# Added D3 has been proven to cause impactions.



## VARNYARD (Jun 22, 2008)

Yes it is true, all though D3 has many side effects if overdosed; it has now been linked to impactions in studies that have been done. So if you are having impactions in your reptiles, you might need to change your supplement to one that is free of D3. As a side note, whole prey items (Mice, Rats, Chicks) and proper UV removes the need for any D3 additives.


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## Azaleah (Jun 22, 2008)

Wow thats nuts! I feel like I have been lied to. Everyone always says the calcium with D3 is the best... I am definately going to stop using it and just use normal calcium.


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## VARNYARD (Jun 22, 2008)

Azaleah said:


> Wow thats nuts! I feel like I have been lied to. Everyone always says the calcium with D3 is the best... I am definately going to stop using it and just use normal calcium.



I agree, I have been using Herpavite with D3 in it, but I am changing to the new Rep-Cal with no D3 and no added phosphorus.


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## VARNYARD (Jun 22, 2008)

> Rep-Cal Calcium is Phosphorous Free and has No Vitamin D3
> 
> Calcium deficiency is a major dietary problem of captive reptiles and amphibians. Maintaining a proper calciumhosphorous (Ca) ratio in the diet of 1.5:1 is believed to be just as important nutritionally as an adequate Ca intake. The problem in most cases is an improper Ca ratio, not too little Ca.
> 
> ...


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## Azaleah (Jun 22, 2008)

Yea I actually had that at home for my gravid female leopard geckos, but more commonly used the type WITH D3. Now I know better. Thanks for the info, Bobby!


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## tupinambis (Jun 23, 2008)

Can you reference that finding?


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## Nero (Jun 23, 2008)

Weird study for reps changes as much as human study on whats good and whats not good for you. So should I not use dusted crickets for my dragon and gecko anymore? Or is there a minimum uses on d3?


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## VARNYARD (Jun 23, 2008)

Cholecalciferol or D3:



> Chemically, the various forms of vitamin D are secosteroids; i.e., broken-open steroids.[5] The structural difference between vitamin D2 and vitamin D3 is in their side chains. The side chain of D2 contains a double bond between carbons 22 and 23, and a methyl group on carbon 24.
> 
> Vitamin D2 is derived from fungal and plant sources, and is not produced by the human body. Vitamin D3 is derived from animal sources and is made in the skin when 7-dehydrocholesterol reacts with UVB ultraviolet light at wavelengths between 270Ã?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â?¬Å¡Ã?Â¬Ã?â?¦Ã¢â?¬Å?300 nm, with peak synthesis occurring between 295-297 nm.[6][7] These wavelengths are present in sunlight at sea level when the sun is more than 45Ã?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?Æ?Ã¢â?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?Â° above the horizon, or when the UV index is greater than 3.[8] At this solar elevation, which occurs daily within the tropics, daily during the spring and summer seasons in temperate regions, and almost never within the arctic circles, adequate amounts of vitamin D3 can be made in the skin after only ten to fifteen minutes of sun exposure at least two times per week to the face, arms, hands, or back without sunscreen. With longer exposure to UVB rays, an equilibrium is achieved in the skin, and the vitamin simply degrades as fast as it is generated.[1]
> 
> ...





> Overdose symptoms may include headache, weakness, drowsiness, dry mouth, nausea, vomiting, constipation, muscle or bone pain, metallic taste in the mouth, weight loss, itchy skin, changes in heart rate, loss of interest in sex, confusion, unusual thoughts or behavior, feeling unusually hot, severe pain in your upper stomach spreading to your back, or fainting.





> Oral calcium supplements (such as Neo-Calglucon and Nutrobal) are useful for long term calcium therapy but the benefit of vitamin D3 therapy must be weighed against the dangers of iatrogenic hypercalcemia and soft tissue mineralization. The use of full spectrum light sources (e.g., Zoo Med Reptisun 5.0 or Iguana light) or better still sunlight is safer. Monitor Ca ratios on a regular basis





> There appears at this point to be more research the use of oral and injectible D3 and the use of UVB in iguanas, the world's largest herbivorous lizard, than there has been with tortoises, most species of whom are also completely herbivorous. A.C. Highfield did do some studies, however, using UVB-producing lights. Both groups were fed identical diets. One group got only a little UV lighting, a D3 supplement, and calcium supplement. The other group got more UV and only a calcium supplement. Both groups did fine - until the UV output of the tube used in the second group began to degrade. Once it was replaced, and a little D3 added to their diet, the softening shell hardened again. Unfortunately, since D3 was added as well as the bulb replaced, it is unknown from this study whether the UV light alone would have made a difference. From what I have seen and experience myself, however, I believe that it would have.



References:

Alberts, A. (1994) Ultraviolet light and lizards: More than meets the eye. The Vivarium, 5(4):24-25.

Alderton, David. (1992) Turtles and Tortoises of the World. Facts on File Publ., New York.

Allen, M.E., Oftedal, O.T., Baer, D.J., and Werner, D.I. (1989) Nutritional studies with the green iguana. In, Proceedings of the Eighth Dr. Scholl Conference on Nutrition of Captive Wild Animals, pp. 73-81. Lincoln Zoological Gardens, Chicago, IL.

Ball, J.C. (1995) A Comparison of the UV-B Irradiance of Low-Intensity, Full-Spectrum Lamps With Natural Sunlight. Bulletin of the Chicago Herpetological Society, 30(4):69-71.

Bernard, J.S., OT Oftendal, et al. (1991.) The response of vitamin D deficient green iguanas (Iguana iguana) to artificial ultraviolet light. Proc Am Vet 1991:147-150.

Bernard, J.S., Oftedal O.T., Ullrey, D.E. Idiosyncrasies of Vitamin D Metabolism in the Green Iguana (Iguana iguana). Proceedings, Comparative Nutrition Society Symposium, pp. 11-14

_____ (1996) Metabolic Bone Disease, pp. 385-392. In, Reptile Medicine and Surgery. D. M. Mader, Ed. WB Saunders Company, Philadelphia PA.

Boyer, Donal M. and Thomas H. Boyer. (1994) Tortoise care. Bulletin of Assn of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians, 4(1):16-28.

Donoghue, S. and Langenberg, J. (1996) Nutrition, pp. 148-174. In, Reptile Medicine and Surgery. D. M. Mader, DVM (Ed.) WB Saunders Company, Philadelphia PA.

Gehrmann, W.H. (1992) No UV-B from Tungsten Filament Incandescent Lamps. Bulletin of the ARAV 2(2):5

_____ (1996) Lighting. In, Reptile Medicine and Surgery. Douglas Mader, ed. WB Saunders Company, Philadelphia PA.

Heatwole, H.F. and J. Taylor. (1987) Ecology of Reptiles. Surrey Beatty & Sons Pty Limited, Chipping Norton, Australia.

Highfield, A. C. (1996) Practical Encyclopedia of Keeping and Breeding Tortoises and Freshwater Turtles. Carapace Press, London.

Innis, Charles. (1994). Considerations in formulating captive tortoise diets. Bulletin of ARAV, 4(1)8-11.

Kreger, M.D. (1993) The psychological well-being of reptiles. Humane Innovations and Alternatives, pp. 519-523.

Mautino, Michele and Douglas Page. (1993) Biology and medicine of turtles and tortoises. VCNA: Small Animal Practice. Vol 23, No 6, pp 1251-1269.

McKeown, S. (1996) General Husbandry and Management, PP 9-19. In, Reptile Medicine and Surgery. D. M. Mader, Ed. WB Saunders Company, Philadelphia PA.

Warwick, C. (1990) Reptilian ethology in captivity: Observations of some problems and an evaluation of their Ã?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â? Ã¢â?¬â?¢Ã?Æ?Ã¢â?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¦tiology. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 26, pp. 1-13.

_____ (1990) Important ethological and other considerations of the study and maintenance of reptiles in captivity. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 27, pp. 363-366.

Zimmerman, L.C. and Tracy, C.R. (1989) Interactions between the environment and ectothermy and herbivory in reptiles. Physiological Zoology, 62(2):374.

New research:
UV-lamps for terrariums: Their spectral characteristics and efficiency in promoting vitamin D3 synthesis by UVB irradiation


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## VARNYARD (Jun 23, 2008)

The findings by reptile veterinarians, reptile nutritionists, and biologists are resultings are contrary to the claims made by the manufacturers of the vitamin products. 

Also the side effects of an overdose of Cholecalciferol or D3 can be the same signs seen in the lack of proper D3 intake. It seems no one knows how much of this stuff is enough, or how much is too much. But one thing for sure is it can be deadly to your reptile. I can not say about animals that do not bask, but for the ones that do, proper UV is a must, and much safer than products with D3 added.


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## tupinambis (Jun 23, 2008)

For the edification of people who may have troubles reading that bit above, there is NOTHING in the article that "proves D3 causes impaction". There is a warning that OVERDOSE may be related to constipation, which is not the same as impaction. 

It does need to be put out that as vitamin D AND A are fat soluble, then it is quite possible and likely that oversupplementation will lead to harmful effects. But this is NOT the same as saying D3 will cause impaction. In the absence of good UVB and a well balanced diet, vitamin D3 is a good thing. Where keepers tend to go wrong is in the age old thinking "if a little is good, a lot must be better", and this is where problems arise.

However, it can also be said that too much calcium is also detrimental to your tegu's health, as is too much oxygen. Without carbon dioxide your tegu will die. If you don't understand the biological relevance behind these statements, you are likely to leap to the erroneous conclusion that you shouldn't give any calcium laden foods, should deplete the air your tegu breathes of oxygen, and instead give it CO2. These strategies would obviously kill your animal. But they don't change the fact that oversupplementation of calcium can lead to tissue calcification, impaction and calculi formation; too high of an O2 content leads to the formation of oxygen radicals that cause tissue damage and often leads to cancer; without proper levels of CO2 in your tegu's blood stream, the pH of the body fluids will change, it's cardioregulatory functions will shut down your tegu's breathing...you can see where this is going.


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## Harveysherps (Jun 23, 2008)

With grown Tegus I can see where that would be true. But young ones that are growing. I find it hard to believe it will hurt them. Adults I can see that. But not babies and juvies. I can't say I can completely agree with that.


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## VARNYARD (Jun 23, 2008)

Well tupinambis how much causes an OVERDOSE? How much is enough and how much is too much? If veterinarians, reptile nutritionists, and biologists say that these claims by these manufacturers are false, then maybe you can shed some light on it.

I have also never seen or heard of a tegu becoming impacted due to UV lighting, that said, D3 is not a safe choice.

And constipation is not the same as an impaction?



> Impaction refers to the accumulation of dry, hardened feces in the rectum or colon. The patient with fecal impaction may present with circulatory, cardiac, or respiratory symptoms rather than with gastrointestinal symptoms.[2] If the fecal impaction is not recognized, the signs and symptoms may progress and result in death.
> 
> In contrast to constipation or impaction, an intestinal obstruction is a partial or complete occlusion of the bowel lumen by a process other than fecal impaction. Intestinal obstructions can be classified by three means: the type of obstruction, the obstructing mechanism, and the part of the bowel involved.



So yes, constipation is slow bowel movement; impaction is the next step, no movement or blockage.

Double-talking, right Colin?


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## PuffDragon (Jun 23, 2008)

I don't know much on the topic but my herp vet said "you _really really_ have to try and overdose on D3." Feeding 1-2 times a week won't do any harm. I use Dr. Joseph Filigno at Blackwood Animal Hospital, he can be found on HerpVetConnection.com 

I am still trying to learn more on the subject before I form my own opinion however.


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## tupinambis (Jun 23, 2008)

> Well tupinambis how much causes an OVERDOSE? How much is enough and how much is too much? If veterinarians, reptile nutritionists, and biologists say that these claims by these manufacturers are false, then maybe you can shed some light on it.



Admittedly, what is an overdose is not clearly defined. What is an overdose in one animal may not be an overdose in another. Most clearly defined "overdoses" are exagerations designed to guarantee an outcome (usually death, but there are exceptions). However, lets apply your logic to feeding. We all know that overfeeding can lead to obesity, obesity unchecked will lead to premature death. By your argument, then, all feeding should be ceased immediately in order to prevent obesity. Clearly, this is not the advice you would suggest against obesity, is it? The fact of the matter is, vitamin D3 is a necessity, without it your animals WILL die. This doesn't mean going out and drowning your tegu in vitamin D3. As PuffDragon's vet has pointed out, one would have to be grossly neglegent in their supplementation in order to get vit D3 toxicity. You, on the other hand, are proposing the other end of the grossly neglegent spectrum in promoting its complete removal from use. In animals that are kept outside and given a well balanced diet, yes, vit D3 supplementation is not necessary at all. But for those animals being kept indoors, perhaps being fed a diet wherein the nutrient balance is not being attended to, telling someone to absolutely stop Vit D3 supplementation is very short sighted. 



> I have also never seen or heard of a tegu becoming impacted due to UV lighting, that said, D3 is not a safe choice.


But you have heard of a clearly documented case where a tegu was impacted by vit D3 supplementation? Please, point me in the direction of this article, I'd very much like to be properly informed on this matter.
However, I HAVE heard of cases where (like stated before) someone used the ole' "if a little bit is good, a lot must be better" cliche and caused damage to their lizard (admittedly not a tegu) through too much exposure to artificial, high intensity UV. Again, from your logic, beings as we don't know what an overdose of UV would be, wouldn't your argument be to completely do away with artificial UV all together? Oh, wait, that would be contradictory....



> And constipation is not the same as an impaction?


No, constipation is not the same as impaction. Yes, it certainly can lead to impaction. Constipation can also lead to cloacal prolapse or egg retention. Does that mean constipation = impaction = cloacal prolapse = egg retention = herniation = etc. etc. etc.?

However, I'm having a hard time finding the exact source of your claim. I've looked through most of those references that your source supplied, and so far I have not come across any mention at all "proving" that Vit.D3 leads to impaction (or even a simple correlation for that matter). Most of them are talking about either Vit.D3 photoactivation or how supplementation is actually a GOOD thing. Which one is it that "proves" Vit.D3 causes impaction? Your "overdose" quote doesn't even mention D3, I'm supposing the original source did somewhere, but without it's context that "overdose" could be of any number of substances and is unclear.

There is no question at all in my mind, though, that yes overdosing Vit. D3 is a danger. Just as overdosing Vit.A is a danger. As I stated, they are fat soluble, meaning they can accumulate in fatty tissues of the animal and sufficient concentrations of them can build up to toxic levels. Completely eliminating it from a balanced diet is a greater danger. Impaction is primarily a case of poor husbandry in general, rarely has it been attributed to a single "smoking gun". Trust me, I frequently warn people not to overdo the Vit.D3 supplementation as well, but insisting that all supplementation of it should be stopped when the animals may not have proper UVB exposure or a good diet is just as negligent as overdosing the animal is.


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## Harveysherps (Jun 23, 2008)

I have to say I would have to follow along with tupinambis and Puffy.
I have raised veiled chameleons to breeding size and then bred them. Using only T Rex chameleon dust. Keeping the phosphorus levels and calcium right has more to do with things than anything. I also used the same stuff on my Tegus when I had them. I never did use UV lighting. Savanah monitors were done the same way. and I never had a problem with them. Natures mist reptile spray is also a very good product. I would much rather suppliment the D3 than I have buy $40 and $50 bulbs. I will say this. If Calcium and phosphorus levels are kept right d3 isn't needed as much in Adult reptiles.


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## VARNYARD (Jun 23, 2008)

> Musings on D3 and UV...
> 
> Melissa Kaplan:
> Every time I pick up a reptile magazine and look at the ads, or read posts on the Internet and electronic mailing lists, there seems to be some new product hitting the market making questionable, if not downright ridiculous or dangerous, claims.
> ...


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## VARNYARD (Jun 23, 2008)

Once again I ask the question, how much is enough and how much is too much, does anyone have the dose per weight for tegus?

We know it can kill, that is a proven fact, and it is just a real big question as to how much. I don't want to hear opinions as to the right amount; I want to see the facts by studies that it is safe. As for a vet, does he have any studies or the research showing it is fine to feed twice a week? Anything in his medical journals showing the proper amount for tegus?

I say proper diet and lighting are a must, anything less is just an unproven substitute.


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## Harveysherps (Jun 23, 2008)

I can't do it for Tegus because the research hasn't been done. But Leopard geckos and such have been studied. The original maker of the T/ Rex formula was a genius . He sold his product to the big boys and lost out big time. But he had it done for the smaller types of reptiles. No one has taken the time to do this for the Big lizards . You know as well as anyone info on Tegus is limited. It is up to pioneers like yourself and others to test and proves points like this for the Tegus sake like Sandfire did for the Bearded Dragon and T /Rex. The only way to know what you can do is find out. So why not try to raise them without UV safely and effectively. The UV bulbs are way over priced. It works with chameleons and they have a low tolerance for vitamin A. But For several years and generations . I never once had any bone problems or anything. I used no UV lighting. Only the T/Rex powder on the feeders. I never fed them vegatable matter either. I feel you make a good point . But I think other good points have been made also. I respect your opinion on matters. But each keeper should use any means they can to provide what an animal needs. D3 is added to all kinds of stuff if you just look at it. Does it need to be taken out of Dog food , cat food and things such as that too.


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## VARNYARD (Jun 23, 2008)

Harveysherps said:


> I can't do it for Tegus because the research hasn't been done. But Leopard geckos and such have been studied. The original maker of the T/ Rex formula was a genius . He sold his product to the big boys and lost out big time. But he had it done for the smaller types of reptiles. No one has taken the time to do this for the Big lizards . You know as well as anyone info on Tegus is limited. It is up to pioneers like yourself and others to test and proves points like this for the Tegus sake like Sandfire did for the Bearded Dragon and T /Rex. The only way to know what you can do is find out. So why not try to raise them without UV safely and effectively. The UV bulbs are way over priced. It works with chameleons and they have a low tolerance for vitamin A. But For several years and generations . I never once had any bone problems or anything. I used no UV lighting. Only the T/Rex powder on the feeders. I never fed them vegatable matter either. I feel you make a good point . But I think other good points have been made also. I respect your opinion on matters. But each keeper should use any means they can to provide what an animal needs. D3 is added to all kinds of stuff if you just look at it. Does it need to be taken out of Dog food , cat food and things such as that too.



I see your point Wes, but what about wild geckos? They do not bask, so how do they get this needed D3, If it is needed?

As I have said before, manufacturers of the vitamin products are out to market the products, does this mean what they say is fact? Do they know the safe amounts? One claims to feed it every day, is that safe?

What is the safest way to keep tegus? IMO, it is not taking risks with unproven products. Just my honest opinion. :igu


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## VARNYARD (Jun 23, 2008)

> A veterinarian, Dr. Keith Benson, said regarding Vitamin D3 or Solar drops:
> 
> "What I find interesting is that the dose is given irrespective of the size of the animal. Surely this will result in some overdosing and under dosing. D3 is considered (and this is based on very little, if any, data) safe at about 100 IU/kg/week in reptiles. The material in the bottle claims to have 1,500 IU per ml, and one drop averages about 1/20 of an ml. That would be like giving 750 IU - theoretically enough to treat 7.5 kilograms of reptile. Now, I realize that the dose might be higher than the one above, or lower - no one knows, even the folks that make this product  Consider how concentrated this material is, then consider the damage that overdosing vitamin D can do (renal disease, soft tissue mineralization etc.) and I would say that until more data regarding the metabolism of this material in reptiles is know I would choose not to use it."





> Vitamin D3 is a fat soluble vitamin. It is made naturally in the skin of most animals and it helps the animal use and digest the calcium in it's diet properly. An animal getting a well balanced diet, and UVB light or direct sunlight should not need vitamin D3 supplements in it's diet. It will be make enough of this important vitamin on it's own. If it is getting vitamin D3 supplements or too much vitamin D3 supplementation the D3, being fat soluble, can build up to toxic levels in the animals system.





> Mader says: "Hypervitaminosis D produces soft tissue calcification. Vitamin D intoxication has followed ingestion of rodenticides containing cholecalciferol. Clinical signs in mammals are depression, anorexia, polyuria/polydipsia (frequent urination/excessive thirst), and weight loss. Treatment regimens for reptiles have not been tested by controlled clinical trials; currently, treatment should follow guidelines for other species, which often include glucocorticoids and calcitonin. "



You can have chronic renal failure in your animals by using these supplements, it is the progressive loss of kidney function and the damage cannot be undone. However, this is just one side effect, the build up, and overdosing can lead to many health problems, as stated before. Vitamin D over dosage will cause an excess amount of calcium to be absorbed, resulting in calcium deposits within soft tissues, including the heart. This can also build up over time according to the experts doing what little studies that are being done. This may occur secondary to over supplementation or following ingestion of rodentacides containing cholecalciferol. 

Care should be taken not to over-supplement food with multi-vitamin products, as it is possible to overdose on certain vitamins, such as D3. Every reptile has its own requirements, and it is not wise to makes statements about nutrition to cover every one of them. Just be aware that it is possible to over supplement your reptile, and every reptile has its own requirements. Choosing to supplement your reptile's diet should not be taken lightly. This should be discussed with a good reptile veterinarian. 

No one knows how much or how little is the correct amount; it is a chance I am not willing to take. I will spend the extra money for proper lighting before taking these chances.


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## Nero (Jun 24, 2008)

ahhh so confusing both sides have good points im just gonna continue to dust my crickets and mealworms 2 times a week


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## tupinambis (Jul 3, 2008)

Well, Bobby, I do have to agree you do have some very valid points. I wholeheartedly agree that most of the "reptile" supplements available for sale in petstores have absolutely lousy quality control and their claims are dubious at best. Reptile sprays, for one, are a complete joke. Most reptile skin has an exaggeratedly thick stratum corneum that inhibits any molecular substance passing through it. Proper vitamins for animals aren't cheap (or for humans, for that matter). Go to a veterinarian and see what they sell their vitamins for, compare it to the petshops. There's a reason for the price difference, and it isn't because the vet is trying to get rich on overinflated priced vitamins. It's because those vitamins ARE coming from sources where quality is controlled and contents are guaranteed.

That being said, a lot of your arguments that you have presented, Bobby, are contradictory and this is a big reason why what you are saying is hard to swallow.



> Plants contain D2, ergocalciferol. Ergocalciferol has been found to be much less efficient in calcium metabolism than cholecalciferol.



and yet earlier one of your posts had



> in some species, such as rats, vitamin D2 is more effective than D3.



a bit of a discrepancy, no?

You've often touted the completely safe benefits of UV bulbs throughout this discussion and others, and yet one of the sources you copied stated 


> A study of captive iguanas, however, at the National Zoo, found that when they were kept under experimental very high output (VHO) UVB fluorescents, they developed a condition that, the researchers said, would, in mammals, be considered vitamin D toxicity - too much D.



But perhaps the best case of contradictory arguments are THIS current posting, and THIS posting
http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1835
both of which you started on the exact same day. Do you think about your posts before you actually put them up? Here you are saying "no, do not use Vitamin D supplementation, especially as we don't know what amount an overdose is in a tegu" and then you go on in the other post to say "yes, this is a great supplement because it has Vit.D at greater concentrations than most other available sources!"

I'll back you up on the "most pet store vitamins are crap" account, but not on the "don't use vit.D at all" argument. As I've stated, vit.D is essential for your animal's health, whether it is naturally derived or supplemented. You DON'T want to overdose it, but if you have an indoor animal, are not sure of its UV exposure, then some Vit.D3 supplementation would be advised. Also in agreement with what you have to say, nothing beats a good, balanced diet and proper UV exposure. Outdoor tegus have so many more benefits available to them than indoor kept tegus, and if properly fed, supplementation is likely risky.


However, a few other points:



> I see your point Wes, but what about wild geckos? They do not bask, so how do they get this needed D3, If it is needed?


First off, I'm assuming you've completely forgotten about the diurnal geckos. Secondly, even most nocturnal geckos HAVE been shown to bask. It's been shown several times that assuming nocturnal species don't bask is erroneous. Thirdly, it has also been shown in many reptiles that although they may not bask in direct sunlight, that even when living under the canopy of dense foliage, enough UVB gets scattered to reach and impact the health of particularly delicate skinned reptiles such as geckos. 



> What is the safest way to keep tegus? IMO, it is not taking risks with unproven products. Just my honest opinion.


Agreed, 100%. That goes, in my opinion, for overly strong UV bulbs as well. Folks, do yourself a favour and buy good vitamins from your veterinarian. Also make sure your tegu gets good UVB exposure (caveat: good does NOT mean excessive) and a varied, balanced diet.


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## VARNYARD (Jul 3, 2008)

(cholecalciferol) is derived from sheep's wool, this is what is in the supplements, and the Calcium is derived from crushed oyster shell. 

What I said was to use is Cod liver oil, this is 100% natural and easy to digest. Additionally, the vitamin D found in cod liver oil and butterfat from pasture-raised animals protects against vitamin A toxicity, and allows them to consume a much higher amount of vitamin A before it becomes toxic.(1-3) Liver from land mammals is high in vitamin A but low in vitamin D, and should therefore be consumed with other vitamin D-rich foods as one being cod liver oil. This is why we feed beef liver and cod liver oil, it is much better than any of the cheap made but high priced supplements found in the reptile market.

So Colin do your homework a bit better, my thoughts are backed by documented proof. 

As in leopard geckos, you can back it up with proof that they bask? I mean I am no expert on them, but they are desert dwellers and are not known to come out during daylight hours and are also not known to bask at all.

As for three of my so-called quotes in your post, they were not my words but rather someone elseÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¾Ã?â??Ã?Â¢s that is why I put them in quotes in my post. So please do not put them in your post like I said them in youÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¾Ã?â??Ã?Â¢re quotes, I never even said I agree with every thing they said. If you are looking to argue, then beware; make sure you state that they are in fact my words before quoting them as if they were.


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## VARNYARD (Jul 3, 2008)

> Ray Sahelian, M.D.: Source of cholecalciferol or vitamin D3
> Cholecalciferol has an origin from animal products such as sheep wool. The sheep are not killed. The wool is sheared, and lanolin from the sheep wool is chemically altered in the lab to produce vitamin D3 or cholecalciferol.



Symptoms of a cholecalciferol overdose include irregular heartbeats, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, dry mouth, decreased appetite, constipation, weakness, headache, and a metallic taste in the mouth.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vet.cornell.edu/consultant/consult.asp?Fun=Cause_1324&spc=All&dxkw=toxic&sxkw=&signs=">http://www.vet.cornell.edu/consultant/c ... kw=&signs=</a><!-- m -->

Decreased amount of stools, absent feces, constipation.



> Dr. Maurice E. White Veterinary Medicine:
> VITAMIN D3 TOXICITY, HEART AND GREAT VESSEL CALCIFICATION, IN CATTLE
> 
> 
> ...


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## angelrose (Jul 4, 2008)

Bobby as you know my colombian is still not well and having difficulty breathing.

prior to this happening I started using calcium/D3 when I made her food and after a while of using it is when I started noticing these problems to the point where she has a hard time swallowing food now.


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## Nero (Jul 4, 2008)

Im not using d3 on my tegus because he eats several mice a day or every other day. I'm only using d3 on my bearded dragon and leopard gecko a few times a week.


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## VARNYARD (Jul 4, 2008)

angelrose said:


> Bobby as you know my colombian is still not well and having difficulty breathing.
> 
> prior to this happening I started using calcium/D3 when I made her food and after a while of using it is when I started noticing these problems to the point where she has a hard time swallowing food now.



I would not doubt it could cause a whole host of problems in tegus.

I have fed it, but when I found out that it came from the lanolin in sheepÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?Â¢Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¡Ã?â??Ã?Â¬Ã?Æ?Ã?Â¢Ã?Â¢Ã¢â??Â¬Ã?Â¾Ã?â??Ã?Â¢s wool and was chemically altered in the lab to produce the vitamin D3. And that the Calcium is made from crushed oyster shells, well that done it for me. They can keep their high dollar garbage. I will feed mine a proper diet and provide good UV lighting when they are inside.


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## angelrose (Jul 4, 2008)

VARNYARD said:


> angelrose said:
> 
> 
> > Bobby as you know my colombian is still not well and having difficulty breathing.
> ...



before I started using D3 my colombian was spunky and never a problem and now this after giving her D3 for a while. she is still having a hard time breathing. I'm scared she is not going to make it. I have been feeding with a syringe and if it's too much it will come back up. I am still feeding with a syringe and she's been holding on but still struggling to breath and keep down her food.
so I have been feeding with the syringe in small amounts throughout the day.
is this reversible ?


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## Harveysherps (Jul 4, 2008)

You know Bob. Your Tegus get enough sunshine in the summer month's that they don't need to be supplemented even through the winter. Everyone doesn't have that luxury. I myself don't think UV lighting is all it's made out to be either.I have kept moniotrs for years with no UV lighting at all. I never had any ill effects from it either. This subject can be argued many ways and forever. LOL It takes different practices for different set ups also.Each person needs to figure out each situation needs. People in the Northern states can't do what we can in the south. That's why all the successful breeders are in the south. Plain and simple Sunlight may be the key to it all. But what are the people that can't rely on that supposed to do. Should we only sell Tegus to people who live in the south. Someone has got to be the one to find out what levels can be used. This subject is a really good subject. All sides need to be taken into consideration . When discussing it also.


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## Harveysherps (Jul 4, 2008)

angelrose said:


> VARNYARD said:
> 
> 
> > angelrose said:
> ...


How often were you using the D3? How old is she? There are things to consider when giving extra D3. Your Tegu is showing signs of too much D3. I am afraid you may have given too much not realizing it.Most carnivores get their d3 from the animals they eat. When they are adults this is usually enough to keep them going. Young lizards on the other hand can use it. I would really like to carry the subject of How to properly give supplements to lizards . To another thread. There are right ways and wrong ways of doing it.


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## angelrose (Jul 4, 2008)

Wes, I believe I did give too much D3 now. I started giving D3 to my colombian about three times a week. I think she may be around four years of age. she was a juvie when I purchased her and has been with me for three or so yrs now.
the first year I had her she ate nothing but rodents. then she changed and started eating other meats and would turn away from any rodent. during these times I never gave her any supplements at all; just UV and she was the classic colombian. then I started reading alot of caresheets and I started with the D3. here she is about three months later panting for air most of the time. labored breathing. she does have an appetite. I have been feeding her small amounts throughout the day with a syringe. when she eats a 'meal' on her own all at once she will start sticking her tongue out and thrashing her head and some of the food will fly out of her mouth. I place her in the bath to feed her and she has been pooping alot of green stuff. she still looks healthy she has a 'little' big belly and her tail is thick still.
so the only thing I did different with her was the D3.
what is the outcome of this do you think ?


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## Harveysherps (Jul 4, 2008)

I can't say for sure. How long has she been this way?You sure she doesn't have an RI. An adult lizard doesn't need much D3. Once a week is plenty good. Sticky Tongue is the supplement I used . I used T Rex Leopard gecko dust for babies and Juvies. I used it every day with them. But I also don't use UV light. UV and D3 don't mix well. Chameleons will just puke for a day or so then they are fine. The Mercury vapaor bulbs really load them down with D3. So supplements aren't needed as much. If you use UV light you shouldn't use D3 in the supplement. D3 over dose usually doesn't cause that big a problem unless it was really over done.
I used to get chameleons from a guy that used Mercury bulbs. I would have to give them some time to get the extra D3 out of their system so I could feed them the way I wanted. If I didn't they would puke every time. I don't know if a vet can help or not. But if it has been going on for longer than a few days. Then I would say maybe something else is causing problems. It's really hard to say with out looking at the Tegu myself. If you had a Bottle of Vet RX you could use it to help with it's breathing and the RI if that is what is wrong. All reptile owners should keep it on hand. Tylan 200 is another good thing to keep on hand.


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## angelrose (Jul 5, 2008)

it's been two weeks and I am taking off Monday for the vet. also, when she breathes a 'heavy' sound comes out. I appreciate your time and help Wes, Thank You.


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## Harveysherps (Jul 5, 2008)

That sounds more like RI to me than D3 poison. I hope everything works out.


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## Magik (Jul 5, 2008)

Well surely someone must be doing clinical trials on the matter of D3 supplementation?And can I just ask Tupinambis and Bobby you guys know a hell of lot more than me about Tegus but why such heated debates why not try and work TOGETHER to figure this out I know there is nothing more interesting and informative than a good debate but why not collaborate on finding a solution on this as well as The fruit for tegus Discussion?i mean you guys have so much knowledge on the subject of these animals surely between you guy you could find a perfectly reasonable and logical fix to these problems?My own opinion would be give them everything they need such as proper temperature and humidity gradient Access to UV exposure calcium and multi-vitamin supplements proper diet access to fresh fruits and vegetables as well as healthy vertabre iand invertabre that way you have all bases covered!If your animals show any signs of over supplementation make a note of the routine of supplementations reduce dosage and watch for improvement make a note of when the animal appears to have recovered from the "overdose" Im sure that if enough people did this we start to see patterns emerging and figure out a proper diet and supplementation routine without the need of clinical trials(of course they would be needed to prove or deny our findings)How about setting up a thread bobby for everyone to post their feeding,supplementation,UV exposure and other dietary concerns and see if we notice anything????


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## Nero (Jul 6, 2008)

Yeah I would get your columbian to the vet, I would say she could be sick, or have RI. Living on the eastcoast/midwest the air is different and the season change could have some kind of effect. I use to get sick a lot when I lived in Ohio so did my other pets.


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## angelrose (Jul 6, 2008)

you know what, I had pneumonia (spelling?) months ago. do you think she caught it from me ? any kind of connection ? what do you think ?

I am just curious. 
anyhow, that's my girl ! I hope the vet can make her well.


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