# Size



## Skipperii (Mar 27, 2013)

I have had my tegu for a little over a year now and it's only 13 inches long. Is this normal?


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## Dubya (Mar 27, 2013)

Are you sure it is a tegu?


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## Skipperii (Mar 27, 2013)

Yea. It's a argentine red tegu.


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## jondancer (Mar 27, 2013)

Post a picture.


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## TeguBuzz (Mar 27, 2013)

Even with hibernation, I don't see how it's possible for a tegu over one year of age to be 13in long. Doesn't seem right at all.


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## bfb345 (Mar 27, 2013)

unless you ve been like starving it lol


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## psychocircus91 (Mar 27, 2013)

do you mean from head to vent? if hibernated, this may be possible, but head to tip of the tail? I don't think so. post a photo with something to reference it by.


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## Skipperii (Mar 27, 2013)

Here is a picture of when I was giving him a bath yesterday. He only got out of hibernation 2 weeks ago. Maybe this could be the reason?


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## psychocircus91 (Mar 27, 2013)

you've had him over a year? How long was he awake before brumation? He should be the same size coming out of brumation as when he went in. They don't grow because they don't eat.


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## Skipperii (Mar 27, 2013)

yes i got him last January, and when i got him he started to brumate, and then came out and began to grow for a couple months. but around september he went back into brumating and has recently just gotten out.


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## Roadkill (Mar 27, 2013)

Don't let these guys scare you, it's quite normal for a tegu to stay this small for a couple years. In most clutches, you'll get a couple individuals that grow very fast, and a few that don't. They'll stay small for a long time, and then ZIP, grow like mad in no time. As long as you're giving them good nutrition, there's nothing to worry about.


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## Skipperii (Mar 28, 2013)

Ok thank you


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## Grendel (Mar 28, 2013)

I think you should post your husbandry practice and set up. A one year old tegu the size of a hatchling is not normal.


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## reptastic (Mar 28, 2013)

How long did he stay down the first time and when did he wake up?


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## Roadkill (Mar 28, 2013)

I've raised countless tegus, under the same conditions, in the same enclosures, and some grew up to "normal" size in 2 years, others hardly grew at all in that same time frame. It is indeed normal for some not to grow much. It isn't a frequent occurence, but it is normal. Just because this tegu is small does not mean there is anything wrong with it or the husbandry. Rapid growth is something to be more concerned with than slow growth.


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## psychocircus91 (Mar 29, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> I've raised countless tegus, under the same conditions, in the same enclosures, and some grew up to "normal" size in 2 years, others hardly grew at all in that same time frame. It is indeed normal for some not to grow much. It isn't a frequent occurence, but it is normal. Just because this tegu is small does not mean there is anything wrong with it or the husbandry. Rapid growth is something to be more concerned with than slow growth.



Yes, different growth rates are normal. Thirteen inches for a tegu that is nearly a year and a half old is very unusual..


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## Roadkill (Mar 29, 2013)

Based on what concrete evidence? I've raised thousands of tegus, no exaggeration, over the years. In that time I've noticed that in most cohorts you get a few individuals that grow REALLY fast. So fast that you need to separate them from the rest of the group because there's a good chance (and yes, I've seen it) that they will turn on their siblings and eat them. Likewise, there's also usually a few individuals that, despite being kept under the exact same conditions, offered the exact same food, have the exact same husbandry, just voluntarily don't eat as much and stay alarmingly small for quite a while (usually about 2 years). Then one day their appetite picks up and they grow rapidly to meet the general size of the rest of their siblings. This is likely an evolutionary strategy to ensure success of a generation. If conditions are optimal that year, those bruisers with the rapid growth are likely to succeed very well and pass on their genetics to the next generation (making the most of when it is good). During times of poor conditions, with restricted access to resources and increased competition, those bruisers are going to fail, chances are the 'regulars' are going to fail or at least have a hard time, but the 'runts' who don't eat much, don't need much resources to grow, will do fine, get through the hard times, and then take advantage of later times when conditions are more favourable, thereby ensuring continuation of the species.

Being small is not a guaranteed sign of illness or bad husbandry, sometimes it is just a sign of being small. Or do you take it out on the parents of your neighborhood and chastise them for abusing their kids and malnutrition when they have short kids?


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 29, 2013)

You've raised thousands of tegus Roadkill? Under what program or institution did you do this? Where are they all now?


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## laurarfl (Mar 29, 2013)

Roadkill spent time in Brazil researching tegus. He has authored or co-authored published papers that I have read before (maybe they were textbook excerpts?). If he says thousands, I'd believe that to be a true statement.


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## Roadkill (Mar 29, 2013)

That's ok, Laura, I'm getting used to it. When you challenge the preconceived ideas of others based on assumption, be prepared to be challenged directly and personally.

I feel it unnecessary to provide the name(s) of the places and peoples involved because they are scientists and research institutions and I know some of them don't appreciate being bothered by public. However, I will say that Laura is right, I went to Brasil to do research on tegu hibernation, while there I basically ran most of the tegu operations at the facility I was working at. We breed tegus (as well as numerous other species such as 3 species of caiman, anacondas, rattlesnakes, iguanas, red-footed tortoises, Burmese pythons, numerous turtles, several _Bothrops_ species, etc.) for our own needs as well as to provide specimens for the scientific community so that wild populations were not as heavily impacted. Where they are all now, I can't say for sure - they went to scientists for research. I know some of the destinations were Canada, US, Brasil, Denmark, Brittain, South Africa and Australia, but I know I don't know them all. But here's a little something to get people to perhaps use their brains:





This photo is about HALF of the baias (tegu breeding pens) in ONE of our tegu "fields" (insets are photos of the artificial burrows we construct for their nesting and hibernation). I can count/calculate 22 pens in that photo alone. In each pen I kept on average one male with 2-3 females. With that combination, I was pretty much guaranteed to get a minimum of 100 hatched eggs per baia; often more, rarely less. Do the math: how many tegus could I have produced from the baias in that photo alone in one year alone? Still thinking I'm trying to exaggerate?





Part of our _Boa constrictor_ breeding colony.





Half of one of our _Bothrops_ rooms





part of our South American rattlesnake room





one of our Paraguayan caiman pens





Some baby _Salvator merianae_ - if you look at the paper they're on, it is clear it is Brasilian newspaper.





The first Geoffroy's side-necked turtle (_Phrynops geoffroyanus_) I produced at this facility

I realize many take their debating lessons from American politics, but trying to silence the message by discrediting the messenger in this case isn't going to get far.


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## TegusRawsome80 (Mar 29, 2013)

Someone's rather defensive. Since I have absolutely no idea who you are, why would I automatically believe that you raised thousands of tegus? It's cool that you apparently did and all I wanted to know was what you told me. Thanks for providing that information.


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## Dubya (Mar 29, 2013)

I think Roadkill may be a midget based on his strong defense of smallness. This is based on my own extensive study of midgets on cable TV and a very short co-worker with a Napolean complex.


Not that there's anything wrong with that.


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## reptastic (Mar 29, 2013)

Nice roadkill, do you always get this treatment in the forums? I remember a similar thread with a breeder who shall remain shameless


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## Roadkill (Mar 29, 2013)

Someone asked that I defend myself, not the message I've been trying to convey, on a personal basis.

lol, Dubya, I don't know what to say...I consider myself average size. The research facility I currently work at, however....well, the people there have something different to say, as I'm known for things like them having to special order nitrile gloves for my size and for stacking equipment too high for anyone else to reach.


Yes, reptastic, I have frequently gotten this treatment. Got worse from the St. Pierres, Rick Sisco, far worse from Bobby Hill, and others less known. Do I know what I'm talking about? Don't know for sure, but I'm still here and they aren't. However, it's not the glory I'm here for, I just want people to understand their animals better and through that hopefully help out the animals.


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## TheTeguGurl (Mar 29, 2013)

Roadkill thank you for this information!


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## laurarfl (Mar 29, 2013)

I'm glad your patient, Roadkill. It took me some time to get used to the tone of your posts. I do consider you to be a mentor of sorts I guess. You always challenge me to think and dig further to find the information. I have a lot of respect for your work and I guess it bothers me to see you get bashed on any forum as if you were some backyard breeder without an ounce of common sense.


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## Roadkill (Mar 29, 2013)

Unfortunately, with the written word, people choose the tone they want to read in. There's little control in that. And I tend to be blunt, not exactly a good combination.

On the other hand, if I had more common sense, perhaps I'd date fewer psychopaths


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## Raicardoso (Mar 29, 2013)

On a OT note, where in brazil were you Roadkill? I'm from there myself.


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## Roadkill (Mar 29, 2013)

Sao Paulo state, primarily. One of the UNESP campuses.


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## psychocircus91 (Mar 29, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> Based on what concrete evidence? I've raised thousands of tegus, no exaggeration, over the years. In that time I've noticed that in most cohorts you get a few individuals that grow REALLY fast. So fast that you need to separate them from the rest of the group because there's a good chance (and yes, I've seen it) that they will turn on their siblings and eat them. Likewise, there's also usually a few individuals that, despite being kept under the exact same conditions, offered the exact same food, have the exact same husbandry, just voluntarily don't eat as much and stay alarmingly small for quite a while (usually about 2 years). Then one day their appetite picks up and they grow rapidly to meet the general size of the rest of their siblings. This is likely an evolutionary strategy to ensure success of a generation. If conditions are optimal that year, those bruisers with the rapid growth are likely to succeed very well and pass on their genetics to the next generation (making the most of when it is good). During times of poor conditions, with restricted access to resources and increased competition, those bruisers are going to fail, chances are the 'regulars' are going to fail or at least have a hard time, but the 'runts' who don't eat much, don't need much resources to grow, will do fine, get through the hard times, and then take advantage of later times when conditions are more favourable, thereby ensuring continuation of the species.
> 
> Being small is not a guaranteed sign of illness or bad husbandry, sometimes it is just a sign of being small. Or do you take it out on the parents of your neighborhood and chastise them for abusing their kids and malnutrition when they have short kids?



I said unusual, not impossible... On what evidence? On the fact that most of us found that it was unusual that his tegu was that small. 

Please show me where I ever accused the OP of poor care, since your message was directed towards me.

Instead of a personal attack with your last comment, how about just sharing information.

Thanks.


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## laurarfl (Mar 30, 2013)

Psychocircus, I don't think the message was directed at you. There were a few messages that insinuated it was abnormal to have a tegu that small. I think that assumption is based on the fact that we see so much anecdotal evidence of big tegus. For people that have young tegus that are awake and eating heartily, they can achieve a very rapid growth. The growth is so fast and changes surprising that owners share them on forums. So we are used to seeing very large young tegus. No one starts a thread that says, "Hey, check this out!! I have a tegu that is 9months old and only 7inches long!!! Wow, this is so incredible!!!" lol.


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## psychocircus91 (Mar 30, 2013)

Well I assumed so because he posted, I posted, and then he posted again as if it were a response to me.
I was never calling him wrong, I was just questioning it. Most people would be surprised if they bought a yearling and it was 13 inches. This is why I thought it was unusual.
Regardless, we were asking OP such questions because isn't it POSSIBLE that his feeding regimen COULD have slowed growth? If we had more information COULDN'T we POSSIBLY suggest ways to stimulate growth?
Most of us were just trying to be helpful. Maybe everything is just fine with his care, but is it always best to assume so? He was asking if it was okay, and without knowing any further information, how could we know if it's completely normal? It depends.


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## laurarfl (Mar 30, 2013)

It is fine to ask, always. I think the point was just being made that if someone has a small tegu, don't automatically assume that it is because of bad husbandry. I have a 9.5 mo old tegu that is 13-14 inches long. I just measured it. It has been hibernating for 7 or so months of its life. You just never know. Its mom was the same way and now she is 4ft and quite average size.


Plus, if you read the first few responses after the OP, no one really asked about his husbandry. Instead there were comments that suggested it doesn't seem possible and it must be starved. Psychocircus, you were the first person I think to actually ask about the set-up.


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## Roadkill (Mar 30, 2013)

No one was assuming there was anything ok with this tegu, pretty much everyone was going on the assumption that small is bad. Yes, my query of based on what evidence was directed at your statement. I don't feel I attacked you in the least. In science, if you make a claim that something is so, you need to provide evidence to back that claim or at least a logical basis to support your hypothesis. I'm sorry, but I don't take "because we all believe small is bad" as evidence. In fact, in contrast, what many of you seem to believe (rapid growth equals awesome/good), many vets and biologists, particularly in the context of captive husbandry, KNOW is actually quite bad. Under rapid growth, the body places a high demand on the skeleton for calcium. You may not be aware, but the skeleton apparently didn't evolve primarily to be a structural support, its first function appears to have primarily been as a calcium storage - because calcium is required for nearly every physiological process in the cell and body and is relatively quite rare in the environment. If they rapidly grow and don't have enough calcium and phosphorus in their intake, the bones wind up being sacrificed to supply the other physiological needs (one of the arguments supporting the theory that structural support is one of the lower demands of the skeleton) and the organism winds up with low density bones. Look around this forum, and others, and you typically see people offering poorly informed advice on calcium needs (ie. dusting). Ask any veterinarian that is well educated and versed in bone health of reptiles and they will tell you the overwhelming majority of captive raised reptiles have low density bones. Put these two together, and I will place $100 down confidently that if you take your rapid growth tegu in for a bone density analysis you will be told your tegu "could definitely be better". But, as we know, for most people, it's more important to them that their tegu reaches 3' in the first year than it is to worry about the health of things they can't immediately see.


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## psychocircus91 (Mar 30, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> No one was assuming there was anything ok with this tegu, pretty much everyone was going on the assumption that *small is bad*. Yes, my query of based on what evidence was directed at your statement. *I don't feel I attacked you in the least*. In science, if you make a claim that something is so, *you need to provide evidence to back that claim or at least a logical basis to support your hypothesis.* I'm sorry, but I don't take "because we all believe *small is bad*" as evidence. In fact, in contrast, what many of you seem to believe (rapid growth equals awesome/good), many vets and biologists, particularly in the context of captive husbandry, KNOW is actually quite bad. Under rapid growth, the body places a high demand on the skeleton for calcium. You may not be aware, but the skeleton apparently didn't evolve primarily to be a structural support, its first function appears to have primarily been as a calcium storage - because calcium is required for nearly every physiological process in the cell and body and is relatively quite rare in the environment. If they rapidly grow and don't have enough calcium and phosphorus in their intake, the bones wind up being sacrificed to supply the other physiological needs (one of the arguments supporting the theory that structural support is one of the lower demands of the skeleton) and the organism winds up with low density bones. Look around this forum, and others, and you typically see people offering poorly informed advice on calcium needs (ie. dusting). Ask any veterinarian that is well educated and versed in bone health of reptiles and they will tell you the overwhelming majority of captive raised reptiles have low density bones. Put these two together, and I will place $100 down confidently that if you take your rapid growth tegu in for a bone density analysis you will be told your tegu "could definitely be better". But, as we know, for most people, it's more important to them that their tegu reaches 3' in the first year than it is to worry about the health of things they can't immediately see.



again... putting words in my mouth. Please show me where I stated small is bad? Do you define unusual and bad as the same thing? Does something over 13 inches at a year and a half old automatically mean poor bone health?

I have no problem with you defending your argument; I have no issue with being told I'm downright wrong if that's the case.

There are two issues. You keep putting words and my mouth and grouping me with others who commented on the post. Should I assume you're the same as other breeders such as Bobby Hill? No. 

Also your sarcasm in the previous post was unnecessary. Sarcasm does not translate well on the internet, nor is it really appropriate in person without knowing the person well.

I am not in the wrong for saying it is uncommon for a tegu in captivity to be 13 inches at that age. Uncommon =/= bad.
I am not in the wrong for questioning you when I originally had no idea of your breeding background.
People do share misinformation (which I have not), which is exactly why I ask questions.


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## Raicardoso (Mar 30, 2013)

Roadkill said:


> Sao Paulo state, primarily. One of the UNESP campuses.


Awesome! That's where I was born and 95% of my family currently stays.


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