasted apparently. Since scientifically proven facts are false according to general masses or breeders


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## evantheelectrician (Jan 31, 2014)

Oh. Lol, I guess so. Are you a barista?


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## Deac77 (Jan 31, 2014)

evantheelectrician said:


> Oh. Lol, I guess so. Are you a barista?




Actually a zoology major focusing on reptiles and amphibians and work in the lab at school, as well as at a bank


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## TeguBuzz (Jan 31, 2014)

@evantheelectrician Be a little more civil, I've already had to delete on of your posts. I agree with you that Johnny is an upstanding guy and I've dealt with him for a very long time and had much of his stock in the past. 

Will be closing this thread as I think the issue has been discussed far enough. Evan, if you have any further comments directed at me, send me a PM. I appreciate Deac77 and Roadkill's comments, and I agree with both of you but this thread is heading down a bad direction.


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