tegu habitat questions

[Guman]

At Armstrong's that order would be around $53.00 for 2,000 crickets and 1,000 mealworms. They come straight to your door and they guarantee orders in the winter. I have not found too many places that will do that for Colorado. I have never had excessive loss with crickets due to heat packs. However, in winter here in the inner mountians have had some loss with worms but, only if we hit in negative numbers during shipping. (Which seams to happen when I order in winter, no matter how hard I try to watch the westher)! It also works for me because the closets pet store is around an hr. Drive on dry pavement and 2 hr. Somedays when snowing.

 

[Walter1]

At Armstrong's that order would be around $53.00 for 2,000 crickets and 1,000 mealworms. They come straight to your door and they guarantee orders in the winter. I have not found too many places that will do that for Colorado. I have never had excessive loss with crickets due to heat packs. However, in winter here in the inner mountians have had some loss with worms but, only if we hit in negative numbers during shipping. (Which seams to happen when I order in winter, no matter how hard I try to watch the westher)! It also works for me because the closets pet store is around an hr. Drive on dry pavement and 2 hr. Somedays when snowing.

I've heard the same about Flukers, with keepers receiving a box like clockwork each month. Ideal if it fits within one's budget.

Herp adoption places replete with rejected animals by people that did insufficient homework.

 

[Guman]

I've heard the same about Flukers, with keepers receiving a box like clockwork each month. Ideal if it fits within one's budget.

Herp adoption places replete with rejected animals by people that did insufficient homework.

Armstrongs is just an order as you need service.

 

[Gary]

A LOT of inbreeding is done to make these designer tegus quickly. With that, otherwise rare recessive bad traits are not only unmasked but tag along for the ride. Something to be mindful of when looking for pure-bred dogs, albinos, etc., often not known to the general public.

There is a lot of misinformation about inbreeding out there. Mammals are affected FAR greater by the effects of inbreeding than reptiles. Many modern populations of reptiles in Florida and South America were founded by a few individuals and still have tightly bred communities. The natural variation in tegus from different regions is due to inbreeding within those regional populations.

The issues come when you start selecting for traits that would kill the species in the wild. Albinism for example could carry unforeseen issues with eyesight or basking.

The basic “two bad recessive genes” you learned about in biology is almost nonexistent in reptiles—with only a few examples such as kinked tails or fatal genes (which kills in egg).

The truth is that reptiles are extremely resilient from a genetic standpoint, especially when compared to dogs or humans. I refuse to buy albino reptiles that are diurnal simply because I don’t think it’s ethical to have an animal that needs the sun yet has disabilities stemming from sunlight. That being said, even these extreme examples of inbreeding often have no genetic issues beyond those caused by a lack of pigment. In dogs we see epilepsy, hip dysplasia, cleft pallets, and a host of other genetic deformities. Leopard geckos have been bred and inbred for countless generations and rarely have issues beyond those selected for their accompanying physical trait. You simply don’t get that with mammals.

Improper incubation generates far greater deformities amongst herp breeders, but that’s a different story for a different post

 

[Walter1]

There is a lot of misinformation about inbreeding out there. Mammals are affected FAR greater by the effects of inbreeding than reptiles. Many modern populations of reptiles in Florida and South America were founded by a few individuals and still have tightly bred communities. The natural variation in tegus from different regions is due to inbreeding within those regional populations.

The issues come when you start selecting for traits that would kill the species in the wild. Albinism for example could carry unforeseen issues with eyesight or basking.

The basic “two bad recessive genes” you learned about in biology is almost nonexistent in reptiles—with only a few examples such as kinked tails or fatal genes (which kills in egg).

The truth is that reptiles are extremely resilient from a genetic standpoint, especially when compared to dogs or humans. I refuse to buy albino reptiles that are diurnal simply because I don’t think it’s ethical to have an animal that needs the sun yet has disabilities stemming from sunlight. That being said, even these extreme examples of inbreeding often have no genetic issues beyond those caused by a lack of pigment. In dogs we see epilepsy, hip dysplasia, cleft pallets, and a host of other genetic deformities. Leopard geckos have been bred and inbred for countless generations and rarely have issues beyond those selected for their accompanying physical trait. You simply don’t get that with mammals.

Improper incubation generates far greater deformities amongst herp breeders, but that’s a different story for a different post

Well, most of Florida's established exotic herp species populations receive new blood from evermore releases and human-mediayed dispersal.

A harsh artificial selection within very closely related herps will result in problems.

Difficult to assess as yet how many of certain problems are from breeding v. incubation temps, and of course poor husbandry.

 

[dpjm]

Gary, I completely agree with your take on albinos, sun-loving animals that can't be in the sun just doesn't make sense. But I would not say that reptiles are not prone to inbreeding depression. There are lots of examples.

 

[Gary]

Gary, I completely agree with your take on albinos, sun-loving animals that can't be in the sun just doesn't make sense. But I would not say that reptiles are not prone to inbreeding depression. There are lots of examples.

Agreed! Genetic depression is a factor for any organism with a limited gene pool—even plants. However when it comes down to it, reptiles suffer less from the negative effects of inbreeding than just about any other animal in the pet trade save a few inverts.

My point is not to convince anyone, they can study biology/herpetology for the nitty gritty if they are interested. I’m simply saying you should be very cautious of inbreeding when buying a dog or cat, but in reptiles it is far more important to select for ethical phenotypes.

 

[Guman]

Agreed! Genetic depression is a factor for any organism with a limited gene pool—even plants. However when it comes down to it, reptiles suffer less from the negative effects of inbreeding than just about any other animal in the pet trade save a few inverts.

My point is not to convince anyone, they can study biology/herpetology for the nitty gritty if they are interested. I’m simply saying you should be very cautious of inbreeding when buying a dog or cat, but in reptiles it is far more important to select for ethical phenotypes.

The idea that improperly maintained intubation temperature could cause problems is interesting.

 

[Gary]

The idea that improperly maintained intubation temperature could cause problems is interesting.

Unfortunately improper incubation and husbandry plagues the herp breeding community. It can be easy to distinguish problems with husbandry from genetic deformities.

Deformities rooted in genetics have a statistical probability that can be propagated to future generations. For genetic issues you’d expect to see them repeated with a frequency, like epilepsy in huskies. In comparison, improper heat and humidity will affect one clutch, but can be corrected and will not affect the descendants of even the surviving offspring from that clutch.

Husbandry-related deformities are almost always developmental, such as cleft mouths or no eyes. Now something like a cleft lip can be either genetic or environmental. For example, some snakes fail to form properly when they are twins (2 snakes in one egg), but they do not pass on these traits. That shows us that the issue was from its environment (competition for the yolk).

There is also always the chance of a mutation. The amazing thing about genetics is that even in highly isolated breeding pools, variation will naturally arise from mutation. These mutations are not always successful, however. All too many times a breeder will have one egg that comes out deformed from hundreds and everybody will immediately shout “inbreeding!” That’s just not how it works

Edit: I should probably add that I’m not saying inbreeding couldn’t introduce genetic deformities into a small line bred population. That would be silly. I’m simply saying that reptiles are far less likely to experience these issues than other pets, and there is a lot of mistaken identification of “inbred” traits in the herp community.