Whole prey only?

[Bubblz Calhoun]

Not everything is about calcium but also other vitamins and minerals that are needed as well. But even with whole prey you have no idea of what the calcium to phosphorus ratio of that animal is. Since it can vary from one to the next with the type of animal or insect, because of diet and bone density. Feeder animals get even less exercise than a lot of pets do and a lot of them are fed on high calorie grainy foods which gives them a higher fat content.

Some people recommend feeding meaty meals because you can adjust the amount of fat, calcium, vitamins and what ever else is needed in it. Not just because it's cheaper or easier. Which one's cheaper meaty or whole prey actually depends on where, when and how you buy it.

No where on this site or any other will you find me saying one is consistently better than the other, I choose to feed a varied diet. They get whole prey, meaty meals and what ever else I add to it.

People sometimes refer to wanting to mimic feeding and keeping their reptiles as close to natural as possible, then diet wise for tegus and a lot of other species it would vary. So how is choosing one over the other meaty or whole, not cutting corners or taking the easy way out?

 

[Bntegus]

there is nothing wrong with a mixed diet i just havent had good luck with it. i have never had a problem with rats. sometimes the problem is people just try to hard taken care of a reptile is fun just dont think to hard it will just get you in trouble.

 

[Little Wise Owl]

Whole animals typically have a balanced calcium/phosphorus ratio. If they didn't, predators would be getting imbalances left, right and centre. I do a lot of research into feeding whole prey to cats and dogs (it's their most natural diet) and everything I've read points to whole prey having perfectly balanced ratios of calcium and phosphorus along with the perfect amount of vitamins and minerals from each body part. Not something you're going to get from meat and a multivitamin. If it was that easy, I could feed my dogs ground turkey and a dog multivitamin and they'd be good to go. You don't know how bioavailable the nutrients in a multivitamin are to a tegu either. I would opt for the most digestible and bioavailable source; Whole prey mammals, birds, amphibians, insects and other invertebrate with a variety of vegetation and only few ground meats.

I just personally think the sole feeding of ground meats to tegus and monitors is outdated. Monitor keepers are having more success feeding species appropriate whole prey rather than things like the San Diego diet and other ground meat concoctions. Savannah Monitors are a good example for this. They were fed things like dog food, meat scraps, rodents and whatever else people thought were good foods and weren't thriving. Now keepers are learning that they thrive best on mostly invertebrates with the occasional rodent/bird (not mentioning how proper husbandry also plays an extremely important role in their captive lives).

If you think what you're feeding is fine and it's working for your tegu, then keep doing that but I wouldn't say that feeding a predominantly whole prey diet along with fruits/vegetables is cutting corners.

 

[james.w]

Well said Little Wise Owl

 

[Little Wise Owl]

Just expanding on my previous post....

Feeder animals get even less exercise than a lot of pets do and a lot of them are fed on high calorie grainy foods which gives them a higher fat content.

Same can be said for commercially raised meat. We all know most commercial livestock is fed an inadequate diet typically in unhealthy, cramped conditions. I would easily say that feeder rodents are probably healthier than your average factory farm chicken/turkey...

 

[Bntegus]

very good well put.

 

[Bubblz Calhoun]

Perfectly balanced ratios of Ca;P (as well as other things) comes with a proper diet, with out a proper diet there are deficiencies whether immediate or degenerative since the body has to get those nutrients from some where. If not from their diet then they'll look for other ways to get it like eating substrate (again and other things) using up what they already have (from their own body) and can afford to use therefore causing an imbalance and leading to other issues.

Diet changes nutritional value of any animal, species predator or prey, if it didn't then we would not have malnutrition, obesity and some other health issues. We could eat what ever, when ever as often as ever and not worry but that's not the case since vitamins, minerals, calcium and all, mainly comes from what's consumed. Limit the diet, you limit what's consumed and how to get what's needed.

Most wild animals (predator and prey) have access to what they need, vary what they eat, and how much at different times of the year according to what's available. So that they are able to maintain proper nutrition and thrive. Not always the case in captivity where people choose what they feed. Which is also just one reason why a lot of wild species are typically healthier aside from parasites than captive. Even with animals that are species specific, their prey has access to the right foods. If not (predator/prey) that species doesn't do so well, if both are not able to adapt or get what they need they die off.

The Op and the title to this thread is;

What do you guys think about feeding a tegu whole prey and nothing but whole prey?

and my response still stands, I wouldn't recommend it.

Choosing one over the other when their natural diet is varied (consists of both and then some) is cutting corners. Unless you raise the feeders yourself you don't know what their diet consists of. If your feeders are malnourished or even have a higher fat content, obese or what ever then that's not balanced nutrition. So you vary the diet to try and counteract that.

Livestock, feeder animals same difference, with inadequate diet you change nutritional value.

 

[Little Wise Owl]

Welp, I tried. Do what you want. Whole prey is better in my opinion and that's what I stand by.

 

[Bntegus]

i think they both work. i have a water dragon that i got 2 years ago that was on its death bed i gave it some baby food tell she was up and running around then i tried crickets and worms and she didnt look so good so for the last 1-1/2 she has been doing great on just rat pups she even lives with a iguana and wont touch her food. im not saying what your doing is wrong its just to much thinking and is not going to get you anywhere.

 

[kim86]

Welp, I tried. Do what you want. Whole prey is better in my opinion and that's what I stand by.

Our sibling tegus need to be compared sometime soon via pics! Thanks for the detailed reply.

---

lol somebody posted your picture of tybolt on tumblr...sorry it is off topic a bit but I was looking at the tegu hash-tag and found that pick. Was it you?

That's me! It posts there when I post to Instagram haha.

 

[Little Wise Owl]

Now that I'm not so tired, I can respond properly to this.

Keep in mind with whole prey unless you raise them yourself you don't know what that animal was fed or raised on. From a high grain diet with few if any fresh fruits and vegetables or what ever else. Therefore changing the nutritional value from one to the next including a higher fat content for some.

This can easily be solved by asking your supplier what they feed their animals... It's not hard. If you don't like what they feed then change suppliers or offer a friendly suggestion for them to feed a better diet. Worse comes to worse, raise your own food.

Unless stated, commercial livestock animals are fed unsuitable high grain diets as a staple. So unless you're buying organic or from a local farm, this issue will be unavoidable. Not to mention that hormones (these are illegal for lucky fellow Canadian keepers) and antibiotics (can't say the same for these though) are routinely used for factory raised turkeys and chickens. And I think I read somewhere that arsenic is commonly in factory chicken feed...

Growing fast isn't always a good thing especially when not fed properly. Ever wonder why we see so many reds with shedding and skin issues, or how just about every other day there's a new thread about a tegu with tremors or calcium deficiencies,.... more often than not it's diet related.

Most tegus I see on this board (and others) who pop up with tremors and impending MBD are usually fed meats and what was suggested on Bobby's site. I've yet to see an adult tegu get MBD from a varied whole prey diet (unless it was a baby being fed small insects without UV, calcium supplement and proper husbandry).

Yeah some tegus are picky but they also have to and need to learn what's good to eat, especially in captivity. They wouldn't be as picky in the wild since their next meal is not a guarantee. Too often people give in, try and cut corners and do what's best or easiest for them instead of their pets by sticking to a limited diet. When in the long run you can be doing more damage than good. Since they can be fine one day and heading down hill fast the next.

I can agree with this to an extent. If your tegu only likes eating turkey then I suggest you do your best to wean it OFF of turkey and onto other nutritious food. If your tegu prefers whole prey then more power to you. Again, whole prey contains the perfect balance of vitamins, minerals, proteins and fats. Calcium and phosphorus is balanced out no matter what.

And when I talk about a whole prey diet, I mean a variety of invertebrate (roaches, crickets, worms, locusts, snails, prawns, etc) and vertebrates (rats, mice, chicks, quail, fish, frogs, etc). I'd probably go with no less than 3-4 different types of prey to ensure proper variety with raw meats and eggs only as supplemental treats. Not to mention I'd regularly offer ripe fruits, leafy greens and vegetables

 

[Bubblz Calhoun]

In a perfect world may be, as if people always tell the truth when you ask questions like that. Which is why I said unless you raise them yourself you don't know what their diet consists/ed of. On top of that animals raised for pet food have even less restrictions than our livestock.

Most tegus I see on this board (and others) who pop up with tremors and impending MBD are usually fed meats and what was suggested on Bobby's site. I've yet to see an adult tegu get MBD from a varied whole prey diet (unless it was a baby being fed small insects without UV, calcium supplement and proper husbandry).

Without that they have issues either way, adult, baby, whole prey or not. That's a whole other debate for some.

Again, whole prey contains the perfect balance of vitamins, minerals, proteins and fats. Calcium and phosphorus is balanced out no matter what.

And I said again,... only if fed properly. Limit the diet, then you limit what's consumed and how to get what's needed. When you eat subpar food you get subpar results and eventually it's starts to show one way or another. From too much fat, to too much protein, or too much phosphorus and not enough calcium the flip side too much calcium. Regardless of diet if Ca;P were balanced no matter what (as you say), then there would be no such thing as deficiencies. We wouldn't even be having this discussion along with many others.

And when I talk about a whole prey diet, I mean a variety of invertebrate (roaches, crickets, worms, locusts, snails, prawns, etc) and vertebrates (rats, mice, chicks, quail, fish, frogs, etc). I'd probably go with no less than 3-4 different types of prey to ensure proper variety with raw meats and eggs only as supplemental treats. Not to mention I'd regularly offer ripe fruits, leafy greens and vegetables

And that ^ ^ ^ is not a whole prey diet, with or with out meaty meals it's varied.

 

[Little Wise Owl]

What is YOUR definition of a whole prey diet then... I'm lost. A variety of whole prey as the sole part of the diet, to me, is a WHOLE PREY DIET. Whether or not it's varied (which it should always be varied regardless).

 

[Bubblz Calhoun]

Back to the Ops question about feeding nothing but whole prey. That would be like you mentioned, inverts and verts for some, not even inverts after a while it depends on the person but that's it. No fruits, berries, nuts, veggies or anything like that more carnivore than omnivore.