Is the reptile industry and community morally bankrupt?

[Chuey]

So I have to post this question and comments.

I think we have too many breeders. We have too many breeders and too many buyers. I know its the sign of the times, but never have I seen so many "I need to get rid of this thing...," "I'll trade XYZ species for ABC..." and scraggly looking poorly taken care of animals on craigslists and supposed "reptile forums".

Seriously WTF is wrong with a lot of the people in this community. If you can't afford to take care of your animals properly don't f**in buy them like they are a carton of milk. It's with great pain but my fiance and myself spend over $5K a year alone in lighting and proper healthcare checkups for our animals.

And as a result our animals thrive. If you are a great herp keeper and you have a numb nut friend who loves your snake or reptile and wants to get into it himself but you know he'll get bored in a month, do us a favor and talk him out of it.

We need to squeeze out all the BullS*** breeders and shrink the source of animals so that the next "clutch" of eggs isn't just a payday to somebody. There's too many addies up on CL of people wanting to get rid of animals who never should have bought them in the first place.

I don't want to talk s*t but for example we just picked up a chuckwalla from a very reputable bearded dragon breeder and the guy didn't know that Wallas are herbivores and have been feeding it crickets and anoles.

 

[chelvis]

Sadly this not just in the reptile community, same thing happens in all pet sectors. I currently work at a exotic cat rescue we got a tiger in a few years back that was kept in a dog creat and given dog food. Poor girl has bone deformities and has problems walking not to mention that she can't walk normally, she wasn't put down becuase other than the walking issue (she can still get around fine) she is a very happy tiger now. I've seen ads for "getting rid of sugar glider breeding pain because son is no longer interested, will trade for video games or other things a 12 year old would like" WTF why buy a kid a breeding pair of gliders at 12 years old. Dogs and cats are the same way look at the selters. Something tells me we'd fine alot more reptiles in shelters if two things where changed 1) all shelters were willing to take in all types of reptiles (many will only take in a select few) 2) People didn't care about getting their money back (lets face it reptiles are a dollar figure to most and so they want what they put into it). That's why you see the really common animals and cheeper aniamls in shelter and rescues like red ear sliders, ball pytons, green iggies, leopard geckos, beardie dragons. Notice you don't see things like tegus too often or drawf african crocodiles.

My mom says i should be happy that the pet trade is doing so welll, scense my animals are my passion. I'd have no problem making pet ownership and privellge and not a right here in the US most days. Just like driving one would have to go through a class and take a test. Nothing rocket science or nothing just basic care and ethics.

Oh ya one more thing (sorry about the rant here) You can't always blam the breeder, although there are some slim balls out there. Most small breeders do try and find responsible buyers for thier animals. But lets face it people lie and are great at it. Through e-mail its impossible to tell age, over the phone its hard to tell when someone is feeding you bullshit and even in person you don't know what that persons persona is from the 10 mintues spent with them. Very simply put if a person wants an animal as a pet most of the time they find a way to get them.

 

[laurarfl]

You know, it's everywhere. Look how people treat each other....look how people treat their kids. Sometimes I think people would sell them on CL, too, if it were legal.

Not to get hugely philosophical, but I think life as a whole has been devalued in our society.

 

[Stef41]

You know, it's everywhere. Look how people treat each other....look how people treat their kids. Sometimes I think people would sell them on CL, too, if it were legal.

Not to get hugely philosophical, but I think life as a whole has been devalued in our society.

I agree completely.

Just the other night I watched some "Killer Aliens" show on Animal Planet (or maybe it was Discovery?). The show was dedicated to exploring and warning people of the increasing "exotic pet release" issue in the Florida Everglades. Which is of course, people purchasing exotic animals, and either end up losing them or realizing they cannot handle them. Whereupon they let them loose in to the wild. Obviously these situations don't only occur in Florida, but the show emphasized that in Florida, the climate allows the foreign pets to flourish.

I was so astounded to see the number of Burmese Pythons (and other large snakes not native to that area) that are starting to overrun those Glades.

They showed the governor talking about a Python escaping from it's enclosure in a residential home and killing a two year old in it's crib. And to hear the ridiculous parents go on and on, saying they "don't know how this could have happened." Ha! I'll tell you how it happened.....you purchased an animal that grows large enough to devour a crocodile, and you tried to contain it in an enclosure fit for a few Bearded Dragons at best.

The show did a remarkable job in showing the true danger of the situation, and it is truly frightening.

 

[laurarfl]

Well, that occurred not too far from me and I'll tell you a bit more. The python was severely underweight and kept in a tank without a locking lid. The guy put it in a pillow case or something like that and put a quilt over the top of the tank. Really?! The parents were later arrested on drug charges and many in the python community doubt the legitimacy of the snake attack.

Also, the situation in the Everglades is often exaggerated because sensationalism sells. The pythons are far from taking over the Glades. There may be a number of invasives, but I think the verdict is out in regards to whether these were releases or escapes after Hurricane Andrew devastated S Florida in 1992.

 

[chelvis]

The lates documentries on the python problem blams many of the glade born snakes orginally coming from a facility where thousands of baby and sub-adult burms were accidently released after the holding building was blown over by hurrican andrew. Yes the big albinos and color morph ones found in and around homes where most likly a relased or escaped pets. Even this wild population is finding it hard to deal with the glades though, from hawks and kingsnakes getting the young to alligators, crocs and now the cold snaps of winter getting the adults. The media has done a great job of make this sound like a godzilla issue.

 

[Stef41]

Well, that occurred not too far from me and I'll tell you a bit more. The python was severely underweight and kept in a tank without a locking lid. The guy put it in a pillow case or something like that and put a quilt over the top of the tank. Really?! The parents were later arrested on drug charges and many in the python community doubt the legitimacy of the snake attack.

Also, the situation in the Everglades is often exaggerated because sensationalism sells. The pythons are far from taking over the Glades. There may be a number of invasives, but I think the verdict is out in regards to whether these were releases or escapes after Hurricane Andrew devastated S Florida in 1992.

Good riddance on the parental arrest.

As for the Glades situation, they hadn't mentioned the hurricane and I had not given that any thought (which was probably their plan eh? )

I'm sure that could have a lot to do with it. Whether it was releases or escapees though, it's an unfortunate situation.

Laur if you live in the general area, have you ever heard or seen those gigantic rats?! :yik

They were called something like "Pouch Rats" I believe. Now, I surround myself with plenty of creeping, crawling, slithering creatures...but a rat that can weigh 9 pounds would have me standing on my kitchen chairs for sure. Yikes. The show DID claimed them to be quite friendly, though.

 

[Guest]

See, now a pouch rat just seems like a GREAT pet to me... but then again, I've always loved rats, and the bigger the better.

 

[Stef41]

See, now a pouch rat just seems like a GREAT pet to me... but then again, I've always loved rats, and the bigger the better.

Lol!

Seems like one of those beasts would be the star of any rat collection, that's for sure!

 

[Chuey]

It is sensationalism. What folks aren't noting is that people from AARK have found that the recent freezes are killing off the big escaped animals they can't encroach areas that freeze over as they aren't equipped to manage in inclimate weather.

That said I'm against most people buying exotics are high upkeep animals.

 

[Wil]

So I have to post this question and comments.

I think we have too many breeders. We have too many breeders and too many buyers. I know its the sign of the times, but never have I seen so many "I need to get rid of this thing...," "I'll trade XYZ species for ABC..." and scraggly looking poorly taken care of animals on craigslists and supposed "reptile forums".

Seriously WTF is wrong with a lot of the people in this community. If you can't afford to take care of your animals properly don't f**in buy them like they are a carton of milk. It's with great pain but my fiance and myself spend over $5K a year alone in lighting and proper healthcare checkups for our animals.

And as a result our animals thrive. If you are a great herp keeper and you have a numb nut friend who loves your snake or reptile and wants to get into it himself but you know he'll get bored in a month, do us a favor and talk him out of it.

We need to squeeze out all the BullS*** breeders and shrink the source of animals so that the next "clutch" of eggs isn't just a payday to somebody. There's too many addies up on CL of people wanting to get rid of animals who never should have bought them in the first place.

I don't want to talk s*t but for example we just picked up a chuckwalla from a very reputable bearded dragon breeder and the guy didn't know that Wallas are herbivores and have been feeding it crickets and anoles.

That said I'm against most people buying exotics are high upkeep animals.

I have to disagree with you. How long have you been in this hobby? This is how it has worked long before you entered into it.
Forgive me if I am against the taking away of my freedoms. It's not like I served my country or anything to keep these freedoms that are constantly under attack. It's been a while but I think it went a little something like this "I, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".

 

[DMBizeau]

^^ +1

As an active duty service member for over 10 years I will second what Wil said and leave it that so I don't get anymore frustrated then I already am. What right do you liberals have to tell me what I can or can't have or do?

 

[chelvis]

DMBizeau thank you for your service. I'm still debating on enlisting i was in ROTC for highschool but my dad served in Viet and was not so thrilled to have a child fallow suite. I'v put it off till now, so we'll see.

I have to admit there is no reason to ban exotic animals, hell before zoos it was private collectors that helped save some animals from going extinic. Just getting the word out there helps alot.

Oh and those rats are gambian giant pouch rats, enteresting little creatures really, used to detect mines in their home country. Really interstting work, but yes there is a colony or so of them. Its funny how the giant rats, pythons, and now nile monitors make front page and head line news. But the ones causing alot of problems, tilapia, pleco cat fish, parrot spieces and exotic monkeys don't seem to raise to many alarm bells. Go for the scale and misunderstood to give yourself a good political edge is all thats going on here.

 

[laurarfl]

1) I have never heard of the Gambian pouched rat...weird...and sad that it could really wreak havoc to the FL agriculture industry. There is the same concern about wild tegus and iguanas are already a pest.

2) I own a Burmese python, a boa, and a small alligator. Some would argue that tegus are too big to be properly managed. I am not willing to sacrifice my personal rights because others cannot accept personal responsibility for their actions. Human nature is such that simply regulating everything will not prevent the evils of society. If that were the case, why do we have criminals who continue to break laws designed to keep society safe? As an aside, thanks to all who serve in the armed forces....your work is priceless.

3) Being a FL native, it's sad to see the destruction of native habitat. there are far worse things devastating the Everglades and FL as a whole. The Army Corp of Engineers reworking the Kissimmee River altered the water flow connected to the Everglades. The sugar industry further compounded the issue, and over-development threatens the aquifer which is key to FL's wet lands and rain cycle. We have invasive Cuban Tree Frogs and Brown Anoles that have displaced the native green reptiles and amphibians. Feral cats do more damage to wildlife than pythons, iguanas, tegus, pouched rats, and monitors combined. But no one cries out to ban cats, or the dogs and horses who have killed more people than snakes.

 

[the enigma]

Chuey, I'm not going to beat around the bush. You sound angry at somebody and we didn't do anything wrong. All of the members that have posted on this thread so far, and most on this site I'm sure are all responsible breeders/keepers. Thanks to the "Big time breeders" that you are putting down (many of which are educational speakers) the public has come along way from were they started with reptiles. And did it ever occur to you that you are winning about ALLLLL of this on a site that is owned by a BREEDER

 

[Guest]

I used to work for a large pet retailer. For the most part I did not sell $20 dollar iguanas, I sold $300 plus dollar iguanas with full set ups (I did the same thing will all the animals). Every adult got the full info on the adult size and need for and more costly upgrades. I do not sell to children with out an adult present. After talking with them I might try to find them a better reptile for there life style. But no matter how hard you try you know many of the reptiles are going to be mistreated or pushed aside at some point. There are five tegus on craigslist in my area right now. One because it is to large and 4 because they are mean. This also happens with dogs (mean and large) and fish (to large for tank). The only way to fix the problem would be out law owning pets. Or maybe have the government make us have permits and monthly home inspections. As a responsible reptile owner I think not! If there is a blame it should be on the side of the owners not the hobby. Even if they purchase something from a pet store and they do not get the correct info, it is still the owners fault. It is called research. All of the info for taking care of most pets is on the internet or at a library. As an owner it is your responsibility to do your research. So lets not blame the hobby, lets put the blame in the right area.

 

[DMBizeau]

Reptiles have caused far less habitat destruction then the hundreds of species of invasive fish let go by irresponsible fish keepers. As far as morally bankrupt, I cannot imagine how many animal shelters there are in each and every state and the hundreds to thousands of animals in each one. Yet if you look in any large newspaper you will find hundreds more ads of breeders selling more. Reptile keepers are easy for politicians and media to take a shot at simply because we are one of the smallest groups of keepers and reptiles strike fear into the minds of uneducated people who don't know any better.

 

[Jer723]

Me personally I think you should have to get some sort of permit to keep these wonderful pets we all love, Reptiles are quite difficult to keep if you dont know what youve gotten into, The fact of the matter is that somebody, whether it the breeder or the government makes sure that people who want to buy these animals are properly trained and knowledgeable in what they want to do, As for me I researched reptiles and tegus for years before I got into the Hobby, I wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into. For instance maybe they could make someone get an easier reptile before they jump up to Tegus or Caimens. I just got my drivers liscence, They didnt just let me hop into a car and drive! They made me take the tests and make sure I wasnt going to harm myself or others, I believe this approach could be used for what we all love to do, making sure nobody irresponsible handles this responsibility, sure some people will still make a$$es of themselves and screw up anyways but it would cut down on it alot. And if you an a reptile keeper really do love your animals, I'm sure you would be willing to go through it. Just my 2 cents

Jerry

 

[laurarfl]

There is just a bigger picture out there. I worked in the neonatal intensive care unit and pediatric intensive care unit before I became a science teacher. I saw a number of preemies born addicted to crack and babies with fetal alcohol syndrome. Then there were toddlers who died of shaken baby syndrome or children with brain injuries because they didn't have seat belts or car seats during car accidents. People just don't think there are consequences to their actions.

I love my reptiles, but people are a bit higher on the scale for me. If society can't even take care of its people, how can society be expected to take care of its pets?

I also need to add that most people are not like this. MOST parents take great care of their kids. MOST kids are fantastic. MOST reptile owners take great care of their pets and are responsible keepers. You can't judge the whole barrel by a few bad apples.

 

[eddyjack]

I wondered when someone would open dialog about "Children" and the comparison. We cannot control any of it, all responsible people can do is provide such wonderful resources as "Varn Yard" offers at this very site and then hope that others will be responsible enough to use it.