# Reviews Wanted



## Toby_H (Feb 5, 2010)

IÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢m looking for input in the conceptual design for my TeguÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢s CageÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¦

At nearly 2 years old she is 36Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â and has outgrown her 4Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ x 2Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ x 2Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ grow out cage. The cage will be (approx) 7Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ long x 2.5Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ deep (front to back) @ 3Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ tall. It will serve as a stand for a 180 Gal fish tank. The inside of the cage will be painted with Drylock to prevent water/humidity damage.

I am confident in my ability to structurally engineer and build the cage, but want to share my conceptual design to gain foresight in the planning stage.









Water - 12" x 21" @ 12" Deep (Filled to 10"). The water depth can be decreased by increasing the sand/gravel depth in the bottom of this water bin. (Suggestions on water depth for a 36Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â + Tegu wated)

Filter - 12" x 9" Box. Aquarium powerhead installed in left side (output side) pushing water into the 'pond', a sponge in the middle and a open space on the right to house a water heater. (IÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢m a fish geek so this part is right up my alley)

Mulch - 72" x 30" @ 10~12" Deep Cypress Mulch. Note the mulch extends beneath the shelf.

Shelf - 24" x 30"... 12" above the bottom of the tank. The front and rear will be supported by 2"x2"s and the right side will be hinged allowing access to the mulch beneath the shelf. 

Lighting - A 4' fluorescent fixture will be attached (centered) at the very top at the very front. This light will be for lighting only. A 3' fixture Will be attached (centered) on the back wall 12Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â above the top of the mulch. The bulb will be facing down and the fixture will be disguised with Styrofoam to look like wood or rock (top open to release heat). This 3Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ fixture will house a UVB bulb. An incandescent fixture with a dome will be attached in the top/right/front corner shining on the shelf. All lighting will be on timers as needed per the season.

Ventilation (not shown) - 6Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â x 24Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â openings will be cut into the sides on the upper part of the side walls on both the right and left. These vents will likely have doors so they can be closed to seal in heat (or smell!) as needed. One of these vents will likely have a 6Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â computer fan incorporated in it (blowing in) which will be switch operated with the potential to be timer operated. 

Heat (not shown) - The water feature will contain a water heater keeping the water in the low 80s (*F). 4W per foot heat tape will be taped to the bottom of the tank beneath the shelf (Previous use/experienced verifies this will not overheat). Heat tape will be on timer with lights as needed pending season. Incandescent fixture & bulb will provide some heat. This tank will also serve as a stand for a large fish tank which will be heated to 80*F thus helping to heat the tank. 

Humidity - The water Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?â??pondÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â should supply quite a bit. The tank will be sealed water tight so water can liberally e poured into the substrate. If humidity suffers I will consider adding a waterfall type feature to the Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?â??pondÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â. 


Input/comments welcomeÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¦


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## Pikey (Feb 5, 2010)

all sound good but try 3-4ft deep 2.5ft is too small

but keep in mind the UVB tube has to be no farther than 20" from the top of the substrate


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## TeguKid80 (Feb 5, 2010)

I respectfully disagree. 2.5 feet is perfectly alright.


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## isdrake (Feb 6, 2010)

I'm not that good at building enclosures so I don't dare to give you any input on the design.

However, since you're building a new enclosure I would strongly recommend you to follow Agama International recommendations of enclosure size. According to them it should be AT LEAST 8' x 4' for one adult Tegu. But the bigger the better.

Anything smaller than that is just cruel.


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## Toby_H (Feb 6, 2010)

Pikey thanks for the reminder about the UVB. As mentioned in the lighting section above the UVB is planned to be 12" above the mulch. 

As for size, I'm giving her the space I can afford to give her. 

As for throwing the "cruel" label at me, if 4' x 8' is suitable for a 4' male... doesn't common sense smack you in the face at let you know that 3' x 6' would be just as suitable for a 3' female? And while I understand 2.5' is not 3', the diference isn't all that much...

Likewise the amount of time she gets out of the cage and stretches her legs can make a huge difference. Just like it's "cruel" to keep a dog in an appartment IF (big if) it doesn't go for walks on a regular basis, but with daily long walks it would not be cruel.

I'm still looking for constructive input on the design, but hopefully this time without the condescending comments.


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## TeguKid80 (Feb 6, 2010)

2.5 feet is just fine and isdrake you honestly need to watch what you say, it is in no way cruel to keep a tegu in less than an 8 by 4 foot cage. If you are saying that I believe you are accusing quite a few members of animal cruelty. This is not only offensive but also not constructive to the thread at hand. Your comment leaned towards criticizing the poster rather than helping him. I think your cage plans look good as I already said...


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## Pikey (Feb 6, 2010)

sorry if i came off condescending... Did not mean too
but no the cage looks good (i'm seeing more & more people put in a "pond" with filter - i have one in my 3 tegus winter home (they spend all summer out side)

your right 2.5 is not much smaller than 3, but most people would say 3 - 2.5-3.5ft
tegus in a 4x8x2 is not good but mine seem very happy plus they get at least 2 hours out evryday or every other day (when they arn't burmating/hibernating)

i always recamend 3-4x8x2 cuz i dont know if people let them out at all

dont rag on isdrake either in his country they have legal cage sizes for different size lizards and a 7x3 cage would be illegal there for an adult tegu


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## TeguKid80 (Feb 6, 2010)

I wasn't ragging on her, she just called a bunch of people's cages cruel. I take offense to that.


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## Toby_H (Feb 7, 2010)

Thanks for the input Pikey. 

My girl spent the majority of last summer free roaming a 6Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ x 10Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ balcony with her 4Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢x2Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢x2Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ cage sitting with the cage door open. She will likely spend the bulk of this summer the same way. But when I am away for extended periods or in early spring/late fall she needs a Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?â??properÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â inside cage (or winter as she isnÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Å?t hibernating very well this year).

No hard feelings toward Isdrake. I do think she pulled off the Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?â??cruelÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â word a little prematurely. Asking a few questions and making some constructive suggestions would have conveyed the same message in a much more constructive way. But we all have our own ways of getting our points acrossÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¦

I haggled with the decision on depth quite a bit. But in the end I needed the height or the depth to be able to fit through a 32Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â door. Had I made the height 30Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â and kept my 1Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ of mulch and stout ceiling rafters the windows in my doors would have only been 12Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?ÂÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¦ And since this cage will double as a 180 gal aquarium stand I didnÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢t feel comfortable making it in two pieces.

Last summer she seemed to be shedding all the time and it seemed like twice a week I was washing the tub to give her a bath then washing the tub to get the Tegu goo out. I felt that giving her a good sized water bin may allow her to bath herself. Since I know she likes to poo in the water, and being a fairly handy fish guy anyway, adding the filter box was a no brainer.

Her current cage (4x2x2 plywood) is sealed with Drylock (concrete sealer) and is 100% water tight so IÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢m confident I can make that little box water tight also.

I made up some drawings for the structural design if anyoneÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢s interestedÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¦ IÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ll include the Note pageÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¦

Front View





Side View





Center/Side Profile





Top View





Notes:
Side Profile: Scale - 1Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â = 20 units
All Lumber shown 2x4Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢s except lateral (left to right) support below double joists is 2x6.
Double Joists milled to be perfectly flat/parallel making them literally 1.5Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â x 3Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â boards.
Ã?â??Ã?Â½Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â Plywood shell
Left to right view is shown 1Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â to long. Exterior measurements (ply to ply) is to be 30Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â
Light shown is 4Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ single bulb strip light centered (per front view)
Vents are shown as notation only (not structurally critical). 


Center Profile : Scale - 1Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â = 20 units
All Lumber shown 2x4Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢s except lateral (left to right) support below double joists is 2x6.
Double Joists milled to be perfectly flat/parallel making them literally 1.5Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â x 3Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â boards.
Ã?â??Ã?Â½Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â Plywood shell
Left to right view is shown 1Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â to long. Exterior measurements (plyo ply) is to be 30Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â


Front View : Scale - 1Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â = 10 units
Solid line is a seam that meets the plywood face; dashed line is a hidden line or a seam that is blocked by another board.
Lumber/Structural view is without plywood. Plywood is only shown in the large open spaces. Plywood is shown here to display cut out which doors will cover.


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## Pikey (Feb 7, 2010)

TeguKid80 said:


> I wasn't ragging on her, she just called a bunch of people's cages cruel. I take offense to that.




in her country those cages ARE cruel


but your cage plan looks great, but 2x4's & 1/2 is gonna be HEAVY try 2x2's for everything other than the basic frame & 1/4" plywood


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## Toby_H (Feb 7, 2010)

Pikey said:


> but your cage plan looks great, but 2x4's & 1/2 is gonna be HEAVY try 2x2's for everything other than the basic frame & 1/4" plywood



Keep in mind this is going to double as a stand for a 180 gallon aquarium (filled with water). So I'm not cuting corners on support. 




Pikey said:


> in her country those cages ARE cruel



A Tegu in the United States needs just as big of a cage as a Tegu in any other country. Location doesn't change the animal's needs...


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## lazyjr52 (Feb 7, 2010)

I think your plans look great. And I agree, go with the 2x4's. That's what I use for my 8x4x3 foot cage. And that has two 6 feet cages stacked on that. I even stand on top of the 8 foot cage while cleaning the other cages. I do highly reccomend heavy duty wheel casters thou. Mine even roll around on carpet.


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## Pikey (Feb 7, 2010)

i know location dont change the needs, but what we view is good is now always good some place else... most people say a tegu will be fine in a 6x3x3 cage but in isdrakes country that would be animal cruelty & illegal.....thats all i was trying to say


And you're right the 2x4's and 1/2 would be best i forgot you were putting a tank on top...My bad


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## Toby_H (Feb 7, 2010)

lazyjr52 said:


> I do highly reccomend heavy duty wheel casters thou. Mine even roll around on carpet.



Again, since it will hold a 180 gallon aquarium (nearly 2,000 lbs / 900 KG), there's no way in h*** I'm putting it on casters. It will sit flat on the floor spreading that weight out as much as possible. When it's time to move it the aquarium will be drained and removed and 4-wheel dollies will be slipped under the cage or it will be put on a box dolly.

I've never really understood putting wheels on a large cage. If it's in a location where moving it for maintenance is required then sure it makes sense. But since I will only be moving mine I'll be perfectly happy putting it on a dolly of sorts. 




Pikey said:


> i know location dont change the needs, but what we view is good is now always good some place else... most people say a tegu will be fine in a 6x3x3 cage but in isdrakes country that would be animal cruelty & illegal.....thats all i was trying to say



While I understand how individuals (or governments) define cruel changes from place to place, the animals needs do not. I've heard a lot of opininos on what is ideal, what is minimum and what is good enough for a Tegu, but I've never really heard any facts or evidence to support them. Which is why I made a thread on the topic here although it hasn't gotten any response (last I checked). 




Pikey said:


> And you're right the 2x4's and 1/2 would be best i forgot you were putting a tank on top...My bad



Yea, the aquarium on top makes all the difference. My 4' x 2' x 2' is framed with 2x2's with a 3/8" ply shell. I fell through 1/4" ply once and I still haven't forgiven it...


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## TeguKid80 (Feb 7, 2010)

Although her country has different needs, we have told her many times that it is acceptable to have a cage less than 8 by 4 by 4 yet she still comments saying it is not. That is annoying and not constructive.


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## rrcoolj (Feb 7, 2010)

Don't blame isdrake for doing her job as a herp keeper. Although i will say that since you Toby_H will be giving her outside time since you can being in the south(we have bout 2ft of snow right now) than having a smaller cage isn't a big deal. I would rather someone give a cage size too big than too small. You would be surprised how many people say that 4ft cage is okay for a tegu. If we keep going lower and lower were not giving room to the lizard which isn't fair. IMO Toby_H giving your circumstance your cage is perfectly fine but yes 6X3 or preferable 8X4 is a good cage size for a tegu. If someones feelings get a bit hurt well im sorry but we are looking at the well being of the animals. If you don't have the room don't keep the lizard...

Oh and keep all the support you can possibly get. People underestimate how heavy fish tanks are. My 29 gallon is heavy as crap I can only imagine 180 gallons. What's going in there by the way. Oscars?


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## isdrake (Feb 7, 2010)

I didn't plan on getting into this discussion because I have already said what I wanted to say. But because it became such a fuss out of it I feal that I have to explain myself.

I didn't mean to be rude. But I was really, really, really upset then I wrote that. It seems like Americans and Europeans have very different opinions about living space for animals. And not only for reptiles but other animals too.

In my ears 7 x 2.5 sounds really small for a Tegu. That's it about the same size I use for our bearded dragon. I know that we have different views on it. But however I look at still don't think anything less then 8x4 is decent for an Argentine Tegu. If it's for hibernation or sleeping only and the Tegu spend it's time in a bigger and natural space... then I'm okay with it.

But even Tegus that are freeroaming everyday need decent space to move on then they are not roaming. Big animals require big space. And if you can't provide that then you will have to choose a smaller lizard.

But as I said, I didn't mean to be rude and I'm sorry for that. I just wanted to use a strong word to state my point. My main concern is with the animals, not the people keeping them. But I'm also think we might have a stronger language where I live. Saying the same thing in a Swedish forum would never cause this much commotion.

I will think about how I say things in the future. But it's hard since I'm not that good at expressing myself in English. Even writing this takes me a large amount of effort and time. So I guess I will always be considered "short".

Myself I'm still in in some sort of "chock" finding out how Americans house their animals. And I'm sorry if you find me annoying. But I'm going to continue to recommend 8x4 as a minimum. But I guess I will calm down once I get used to it.

I am however happy that I managed to start this discussion. I think that discussions about caging size is necessary on this forum. And I also hope that I'm not considered a bad guy along you all by now.

_And just to straighten things out. Yes, that cage would be illegal to use here and it is considered as animal cruelty. 3 m2 (about 8x4) is the minimum cage you can use for an lizard that is 100cm - 125cm long (3.3f - 4.1f)_


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## rrcoolj (Feb 7, 2010)

isdrake said:


> I didn't plan on getting into this discussion because I have already said what I wanted to say. But because it became such a fuss out of it I feal that I have to explain myself.
> 
> I didn't mean to be rude. But I was really, really, really upset then I wrote that. It seems like Americans and Europeans have very different opinions about living space for animals. And not only for reptiles but other animals too.
> 
> ...




Cage size shouldn't differ between coutrys and I am 100% with you.

Oh and were american we complain about everything :lol:


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## TeguKid80 (Feb 7, 2010)

Okay Isdrake sorry if I offended you in any way.


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## Toby_H (Feb 8, 2010)

An old (American) saying is, Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?â??You can catch more flies with honey than vinegarÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â. Being a little Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢nicerÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ while conveying your message is better received. It often works.

But when you made your initial comment I never mentioned the outdoor deck/balcony, you were dealing with both language and cultural barriers and were not only responded to this thread but a pattern that has been bothering you.

So in the end I hope we can both see the each otherÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢s point and have no hard feelings. I donÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢t hate you for it 


You said in Sweden 3 square meters (8Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢ x 4Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢) is the minimum legal size for a 100~125 cm (3.3Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢~4.1Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢)Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¦ what is the legal minimum for a lizard slightly less than 100 cm?


I made another thread in this folder to discuss cage sizes. IÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã¢â??Â¢d love to hear peoples thoughts on the subject. I prefaced it the way I did only to discourage short posts of : this x thatÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¦ and to encourage logical explanations of why one thinks what they think. In other words encouraging dialog and discouraging listingÃ?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¦


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## isdrake (Feb 8, 2010)

If I had know that your Tegu had access to an outdoor deck then I wouldn't had made that comment in the first place. So next time I recommend you writing those things because that's pretty significant information. 

I will take a look at that thread. I tried to make one myself a little while ago but not many answered.

The minimum legal size for a 76-100 cm long (2.5-3.2 feet) lizard (that lives on the ground) is 2,5 mÃ?â??Ã?Â². That's about 8.2x3.3 feet.


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## rmzsuzuki89 (Feb 9, 2010)

I like the water pump idea...Will there be a ramp going up to the shelf, or will she be able to just climb up?


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## Toby_H (Feb 9, 2010)

The "shelf" in the diagram won't be a true raised shelf. It will sit right on top of the mulch. This way the area under the shelf will feel more like a mulch filled hide box...

It will be hinged at the side wall allowing the shelf to be lifted for cleaning beneath it...

The shelk will also serve as a feeding area to help prevent much grom getting mixed in the ground Turkey. I know that it is commonly siggested not to feed in the cage and I thought this decision through...

Lastly, there will be heat tape attached to the bottom side of the shelf helping the surface on the shelf to heat up makign it a better basking area.

Once I have the thing put together I will then decide if I want to add a raised shelf on the back wall in conjunction with the UVB light. I would not put a ramp up to it. Although Tegus do not climb around in trees in the wild, they are quite capable of pulling themselves up onto a raised platform.


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## rmzsuzuki89 (Feb 9, 2010)

Toby_H said:


> The "shelf" in the diagram won't be a true raised shelf. It will sit right on top of the mulch. This way the area under the shelf will feel more like a mulch filled hide box...
> 
> It will be hinged at the side wall allowing the shelf to be lifted for cleaning beneath it...
> 
> ...



Ah I see, good idea.


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