# Theological Shedding Discussion



## Guest (Nov 26, 2007)

I'd like to discuss the issue of shedding in the sense of a medical basis. Shedding is the process of living scale cells replacing themselves as mitosis takes place and cell number does not increase, but rather die and are taken place by larger cells.

Part One - Hydrogen peroxide tricks the body into believing there is a concentration of WBC's at a particular area, and therefore the body sends even more to that particular area. Hydrogen peroxide obviously oxygenates the area and works as a mild antiseptic in 2-3% dilution. The simple theory is that the lightning fast decomp of peroxide, could POSSIBLY cause the loose skin capillary embolisms. This would loosen the dying skin and prepare an auto-immune reaction to protect the skin. This is possible but has not been tested, and would oviously have to be adjusted to the oxygen levels of a tegu. This should answer your questions about decomposition. Hydrogen peroxide always decomposes (disproportionates) exothermically into water and oxygen gas spontaneously:
2 H2O2 â?? 2 H2O + O2 
This process is very favorable; it has a Î?Ho of â??98.2 kJÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?Æ?Ã¢â?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?Â·molâ??1 and a Î?Go of â??119.2 kJÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?Æ?Ã¢â?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?Â·molâ??1 and a Î?S of 70.5 JÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?Æ?Ã¢â?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?Â·molâ??1Ã?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?Æ?Ã¢â?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?Â·Kâ??1. The rate of decomposition is dependent on the temperature and concentration of the peroxide, as well as the pH and the presence of impurities and stabilizers. Hydrogen peroxide is incompatible with many substances that catalyse its decomposition, including most of the transition metals and their compounds. Common catalysts include manganese dioxide, and silver. The same reaction is catalysed by the enzyme catalase, found in the liver, whose main function in the body is the removal of toxic byproducts of metabolism and the reduction of oxidative stress. The decomposition occurs more rapidly in alkali, so acid is often added as a stabilizer. There is no alkali metals in your tegu so that should cause no problem, but anyone who has ever done the Freshman Biology Combo of beef liver and peroxide knows that this is not something you could attempt with full 3% solution, nor submersing your tegu. This theory of mine is the idea of a 1% dilution of hydrogen peroxide onto a cotton ball and applied to the area in which shedding is starting.

Part Two - My personal favorite. What in the world is fish sauce?! Fish sauce is a condiment derived from fish that have been allowed to ferment. Fish sauce is a staple ingredient in Vietnamese, Thai, Lao, Philippine and is used in other Southeastern countries. Instead of adding to cooking, fish sauce can also be used as a dipping condiment for fish, shrimp, pork, and chicken. In southern China, it is used as an ingredient for soups and casseroles. Fish oils, fish parts, and salt are set to ferment and then the releasing liquid is released. The oils in fish and the process of fermentation cause a semi-isoprpyl like alchol to be present. More like the ethanol that humans consume for inebriation. It is a viable antiseptic as well as an organic oil based lubricant. NOTE (The prices of fish sauce are determined by the alloted period of time to ferment.) Two conclusions can be drawn from the ferment time in realtion to antibacteral properties as well as their practicality. The older fermented sauce is much less potent in smell, but may contain a higher concentration of an alcohol substance, the younger will smell strongly but may not have the intensity of strong alcohol. I have not tested old scotch and young scotch on a wound to determine which is less or more painful and of course you would want your tegu to be comfortable. Oh and of course if you have the younger, the smell maybe too much for your tegu to resist and your hand could be confused with a tasty fish!

Part Three - Fruits. A precise definition of fruit. A fruit is a ripened ovary. After the ovule in an ovary is fertilized in a process known as pollination, the ovary begins to ripen. The ovule develops into a seed and the ovary wall pericarp may become fleshy (as in berries or drupes), or form a hard outer covering (as in nuts). In some cases, the sepals, petals and/or stamens and style of the flower fall off. Fruit development continues until the seeds have matured. With some multiseeded fruits the extent to which the flesh develops is proportional to the number of fertilized ovules. Fruits tend to be high in fiber and Vitamin C, and sometimes vitamin A. Neither Vitamin C nor A serve any dermetological purposes in the aid of exfoliation, skin disease, or basic skin health, whether it be your skin, scales, feathers, or fur. Some fruit contain natural helpers to cause a shine to skin, hair, and/or scales, but none of these "fruits" are fruits by definition of consumption. Vitamin A and C are both aides in Auto-Immune regulator production, but have nothing to do with the body's outer protection in any species. So if the only evidence we rely on is scientific, fruit does not aid in shedding nor the brightness in color of your animal. However, it might save him from a nasty bit of the common cold?


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## PuffDragon (Nov 26, 2007)

Although these might be valid solutions to shedding issues. I have always found shedding to be a matter of overall care of reptiles with emphasis on proper husbandry and humidity. Problem sheds seem to stem from a number of conditions. Incomplete or improper shedding is referred to as dysecdysis and is most commonly associated with poor husbandry or improper nutrition. Other causes may include: external parasites, infections, trauma, dermatitis, malnutrition, over-handling and improper lighting, temperature or humidity. However, dysecdysis can also be a symptom of more serious problems requiring veterinarian care. 

If it has been determined that the dysecdysis is not due to more serious medical reasons, there are several steps you can take to prevent incomplete shedding in the future. The easiest is by monitoring the humidity in your reptile's environment. Humidity is an important factor and most cases of dysecdysis can be managed by simply increasing the humidity. Most reptiles require an environment of 50 to 70% humidity but always check the specific needs of your particular species and adjust the humidity requirements accordingly. For intance our Tegu's should keep a humidity around 70-90% On average I keep my cage around 80-85% and have never had any problem sheds. 

For tropical reptiles, misting your enclosure thoroughly with lukewarm water during the shed cycle can help provide the necessary humidity. You can also create a moist "humid box" by placing damp moss or paper towels in a well-ventilated box. The humid microclimate provided by the shedding box will help promote a good shed.


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## greentriple (Nov 26, 2007)

Ok, kids too much time watching Mr. Wizard. Get outside and play!!


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2007)

I'd like to think that you didn't just call a few of our fellow forum goers bad at their role of reptile husbandry. Humidity is a huge factor in shedding and should always be the first concern and remedy, but when it fails, there must be a remedy that we can come across to help ourselves with the issue. I disagree that all issues with shedding are due to poor husbandry. Just a few threads down, Mike asks for help with his tegu's shedding process. Does this mean that you believe that his humidity is poor and that he is not properly taking care of his animal? Humidity is a must but it will fail, just as eating correctly will keep you healthy, but you truly have absolutely no control in what happens to you. Cancer isn't waiting for you to have a poor diet, it pops up when it wants to and you are left with the consequences. Let's discuss the issue of solving the problem instead of pointing fingers, and I mean that in no malicious intent, so please do not feel attacked or offended. Anyone who has owned reptiles, including zoologists, major breeders, and professionals have had shedding problems with no relation to humidity. Raising a bearded dragon's humidity levels with a bad shed will accomplish two things. Jack and Squat.


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## PuffDragon (Nov 26, 2007)

ApriliaRufo said:


> I'd like to think that you didn't just call a few of our fellow forum goers bad at their role of reptile husbandry. Humidity is a huge factor in shedding and should always be the first concern and remedy, but when it fails, there must be a remedy that we can come across to help ourselves with the issue. I disagree that all issues with shedding are due to poor husbandry. Just a few threads down, Mike asks for help with his tegu's shedding process. Does this mean that you believe that his humidity is poor and that he is not properly taking care of his animal? Humidity is a must but it will fail, just as eating correctly will keep you healthy, but you truly have absolutely no control in what happens to you. Cancer isn't waiting for you to have a poor diet, it pops up when it wants to and you are left with the consequences. Let's discuss the issue of solving the problem instead of pointing fingers, and I mean that in no malicious intent, so please do not feel attacked or offended. Anyone who has owned reptiles, including zoologists, major breeders, and professionals have had shedding problems with no relation to humidity. Raising a bearded dragon's humidity levels with a bad shed will accomplish two things. Jack and Squat.



My post at best was very generalized and in no way representative of forum goers husbandry. Humidity must be taken into consideration of the individual species needs. Yes raising humidity in a beardies cage wont accomplish anything but that wasn't what I was trying to get at. I would also never assume or begin to point fingers at anyones husbandry other than my own. I do not know what goes on behind closed doors. With no real scientific data to back up our ideas, what we share here is only our personal opinions. If you felt I pointed fingers at someone I am sorry but I do not feel I did.


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## PuffDragon (Nov 26, 2007)

problem sheds do happen no matter what but are in no way the same as cancer. My thoughts are more of a precursor on how to avoid them.


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## Mike (Nov 26, 2007)

greentriple said:


> Ok, kids too much time watching Mr. Wizard. Get outside and play!!



Haha I remember Mr. Wizard. You could tell he was sexist. What a creepy guy.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2007)

PuffDragon said:


> ApriliaRufo said:
> 
> 
> > I'd like to think that you didn't just call a few of our fellow forum goers bad at their role of reptile husbandry. Humidity is a huge factor in shedding and should always be the first concern and remedy, but when it fails, there must be a remedy that we can come across to help ourselves with the issue. I disagree that all issues with shedding are due to poor husbandry. Just a few threads down, Mike asks for help with his tegu's shedding process. Does this mean that you believe that his humidity is poor and that he is not properly taking care of his animal? Humidity is a must but it will fail, just as eating correctly will keep you healthy, but you truly have absolutely no control in what happens to you. Cancer isn't waiting for you to have a poor diet, it pops up when it wants to and you are left with the consequences. Let's discuss the issue of solving the problem instead of pointing fingers, and I mean that in no malicious intent, so please do not feel attacked or offended. Anyone who has owned reptiles, including zoologists, major breeders, and professionals have had shedding problems with no relation to humidity. Raising a bearded dragon's humidity levels with a bad shed will accomplish two things. Jack and Squat.
> ...




Shoot I knew that was going to happen. Ok let me explain my rebuttle because I think that we both sounded heated, and not knowing whether you are or not, I have to say that I am not. The idea that you were claiming a general population was misunderstood by myself. Lol. Unfortunately I have no respect for people who do not research their pets so if anyone did not see this post on this forum, they can find their own shedding aid. I was only offering a few theories for the experienced members like yourself here to examine and suggest others. So generally speaking (which I didn't catch onto, my mistake) I would completely concur, almost all shedding issues outside of experienced herpetoculturists is caused by humidity issues. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Heck 90% of animals in pet stores don't even have slight humidity. So all in all I apologize for that slight tiff, that was me misunderstanding the direction of your statement. Good thing too, cause I was confused, I thought you were a sharp cool guy, and it caught me off guard. Apparently you are a sharp guy! I don't know about the cool part. Jersey Boys are ghetto. Lol.


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## PuffDragon (Nov 26, 2007)

I am ghetto fabulous my friend. All is good on my end. Glad you recognized what I was saying. Now back to the topic at hand....


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2007)

Did you just quote some Death Row Records boy? You're on the wrong side of the country for that. Snoop is ours fool. Lol.


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## COWHER (Nov 26, 2007)

that was cool guys very big of you to resolve an issue so fast. lol welcome to the tegutalk family btw can you explain the peroxide thing in dumb guy terms?
:lol: :lol: :lol:


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2007)

COWHER said:


> that was cool guys very big of you to resolve an issue so fast. lol welcome to the tegutalk family btw can you explain the peroxide thing in dumb guy terms?
> :lol: :lol: :lol:



There was no need to get heated. Lol. He was pretty much stating that just like ALL of us, it's frustrating that so many people are horrible owners and most of the problems their animals have are the owners fault. I was thinking more inclusive and thought that was what he was saying, that people who come onto this forum with shed problems are poor owners, and simply put, that's not what he meant. 

As for the peroxide. Peroxide is a trick for your body. It is an antiseptic and can kill non-agressive bacteria and infection, but what it also does, is trick the body into believing that where the peroxide is, so is a serious problem. The body reacts by sending white blood cells (aka your body's personal mercenaries) to the site of the problem, which in turn speeds up the healing process. My theory is that since peroxide decomposes as it hits your skin, it would force high levels of moisture under the dying cells of skin that is going to shed. When peroxide decomposes it breaks down into H20 and O, water and pure oxygen. Hydrogen Peroxide is H2O2. So if a molecule of peroxide (h2o2) decomposes, it splits the oxygen into (h2o + o) water and oxygen, which can be released under the shedding skin. There are no 2 elements better for the dermal scales than water and oxygen.

Go to the grocery store and buy some beef liver, put it in a tall container, like a pitcher, and dump some peroxide in. This is how peroxide works. The liver breaks down peroxide in seconds so all of the oxygen and water foam up and over the pitcher.


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## greentriple (Nov 26, 2007)

I think this is an interesting theory. I called one of my medical experts and ran it by him. He was impressed and added that at times (rarely) when there is dead skin that needs to be removed in a hurry H2O2 is added to aid in the sloughing of the dead skin, but this is very rare he said, not common medical practice and more something done in the field when other alternatives are not available, because H202 can if cause some damage to good skin, not common either, but possible. Went on as experts do but I can't even begin to put down what he said. So I asked about lizard shedding and he said he had no idea. He then added that we could try it on a non-vital area and see.

So, Rufo - to quote Rocky Balboa: "Go for it!"


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## VARNYARD (Nov 26, 2007)

I like this, however, to claim that Vitamin A has nothing to do with skin is 110% pure wrong.

Vitamin A is essential for good healthÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â?¬Å¡Ã?Â¬


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2007)

VARNYARD said:


> I like this, however, to claim that Vitamin A has nothing to do with skin is 110% pure wrong.
> 
> Vitamin A is essential for good healthÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â?¬Å¡Ã?Â¬


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## VARNYARD (Nov 26, 2007)

> ApriliaRufo; *Vitamin A and C are both aides in Auto-Immune regulator production, but have nothing to do with the body's outer protection in any species.* So if the only evidence we rely on is scientific, fruit does not aid in shedding.



It is much better to heal something from the inside out, a good diet fed with A, E and the B Vitamins would tend to get the skin back to good health from the inside. This along with the proper humidity can fix the shedding problems in tegus.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2007)

VARNYARD said:


> > ApriliaRufo; *Vitamin A and C are both aides in Auto-Immune regulator production, but have nothing to do with the body's outer protection in any species.* So if the only evidence we rely on is scientific, fruit does not aid in shedding.
> 
> 
> 
> It is much better to heal something from the inside out, a good diet fed with A, E and the B Vitamins would tend to get the skin back to good health from the inside. This along with the proper humidity can fix the shedding problems in tegus.



Agreed the only problems are that many "fruits" (not considerred fruits by humans) are very high in A, E, and sometimes B, but the fruits that are generally being offered are just high in Vitamin C and fiber. I wasn't trying to Completely say that fruits are bad... I'm just saying that Rick among others are incorrect in thinking that if you didn't double up on fruits for your animal, they're gonna have shed problems. I will research the combination of Vitamin E and scales tonight. It is an IMMENSE need for human skin and I would assume has a large benefit for scales. Maybe we can come across some vegetable/fruit matter that is highly beneficial.


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## VARNYARD (Nov 26, 2007)

Beef liver is an excellent source of high-quality protein also natureÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¾Ã?â??Ã?Â¢s most concentrated source of vitamin A and all the B vitamins in abundance, particularly vitamin B12.

Vitamin E is also great for the skin, this also can be given in the form of cod, cod liver oil and wheat germ oil.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2007)

VARNYARD said:


> Beef liver is an excellent source of high-quality protein also natureâ??s most concentrated source of vitamin A and all the B vitamins in abundance, particularly vitamin B12.
> 
> Vitamin E is also great for the skin, this also can be given in the form of cod, cod liver oil and wheat germ oil.



Is it just me? Or is it freaking awesome to have conversations with this guy?! Hahaha! I love it Bobby. Stuff like this could never happen "anywhere else" (hint hint). I love sharing information and having it shared with me! These are the best threads!


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## COWHER (Nov 26, 2007)

I don't have as much info as you guys do but I know that a few Greek friends (from Greece) of mine use olive oil to help moisturize their skin after a sunburn also they told me it helps to get the peeling skin to come off. so what do you think??


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## greentriple (Nov 26, 2007)

I wonder how much of these particular vitamins Tegus get in the wild? Is captivity the cause of the problem? What foods in the wilds of Argentina have A, B, B12, and E, etc...? I don't think they eat cod or it's liver, talapia maybe. I know Argentina is known for its beef production, but are Tegus chomping on the livers?

My point is if our captive environments and diets are at fault should we not look to that and ways to improve husbandry to an assortment of "vitamins" can be provided "naturally"?

ApriliaRufo - try the Hydrogen Peroxide, let us know if it works.

Bobby, how do you handle the need for these vitamins in your animals?


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## VARNYARD (Nov 26, 2007)

To tell you the truth, in the wild they eat a bunch of different seeds, most seeds are high in oils.


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## greentriple (Nov 26, 2007)

Do you know what type of seeds? It would be good, I think, to be able to offer them something similar if not the same. I've not read anywhere the suggestion of feeding Tegus seeds.

What do you think?


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## PuffDragon (Nov 26, 2007)

ever hear of any problem with seeds getting stuck in the intestinal tract? That would be my only concern. There are alot of great seeds I can think of with great concentration of healthy oils. Flax, almonds, peanuts, sunflower etc. The smaller being my concern. If anything I would think the seeds in the wild tegu's might come from fruit?


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## VARNYARD (Nov 27, 2007)

They do eat palm dates for sure.( Euterpe edulis) palm seeds also called called "Palmito", (Syagrus oleracea) also called "Catole palm" seeds, (Syagrus romanzoffiana) "Queen palm", are eaten by tegus. All species of Tupinambis are dietary generalists. Arthropods, mollusks, and small vertebrates, particularly frogs, are common in their diets, as is carrion. They also feed seasonally on plant materials, especially fruits and seeds. An analysis of wild Argentine tegu stomachs revealed that tegus consume approx. 66.8% Vegetation, 12.9% Invertebrates and 20.3% Vertebrates.

As for the impactions due to seeds, or vegetation for that matter, all I can say is it is proven the eat these things in the wild. I would think that a palm date would be hard to pass for them, but they do eat them in the wild. There is also a few studies that were done with tegus on palm seed dispersal.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2007)

VARNYARD said:


> They do eat palm dates for sure.( Euterpe edulis) palm seeds also called called "Palmito", (Syagrus oleracea) also called "Catole palm" seeds, (Syagrus romanzoffiana) "Queen palm", are eaten by tegus. All species of Tupinambis are dietary generalists. Arthropods, mollusks, and small vertebrates, particularly frogs, are common in their diets, as is carrion. They also feed seasonally on plant materials, especially fruits and seeds. An analysis of wild Argentine tegu stomachs revealed that tegus consume approx. 66.8% Vegetation, 12.9% Invertebrates and 20.3% Vertebrates.
> 
> As for the impactions due to seeds, or vegetation for that matter, all I can say is it is proven the eat these things in the wild. I would think that a palm date would be hard to pass for them, but they do eat them in the wild. There is also a few studies that were done with tegus on palm seed dispersal.




I'm researching the "fruits" that are available in the wilds of SA and bobby's "seeds" are by definition fruits. I'll have a full report later. Gotta pretend I'm fixing people's cable.


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## VARNYARD (Nov 27, 2007)

Here is one, but I don't want to do all of your homework for you.  

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.virtualherbarium.org/palms/psdispersal.html">http://www.virtualherbarium.org/palms/psdispersal.html</a><!-- m -->


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## VARNYARD (Nov 27, 2007)

Ok, I will give you more, this is getting fun. :wink: Please also remeber the seed is also the fruit of many plants.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ns.rc.unesp.br/ib/zoologia/denis/Fungiv.pdf">http://ns.rc.unesp.br/ib/zoologia/denis/Fungiv.pdf</a><!-- m -->



> TUPINAMBIS MERIANAE (Tegu Lizard). FUNGIVORY. Tegu
> lizards (genus Tupinambis) are generalist consumers with a diet
> based on diverse vertebrates (fishes, amphibians, reptiles, birds,
> and small mammals) and invertebrates (millipedes, arachnids,
> ...


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## RehabRalphy (Nov 27, 2007)

ApriliaRufo said:


> I'd like to discuss the issue of shedding in the sense of a medical basis. Shedding is the process of living scale cells replacing themselves as mitosis takes place and cell number does not increase, but rather die and are taken place by larger cells.
> 
> Part One - Hydrogen peroxide tricks the body into believing there is a concentration of WBC's at a particular area, and therefore the body sends even more to that particular area. Hydrogen peroxide obviously oxygenates the area and works as a mild antiseptic in 2-3% dilution. The simple theory is that the lightning fast decomp of peroxide, could POSSIBLY cause the loose skin capillary embolisms. This would loosen the dying skin and prepare an auto-immune reaction to protect the skin. This is possible but has not been tested, and would oviously have to be adjusted to the oxygen levels of a tegu. This should answer your questions about decomposition. Hydrogen peroxide always decomposes (disproportionates) exothermically into water and oxygen gas spontaneously:
> 2 H2O2 â?? 2 H2O + O2
> ...



Define: plagiarism

"stealing someone else's ideas and presenting them as your own."

<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.lib.jmu.edu/gold/documents/glossary.doc">www.lib.jmu.edu/gold/documents/glossary.doc</a><!-- w -->


More than half of what you said has been copied and pasted from several sources.


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## greentriple (Nov 27, 2007)

This is awesome!! What I'm begining to understand is that these "little" guys can eat just about anything in moderation.


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## ApriliaRufo (Nov 27, 2007)

RehabRalphy said:


> ApriliaRufo said:
> 
> 
> > Hydrogen peroxide always decomposes (disproportionates) exothermically into water and oxygen gas spontaneously:
> ...










The small amount of info in my post that I have quote quoted was taken from wikipedia. All other information was my own theory and typing. If you have any doubt, go looking for it and prove it. I came up with that on Mack Rd. in Sacramento on my lunch hour.


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## RehabRalphy (Nov 27, 2007)

ApriliaRufo said:


> RehabRalphy said:
> 
> 
> > ApriliaRufo said:
> ...



ok.


Really? Just a small amount?? So far, I've found 3 sources with 3/4 of the info in each of your paragraphs.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070711081813AAVLYCx">http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 813AAVLYCx</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_sauce">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_sauce</a><!-- m -->
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit


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## ApriliaRufo (Nov 27, 2007)

RehabRalphy said:


> ApriliaRufo said:
> 
> 
> > RehabRalphy said:
> ...



I believe that in the last post I made, I quoted the parts of my information that I took from wikipedia. What you found on yahoo answers, was also take from the wikipedia article. This is not 3/4 of my work, but the point is that all of these ideas are mine. I took information on peroxide, fruit, and fish sauce to make my theory viable. Next time I can, put my work in thesis format with footnotes so that you can feel good. Thanks for trying.


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## ApriliaRufo (Nov 27, 2007)

Here. I will make it easier for you to see what was taken from wikipedia.






ApriliaRufo said:


> I'd like to discuss the issue of shedding in the sense of a medical basis. Shedding is the process of living scale cells replacing themselves as mitosis takes place and cell number does not increase, but rather die and are taken place by larger cells.
> 
> Part One - Hydrogen peroxide tricks the body into believing there is a concentration of WBC's at a particular area, and therefore the body sends even more to that particular area. Hydrogen peroxide obviously oxygenates the area and works as a mild antiseptic in 2-3% dilution. The simple theory is that the lightning fast decomp of peroxide, could POSSIBLY cause the loose skin capillary embolisms. This would loosen the dying skin and prepare an auto-immune reaction to protect the skin. This is possible but has not been tested, and would oviously have to be adjusted to the oxygen levels of a tegu. This should answer your questions about decomposition. *Hydrogen peroxide always decomposes (disproportionates) exothermically into water and oxygen gas spontaneously:
> 2 H2O2 â?? 2 H2O + O2
> ...


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## VARNYARD (Nov 27, 2007)

Ok guys lets get back on topic, IMO Hydrogen peroxide should be avoided, it is a poison. Hydrogen peroxide: 



> Dermal
> 
> 
> > Prolonged exposure to concentrated vapor or to dilute solutions can cause irritation and temporary bleaching of skin and hair. Contact with concentrated solutions can cause severe skin burns with blisters.
> ...



I think a proper diet and humidity would be a much better choice than choosing a chemical.



> Persons exposed only to hydrogen peroxide gas do not pose risks of secondary contamination to personnel outside the Hot Zone. However, persons whose clothing or skin is contaminated with concentrated hydrogen peroxide solution can secondarily contaminate personnel by direct contact or through off-gassing vapor.
> Hydrogen peroxide is a clear, colorless, noncombustible liquid. It is a powerful oxidizing agent; when it comes in contact with organic material, spontaneous combustion can occur. Odor does not provide a warning of hazardous concentrations.
> *Hydrogen peroxide is not absorbed by the skin, but can cause systemic toxicity* when inhaled or ingested.



Do you really want to use this stuff?


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## ApriliaRufo (Nov 27, 2007)

Hydrogen Peroxide would definitely be a bad idea if it was concentrated at the levels those articles were about. However the only harm in hydrogen peroxide in diluted solutions including the antiseptic 3% is capillary embolism. Which is like drinking alcohol. The RBC's explode and appropriate replacements are made. I don't know what the ratio of size and thickness of skin is, nor the amount that would cause any pain. So please people, this was just a theory. Don't try this.


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## PuffDragon (Nov 27, 2007)

Aprila,
For the fish sauce, were you suggesting it as a topical solution or part of a diet? I am not clear on the matter.


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## ApriliaRufo (Nov 27, 2007)

PuffDragon said:


> Aprila,
> For the fish sauce, were you suggesting it as a topical solution or part of a diet? I am not clear on the matter.



I've used both. I like to use the expensive more aged for a trick for my tegu to eat some fruit, and I've used it VERY lightly on my iguana. It annoys him, but I cut myself with a stapler by accident and tried it on a wound and I will not use it again on my iguana. It burns like a light alcohol and I don't want to stress my animals.


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## PuffDragon (Nov 28, 2007)

Aprilia,
I saw your post under the Blues Locale sections on using Salt water as as a shed aid. I decided to come back here and post so that the topic on the blues wouldnt get diverted. As for the idea, I think it may be plausible. If placed in a hypertonic salt solution(aka salt water) I think this could be beneficial to shedding. Reptile scales have the same basic qualities of human skin in the sense that it is made up of the protein Keratin. When in shed, I think the skin becomes more permeable allowing the sodium to enter the cells. Thus swelling them maybe to the point of lysis (where they explode from swelling) which would leave the skin loose. There might even be something with the Na- K+ ion transport pump that we could look into. I am no expert in these matters so don't quote me lol. But I am going to look into it.


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## ApriliaRufo (Nov 28, 2007)

PuffDragon said:


> Aprilia,
> I saw your post under the Blues Locale sections on using Salt water as as a shed aid. I decided to come back here and post so that the topic on the blues wouldnt get diverted. As for the idea, I think it may be plausible. If placed in a hypertonic salt solution(aka salt water) I think this could be beneficial to shedding. Reptile scales have the same basic qualities of human skin in the sense that it is made up of the protein Keratin. When in shed, I think the skin becomes more permeable allowing the sodium to enter the cells. Thus swelling them maybe to the point of lysis (where they explode from swelling) which would leave the skin loose. There might even be something the the Na- K+ ion transport pump that we could look into. I am know expert in these matters so don't quote me lol. But I am going to look into it.



Thanks bro. That is exactly what I was thinking. THe only reason it was in the blues section was because it was interesting to see how near water blue tegus were found near. Thanks for input, that's what I like to see.


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## PuffDragon (Nov 28, 2007)

you quoted me lol


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## VARNYARD (Nov 29, 2007)

Think about salt, use common sense, what does salt do to the skin? I do not think you want to soak your animals in salt, you are going to dry his skin out even more. You could even cause it to crack and bleed, just like a long term saltwater fishermans hands.


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## RehabRalphy (Nov 29, 2007)

VARNYARD said:


> Think about salt, use common sense, what does salt do to the skin? I do not think you want to soak your animals in salt, you are going to dry his skin out even more. You could even cause it to crack and bleed, just like a long term saltwater fishermans hands.



I can picture him stranded on an island telling his friends to drink the saltwater, its good for you, swim in it too. :lol:


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## ApriliaRufo (Nov 29, 2007)

I've had it with this theory and I'm gonna find another subject to delve into. My neighbors snake was shedding and he put him in an epsom salt bath for 2 minutes, pulled him out, put him in their other tub with warm water ( no salt ) for 2 minutes, and then dried him off and rubbed RoC Age Diminishing Daily Moisturizer with Soy Complex and Vitamin E. Lol. I guess he took it from his girlfriend and said it's what he uses. I dunno. Salt, peroxide, alcohol bases. All seems to invasive in the sense that they are all disinfectants that can cause a burning sensation. Maybe I'll just try the RoC lotion.


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## VARNYARD (Nov 29, 2007)

So soaking, is better than fixing the problem for the inside? Lets use common sense, let's not give advice that might make the problem even worse, salt might be a quick fix, but then again maybe not. Regardless, what about the next shed? Salt again? That is not the answer.


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## ApriliaRufo (Nov 29, 2007)

VARNYARD said:


> So soaking, is better than fixing the problem for the inside? Lets use common sense, let's not give advice that might make the problem even worse, salt might be a quick fix, but then again maybe not. Regardless, what about the next shed? Salt again? That is not the answer.



Diet and proper humidity is definitely the correct way to go. I was just looking for a fix when a problem comes up out of the ordinary. Like I said earlier though. I'm just sticking with me Vitamin E externally if my gu ever has a problem, but he hasn't so far, and the ig usually just needs a warm bath.


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## greentriple (Nov 29, 2007)

Is one bad shed a problem? I don't think so. A problem is something that happens repeatedly. If you're tegu does not shed every inch of it's body one time why worry, it's if it keeps happening that you should be concerned. Some skin left on the tail, oil it and peel it off. If it happens so often that you need to soak the animal all the time or consider pouring hydrogen peroxide on it you might want to consider its living environment, it's diet and any stress you're adding by poking and prodding at it when all the skin does not come off. Just my 2 cents.


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