# Is the reptile industry and community morally bankrupt?



## Chuey (Jul 30, 2010)

So I have to post this question and comments. 

I think we have too many breeders. We have too many breeders and too many buyers. I know its the sign of the times, but never have I seen so many "I need to get rid of this thing...," "I'll trade XYZ species for ABC..." and scraggly looking poorly taken care of animals on craigslists and supposed "reptile forums". 

Seriously WTF is wrong with a lot of the people in this community. If you can't afford to take care of your animals properly don't f**in buy them like they are a carton of milk. It's with great pain but my fiance and myself spend over $5K a year alone in lighting and proper healthcare checkups for our animals. 

And as a result our animals thrive. If you are a great herp keeper and you have a numb nut friend who loves your snake or reptile and wants to get into it himself but you know he'll get bored in a month, do us a favor and talk him out of it. 

We need to squeeze out all the BullS*** breeders and shrink the source of animals so that the next "clutch" of eggs isn't just a payday to somebody. There's too many addies up on CL of people wanting to get rid of animals who never should have bought them in the first place. 

I don't want to talk s*t but for example we just picked up a chuckwalla from a very reputable bearded dragon breeder and the guy didn't know that Wallas are herbivores and have been feeding it crickets and anoles.


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## chelvis (Jul 30, 2010)

Sadly this not just in the reptile community, same thing happens in all pet sectors. I currently work at a exotic cat rescue we got a tiger in a few years back that was kept in a dog creat and given dog food. Poor girl has bone deformities and has problems walking not to mention that she can't walk normally, she wasn't put down becuase other than the walking issue (she can still get around fine) she is a very happy tiger now. I've seen ads for "getting rid of sugar glider breeding pain because son is no longer interested, will trade for video games or other things a 12 year old would like" WTF why buy a kid a breeding pair of gliders at 12 years old. Dogs and cats are the same way look at the selters. Something tells me we'd fine alot more reptiles in shelters if two things where changed 1) all shelters were willing to take in all types of reptiles (many will only take in a select few) 2) People didn't care about getting their money back (lets face it reptiles are a dollar figure to most and so they want what they put into it). That's why you see the really common animals and cheeper aniamls in shelter and rescues like red ear sliders, ball pytons, green iggies, leopard geckos, beardie dragons. Notice you don't see things like tegus too often or drawf african crocodiles.

My mom says i should be happy that the pet trade is doing so welll, scense my animals are my passion. I'd have no problem making pet ownership and privellge and not a right here in the US most days. Just like driving one would have to go through a class and take a test. Nothing rocket science or nothing just basic care and ethics.

Oh ya one more thing (sorry about the rant here) You can't always blam the breeder, although there are some slim balls out there. Most small breeders do try and find responsible buyers for thier animals. But lets face it people lie and are great at it. Through e-mail its impossible to tell age, over the phone its hard to tell when someone is feeding you bullshit and even in person you don't know what that persons persona is from the 10 mintues spent with them. Very simply put if a person wants an animal as a pet most of the time they find a way to get them.


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## laurarfl (Jul 30, 2010)

You know, it's everywhere. Look how people treat each other....look how people treat their kids. Sometimes I think people would sell them on CL, too, if it were legal.

Not to get hugely philosophical, but I think life as a whole has been devalued in our society.


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## Stef41 (Jul 30, 2010)

laurarfl said:


> You know, it's everywhere. Look how people treat each other....look how people treat their kids. Sometimes I think people would sell them on CL, too, if it were legal.
> 
> Not to get hugely philosophical, but I think life as a whole has been devalued in our society.




I agree completely.

Just the other night I watched some "Killer Aliens" show on Animal Planet (or maybe it was Discovery?). The show was dedicated to exploring and warning people of the increasing "exotic pet release" issue in the Florida Everglades. Which is of course, people purchasing exotic animals, and either end up losing them or realizing they cannot handle them. Whereupon they let them loose in to the wild. Obviously these situations don't only occur in Florida, but the show emphasized that in Florida, the climate allows the foreign pets to flourish. 

I was so astounded to see the number of Burmese Pythons (and other large snakes not native to that area) that are starting to overrun those Glades. 

They showed the governor talking about a Python escaping from it's enclosure in a residential home and killing a two year old in it's crib. And to hear the ridiculous parents go on and on, saying they "don't know how this could have happened." Ha! I'll tell you how it happened.....you purchased an animal that grows large enough to devour a crocodile, and you tried to contain it in an enclosure fit for a few Bearded Dragons at best.

The show did a remarkable job in showing the true danger of the situation, and it is truly frightening.


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## laurarfl (Jul 30, 2010)

Well, that occurred not too far from me and I'll tell you a bit more. The python was severely underweight and kept in a tank without a locking lid. The guy put it in a pillow case or something like that and put a quilt over the top of the tank. Really?! The parents were later arrested on drug charges and many in the python community doubt the legitimacy of the snake attack.

Also, the situation in the Everglades is often exaggerated because sensationalism sells. The pythons are far from taking over the Glades. There may be a number of invasives, but I think the verdict is out in regards to whether these were releases or escapes after Hurricane Andrew devastated S Florida in 1992.


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## chelvis (Jul 31, 2010)

The lates documentries on the python problem blams many of the glade born snakes orginally coming from a facility where thousands of baby and sub-adult burms were accidently released after the holding building was blown over by hurrican andrew. Yes the big albinos and color morph ones found in and around homes where most likly a relased or escaped pets. Even this wild population is finding it hard to deal with the glades though, from hawks and kingsnakes getting the young to alligators, crocs and now the cold snaps of winter getting the adults. The media has done a great job of make this sound like a godzilla issue.


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## Stef41 (Jul 31, 2010)

laurarfl said:


> Well, that occurred not too far from me and I'll tell you a bit more. The python was severely underweight and kept in a tank without a locking lid. The guy put it in a pillow case or something like that and put a quilt over the top of the tank. Really?! The parents were later arrested on drug charges and many in the python community doubt the legitimacy of the snake attack.
> 
> Also, the situation in the Everglades is often exaggerated because sensationalism sells. The pythons are far from taking over the Glades. There may be a number of invasives, but I think the verdict is out in regards to whether these were releases or escapes after Hurricane Andrew devastated S Florida in 1992.




Good riddance on the parental arrest.

As for the Glades situation, they hadn't mentioned the hurricane and I had not given that any thought (which was probably their plan eh? )

I'm sure that could have a lot to do with it. Whether it was releases or escapees though, it's an unfortunate situation. 

Laur if you live in the general area, have you ever heard or seen those gigantic rats?! :yik 

They were called something like "Pouch Rats" I believe. Now, I surround myself with plenty of creeping, crawling, slithering creatures...but a rat that can weigh 9 pounds would have me standing on my kitchen chairs for sure. Yikes. The show DID claimed them to be quite friendly, though.


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2010)

See, now a pouch rat just seems like a GREAT pet to me... but then again, I've always loved rats, and the bigger the better.


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## Stef41 (Jul 31, 2010)

nordica said:


> See, now a pouch rat just seems like a GREAT pet to me... but then again, I've always loved rats, and the bigger the better.



Lol! 

Seems like one of those beasts would be the star of any rat collection, that's for sure!


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## Chuey (Jul 31, 2010)

It is sensationalism. What folks aren't noting is that people from AARK have found that the recent freezes are killing off the big escaped animals they can't encroach areas that freeze over as they aren't equipped to manage in inclimate weather. 

That said I'm against most people buying exotics are high upkeep animals.


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## Wil (Jul 31, 2010)

Chuey said:


> So I have to post this question and comments.
> 
> I think we have too many breeders. We have too many breeders and too many buyers. I know its the sign of the times, but never have I seen so many "I need to get rid of this thing...," "I'll trade XYZ species for ABC..." and scraggly looking poorly taken care of animals on craigslists and supposed "reptile forums".
> 
> ...





Chuey said:


> That said I'm against most people buying exotics are high upkeep animals.



I have to disagree with you. How long have you been in this hobby? This is how it has worked long before you entered into it. 
Forgive me if I am against the taking away of my freedoms. It's not like I served my country or anything to keep these freedoms that are constantly under attack. It's been a while but I think it went a little something like this "I, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".


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## DMBizeau (Jul 31, 2010)

^^ +1

As an active duty service member for over 10 years I will second what Wil said and leave it that so I don't get anymore frustrated then I already am. What right do you liberals have to tell me what I can or can't have or do?


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## chelvis (Jul 31, 2010)

DMBizeau thank you for your service. I'm still debating on enlisting i was in ROTC for highschool but my dad served in Viet and was not so thrilled to have a child fallow suite. I'v put it off till now, so we'll see. 

I have to admit there is no reason to ban exotic animals, hell before zoos it was private collectors that helped save some animals from going extinic. Just getting the word out there helps alot.

Oh and those rats are gambian giant pouch rats, enteresting little creatures really, used to detect mines in their home country. Really interstting work, but yes there is a colony or so of them. Its funny how the giant rats, pythons, and now nile monitors make front page and head line news. But the ones causing alot of problems, tilapia, pleco cat fish, parrot spieces and exotic monkeys don't seem to raise to many alarm bells. Go for the scale and misunderstood to give yourself a good political edge is all thats going on here.


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## laurarfl (Jul 31, 2010)

1) I have never heard of the Gambian pouched rat...weird...and sad that it could really wreak havoc to the FL agriculture industry. There is the same concern about wild tegus and iguanas are already a pest. 

2) I own a Burmese python, a boa, and a small alligator. Some would argue that tegus are too big to be properly managed. I am not willing to sacrifice my personal rights because others cannot accept personal responsibility for their actions. Human nature is such that simply regulating everything will not prevent the evils of society. If that were the case, why do we have criminals who continue to break laws designed to keep society safe? As an aside, thanks to all who serve in the armed forces....your work is priceless. 

3) Being a FL native, it's sad to see the destruction of native habitat. there are far worse things devastating the Everglades and FL as a whole. The Army Corp of Engineers reworking the Kissimmee River altered the water flow connected to the Everglades. The sugar industry further compounded the issue, and over-development threatens the aquifer which is key to FL's wet lands and rain cycle. We have invasive Cuban Tree Frogs and Brown Anoles that have displaced the native green reptiles and amphibians. Feral cats do more damage to wildlife than pythons, iguanas, tegus, pouched rats, and monitors combined. But no one cries out to ban cats, or the dogs and horses who have killed more people than snakes.


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## the enigma (Jul 31, 2010)

Chuey, I'm not going to beat around the bush. You sound angry at somebody and we didn't do anything wrong. All of the members that have posted on this thread so far, and most on this site I'm sure are all responsible breeders/keepers. Thanks to the "Big time breeders" that you are putting down (many of which are educational speakers) the public has come along way from were they started with reptiles. And did it ever occur to you that you are winning about ALLLLL of this on a site that is owned by a BREEDER


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2010)

I used to work for a large pet retailer. For the most part I did not sell $20 dollar iguanas, I sold $300 plus dollar iguanas with full set ups (I did the same thing will all the animals). Every adult got the full info on the adult size and need for and more costly upgrades. I do not sell to children with out an adult present. After talking with them I might try to find them a better reptile for there life style. But no matter how hard you try you know many of the reptiles are going to be mistreated or pushed aside at some point. There are five tegus on craigslist in my area right now. One because it is to large and 4 because they are mean. This also happens with dogs (mean and large) and fish (to large for tank). The only way to fix the problem would be out law owning pets. Or maybe have the government make us have permits and monthly home inspections. As a responsible reptile owner I think not! If there is a blame it should be on the side of the owners not the hobby. Even if they purchase something from a pet store and they do not get the correct info, it is still the owners fault. It is called research. All of the info for taking care of most pets is on the internet or at a library. As an owner it is your responsibility to do your research. So lets not blame the hobby, lets put the blame in the right area.


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## DMBizeau (Aug 1, 2010)

Reptiles have caused far less habitat destruction then the hundreds of species of invasive fish let go by irresponsible fish keepers. As far as morally bankrupt, I cannot imagine how many animal shelters there are in each and every state and the hundreds to thousands of animals in each one. Yet if you look in any large newspaper you will find hundreds more ads of breeders selling more. Reptile keepers are easy for politicians and media to take a shot at simply because we are one of the smallest groups of keepers and reptiles strike fear into the minds of uneducated people who don't know any better.


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## Jer723 (Aug 1, 2010)

Me personally I think you should have to get some sort of permit to keep these wonderful pets we all love, Reptiles are quite difficult to keep if you dont know what youve gotten into, The fact of the matter is that somebody, whether it the breeder or the government makes sure that people who want to buy these animals are properly trained and knowledgeable in what they want to do, As for me I researched reptiles and tegus for years before I got into the Hobby, I wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into. For instance maybe they could make someone get an easier reptile before they jump up to Tegus or Caimens. I just got my drivers liscence, They didnt just let me hop into a car and drive! They made me take the tests and make sure I wasnt going to harm myself or others, I believe this approach could be used for what we all love to do, making sure nobody irresponsible handles this responsibility, sure some people will still make a$$es of themselves and screw up anyways but it would cut down on it alot. And if you an a reptile keeper really do love your animals, I'm sure you would be willing to go through it. Just my 2 cents 

Jerry


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## laurarfl (Aug 1, 2010)

There is just a bigger picture out there. I worked in the neonatal intensive care unit and pediatric intensive care unit before I became a science teacher. I saw a number of preemies born addicted to crack and babies with fetal alcohol syndrome. Then there were toddlers who died of shaken baby syndrome or children with brain injuries because they didn't have seat belts or car seats during car accidents. People just don't think there are consequences to their actions.

I love my reptiles, but people are a bit higher on the scale for me. If society can't even take care of its people, how can society be expected to take care of its pets?

I also need to add that most people are not like this. MOST parents take great care of their kids. MOST kids are fantastic. MOST reptile owners take great care of their pets and are responsible keepers. You can't judge the whole barrel by a few bad apples.


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## eddyjack (Aug 1, 2010)

I wondered when someone would open dialog about "Children" and the comparison. We cannot control any of it, all responsible people can do is provide such wonderful resources as "Varn Yard" offers at this very site and then hope that others will be responsible enough to use it.


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## chelvis (Aug 1, 2010)

"The best way to judge a society is how the treat their pets"


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## Beazer (Aug 1, 2010)

Im a little bit tired and just read this thread (not all of it but some). I kind of have developed an opinion. 

I do not think the government should have its hands on regulating the reptile industry cause they dont know wtf they are doing or how to properly regulate it without getting greedy or out of control. And lets face it, a lot of the herpetologists envolved with government/state stuff are fkin morons. They are usually the outcast of the herp world and their field research only extends to an already over studied species lol. The permits (for larger species/venomous) would be a good idea, however you give our government an inch and they will take a foot. I just like being a free American, not a regulated.

A lot of people I know take better care for their reptiles than zoos and have mind blowing set ups. But thats cause I pick the right crowd (I also tend to avoid herp societies). Just show somebody a wicked set up and once they see it they want to do it that way. Sure it wont always work, but if they see that they will see how its fun. I hate reptile racks (unless for baby snakes) because they are eqivalent to a puppy mill, IMO. 

In a way there are too many breeders.... but not too many breeders of most reptile species, if anything there are not enough of a lot of species. That just feeds the animal planet hype. There are however too many breeders of reticulated pythons and burmese pythons (though I'm sure those animals markets are slowly crashing). If you are talking about large snakes though, since when have Boelen's pythons, Scrub pythons, Halmahera pythons, True Indian and Sri lankan pythons, etc. been a problem? They even make monitors look like a major problem, but if you take a step back, its mostly just niles and waters. Most are rarely bred by individuals or farmed. If you look at it, theres just too many breeders of retics and burms (excluding dwarf burms/retics which are generally hybridized by idiots) and ball pythons. Sure the places might be clean in some facilities, but they are still kept like a puppy mill. And if you get rid of genetic diversity, you end up with deformed animals. 

Just lead by example and show people awesome set ups. It might not work on all but it will make people really get an idea. Thats what got me majorly interested into herps. 

-Jon DeLong


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## Beazer (Aug 1, 2010)

Also, one last thing. It is okay to breed to make money. Its just the manner in which you do it. Say like, if I own rare geckos or rare species of snake and I happen to be good at breeding them, then might as well make money and supply CB animals (not very many reptile species get bred out of control if you really look at the handful that are compared to the rest that arent). I am definitely not going to buy 1 specimen of a rare species that should be breed in captivity and since it is rare, it is going to sell for a higher dollar amount (more than likely) to a true collector and within the captive populations there does need to be genetic diversity. 

And DMBizeau, I definitely would like to thank you for your service to and for this country.


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## Stef41 (Aug 1, 2010)

eddyjack said:


> I wondered when someone would open dialog about "Children" and the comparison. We cannot control any of it, all responsible people can do is provide such wonderful resources as "Varn Yard" offers at this very site and then hope that others will be responsible enough to use it.



I agree. The best we can do is continue to keep (and rescue) animals within our means, give them the best care possible, and hope that along the way we get the opportunity to educate others---so that they may do the same.


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## Beazer (Aug 1, 2010)

Couldn't have said it better myself Stef, education is definitely the key. And for the experienced hobbyists especially, it may be difficult at times but just be patient with new owners and dont act like you are better. We all started somewhere. Use your education for good and not to put down. And for the novice, bitching doesnt help either though I understand the frustration, its better to focus on a good solution. 

Once these animals are regulated and you realize you are turned down for every permit application because you have time to take care of the animals but DO NOT have enough time to take them to do educational shows or not enough money to open a zoo/rescue then you will REALLY have something to complain about. Also the captive conservation efforts by private breeders will drop if they become regulated (zoos really do not accomplish as much as private collectors when it comes to reptiles), which some species depend on them. 

I just wish people would look at the argument that PETA and w/e are trying to use for placing restrictions/bans on reptiles. They are only using a handful of species that are mass produced and making it look like the thousands of species of herps are all bred out of control. Humans are the most invasive and bred out of control species.

Quick funny story for when I worked at a petshop. PETA lady comes in. Freaking out about a baby tortoise that flipped over and I said it will correct itself. Saying Im an animal abuser and the place should be shut down. So I told her to shut up and watch the miracles of nature. Sure enough, with a little bit of struggle, the tortoise flipped itself over. If it was truly in a sticky situation then sure Id flip it. Then I explained to her if the babies couldnt flip themselves then all the little tortoises would be extinct. After that she said she wished she could take all the animals and just let them go outside to be free, so I began to explain the impact on native wildlife and environment, etc. lol. Its sad cause its really the uneducated non-hobbyists who tripped out a bit too much on E or people who still feel that snakes are evil cause it says so in the bible (though it said snake like, not that it infact was a snake but probably more meant smooth, sly, cunning, etc.). 

But yeah, not that I am saying to do it, but it would be slightly awesome if you went straight to the source and called out the snake mill people (big time morph breeders) on some forums, lol. 


-Jon DeLong


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## chelvis (Aug 1, 2010)

AH you had to bring PETA up, the worse group to happen to animals ever. Sorry had a bad run in with them in college. I was working with a buddy who had some finches that were on lone from the Equitor government i think they were Darwin finches. Now up in Davis in the winter it gets pretty cold. He was studying some behvioral and mating display study going on, so the birds where every very well cared for. Two weeks before the birds were to be sent back a PETA extremest let the birds go in the middle of winter. My buddy came back to find all 10 birds dead from hypothermia just outside the building door. Ya letting animals go in a place they are not native, briliant idea. 

Sorry i will stop there, i really dislike PETA with a passion and i'm all for great animal welfare (notice i do not say rights... that can be a whole other tread really). 

I have to agree with whats being said, there is alot of overbreeding typically of one kind and that impacts the whole game. Luckly this do go in fades, it wasn't long ago that baby chamelones were used to adoren ladies dress, and before that alligators were a classic pet. The big snake craze will pass, only question is what damage will be left.


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## ashesc212 (Aug 2, 2010)

I think everyone took what Chuey, my fiance, said out of context and maybe he made a typo or two in that last quoted sentence. Chuey definitely is NOT supporting a ban on exotics because we for one have: 1 tegu, 2 bearded dragons, a jungle carpet python, a king snake, chinchillas, ferrets, and a chuckwalla. He was even going to let me get a False Water Cobra until I asked the NJ government to clarify their rules on rear-fanged snakes and they now say "ALL rear-fanged snakes are illegal." 

I think the bottom line of his statement is that somewhere along the way SOME people who love these animals that they breed were transformed by money into something else. By no means is he accusing anyone on this site specifically of doing so, or Varnyard. In fact, Varnyard is the "ideal" sort of breeder, being available to help anyone learn the husbandry of tegus. However, at reptile shows, you'll notice that several breeders will sell you anything you want without blinking an eye. Do they even care that someone they sold it to may NOT have an idea of how to take care of it? That they might NOT have done their research?

Yes, everyone on this site is here because they WANT to learn more about the species that they possess or are just genuinely interested in reptiles. That can't be said for all reptile owners. Personally, I do not think that some species are overbred per se, and I am not even against playing with the genes to get morphs. My only thing is that breeders should care where their animals are going, and make sure that the person at least seems knowledgeable and has a proper setup for the animal that they are going to take on. 

I think in Chuey's last quoted comment, he was more or less saying that the more exotic the animal is, the more costly and difficult it is to raise. Before you buy, know that you can take care of it first. Alternatively and along the same lines, many breeders must know or have "gut feelings" about people and sell to them anyway. That would be like having a baby, and adopting them out to just anyone. The government generally regulates who can adopt. 

However, it is also very different in applying the case of the government to the case of reptiles. Let's face it, the government seems to be against reptile ownership and if you give them an inch they will take a mile! It doesn't operate with reason, it operates on sensationalism, similar to the python hunting that's occurring in the Everglades. If the government could act rationally, then I would be all for having to take a course to get a permit to possess the type of animal that I desire. 

So, all in all, please don't misconstrue the purpose of this post. If anything, it was a venting session (on Chuey's part) about all the irresponsible pet owners out there who don't take the best care of their animals, and all the breeders out there who sell to people like that without doing a little bit of prescreening.

And yes - PETA is evil and half of the reason we have so many threats to reptile ownership today. They are just so extremist and ridiculous.


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## Chuey (Aug 2, 2010)

Will, thanks for taking my post and TOTALLY putting it out of context and putting words in my mouth. 

Read my post again and don't take it out of context. I'm not saying anything about your right to own or breed animals. My fiance and myself sent 100 letters to assemblymean and congressman to stop the Python Bill which is more than what most people have done besides whine about it. 

For example, If you think petshops should sell captive bred Green Iguanas for $25 to the average Joe who isn't prepared or realize how big they get, then you have problems. 

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://newjersey.craigslist.org/for/1841011195.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://newjersey.craigslist.org/for/1841011195.html</a><!-- m --> Look at this tank the Iggie can't even turnaround in this fish tank. My Cuban rock is not even 2 years old and 2 feet long and my fiance was worried about his cage so much so that that we just shelled out $250 to get him a giant Iguanararium. My Blue tegu lives in an 8 foot boamaster cage. 

What I'm saying is if a person isn't prepared to allow a magnificent animal to be given proper housing and care that person has no right to keep an animal. 

The pet industry makes it far too easy for numbskills to own pets by devaluing and treating them as commodities so much so that the nonexotics like a typical green iggie becomes a throwaway animal. 

"iguana's about 3ft 6 years old healthy with cage about 4ft nice with all lights and heat rock has 3 floors really nice makes a good impression any where you lay it around has enough space for about another 5 years or so.. really would love someone to love him, i will try to keep in touch with if not even maybe buy it back, i have no room where im staying at have no way to move around this is just taking up to much space i love my iguana and always will ...but i have to sell "

here's another ad, this jerk off doesn't have "room" for his igs and he loves his ig so why did he get one in the first place? I'm just sick of seeing ads like this across all species. There's 25 ads alone in CL about Iguanas in the NY area.

Ash thanks for sticking up. I'm happy with exotics meaning if its priced high the average numbskull can't impulse buy it. However green iggies go for $25 and grow 10X bigger. They shouldn't be selling these things in petstores like their hot cakes.


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## DMBizeau (Aug 2, 2010)

If you live in the New York/New Jersey area I am not at all suprised with things like that being on craigslist simply due to the amount of people living in that area. 

There are always going to be people that make everyone look bad, regardless if you are talking about reptiles or any other kind of pet.


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## lazyjr52 (Aug 2, 2010)

I've been reading this thread and I must say that I agree with with Chuey and ashesc212 about this thread getting out of context. Im' not sure why people on here are talking about liberals and the constitution. Never once did anyone say anything about banning reptiles (which would take away our freedom). I personally hate seeing how many people mistreat their pets or breeders who only do it for the money and don't care about what happens to the animals they sell. I look thru CL, and other classifieds all the time and I constantly see people trying to get rid of thier pets because they didn't do their homework (research, got tired it, etc. Unfortantely for people selling these animals you never really know who your selling them to.

Being a reptile lover and keeper I would never want a ban on reptiles, but I would like to see some restrictions put on breeding these animals, including cats and dogs. What that restriction should be I can't say. But one thing I know is that the over crowded shelters , the hunderds of classifieds, and even zoo's turning down animals don't lie. Their are many people breeding for the wrong reason, and I'm not putting anyone down on this site.


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## Wil (Aug 2, 2010)

First off it is Wil, not Will. And second if I read your post out of "context" than how easy do you think it would be for HSUS or PETA to do the same thing??? I'm not saying you are for taking my freedoms away, I just seen your post as ammunition to groups like them. You know, the whole, "See people in that hobby have some of the same views we do" kind of thing. Only difference is that you want fewer breeders and they want NO breeders. 

You said that there should be less breeders and fewer animals produced. Yet most of your examples are of animals that are mostly imported. Green iguannas are not captive bred on a real large scale, maybe with the exception of Crutchfield and the albino iguannas. Instead of saying there are too many animals being produced by breeders maybe you should say that there are too many imports. 

The other side of importing though is that it provides income for thousands of people in third world countries. Stop the importing and you crush a fragile economy. It's a touchy situation all around.

Also I don't see people that usually post on craigslist as hobbyists. Most of them haven't a clue about what they have and most of them have animals that were more than likely imported and not purchased from a breeder.

I can appreciate and understand your frustrations with some of the aspects of our hobby, but please also consider this. A lot of the big breeders are great people and care about their animals. I have many breeder friends big, small and everything in between. So don't take offense to my statements as I am not the most sensitive at times and I can be a little rough around the edges.

Oh and by the way, for those that have no clue, my reference to the Constitution is the first sentence in the oath I took when I enlisted in the United Sates Navy.


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2010)

I haven't sold reptiles professionally for a long time but most of the iguanas were farm bred when I sold them. Is this no longer the case?


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## TeguKid80 (Aug 11, 2010)

It is still the case... Basically all green iguanas are still farm bred. This seems to have turned into a political argument a little bit. First off I will say that I would have no objection to more reptile based laws, honestly speaking. Not the banning of animals, but the closer regulation of their care would be absolutely fine by me. If you honestly would object to a person inspecting your collection and their care once or twice a year I am not sure if you care about the animals very much. The whole taking away your freedoms thing is kind of excessively used in the reptile industry. Constantly complaining about it online is not going to help. Congratulations for writing 100 letters, I don't see how that is relevant though. I don't think this thread was taken entirely out of context although I do think there is no real reason for the thread other than anger and a lack of self control.


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## the enigma (Aug 11, 2010)

Thats good you said what I was trying to say... you said it better though lol


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## TeguKid80 (Aug 11, 2010)

Yeah I don't know the whole personal Liberal vs Conservative thing over this is ridiculous. Whatever some people can relate anything to politics, time to start a "Political Debate Involving Herps" section! :lol: The whole thread is rather wasteful...


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## ashesc212 (Aug 13, 2010)

TeguKid80 said:



> Congratulations for writing 100 letters, I don't see how that is relevant though. I don't think this thread was taken entirely out of context although I do think there is no real reason for the thread other than anger and a lack of self control.



Forums like these are for the conversation regarding any issue related to reptiles. I think it is important for the reptile industry to be self-aware. This is not really complaining, and efforts are made beyond this forum, like the 100 letters helping to prevent a blanket ban on ANY exotic species not SPECIFICALLY listed on this bill. That bill was killed because people who cared wrote letters and did more than just complain online.


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## TeguKid80 (Aug 14, 2010)

These forums are not meant for an immature idiot to complain about breeders which he clearly knows nothing about. Breeders are what keeps the reptile industry alive. That is completely clear. There is no denying it. To say there are to many breeders is simply and purely moronic. Yeah obviously some people like to trade animals, when a BREEDER gets out of a project and into another, they will try to trade their animal for an animal they need for the new project. Likewise, when someone finds out they cannot properly take care of an animal they might want to trade for an animal they can take care of. Granted there are idiots who don't take care of their reptiles, but it's not like all people who breed reptiles sell to idiots only. The whole rant was childish and stupid, end of discussion.


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## TeguKid80 (Aug 14, 2010)

Oh also, I seriously doubt that you and your fiance spend 5 grand a year on a fairly small number of reptiles. If so, you clearly take your animals to the vet quite frequently.


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## ThrillHouse (Aug 14, 2010)

I like the way this thread is going...


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## TeguKid80 (Aug 14, 2010)

Sarcasm or not? haha


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## ashesc212 (Aug 14, 2010)

TeguKid80 said:


> These forums are not meant for an immature idiot to complain about breeders which he clearly knows nothing about. Breeders are what keeps the reptile industry alive. That is completely clear. There is no denying it. To say there are to many breeders is simply and purely moronic. Yeah obviously some people like to trade animals, when a BREEDER gets out of a project and into another, they will try to trade their animal for an animal they need for the new project. Likewise, when someone finds out they cannot properly take care of an animal they might want to trade for an animal they can take care of. Granted there are idiots who don't take care of their reptiles, but it's not like all people who breed reptiles sell to idiots only. The whole rant was childish and stupid, end of discussion.



If you really insist on taking this outside of the scope of thread, name calling, and going tit-for-tat, then fine. I suppose that a 15 year old who poses as someone who is 30 with the digits "80" in your nickname has more life experience than the older users on this forum? Funny, everyone has always referred to me as overly mature if anything. 

Obviously you have comprehension issues and are unable to read the post for the actual gist of the matter. No one is saying that there aren't breeders out there who are trading animals so as to start new breeding projects. No one is saying that is bad. We are talking about those breeders who have a disregard for the animals that they breed either because they are jaded or for other reasons. No one is denying that breeders who love what they do and genuinely care about the animals are not important to the industry. No one is saying that ALL breeders sell to idiots only. Maybe you should go back and read the post again before you run your mouth or otherwise take some remedial reading comprehension classes.



TeguKid80 said:


> Oh also, I seriously doubt that you and your fiance spend 5 grand a year on a fairly small number of reptiles. If so, you clearly take your animals to the vet quite frequently.



Oh really? I suppose you've been looking at my checking account? You see, when you are not 15 and you actually have 2 people in the household who have master's degrees and work in relatively high-paying jobs, you can actually afford to drop $5 grand if need be TO PROPERLY care for the reptiles and provide for their needs. I suppose a 15 year old's salary doesn't cut it? And for your information, taking care of 7 reptiles PROPERLY actually costs a lot of money. Yes, one of them had several vet visits due to an issue he was having but I suppose someone like you would rather that I just leave it untreated? ...and those aren't the only animals we have...


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## Chuey (Aug 14, 2010)

Hey Tegu kid You are pi**ing me off. GROW UP. Your replies make you look out to be some snot nosed, know-it-all, pimple faced, 15 year old kid, still wet behind the ears.

We spend that much but its ok - we love our animals and make sure they they get the best care that we can provide for them. If you can't deal with that then whatever. Just stop being an annoying know it all. 

I think breeders who make albinos are s**theads but I don't go attacking them. This thread was about just noting how angry I was that animals are too readily accesible to so many irresponsible pet owners.


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## ashesc212 (Aug 14, 2010)

DMBizeau said:


> If you live in the New York/New Jersey area I am not at all suprised with things like that being on craigslist simply due to the amount of people living in that area.
> 
> There are always going to be people that make everyone look bad, regardless if you are talking about reptiles or any other kind of pet.



That's a very good point!


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## slideaboot (Aug 14, 2010)

I think you guys are giving a lot of people in the reptile community waaaaaay too much credit. I've been involved in this hobby for 25 years now and I can tell you that while there are a bunch of smaller-scale breeders, like Bobby, who truly care about offering a quality product (yes, your tegu or boa or bearded dragon IS a product to these types of breeders, regardless of how loving and high-pitched your voice is when you talk to to your animal), there are enough large-scale breeders with HUGE amounts of money (well, HUGE, relative to the smaller breeders) to spend on advertising and creating the facade of being a reputable breeder ("their website looks pro so they MUST be a quality breeder, right?"). These are the people that don't care about anything other than your credit card number--not your age, experience, intentions...NADA. They just want to get paid. They work with such huge numbers of animals and money that, in the end, the well-being of the animal is secondary or tertiary to their profits. Currently, there is at least one veterinarian that is KNOWINGLY endorsing vitamin supplements for reptiles that DO NOT PROVIDE the intended / advertised benefits....why? Because he can? Why? Because the pet industry is seriously lacking when it comes to regulation and, as long as it is, HE'S GONNA GET HIS (see: PAID). 

So, what's one to do? Be educated ahead of time. Buy your animals from reputable sources. Continue educating yourself about your animals and their industry (the more you know about your species' origins, trade-history, current breeders/distributors, etc...the better prepared you can be to make decisions related to your animals.).

Tegukid...you're being a punk and need to chill out--throwing out a lot of mean-spirited adjectives and insults does ZERO for your credibility here as a tegu or reptile enthusiast. 

**End transmission


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## TeguKid80 (Aug 14, 2010)

Okayyyy


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## TeguKid80 (Aug 14, 2010)

No I'm honestly not being a punk, but I find it annoying hearing someone mouth off about breeders... It's not like every breeder is bad or good but as a whole they support our hobby. Oh no you can insult me over the internet about my age? Now I'm really going to respect you. And you make a lot of money so you can afford 5000 a year on reptiles? Congratulations that's not really relevant. 80 has nothing to do with age or the year I was born. You're really overthinking my username but that is alright. I'm glad you guys have masters degrees but I don't get why that raises your credibility unless you got yours in something involving animals. Calling me a kid who is "wet behind the ears", is a major assumption you have no idea who I am or how much experience I have. If you saw the list of animals I've worked with you would probably bite your tongue. I am just as literate as you, except I do not degrade myself to actually swearing at you, I was describing your actions as moronic and idiotic, but well that's just my opinion. Slideaboot I don't think you seem to understand. Instead of chastising me and calling me a punk, research all the fantastic breeders that are out there. The good far outweigh the bad, and this is what keeps the reptile industry afloat through all the trouble and strife associated with keeping animals.  And I don't keep nor do I breed albinos, although calling all people who breed albino animals sh%^heads is basically swearing at 50% of reptile breeders these days...


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## slideaboot (Aug 14, 2010)

TeguKid80 said:


> No I'm honestly not being a punk... Slideaboot I don't think you seem to understand. Instead of chastising me and calling me a punk, research all the fantastic breeders that are out there. The good far outweigh the bad, and this is what keeps the reptile industry afloat through all the trouble and strife associated with keeping animals.



First of all, your knowledge or lack of knowledge about breeders is not why I called you a punk. I called you a punk because...YOU WERE BEING A PUNK--slinging insults and such. 

Secondly...if you would have read my post, you would see that I acknowledged that there are quality, reputable breeders out there. 

"The good far outweigh the bad"...that's YOUR opinion...and forgive me for not taking the opinion of somebody who can't understand the value or relevance of a master's degree too seriously. Because if you can't understand THAT, how are you going to sit there and say that you've experienced and seen enough of the reptile industry to TRULY understand it AND expect us to take you seriously?


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## TeguKid80 (Aug 14, 2010)

I understand the value of it, I do not see a need to rub it into someone's face and act like you are superior to them. Hmm maybe I was being a punk, if so sorry about that but I stated my opinion and I will stick to it. I don't really care if you take me seriously, and I don't honestly expect you to. You obviously have no respect for younger people and well that's alright. Many don't. I am sorry if I offended you personally. I in no way personally insulted you. I arguably insulted someone who came right back at me with legitimate immature insults. I stated what I thought about his opinion he came after me as a person.


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## ashesc212 (Aug 14, 2010)

TeguKid80 said:


> I understand the value of it, I do not see a need to rub it into someone's face and act like you are superior to them. Hmm maybe I was being a punk, if so sorry about that but I stated my opinion and I will stick to it. I don't really care if you take me seriously, and I don't honestly expect you to. You obviously have no respect for younger people and well that's alright. Many don't. I am sorry if I offended you personally. I in no way personally insulted you. I arguably insulted someone who came right back at me with legitimate immature insults. I stated what I thought about his opinion he came after me as a person.



I don't know if you are referring to me (I prefer to think of myself as a lady, not a "he" but maybe you meant Chuey) or Chuey but yes I came back at you with insults only to show you how you are treating other people. Of my 900+ posts on this forum, you'll see none of the others were anything like the one I wrote to you. That is how under my skin you got with your mean-spirited comments. 

-and yes, you attacked us for who we are. You have accused us of starting liberal and animal-rights posts and degrading us for it (on the post about Animal Planet). The sad part is that you do this without knowing who we really are and that's why I actually put the effort into finding more about you and why you would be acting this way... 

I am certainly NOT liberal and I am also NOT an animal-rights activist in the way you meant it. I am not a member of HSUS or PETA, just a concerned member of the reptile community who wants to get other people's valid and evidence-backed thoughts on the reptile industry. I am all for hearing other people's opinions, but not mean-spirited ones.

On that note, may we continue discussing this thread without insulting other people?


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## TeguKid80 (Aug 14, 2010)

Yes that would be lovely, although I still think the start of the thread was rather degrading towards the reptile industry as a whole. I am fine making peace. We are good in my eyes.


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## chris allen (Aug 14, 2010)

Chuey said:


> I think breeders who make albinos are s**theads but I don't go attacking them. .




Come on Chuey :mad 

Btw, the dubia have been great :roon 

Maybe if I ever get albino babies I can repay you with one :rasp


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## Chuey (Aug 14, 2010)

chris allen said:


> Chuey said:
> 
> 
> > I think breeders who make albinos are s**theads but I don't go attacking them. .
> ...




Man, I knew that was going to raise some ears. I don't think its right if the animal originally needs UVB, to breed albinism. I can't change my stance on that. If its just a step towards getting the high white without the unwanted qualities I could buy it. I wouldn't really buy it, but would be better about it. 

But anyhow, Its just my opinion and doesn't mean anything though.

Still much respect to you! Glad the Dubias are doing well, feed off as many as you can before winter comes! They get bored during winter and go into baby making mode, lol.


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## Chuey (Aug 14, 2010)

And for the record my stance is the same. Here's a prime example and how we got to that $5K number. Marshall's is the largest supplier of ferrets in the U.S. they have a habit of fixing their ferrets at too young of an age. The result are hormone fluxations that cause adrenal disease right around the 4-5 year mark. 

2 out of 4 Marshall's ferrets suffer from this. They could sex the ferrets and sell only all males are all females to particular stores. They don't though, they fix them and as a result the ferrets get this f*ed up disease. 2 out of 4 of our ferrets had this. Its a $200 vet visit a month per ferret. We didn't know, we just thought they were these crazy little weasels when we first got them. 

Ferrets from responsible breeders don't get adrenal disease in the proportion that Marshall's does. But Marshall's is this giant industry selling ferrets and 20lb bags of food for 40 bucks a pop will they stop their practices most likely not. Because their system and enterprise probably supports $50million in sales and thats a paycheck to a whole lot of folks. 

Has anyone noticed when they go to Petsmarts and Petcos. The reptiles especially the beardies that they sell are getting younger and younger and the price for them lower and lower. Live animals are commoditized like a sack of potatoes. 

I don't support that crap. But I also didn't sit on my arse when they tried to take our rights away with trying to ban reptile ownership. We wrote 100 letters to assemblyman and senators to try and affect change. We didn't sit around and whine on a forum. So at least I back my talk with action in a level headed manner without having to be a tree hugger or an unethical breeder just out for the money.


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