How big are Chacoan Tegus?

[TeguBuzz]

@tommylee22 I have no time to go back and forth with someone who isn't seeing the bigger picture. They are BOTH one and the same. You did your research for a year? From who, Bobby Hill? Keep believing what you want. I have dealt with both "extremes" from Bobby which I had myself, as well as his black and whites. You don't need to explain to me what Bobby ranted on about for years, I'm well aware. Done with this before it escalates any further.

@Roadkill I agree with you, some people have just listened to nonsense for too long and refuse to accept the reality.

 

[tommylee22]

@tommylee22 I have no time to go back and forth with someone who isn't seeing the bigger picture. They are BOTH one and the same. You did your research for a year? From who, Bobby Hill? Keep believing what you want. I have dealt with both "extremes" from Bobby which I had myself, as well as his black and whites. You don't need to explain to me what Bobby ranted on about for years, I'm well aware. Done with this before it escalates any further.

@Roadkill I agree with you, some people have just listened to nonsense for too long and refuse to accept the reality.

I don't think this has become anything about Taegu’s just more about Bobby Hill... I just asked you to explain why they look so dif. I can except that they may be the same species I'm just claiming based on my research an visual comparison that they are dif. why that is I would like to know if they are the same. Selective Breeding? maybe and if so let’s call them the "Premium" breed B&W's whatever... They are nicer looking an you know a "Bobby Hill" Extreme when you see one.

 

[Roadkill]

As the person insisting there is a difference, then you are charged with spelling it out. And I do mean spelling it out. You say they're different, then describe accurately exactly what those differences are. None of this "the scales on the head are different", a true, descriptive write up like "prefrontals are longer than wide (~1.5X) with a narrower anterior margin than the caudal margin". For BOTH groups.

 

[Deac77]

What do you think of my male then tommy? Would you call hola extreme?

 

[Roadkill]

Deac77, that's a great looking tegu with a lot of white and good black definition of the scale delineations. However, here is the issue with "is this an extreme?" : people have this ideal of what an extreme is, that an extreme has a certain set of characteristics. This set of characteristics was "established" by Bobby Hill. Bobby Hill has proven to be a liar, a scammer, and extremely ignorant of tegus; meaning any claim from Mr. Hill is highly suspect to say the least. Next, we have seen cases here on this site where people have done much as you are now, posted a picture and asked if what they had was an extreme, not only that but also stating that the tegu in question was sold to them as an extreme by none other than Bobby Hill himself. And people have concluded "no, that is not an extreme".
So where does this leave us? Given that these cases are genuine (ie. these people are telling the truth, that these tegus were indeed sold to them by Bobby Hill as extremes) that leaves us with:
1)Providence and pedigree mean nothing. We can breed an extreme to another extreme, and if the offspring doesn't look a certain way, we can't call those offspring extremes. I doubt people would accept this statement, but this is what they are doing. Likewise, if the "originator" of the line says it is something, and others later say no it isn't, it calls into question the validity of the line - ie. the description given of the set of characteristics doesn't reflect the reality of what they are, and therefore it is inaccurate, a false.
2)The claims of the originator are false. Whether through deliberate deception or innocent ignorance, this means that if some claims pertaining to the characteristics of the line in question are not to be trusted because of the originator, then the whole claim must likewise be suspect. This is not to say Bobby Hill wasn't capable of telling the truth at times, it is just saying given the frequency of his falsehoods, the idea that Extremes are a true lineage derived solely by him and have a strict set of characteristics, only has a fraction of a chance of being true, it cannot be trusted.

Given these facts, it means you can call your tegu an Extreme and be right. Someone else can say "no, it isn't" and be equally right. If both of you can be right in giving contradictory statements of such direct nature (ie. a yes or no, no peripheral arguments), then it basically means any claim is moot. The name only has meaning if you choose to give it meaning, not because it actually means anything in reality.

 

[Deac77]

Deac77, that's a great looking tegu with a lot of white and good black definition of the scale delineations. However, here is the issue with "is this an extreme?" : people have this ideal of what an extreme is, that an extreme has a certain set of characteristics. This set of characteristics was "established" by Bobby Hill. Bobby Hill has proven to be a liar, a scammer, and extremely ignorant of tegus; meaning any claim from Mr. Hill is highly suspect to say the least. Next, we have seen cases here on this site where people have done much as you are now, posted a picture and asked if what they had was an extreme, not only that but also stating that the tegu in question was sold to them as an extreme by none other than Bobby Hill himself. And people have concluded "no, that is not an extreme".
So where does this leave us? Given that these cases are genuine (ie. these people are telling the truth, that these tegus were indeed sold to them by Bobby Hill as extremes) that leaves us with:
1)Providence and pedigree mean nothing. We can breed an extreme to another extreme, and if the offspring doesn't look a certain way, we can't call those offspring extremes. I doubt people would accept this statement, but this is what they are doing. Likewise, if the "originator" of the line says it is something, and others later say no it isn't, it calls into question the validity of the line - ie. the description given of the set of characteristics doesn't reflect the reality of what they are, and therefore it is inaccurate, a false.
2)The claims of the originator are false. Whether through deliberate deception or innocent ignorance, this means that if some claims pertaining to the characteristics of the line in question are not to be trusted because of the originator, then the whole claim must likewise be suspect. This is not to say Bobby Hill wasn't capable of telling the truth at times, it is just saying given the frequency of his falsehoods, the idea that Extremes are a true lineage derived solely by him and have a strict set of characteristics, only has a fraction of a chance of being true, it cannot be trusted.

Given these facts, it means you can call your tegu an Extreme and be right. Someone else can say "no, it isn't" and be equally right. If both of you can be right in giving contradictory statements of such direct nature (ie. a yes or no, no peripheral arguments), then it basically means any claim is moot. The name only has meaning if you choose to give it meaning, not because it actually means anything in reality.

Roadkill I was actually making a point that Charlie is nothing more than a high white bw by Tommy's standards. His nose is not elongated, he's smaller than my female the same age, and I'm sure his egg was no larger base on the Info I was given about parents.


I was honestly being snide I do agree with you 100% they are just bws

 

[Roadkill]

That's sort of my point, though. All these morphs, whether they can form a true lineage or not, are all derived from standard black and white stock. There really isn't an "average" black and white tegu, they show a tremendous amount of variation even within a small population. I wish I had had a digital camera when I first went to Brasil as we had two old boys that I have yet to see anything comparable. Both Salvator merianae, both from the same general gene pool. One was jet black, head to tail tip. Not "melanistic" in the typical sense, where one can see the regular markings but muted out beneath darker colouration. He was black. The other was a near polar opposite. White head to tail tip, but you could see the muted markings of a typical tegu. However his eyes were normal, indicating he was not albino, and due to the "muted" pigmentation pattern, I'm not sure if you'd call it leucistic either. Then in that same general gene pool we had others that were high white, high black, straight nosed, roman nosed, the singed nose that people say is typical of blues (which is in fact where I first got introduced into the blue myth by people being outraged that I was doing all my earlier lab work on a colony of "blues"), fire-bellies, you name it. Had one that grew up to have the most astounding colour, an overall salmon hue (similar, but not the same as the red of Salvator rufescens) with all kinds of colour motes all over - again people insisting it had to be a hybrid, despite the fact I knew the parentage, the entire gene pool this individual came from for generations, and could confidently claim a S.rufescens had never even walked past the colony let alone mated with one of them. My point, after all this rambling, is there isn't really a standard black and white, and even within a single, isolated population, you can get so much variation that it is laughable when I hear people make claims they imported this "morph" from this area, and therefore that's what the tegus there look like. And when you can't even believe providence....the whole idea of lineages goes right out the window. This doesn't mean there aren't some wonderful tegus out there with distinctive characteristics, just that the claim one can be this or not this is really highly artificial and subjective.

 

[Deac77]

Thats awesome though! I'd love to go down there and study them! I wish there was more studies DONE on them. We know so little it's sad. Even someone with your vast knowledge most likely has just scratched the surface.

 

[Roadkill]

I wouldn't even claim to have scratched the surface. I have had exceptional privilege and some extraordinary experiences, and I would have to admit that while it may seem I have done lots and seen more, the reality is that it is only by comparison: I hardly explored much of the South American continent at all, and my tegu experiences would be restricted to a very, very little part of their range. I'm hoping this next year to finally return, try to see a bit more.

 

[evantheelectrician]

Chacoans are NOT a species, they are merely a locality of Black and Whites. This being said, they achieve the same lengths as other tegu species. 5 feet is rare, but happens in all the species occasionally in males. 4 feet is not an accurate average for females. My female "Chacoan" is an adult and about 3 feet long. And 8x4 is a good cage size. You don't need 4 feet of height however, just width. Height I recommend 2.5 feet to allow for proper basking temps.

Talk to Johnny LaRocca....

 

[Deac77]

Talk to Johnny LaRocca....

Yes because breeders know more than biologists >.>

 

[Deac77]

I wouldn't even claim to have scratched the surface. I have had exceptional privilege and some extraordinary experiences, and I would have to admit that while it may seem I have done lots and seen more, the reality is that it is only by comparison: I hardly explored much of the South American continent at all, and my tegu experiences would be restricted to a very, very little part of their range. I'm hoping this next year to finally return, try to see a bit more.

Man I would kill to go with you! I cant wait to finish school and follow in your footsteps!

 

[evantheelectrician]

Don't care about arguing over classifications, I want to know about the lizards.

How was I supposed to know you're a biologist anyways?

 

[Deac77]

We've explained it in length in this post, "Chacoans" are just black and whites. They grow at the same rates, get the same size, ect ect

 

[evantheelectrician]

If Johnny agrees, then I'll concede.

 

[Deac77]

It's clearly no use. It's true that education is wasted I suppose smh

 

[evantheelectrician]

Well theres theory, and there's practice. We're just on the other side of that line from one another. Now I didn't read the entire thread, I just found the classifieds again after a long hiatus from keeping reptiles. I wasn't trying to argue, I just wanted to give the best advice I could.

 

[evantheelectrician]

I do like how you insinuate that I'm not educated for not agreeing with you. You're funny.

 

[Deac77]

I do like how you insinuate that I'm not educated for not agreeing with you. You're funny.

Actually I was insinuating my education is wasted apparently. Since scientifically proven facts are false according to general masses or breeders

 

[evantheelectrician]

Oh. Lol, I guess so. Are you a barista?