Reptilian Giants.....AS PETS!?!?!?!?!?

[ihatehumans]

Hosier, you do have a point. Let me modify what I was saying. I hate people who take herps out of the wild that could have been bought as captive bred,

 

[DaRealJoker]

If I can say being absolute in oppinion doesn't leave any room to be open minded. I agree that no WC should be in the pet trade. I agree because these animals are in some places hurting from the "nest raids" and populations are suffering. As for other places where the animals are over populated are a result of that first initial under-pop. What happens is that the animals panic about lower counts, and naturally reproduce to save the species. This then starts a wave of animals flooding areas. As for capturing wild animals and trying to move them just so some development site can go up isn't fair either. These animals need to live in these areas for specific reasons ranging from food to climate. Aswell I do think that kids are far more fearless and ussually loose this from adults influencing them. Lets be good adults. What can we do to stop these animals from being in the market? Write!!! Write letters to statesmen and other higher officials. Write articles for educational purposes. Write articles for your newspaper and so on. As for "Bully breeds", I don't think it's fair to stereotype one species. If anyone has ever met a German Shepard, they would know that other dogs are even more dangerous.

 

[DaRealJoker]

Tux was being sarcastic about the smuggling. He knows it happens. He was just joking around LOL

 

[hoosier]

to be honest with you, if it wasnt for taking animals out of the wild we wouldnt have the tegus we have and love dearly.

 

[DaRealJoker]

Yeah all pets started as WC. So as for any new pets or species, I think we could creat an organization that carefully does the work to make CBB from a few WCs then continue the CBs to be sent to zoos and maybe the the pet trade. Too bad that can't be done so easily, espectiall y for the Tuatara. I like how that worked out. For those unaware, the Tuatara is a New Zealand native reptile that due to settlers was wiped out in mainland areas but continued to survive on neighbouring islands. The Karori Wildlife Sanctuary has a I think a trio of Tuataras and they bred in captivity, not until after living in captivity for almost 30 yrs. That's just because of the animals maturity cycles. But anyways, they are saving a species. This has a purpose. Things that have a purpose really do make sence sometimes. So as for WC, we'll see it for ever. Unfortunately.

 

[ihatehumans]

I wouldnt know a joke if it bit me in the butt! Sorry tux!

 

[BSM]

The lizard king is a good read and very interested, i finished that book the first week i got it..

 

[Tux]

Hosier, you do have a point. Let me modify what I was saying. I hate people who take herps out of the wild that could have been bought as captive bred,

It also depends on the amount of original stock brought in, sometimes more WC are needed to diversify the gene pool and avoid the negative effects of inbreeding, the more inbreeding that happens the more limited the gene pool becomes which therefore increases negative traits.

 

[hoosier]

exactly. inbreeding also cause problems with mental retardation, deformities and poor immune systems.

 

[Tux]

exactly. inbreeding also cause problems with mental retardation, deformities and poor immune systems.

Which are all genetic traits . The more inbred a gene pool is the more chance of a match of alleles that are such traits. It seems all these people breeding really inbred morphs ignore that side of genetics. Increased homozygosity seems great from a $ standpoint when your wanting that new morph quick but along with it comes the forgotten (ignored) downfall, the increased homozygosity at other locus besides the ones that deal with traits your looking for. If the gene pool of a species is really limited like those in captivity which cannot be exported from their native homes any longer, issues will arise, possibly even issues bad enough to kill off an entire species in captivity eventually.

 

[ihatehumans]

I heard someone say inbreeding with amphibians doesn't cause too many problems...I don't trust them that much now.

 

[laurarfl]

I am not a crocodilian expert by any stretch of the imagination. No, I do not think they are ALL CBB, and I don't think I said that in my post. If I came across that way, that wasn't the message I was trying to present. However, there is a fair amount of captive breeding going in FL, thinking of Tom Crutchfield, Nature Coast Exotics, and Glades Herp. It's not like the market is exactly flooded with gators. And I'm sure there are nest raiders as well... (Only speaking of gators and some crocs, I know nothing of caimans.) I know for a fact they are not getting placed into zoos. Gators are ending up in restaurants and department store/boutiques. There's no surprise there.


I'm not asking for anyone's approval or disapproval of decisions that I make in my reptile business. I have reasons behind the decisions I make and the people that I deal with. But I try my best not to make careless decisions. Sigh, it's not a perfect world. I'm sure we've all done things that someone else would find fault with or that someone might not agree with. I only brought that particular gator issue up to defend Glades Herp which I believe is a reputable company. At this point, I still have Oscar, and we are still deciding his placement. In fact, we've been deciding his placement for about 6 months now and he's still with us. He's not a disposable animal and it's not something I take lightly.

 

[ihatehumans]

Jeez, when I started this thread i didn't want a war!

 

[VARNYARD]

Well Laura, I cannot say I agree with a few that you call reputable. I have seen things from two that you named that, well, makes my stomach turn. I would not buy anything from either of them, even if it was free and they agreed to pay the shipping.

As for your thoughts on trading them in for babies, well I will not agree with it. It would be the same with monkeys, bears, big cats and a whole host of others. Everyone wants the babies, but the adults just get discarded, still suxs, regardless of the excuse.

 

[DaRealJoker]

I don't care to have babies as much as others. I prefer adults, or if I must, I get babies I'm keeping. That way I get to enjoy watching them grow. All the while waiting extremely patient for them to grow so I can see the full potentional of any pet. I won't say babies are a bad thing, I just like to see an animal in full growth displaying in all it's glory. E.g. Iquanas look way kooler as adults IMO. Chams also look nicer in full size and flashing beautiful colours. I look forward to seeing my CWD and my Columbian tegus full size, colours and significant characteristics. IMO CWD's are nicer older aswell. I also won't get a pet unless I plan on keeping it forever or equivelant ( :-D ) I had a dog once that I got as a pup. He grew with me for a couple years, but managed to lose me when he bolted off for a few blocks in full heat. He needed to stud. I was at a loss and am still afraid to get another dog in fear I lose that one too. At times I feel like I hate myself for losing him.

 

[MMRR - jif]

It's not like the market is exactly flooded with gators. And I'm sure there are nest raiders as well... (Only speaking of gators and some crocs, I know nothing of caimans.) I know for a fact they are not getting placed into zoos. Gators are ending up in restaurants and department store/boutiques. There's no surprise there.

Maybe the market in Florida isn't flooded with gators but we see more than our share of them up here in the north. Every month at the western Michigan herp expos baby gators are being sold out 50 gallon rubbermaid bins for $65/ea. They are being sold out at each show. Many pet stores sell them, also.

We intake an average of 2 dozen gators a year into our rescue and a good friend takes in at least that many in Wisconsin. Fortunately for me I have 2 wonderful resources for our rescued gators and they eventually do end up in a wild sanctuary situation. One of these resources will handle at least 70-90 crocodilians a year and has to turn away at least 1/2 that many. Crocodilians don't belong in the pet trade, period.

 

[ihatehumans]

Yep...this could all be avoided if crocodilians weren't available as pets. The one rule that government officials could pass that actualy makes sense doesn't get passed (in some states(! Post what you think about Glades Herp in the good guys and bad guys section.

 

[VARNYARD]

Yep...this could all be avoided if crocodilians weren't available as pets. The one rule that government officials could pass that actualy makes sense doesn't get passed (in some states(! Post what you think about Glades Herp in the good guys and bad guys section.

I don't really think I need to, you have a pretty good idea about what I think already.

 

[laurarfl]

That is a shame about the crocs/gators in pet stores up north. The laws here are much stricter and you don't see them in retail. In FL you can't keep a gator as a pet, and I don't consider mine to be a "pet". I did not purchase him with the intent of being a forever "pet" and I began conversations about his eventual return with several people before I ever obtained him. This was not an impulse buy that was "outgrown" or "gotten tired of". You guys can throw tomatoes if you wish, I'll take the consequences of my decision...I can only state my experiences and my opinions, and agree to disagree. No hard feelings here.

To the original poster...you didn't start a war, or at least I don't feel that way on this end. I'm not angry, hurt, or offended. You brought up a very good topic and open discussion is what makes people think about a different point of view. We are not all cookie cutter versions of each other, so we have different worldviews and issues that trigger different emotions.

Bobby, I have not dealt with all the companies I mentioned nor did I call them all reputable (from my dealing, GH has been reputable, but that's OT I guess). I really just mentioned them as a source of captive breeding, that's all. Actually, I did buy a classic corn from TC in Daytona. But if I don't have first hand info, then I'm not really in a position to say anything one way or another about the dealings of someone's business. So I only pass on my personal experience. I'm sure you have known these people on a different level and for a longer time than I have. I'm not asking you to agree with me. I have quite a few friends that I can have healthy discussions with and we don't always have to agree on everything.

 

[VARNYARD]

No hard feelings here Laura, I just speak my opinion as I feel in my heart to be true.

I do not like going to a show and seeing sick half dead animals for sale. If they are a reputable seller, they will rehab the sick ones and leave them at home. I also do not like to see large animals stuck in small cages and half the nose rubbed off. Kind of like a three-foot roughneck shoved into a 20 long tank.

I also will not support breeders of albino lizards that require basking under UV lights. I have a problem with albino animals that must and like to bask in the sun being bred for nothing more than profits.

You call it reputable, and I call it sad.