confused

[nivek5225]

I am a little confused with the blue tegu. It has the same name as the argentine black and white... Is the blue tegu just a smaller "morph" of the argentine black and white?

 

[hoosier]

right now the blues just considered a locality. its still under T.merianae

 

[nivek5225]

right now the blues just considered a locality. its still under T.merianae

Probably a dumb question but what does "locality" mean? :-D

 

[Kharnifex]

geographical location

EDIT: lol, i guess i only know one of two definitions for locality.

1 : the fact or condition of having a location in space or time
2 : a particular place, situation, or location

 

[DaveDragon]

They're just a genetic variation. All Blues are related to a clutch of 6 or 8 imported 8 years ago. That is why they have similar markings. Eventually inbreeding will destroy them, since it is assumed no other Blues have ever been imported to add to the gene pool. You can only mate with your sister or cousin so many times before genetic abnormalities become noticeable.

 

[DanRC30]

All Blues are related to a clutch of 6 or 8 imported 8 years ago. That is why they have similar markings.

Hey Dave. I disagree. I've seen lots of variation in patterns and colors between different blue tegus. I've seen some with tons of white and others with tons of black.

Also, how do we know that the 6 or 8 imported were from the same clutch? Did the person who imported them confirm that himself out in the field? From my experience, documenting localities from importers is at best very unreliable. If they were adults or sub-adults that were imported, it's highly unlikely that they were siblings. Unless they were found in their eggs in the same clutch, or hatched out in captivitiy from the same clutch, they are most likely unrelated. Has anyone gotten the full story from the person that imported them? Maybe that person can post here?

A simple DNA scan would tell a lot. Anyone know a geneticist?

 

[DaveDragon]

All Blues are related to a clutch of 6 or 8 imported 8 years ago. That is why they have similar markings.

Hey Dave. I disagree. I've seen lots of variation in patterns and colors between different blue tegus. I've seen some with tons of white and others with tons of black.

Also, how do we know that the 6 or 8 imported were from the same clutch? Did the person who imported them confirm that himself out in the field? From my experience, documenting localities from importers is at best very unreliable. If they were adults or sub-adults that were imported, it's highly unlikely that they were siblings. Unless they were found in their eggs in the same clutch, or hatched out in captivitiy from the same clutch, they are most likely unrelated. Has anyone gotten the full story from the person that imported them? Maybe that person can post here?

A simple DNA scan would tell a lot. Anyone know a geneticist?

Yes, there are variations, but from what I've heard they all have the "teardrop", "burnt" nose, and thick black stripe down the sides. Our female has a little more white than normal, our male is a little darker but has a powder blue tint to his skin. The two are very different but share the same markers.

I doubt we'll ever find the absolute truth on what was imported. I've heard there was a clutch of eggs. I'm sure there must be many "Blue" Tegu's in Argentina but they can't be "legally" imported. I think the person supposedly responsible for introducing (not importing) the Blue Tegu may have more to gain monetarily by assuming he had the only ones ever imported, making them rare and more valuable. There don't seem to be very many people breeding them, keeping them rare.

 

[Kazzy]

If the originals were related or not doesn't matter. There were so few of them that inbreeding will happen regardless.

 

[DanRC30]

If the originals were related or not doesn't matter. There were so few of them that inbreeding will happen regardless.

Perhaps, but in the animal kingdom it happens all the time and usually isn't an issue due to their simplistic genetic makeup. The more complex the organism, the more serious the effects will be.

 

[Kazzy]

Even with over time though, the inbreeding will still affect them.

 

[DanRC30]

Even with over time though, the inbreeding will still affect them.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of species that have inbred for generations due to the small numbers in their populations. It all depends on the number and amount of genetic diversity. And when it comes to reptiles, they are more able to adapt to these conditions. Some reptiles can reproduce asexually. They are very adaptive. Even Komodo Dragons have reproduced asexually. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Reptiles">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthenogenesis#Reptiles</a><!-- m -->

At the end of the day, it all boils down to genetic diversity and the minimum amount of animals with different genetics for the species to survive. Depending on the species of animal, a certain amount of genetic diversity is required for the species to successfully reproduce and continue to survive. That minimum number of animals varies from species to species. What is that magic number when it comes to Blue Tegu's? Who knows. If the original 6 or 8 were not siblings, or they were a combination of siblings and non-siblings, there may be enough for the species to thrive in captivity just fine.

 

[DaveDragon]

I won't lose any sleep. :mrgreen:

 

[PuffDragon]

So far everything said here is just speculation. Back up your statements with some hard evidence and then maybe it will be worth while. Until then, it's just a diamond in the rough.

There are plenty of species that have inbred for generations due to the small numbers in their populations.

Can you please cite example? Are you speaking about in the wild or in captivity? What were the outcomes of such inbreeding?

Some reptiles can reproduce asexually. They are very adaptive. Even Komodo Dragons have reproduced asexually.

Asexuality is not not the same as inbreeding and I fail to see where your statement has a valid point as how it pertains to inbreeding. When a reptile reproduces asexualy, it makes an exact copy of it's genetic material to pass on to the offspring. It does not take away or add any variables to the equation. Inbreeding on the hand has the capabilties of creating many different mutations. Most notable substitution, insertion, deletion or frameshift. The downplay of inbreeding as harmless is just dumb.

 

[DanRC30]

The downplay of inbreeding as harmless is just dumb.

I was going to address your comments until I go to the last part. Now I can see it'd just be a waste of time...

Also, I'm somewhat disappointed that a "moderator" would say such a thing. Seems very childish...

 

[PuffDragon]

Sorry I should of said something along the lines of The downplay of inbreeding as harmless will have more negative effects than you know. I was not trying to call you or your statements dumb.

 

[DanRC30]

Sorry I should of said something along the lines of The downplay of inbreeding as harmless will have more negative effects than you know. I was not trying to call you dumb.

Ok. Not a problem.

I specialize mostly in snakes; particularly arboreals. To bring out certain traits in GTP's and emeralds, breeders often will inbreed the animals. Is it a good thing? Well, I can't say it's better than NOT doing it of course. But there are usually little, or no negative effects with this that show up in the offspring. I know many times breeders will breed a male baby back to the mother to acquire certain traits. That's how we have so many of the morphs we have today.

I don't think Blue Tegu's are a morph, but that's not the topic here. The topic is issues with inbreeding. All I'm saying is if it's done correctly from the start, and all of the specimens are not siblings, they will survive and thrive in captivity.

One of my BA's is in Anthropology and I've studied this in humans as well as animals, including primates.

I can tell you for sure that inbreeding occurs in the wild. That information is documented everywhere.

I brought up asexual reproduction as an example of how resilient reptiles are and to demonstrate their adaptability. They are also not very complex, and can handle inbreeding more so than a more evolved mammal such as a primate.

 

[Toby_H]

IÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¾Ã?â??Ã?¢ve always read the story to be that it was 6~8 Blue hatchings that came in at the same timeÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?ââ?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?¦ I feel that having 6~8 very young Tegus of an extremely rare genetic trait found at the same timeÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?ââ?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?¦ has siblings written all over itÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?ââ?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?¦

Had these Blues been of adult size or of different ages, I would have to agree there is no basis to assume they are relatedÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?ââ?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?¦ although even then their rarity may suggest it as a possibilityÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?ââ?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?¦

IÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¾Ã?â??Ã?¢ve only talked to one Tegu breeder who claims to have experience spawning sibling TegusÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?ââ?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?¦ he highly suggest against itÃ?Æ?Ã?â??Ã?â??Ã?¢Ã?Æ?Ã?¢Ã?¢ââ??¬Ã?¡Ã?â??Ã?¬Ã?Æ?ââ?¬Å¡Ã?â??Ã?¦

 

[Toby_H]

I can tell you for sure that inbreeding occurs in the wild. That information is documented everywhere.

And it has been documented that some humans have eaten other humans... does that mean humans are cannibalistic? No, odd occurrences happen but we should not be naive enough to pretend these oddities are the norm...