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Sorry for butting in but eddy i dont think you are included in the conversation. I have no experience with albinos but a mans observations are his own aren't they? lol
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This is by the American Society of Ichthyologists and Herpetologists, here is what the Jacobson organ is used for, finding food and mating:
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I would of thought we were all included in the conversation.. That`s what this is about ...
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montana said:
Everyone is welcome here as long as it is kept civil.
eddyjack
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Well "B" Crazy! if it's a PRIVATE conversation then perhaps thats what "PM" or PRIVATE MESSAGE would be for! Otherwise.............
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And do they use that same organ to smell shadows? Also if you have never had one how do you know they suffer? Wouldn't a suffering animal act differently and not carry on with the same behaviors that they normally would?
The statement that they suffer is your opinion which everyone is entitled to. Just because someone believes it to be true doesn't make it a fact. Albinism isn't a handicap in the way your portraying it to be. Albinism is a genetic mutation of the alleles, it is a handicap for wild animals though as they are easy targets for predators.
And if you think I have an albino strictly for profit you are way off base. I have one most of all because I like them. If you don't agree with it there is nothing I can do or say to change that.
Oh and by the way do you honestly think I don't know what the jacobson organ is?
The statement that they suffer is your opinion which everyone is entitled to. Just because someone believes it to be true doesn't make it a fact. Albinism isn't a handicap in the way your portraying it to be. Albinism is a genetic mutation of the alleles, it is a handicap for wild animals though as they are easy targets for predators.
And if you think I have an albino strictly for profit you are way off base. I have one most of all because I like them. If you don't agree with it there is nothing I can do or say to change that.
Oh and by the way do you honestly think I don't know what the jacobson organ is?
eddyjack
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:-D As said before, you are right!
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eddyjack said:
Did you see my post above? We will keep it civil here, personal attacks are not needed, this goes for everyone.
Albinism is a handicap for any sun loving creature, including us. Wil, you need to learn about Albinism and the Jacobson organ. As for your admission of your animal seeing shadows, is this the same as a normal tegu? No, it is a handicap, just as it is in people that are also, as you say legally blind. Is it fair to create an animal knowing beforehand that it will not be 100% normal? Where are the morals in the reptile world, are they just all gone?
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What exactly do I need to learn about the jacobson organ? I know what it is and what it is used for. It is how a komodo tracks a dying cape buffalo or how reptiles pick up the pheromones of a receptive female.
I also have a fairly good grasp on the concepts of genetics.
And no, the definition of albinism isn't handicap. The handicap of vision is caused by the albinism. And I don't recall calling him normal.
Are you questioning my morality? Do I not have the right to prove or disprove any of these claims that are always floating around. Maybe your right, maybe I don't have any morals or integrity, let me look on my DD214 and see what it says. Out of curiosity, what does yours say?
I do have another question though. Didn't you start producing tegus only 2 years before me?
I also have a fairly good grasp on the concepts of genetics.
And no, the definition of albinism isn't handicap. The handicap of vision is caused by the albinism. And I don't recall calling him normal.
Are you questioning my morality? Do I not have the right to prove or disprove any of these claims that are always floating around. Maybe your right, maybe I don't have any morals or integrity, let me look on my DD214 and see what it says. Out of curiosity, what does yours say?
I do have another question though. Didn't you start producing tegus only 2 years before me?
tora
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Just because they aren't acting any different doesn't mean they're not suffering. Most animals try their hardest to ignore it and live life as normal. I had a dog with a bad liver for a little bit and she seemed as happy as could be till the day she passed. Lizards show even less emotion than a dog would. It is hard wired to bask, even if it causes discomfort. It's not going to hide in the shadows and slowly die just because that's it's only other option.
I know it would sure suck living sensitive to bright light (at times I already am, I get some killer headaches from it), and I don't even like the sun, lol.
I know it would sure suck living sensitive to bright light (at times I already am, I get some killer headaches from it), and I don't even like the sun, lol.
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You are right Tora, reptiles mask many things that they may suffer from. All that I can speak of is my own experiences. My albino is almost never basking in direct sunlight and if he does it is for short periods, but then again most all of my tegus do that. They all are pretty inactive during the hottest parts of the day, but then again that is what my tegu do.
There are a lot of people in the reptile trade that just see the animals as a way to make money. There are a lot of dishonest people that thrive by ripping people off, always has been and always will be.
I guess my whole point of this back and forth has been that everyone has their own opinions and I respect that, just give me the same courtesy. I know a lot of people look at things with emotion, I tend to look at things from an analytical standpoint and like to have tangible proof of things, usually the only way to do that is to do it yourself. Everything that I have said has been my observations which is the best way to learn from the animals you work with. That way I am not bound to a "care sheet" or how someone else does things. Just like I don't expect anyone to do things the way I do them, because if I am wrong that responsibility should fall upon me and nobody else. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong, but until that time, one way or the other, I stand behind my observations.
There are a lot of people in the reptile trade that just see the animals as a way to make money. There are a lot of dishonest people that thrive by ripping people off, always has been and always will be.
I guess my whole point of this back and forth has been that everyone has their own opinions and I respect that, just give me the same courtesy. I know a lot of people look at things with emotion, I tend to look at things from an analytical standpoint and like to have tangible proof of things, usually the only way to do that is to do it yourself. Everything that I have said has been my observations which is the best way to learn from the animals you work with. That way I am not bound to a "care sheet" or how someone else does things. Just like I don't expect anyone to do things the way I do them, because if I am wrong that responsibility should fall upon me and nobody else. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong, but until that time, one way or the other, I stand behind my observations.
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You asked me how your tegu bred and chased females, I explained that it is by his Jacobson organ. If you knew about the Jacobson organ, then why did you ask how he can do it being blind?
With albinism animals and humans do not have normal vision. Albinism is associated with a number of vision defects, such as photophobia, nystagmus and astigmatism. These defects are found in animals from birth or from hatching. However animals with Albinism also have no melanin or color pigmentation in the eye that would protect the eye from bright light, as found with (UVB) this too causes more problems with an animal dealing with being an albino.
The lack of skin pigmentation makes the animal more susceptible to sunburn and skin cancers. Because individuals with albinism have skin that partially or entirely lacks the dark pigment melanin, which helps protect the skin from ultraviolet radiation, their skin can burn more easily from overexposure. As with dogs cats and a whole host of other animals, deafness is also found to be a problem when dealing with Albinism. Albinism is a genetic defect, it is not something that should be sought after, or treasured as a gift.
Albinism is a handicap, regardless of the type of animal or human, you can choose not to see it or except the facts. Either way, they are not living a normal life, nor can they when they are not a normal healthy animal.
I will not condone breeding handicap animals, or inbreeding, really there is no excuse for it, regardless who you are. Your animal is handicapped, you can turn a blind eye to that fact, or make excuses why it is OK to breed them, but in the end that is the facts.
Albino tegus, iguanas, monitors and gators are created for profit, there is no excuse for breeding these animals, except monetary gain. It is not my opinion, it is the way it is.
You claim to know about Albinism, then why not admit to these facts about Albinism?
This is not going to turn into a personal attack, and I am not attacking you. If you want to make this personal, then be warned I will not allow it here. I am stating the facts of why Albinism should be avoided at all costs. You say it is based on opinion, it is not based on opinion at all, it is based on the facts of life with these animals. They are a handicap, and will never live a normal life as a normal healthy tegu does, fact, not opinion.
With albinism animals and humans do not have normal vision. Albinism is associated with a number of vision defects, such as photophobia, nystagmus and astigmatism. These defects are found in animals from birth or from hatching. However animals with Albinism also have no melanin or color pigmentation in the eye that would protect the eye from bright light, as found with (UVB) this too causes more problems with an animal dealing with being an albino.
The lack of skin pigmentation makes the animal more susceptible to sunburn and skin cancers. Because individuals with albinism have skin that partially or entirely lacks the dark pigment melanin, which helps protect the skin from ultraviolet radiation, their skin can burn more easily from overexposure. As with dogs cats and a whole host of other animals, deafness is also found to be a problem when dealing with Albinism. Albinism is a genetic defect, it is not something that should be sought after, or treasured as a gift.
Albinism is a handicap, regardless of the type of animal or human, you can choose not to see it or except the facts. Either way, they are not living a normal life, nor can they when they are not a normal healthy animal.
I will not condone breeding handicap animals, or inbreeding, really there is no excuse for it, regardless who you are. Your animal is handicapped, you can turn a blind eye to that fact, or make excuses why it is OK to breed them, but in the end that is the facts.
Albino tegus, iguanas, monitors and gators are created for profit, there is no excuse for breeding these animals, except monetary gain. It is not my opinion, it is the way it is.
You claim to know about Albinism, then why not admit to these facts about Albinism?
This is not going to turn into a personal attack, and I am not attacking you. If you want to make this personal, then be warned I will not allow it here. I am stating the facts of why Albinism should be avoided at all costs. You say it is based on opinion, it is not based on opinion at all, it is based on the facts of life with these animals. They are a handicap, and will never live a normal life as a normal healthy tegu does, fact, not opinion.
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Wow boys calm down, Just gonna through in my two cents in albinos here.
I had a female albino named Ally who i too thought had decent vision. I would hold a mouse out for her and she would hit it on the second try with little problem. My norml blue who i know has great vision often misses but i think his jsut lazy. But every time i gave her ground meat or fe her out of a bowl the tounge would flicker like crazy and she would look like she was tracking the smell. Now my male on the other hand see the bowl gets to the bowl flicks his tounge once on the food, aggress its food and eats it.
Now i remember Bobby telling me about the rat test cause he mentioned all albinos are blind. So i pulled my male out, they lived togeather in the off season and i didnt want him hinting that there is food. She enough a few mintues later i came back with a rat dangled it behind the glass and nothing, she just kept basking and this was on a feeding day.
My male Bosco loves to chase around a laser pointer i have of the cat, it makes the shape of a dragon fly so its a fairly large spot. he'll chase it aorund outside the enclosure or inside. I tried the same with ally before i sold her (to someone who had albion tegus in the past and wanted one, i had a few people back out when i told them about her vision... dont blame them). She didn't even notice it.
As for shadows are they from you walking by or someone entering or leaving a room, becuase all though Ally im sure could not see, her hearing was amamazing. If my gerbil was running thorugh his cage (no wheel to noise to sleep too) she would **** her head in the direction of the noice. So maybe yours isnt seeing shadows but hearing the changes the make these shadows... who knows though.
Just my notes on one single albino animal, you'd have to test hundreds to get a deff answer.
I had a female albino named Ally who i too thought had decent vision. I would hold a mouse out for her and she would hit it on the second try with little problem. My norml blue who i know has great vision often misses but i think his jsut lazy. But every time i gave her ground meat or fe her out of a bowl the tounge would flicker like crazy and she would look like she was tracking the smell. Now my male on the other hand see the bowl gets to the bowl flicks his tounge once on the food, aggress its food and eats it.
Now i remember Bobby telling me about the rat test cause he mentioned all albinos are blind. So i pulled my male out, they lived togeather in the off season and i didnt want him hinting that there is food. She enough a few mintues later i came back with a rat dangled it behind the glass and nothing, she just kept basking and this was on a feeding day.
My male Bosco loves to chase around a laser pointer i have of the cat, it makes the shape of a dragon fly so its a fairly large spot. he'll chase it aorund outside the enclosure or inside. I tried the same with ally before i sold her (to someone who had albion tegus in the past and wanted one, i had a few people back out when i told them about her vision... dont blame them). She didn't even notice it.
As for shadows are they from you walking by or someone entering or leaving a room, becuase all though Ally im sure could not see, her hearing was amamazing. If my gerbil was running thorugh his cage (no wheel to noise to sleep too) she would **** her head in the direction of the noice. So maybe yours isnt seeing shadows but hearing the changes the make these shadows... who knows though.
Just my notes on one single albino animal, you'd have to test hundreds to get a deff answer.
eddyjack
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So.............how bout that weather out there? Can ya believe it?
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Up here we got snow up to the balls on a tall Indian ...
eddyjack
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Ha ha Ha Ha Ha ha!! Snow is here as of today!!! My Tegu can't decide what to do, eat and stay up for a couple day's or just say screw it n go to sleep!
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I am in San Diego mountain area and they are talkin bout snow this weekend... gonna be another long winter by the looks of it.
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I never once asked how he bred, never even said that he bred. I said "chase" not seek out but chase. His reactions to my shadow and the rake was all outside. And when he was chasing the female he wasn't flicking his tongue so how exactly was he using the jacobson organ?
I have not once denied the fact about his vision either. So I am a little confused on what you want me to admit to about albinism. Albinism is a recessive trait that can be found in any animal. How is it possible that there has been adult albino animals found in the wild? Seems to me that they must have been living a pretty normal life, the fact that albinos don't normally survive in the wild isn't because of the handicap that has been stated in this thread, it is because of the handicap of not being able to blend into the surroundings. It makes them easy prey for predators and lousy at catching prey if they are not herbivorous.
I don't need to make excuses because whether or not I breed any albino is my decision and my decision alone. if someone doesn't agree with it they have the choice not to look at them or purchase them. Nobody can judge the morally of anything with the exception of 1, everyone else's views are just opinions, and that is a fact. And not everyone is in it just for the profit, but if profit wasn't a factor in breeding everyone would sell enough to meet their expenses of the collection and give away the rest. If anyone were to disagree I would have to throw a BS flag.
I consider this more of a debate, wouldn't you? You are stating your side and providing reasons to back it up, just as well as I am.
Somebody sent me a link that I thought I would share. I found it just a tad hypocritical.
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I have not once denied the fact about his vision either. So I am a little confused on what you want me to admit to about albinism. Albinism is a recessive trait that can be found in any animal. How is it possible that there has been adult albino animals found in the wild? Seems to me that they must have been living a pretty normal life, the fact that albinos don't normally survive in the wild isn't because of the handicap that has been stated in this thread, it is because of the handicap of not being able to blend into the surroundings. It makes them easy prey for predators and lousy at catching prey if they are not herbivorous.
I don't need to make excuses because whether or not I breed any albino is my decision and my decision alone. if someone doesn't agree with it they have the choice not to look at them or purchase them. Nobody can judge the morally of anything with the exception of 1, everyone else's views are just opinions, and that is a fact. And not everyone is in it just for the profit, but if profit wasn't a factor in breeding everyone would sell enough to meet their expenses of the collection and give away the rest. If anyone were to disagree I would have to throw a BS flag.
I consider this more of a debate, wouldn't you? You are stating your side and providing reasons to back it up, just as well as I am.
VARNYARD said:
Somebody sent me a link that I thought I would share. I found it just a tad hypocritical.
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I'm personally very fond of the appearance of a white Tegu... but there are 'cons' to that 'pro' which I have to consider...
Wil, although I see your point that 'the glass test' will not be 'all inclusive', I would be interested to see/hear/read the results of this test with your Albino. I hope you try it out and share the results.
Another 'test' you could try is to tie a string to a ball (or other object) and throw the ball at the Tegu, ensuring the string will stop the ball from actually hitting the Tegu. While 'the glass test' would require the albino to see well enough to identify the rat as food, this 'ball' test would only require the albino to tell there is something flying at his head. You will likely want to perform this test on a normal Tegu as well as I've never thrown anything at my Tegu so I'm not sure what the 'normal' response whould be...
I understand that a lack of melanin makes Tegus (or any albino) vulnerable to sunburn, skin cancer and other issues related to sunlight (or artificial supplements).
But I wonder if... due to the vulnerability to UVB, do they get the full volume of what they need from the sun (or artificial supplement) through far shorter exposure to the sun (or artificial supplements)?
So could a weaker UVB kept farther from the albino animal give them what they need, while not being great enough to harm them?
I give great value to the facts Bobby (and others) have shared, but I do not believe that a single all enclusive conclusion is the only responsible conclusion that can be drawn. I look forward to further discussion on this topic and hope that both 'sides' remain respectful enough for it to continue.
Wil, although I see your point that 'the glass test' will not be 'all inclusive', I would be interested to see/hear/read the results of this test with your Albino. I hope you try it out and share the results.
Another 'test' you could try is to tie a string to a ball (or other object) and throw the ball at the Tegu, ensuring the string will stop the ball from actually hitting the Tegu. While 'the glass test' would require the albino to see well enough to identify the rat as food, this 'ball' test would only require the albino to tell there is something flying at his head. You will likely want to perform this test on a normal Tegu as well as I've never thrown anything at my Tegu so I'm not sure what the 'normal' response whould be...
I understand that a lack of melanin makes Tegus (or any albino) vulnerable to sunburn, skin cancer and other issues related to sunlight (or artificial supplements).
But I wonder if... due to the vulnerability to UVB, do they get the full volume of what they need from the sun (or artificial supplement) through far shorter exposure to the sun (or artificial supplements)?
So could a weaker UVB kept farther from the albino animal give them what they need, while not being great enough to harm them?
I give great value to the facts Bobby (and others) have shared, but I do not believe that a single all enclusive conclusion is the only responsible conclusion that can be drawn. I look forward to further discussion on this topic and hope that both 'sides' remain respectful enough for it to continue.
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That post is over 4 years old. I don't see it as hypocritical as we all have the right to change our minds and views as time passes and new information becomes available. Do you still feel the same way about everything now as you did 4 years ago?
An interesting topic and one people are very passionate about so let's try to keep it clean, arguing your point not your person. Does anybody disagree that albino tegus hatch out with obvious handicaps be they eye or skin problems? I'd also like to see further tests done on these animals. It seems the majority of them do poorly compared to normal tegus so I don't really see the point in continued breeding but that's just my opinion.
