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Twitching, Tremors, MBD, UV and D3.

VARNYARD

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I have seen this twitching before in tegus that did not have UV lighting, it is not a pretty sight. Basically, some of the animals looked like they were suffering minor convulsions. As for tegu twitching, I think it is well known that Calcium deficiency is probably the leading killer of tegus in captivity. I think it can also be from an environmental problem, such as tegus becoming too hot, and maybe the answer to this trembling and twitching.
But remember, a diet abundant in calcium will do your tegus no good if the calcium to phosphorus ratio is not correct. It will also be a useless mineral if vitamin D3 is not present - a vitamin most easily obtained through exposure to unfiltered sunlight, or UV lighting. However, vitamin D3 is not a substitute for UV lighting, it also can be overdosed if not fed sparingly. Excess vitamin D3 supplementation, especially in combination with calcium may result in organ toxicity.

Metastatic calcification and gout are common results. Gout is a common clinical sign of this problem, (calcium hydroxyapatite) deposits usually appear as irregular firm swellings over joints in the limbs and on ribs, back bones, this also can be seen in the head shapes, often times disfigurement can be seen in the animals. I use UV lighting and I use supplements. This has worked great for me, as the old saying goes; if it is not broke, don't fix it. In my opinion supplements are not a replacement and it is not worth taking a chance. I think UV lighting is a much better choice in any case. However, I do not think tegus would have the same problems that green iguanas have shown. Tegus are omnivores; the intake of calcium is much higher due to the intake of rodents. It is improper calcium metabolism what leads to MBD, and that is because of improper calcium metabolism the body takes what it needs from the bones, thus causing MBD. And sometimes you will find that some reptiles do not absorb enough calcium even with the right vitamins and proper diet, their bodies throws it off as waste. It is rare, but does happen. The deposition of calcium in the internal organs, this is primarily found in arboreal lizards, iguanas, chameleons and anoles. The only terrestrial lizard I have heard of having this problem is Swifts.

I have heard that vitamin supplements with D3 were a great substitute for UV lighting. I have disagreed about this from the first time this discussion was brought up. This only confirms my belief on a way to sell albino tegus with an excuse that UV is not needed and can be substituted with vitamin D3. UV lighting is working to keep healthy tegus; it is also not a risk as with using this supplement. The big question would be, would you depend on supplements that are not proven to be sufficient, verses UV lighting that we all know works just fine? In my opinion, it is not worth taking the risks.

I would say that the supplements are just that. They are not a substitute for UV lighting. For a healthy tegu, I will still recommend UV lighting, as well as supplements. But I will not say you need one without the other unless they are housed outside with natural sunlight. I still use a vitamin supplements however. Tegus fed rodents and that have proper UV lighting do not require added D3.
 

DaveDragon

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Early in our herp "career" we bought a Bearded Dragon from a woman we met at an Animal Planet Expo. She was a first time breeder. she had them all over the house in 10 gallon tanks with no UVB. The day after we brought him home he started having convulsions! We did some research and quickly started giving him a drop or two of Bone Aid every day and he quickly recovered. I emailed her, told her what happened and mention she better get some UVB for her little ones before it's too late.
 

olympus

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When I first got my tegu the people I got her from told me you can substitute D3 for UVB lighting. At the time I didn't know much about tegus but I knew that wasn't true.
 

VARNYARD

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<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://webspinners.com/coloherp/cb-...111/AskVet.html">http://webspinners.com/coloherp/cb-...111/AskVet.html</a><!-- m -->


Quote:
Linda Randall, DVM, ABVP: Is it possible to overdose a herp on calcium?
I have never been able to overdose a reptile with just calcium, nor have I spoken to a veterinarian who has. Reptiles are able to regulate the amount of calcium their body absorbs, and the rest is excreted in the feces. The problem begins when Vitamin D is added to the calcium mixture. This vitamin encourages the reptiles system to absorb excessive calcium, which eventually leads to hypercalcemia, a serious condition. The calcium to phosphorus ratio is also very important when looking at calcium levels in the food offered to reptiles, and when reading blood chemistry results. If you have a herp that requires calcium supplementation, make sure it is only calcium that you are using. (At our hospital we use calcium carbonate, which is inexpensive and comes in a fine powder.) For anything else, consult with your veterinarian first to ensure you are feeding your particular pet correctly. When you read labels, you will find that many of the products sold as calcium supplements have Vitamin D3 added. This is not necessarily a bonus!



In reptiles it is called acute hypercalcemia from acute vitamin D3 overdose this can result in calcification of the kidneys.

Also here is more info: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.anapsid.org/uvd3.html">http://www.anapsid.org/uvd3.html</a><!-- m -->
 

VARNYARD

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Here is yet more proof that D3 cannot be substituded for UV lighting. Watch the video below:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rxhuuIcnTA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rxhuuIcnTA</a><!-- m -->
 

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Kazzy

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I've dealt with 2 reptiles with MBD due to no UV lighting, but they were given calcium with D3 supplementation.

First was a baby nile monitor. He would have what looked like seizures, and could not use his back legs. I had to up his temps a bit, have a lot of UV for him, he was soaked daily (he also suffered from impaction). He had to be hand fed, and I had to mix calcium with water and give that to him through an oral syringe. Luckily, he survived. I had no idea how though. Eventually, the seizures stopped, his back legs started working, and he began to eat on his own. Hopefully he is still alive today.

Second was my tegu, Aidan. He came to me pretty badly kinked in the tail, a small kink in the back, his jaw was a little limp, and he was very thin. Today, he is still with me, most of the kinks are gone from his tail, his back is no longer kinked, his jaw is slightly deformed from it (but no longer limp), and he's fat and healthy.

So, in my personal experience, D3 can NOT substitute good UV lighting, and sunlight.
 

VARNYARD

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Kazzy, D3 supplementation is bad, as I said in the video. No one knows how much is enough or how much is too much, they also have not proof it does any good at all.
 

devine*

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Just watched the video bobby... very sad. I'm hoping she does not have to be put down and hopefully can make a bit of a turn around given a better living situation now.

I really hope more people see the video, poor lil tegu :(

I'm going to change all my UV tubes after seeing this, I don't want to risk my lil tegus safety. Thats another thing that should be known too

UV bulbs need replacing, depends on brand type etc. They also need to be positioned an accurate distance from the animal.
 

Tux

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With tubes I don't risk it, I either use a solarmeter to check or replace every 4-5 months, however I have switched to all megarays and use the solarmeter to check them.
 

ihatehumans

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This is very informative. I always knew suplements were suplements and couldn't substitute UV, but I didn't know added D3 was so bad. I have been giving my leopard gecko D3 In her suplements as long as I've had her (over a year) and she suffered no ill effects. I am not contradicting you Bobby, I just want to know whats best for my animals.
 

Monster Boas

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Bobby Thank you for this information. I own two Arg. B&W Tagus which recently I just seperated them. The male was braught to the reptile room and he did not see UV for a week and within that week he started showing signs of MBD, I immediatly took action placed a Mega-Ray SB 100 into the enclosure and placed him on Critical Care Professional line and 0.1 ml of Aluminum Hydroxide and he rebounded back quite fast. I would suggest everyone take Bobby's word of advice befroe its too late.

-Robert Hall
 

VARNYARD

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Understanding UVB lighting
UVB is very necessary in which vitamin D3 is produced in the skin of animals, and humans for that matter, and this is what also causes sunburns in humans. The vitamin D3 that is produced is responsible for regulating calcium metabolism. Vitamin D3 is obtained through UVB exposure, this is by natural sunlight or lighting that emits UVB light. I have no doubt that reptile species are unable to utilize dietary vitamin D3 through the stomach; they must have access to UVB. A lack of UVB and vitamin D3 can ultimately result in metabolic bone disease in reptiles, or what is known as rickets in humans.

How much UV does your lizard need?
The results from the studies have been done show; they can now make recommendations on exposure times, distances, Researchers have determined the UVB levels required by some lizard species in captivity.

For the tropical lizards, like tegus, iguanas, chameleons UVB levels of 13 to 30 _W/cm2 (microwatts per square centimeter)
are recommended when lamps are used 10 to 12 hours per day.

For the desert lizards, like bearded dragons, horned toads, uromastyx and chuckwallas can tolerate slightly higher levels from 13 to 150 _W/cm2 for 10-12 hours a day.

All diurnal lizards should have access to a minimum of 13 microwatts of UVB in order to synthesize vitamin D3, That is my opinion, if it is a daytime basking lizard, it needs proper UVB lighting. There are some species, like monitors that they claim need no UVB lighting, but I will ask this question, do they bask? In the wild, do monitors bask under UVB rays? The lack of UVB bulbs in monitor enclosures might explain why many types of monitors do so poor in captivity.
 

firebreather

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Seriously, some people really don't know. When I found out a friend bought a tegus and had him on no uv I almost died. He said it was acting strange. I bought him a Zilla desert 50 bulb like the ones I use (Though I have a bearded dragon. But they work for both), and it got better. I was so happy.
 

Tux

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You may want to read <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-summary.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyph ... ummary.htm</a><!-- m -->

even though they claim to have corrected the issues no tests have been done on the new lights so I would be cautious.
 

RehabRalphy

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Missouri
Bobby made a good point. He explains tegus need between 13-30 uW/cm2.

The number 1 seller of florescent lighting seems to be Reptisun. I'm not quite sure what the 10.0 measures, but heres the stats on the 5.0's.

Reptisun 5.0 at 12" away produced 10 uW/cm2 which isnt sufficient.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Researchmain.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.c ... hmain.html</a><!-- m -->

When I first got into reptiles, thats the bulb everyone told me to go out and buy. Now I'm happy using my Powersun and Megaray's :)
 

Tux

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389
I got mine from Reptileuv, I had found another place but lost the link and was making an order anyway. It worked out to be cheaper than buying directly from solartech due to their shipping charges to Canada, mind you this was about 2 years ago.
 

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