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"The best way to judge a society is how the treat their pets"
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Is the reptile industry and community morally bankrupt?
- Thread starter Chuey
- Start date
Im a little bit tired and just read this thread (not all of it but some). I kind of have developed an opinion.
I do not think the government should have its hands on regulating the reptile industry cause they dont know wtf they are doing or how to properly regulate it without getting greedy or out of control. And lets face it, a lot of the herpetologists envolved with government/state stuff are fkin morons. They are usually the outcast of the herp world and their field research only extends to an already over studied species lol. The permits (for larger species/venomous) would be a good idea, however you give our government an inch and they will take a foot. I just like being a free American, not a regulated.
A lot of people I know take better care for their reptiles than zoos and have mind blowing set ups. But thats cause I pick the right crowd (I also tend to avoid herp societies). Just show somebody a wicked set up and once they see it they want to do it that way. Sure it wont always work, but if they see that they will see how its fun. I hate reptile racks (unless for baby snakes) because they are eqivalent to a puppy mill, IMO.
In a way there are too many breeders.... but not too many breeders of most reptile species, if anything there are not enough of a lot of species. That just feeds the animal planet hype. There are however too many breeders of reticulated pythons and burmese pythons (though I'm sure those animals markets are slowly crashing). If you are talking about large snakes though, since when have Boelen's pythons, Scrub pythons, Halmahera pythons, True Indian and Sri lankan pythons, etc. been a problem? They even make monitors look like a major problem, but if you take a step back, its mostly just niles and waters. Most are rarely bred by individuals or farmed. If you look at it, theres just too many breeders of retics and burms (excluding dwarf burms/retics which are generally hybridized by idiots) and ball pythons. Sure the places might be clean in some facilities, but they are still kept like a puppy mill. And if you get rid of genetic diversity, you end up with deformed animals.
Just lead by example and show people awesome set ups. It might not work on all but it will make people really get an idea. Thats what got me majorly interested into herps.
-Jon DeLong
I do not think the government should have its hands on regulating the reptile industry cause they dont know wtf they are doing or how to properly regulate it without getting greedy or out of control. And lets face it, a lot of the herpetologists envolved with government/state stuff are fkin morons. They are usually the outcast of the herp world and their field research only extends to an already over studied species lol. The permits (for larger species/venomous) would be a good idea, however you give our government an inch and they will take a foot. I just like being a free American, not a regulated.
A lot of people I know take better care for their reptiles than zoos and have mind blowing set ups. But thats cause I pick the right crowd (I also tend to avoid herp societies). Just show somebody a wicked set up and once they see it they want to do it that way. Sure it wont always work, but if they see that they will see how its fun. I hate reptile racks (unless for baby snakes) because they are eqivalent to a puppy mill, IMO.
In a way there are too many breeders.... but not too many breeders of most reptile species, if anything there are not enough of a lot of species. That just feeds the animal planet hype. There are however too many breeders of reticulated pythons and burmese pythons (though I'm sure those animals markets are slowly crashing). If you are talking about large snakes though, since when have Boelen's pythons, Scrub pythons, Halmahera pythons, True Indian and Sri lankan pythons, etc. been a problem? They even make monitors look like a major problem, but if you take a step back, its mostly just niles and waters. Most are rarely bred by individuals or farmed. If you look at it, theres just too many breeders of retics and burms (excluding dwarf burms/retics which are generally hybridized by idiots) and ball pythons. Sure the places might be clean in some facilities, but they are still kept like a puppy mill. And if you get rid of genetic diversity, you end up with deformed animals.
Just lead by example and show people awesome set ups. It might not work on all but it will make people really get an idea. Thats what got me majorly interested into herps.
-Jon DeLong
Also, one last thing. It is okay to breed to make money. Its just the manner in which you do it. Say like, if I own rare geckos or rare species of snake and I happen to be good at breeding them, then might as well make money and supply CB animals (not very many reptile species get bred out of control if you really look at the handful that are compared to the rest that arent). I am definitely not going to buy 1 specimen of a rare species that should be breed in captivity and since it is rare, it is going to sell for a higher dollar amount (more than likely) to a true collector and within the captive populations there does need to be genetic diversity.
And DMBizeau, I definitely would like to thank you for your service to and for this country.
And DMBizeau, I definitely would like to thank you for your service to and for this country.
Couldn't have said it better myself Stef, education is definitely the key. And for the experienced hobbyists especially, it may be difficult at times but just be patient with new owners and dont act like you are better. We all started somewhere. Use your education for good and not to put down. And for the novice, bitching doesnt help either though I understand the frustration, its better to focus on a good solution.
Once these animals are regulated and you realize you are turned down for every permit application because you have time to take care of the animals but DO NOT have enough time to take them to do educational shows or not enough money to open a zoo/rescue then you will REALLY have something to complain about. Also the captive conservation efforts by private breeders will drop if they become regulated (zoos really do not accomplish as much as private collectors when it comes to reptiles), which some species depend on them.
I just wish people would look at the argument that PETA and w/e are trying to use for placing restrictions/bans on reptiles. They are only using a handful of species that are mass produced and making it look like the thousands of species of herps are all bred out of control. Humans are the most invasive and bred out of control species.
Quick funny story for when I worked at a petshop. PETA lady comes in. Freaking out about a baby tortoise that flipped over and I said it will correct itself. Saying Im an animal abuser and the place should be shut down. So I told her to shut up and watch the miracles of nature. Sure enough, with a little bit of struggle, the tortoise flipped itself over. If it was truly in a sticky situation then sure Id flip it. Then I explained to her if the babies couldnt flip themselves then all the little tortoises would be extinct. After that she said she wished she could take all the animals and just let them go outside to be free, so I began to explain the impact on native wildlife and environment, etc. lol. Its sad cause its really the uneducated non-hobbyists who tripped out a bit too much on E or people who still feel that snakes are evil cause it says so in the bible (though it said snake like, not that it infact was a snake but probably more meant smooth, sly, cunning, etc.).
But yeah, not that I am saying to do it, but it would be slightly awesome if you went straight to the source and called out the snake mill people (big time morph breeders) on some forums, lol.
-Jon DeLong
Once these animals are regulated and you realize you are turned down for every permit application because you have time to take care of the animals but DO NOT have enough time to take them to do educational shows or not enough money to open a zoo/rescue then you will REALLY have something to complain about. Also the captive conservation efforts by private breeders will drop if they become regulated (zoos really do not accomplish as much as private collectors when it comes to reptiles), which some species depend on them.
I just wish people would look at the argument that PETA and w/e are trying to use for placing restrictions/bans on reptiles. They are only using a handful of species that are mass produced and making it look like the thousands of species of herps are all bred out of control. Humans are the most invasive and bred out of control species.
Quick funny story for when I worked at a petshop. PETA lady comes in. Freaking out about a baby tortoise that flipped over and I said it will correct itself. Saying Im an animal abuser and the place should be shut down. So I told her to shut up and watch the miracles of nature. Sure enough, with a little bit of struggle, the tortoise flipped itself over. If it was truly in a sticky situation then sure Id flip it. Then I explained to her if the babies couldnt flip themselves then all the little tortoises would be extinct. After that she said she wished she could take all the animals and just let them go outside to be free, so I began to explain the impact on native wildlife and environment, etc. lol. Its sad cause its really the uneducated non-hobbyists who tripped out a bit too much on E or people who still feel that snakes are evil cause it says so in the bible (though it said snake like, not that it infact was a snake but probably more meant smooth, sly, cunning, etc.).
But yeah, not that I am saying to do it, but it would be slightly awesome if you went straight to the source and called out the snake mill people (big time morph breeders) on some forums, lol.
-Jon DeLong
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- 1,445
AH you had to bring PETA up, the worse group to happen to animals ever. Sorry had a bad run in with them in college. I was working with a buddy who had some finches that were on lone from the Equitor government i think they were Darwin finches. Now up in Davis in the winter it gets pretty cold. He was studying some behvioral and mating display study going on, so the birds where every very well cared for. Two weeks before the birds were to be sent back a PETA extremest let the birds go in the middle of winter. My buddy came back to find all 10 birds dead from hypothermia just outside the building door. Ya letting animals go in a place they are not native, briliant idea.
Sorry i will stop there, i really dislike PETA with a passion and i'm all for great animal welfare (notice i do not say rights... that can be a whole other tread really).
I have to agree with whats being said, there is alot of overbreeding typically of one kind and that impacts the whole game. Luckly this do go in fades, it wasn't long ago that baby chamelones were used to adoren ladies dress, and before that alligators were a classic pet. The big snake craze will pass, only question is what damage will be left.
Sorry i will stop there, i really dislike PETA with a passion and i'm all for great animal welfare (notice i do not say rights... that can be a whole other tread really).
I have to agree with whats being said, there is alot of overbreeding typically of one kind and that impacts the whole game. Luckly this do go in fades, it wasn't long ago that baby chamelones were used to adoren ladies dress, and before that alligators were a classic pet. The big snake craze will pass, only question is what damage will be left.
I think everyone took what Chuey, my fiance, said out of context and maybe he made a typo or two in that last quoted sentence. Chuey definitely is NOT supporting a ban on exotics because we for one have: 1 tegu, 2 bearded dragons, a jungle carpet python, a king snake, chinchillas, ferrets, and a chuckwalla. He was even going to let me get a False Water Cobra until I asked the NJ government to clarify their rules on rear-fanged snakes and they now say "ALL rear-fanged snakes are illegal."
I think the bottom line of his statement is that somewhere along the way SOME people who love these animals that they breed were transformed by money into something else. By no means is he accusing anyone on this site specifically of doing so, or Varnyard. In fact, Varnyard is the "ideal" sort of breeder, being available to help anyone learn the husbandry of tegus. However, at reptile shows, you'll notice that several breeders will sell you anything you want without blinking an eye. Do they even care that someone they sold it to may NOT have an idea of how to take care of it? That they might NOT have done their research?
Yes, everyone on this site is here because they WANT to learn more about the species that they possess or are just genuinely interested in reptiles. That can't be said for all reptile owners. Personally, I do not think that some species are overbred per se, and I am not even against playing with the genes to get morphs. My only thing is that breeders should care where their animals are going, and make sure that the person at least seems knowledgeable and has a proper setup for the animal that they are going to take on.
I think in Chuey's last quoted comment, he was more or less saying that the more exotic the animal is, the more costly and difficult it is to raise. Before you buy, know that you can take care of it first. Alternatively and along the same lines, many breeders must know or have "gut feelings" about people and sell to them anyway. That would be like having a baby, and adopting them out to just anyone. The government generally regulates who can adopt.
However, it is also very different in applying the case of the government to the case of reptiles. Let's face it, the government seems to be against reptile ownership and if you give them an inch they will take a mile! It doesn't operate with reason, it operates on sensationalism, similar to the python hunting that's occurring in the Everglades. If the government could act rationally, then I would be all for having to take a course to get a permit to possess the type of animal that I desire.
So, all in all, please don't misconstrue the purpose of this post. If anything, it was a venting session (on Chuey's part) about all the irresponsible pet owners out there who don't take the best care of their animals, and all the breeders out there who sell to people like that without doing a little bit of prescreening.
And yes - PETA is evil and half of the reason we have so many threats to reptile ownership today. They are just so extremist and ridiculous.
I think the bottom line of his statement is that somewhere along the way SOME people who love these animals that they breed were transformed by money into something else. By no means is he accusing anyone on this site specifically of doing so, or Varnyard. In fact, Varnyard is the "ideal" sort of breeder, being available to help anyone learn the husbandry of tegus. However, at reptile shows, you'll notice that several breeders will sell you anything you want without blinking an eye. Do they even care that someone they sold it to may NOT have an idea of how to take care of it? That they might NOT have done their research?
Yes, everyone on this site is here because they WANT to learn more about the species that they possess or are just genuinely interested in reptiles. That can't be said for all reptile owners. Personally, I do not think that some species are overbred per se, and I am not even against playing with the genes to get morphs. My only thing is that breeders should care where their animals are going, and make sure that the person at least seems knowledgeable and has a proper setup for the animal that they are going to take on.
I think in Chuey's last quoted comment, he was more or less saying that the more exotic the animal is, the more costly and difficult it is to raise. Before you buy, know that you can take care of it first. Alternatively and along the same lines, many breeders must know or have "gut feelings" about people and sell to them anyway. That would be like having a baby, and adopting them out to just anyone. The government generally regulates who can adopt.
However, it is also very different in applying the case of the government to the case of reptiles. Let's face it, the government seems to be against reptile ownership and if you give them an inch they will take a mile! It doesn't operate with reason, it operates on sensationalism, similar to the python hunting that's occurring in the Everglades. If the government could act rationally, then I would be all for having to take a course to get a permit to possess the type of animal that I desire.
So, all in all, please don't misconstrue the purpose of this post. If anything, it was a venting session (on Chuey's part) about all the irresponsible pet owners out there who don't take the best care of their animals, and all the breeders out there who sell to people like that without doing a little bit of prescreening.
And yes - PETA is evil and half of the reason we have so many threats to reptile ownership today. They are just so extremist and ridiculous.
Will, thanks for taking my post and TOTALLY putting it out of context and putting words in my mouth.
Read my post again and don't take it out of context. I'm not saying anything about your right to own or breed animals. My fiance and myself sent 100 letters to assemblymean and congressman to stop the Python Bill which is more than what most people have done besides whine about it.
For example, If you think petshops should sell captive bred Green Iguanas for $25 to the average Joe who isn't prepared or realize how big they get, then you have problems.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://newjersey.craigslist.org/for/1841011195.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://newjersey.craigslist.org/for/1841011195.html</a><!-- m --> Look at this tank the Iggie can't even turnaround in this fish tank. My Cuban rock is not even 2 years old and 2 feet long and my fiance was worried about his cage so much so that that we just shelled out $250 to get him a giant Iguanararium. My Blue tegu lives in an 8 foot boamaster cage.
What I'm saying is if a person isn't prepared to allow a magnificent animal to be given proper housing and care that person has no right to keep an animal.
The pet industry makes it far too easy for numbskills to own pets by devaluing and treating them as commodities so much so that the nonexotics like a typical green iggie becomes a throwaway animal.
"iguana's about 3ft 6 years old healthy with cage about 4ft nice with all lights and heat rock has 3 floors really nice makes a good impression any where you lay it around has enough space for about another 5 years or so.. really would love someone to love him, i will try to keep in touch with if not even maybe buy it back, i have no room where im staying at have no way to move around this is just taking up to much space i love my iguana and always will ...but i have to sell "
here's another ad, this jerk off doesn't have "room" for his igs and he loves his ig so why did he get one in the first place? I'm just sick of seeing ads like this across all species. There's 25 ads alone in CL about Iguanas in the NY area.
Ash thanks for sticking up. I'm happy with exotics meaning if its priced high the average numbskull can't impulse buy it. However green iggies go for $25 and grow 10X bigger. They shouldn't be selling these things in petstores like their hot cakes.
Read my post again and don't take it out of context. I'm not saying anything about your right to own or breed animals. My fiance and myself sent 100 letters to assemblymean and congressman to stop the Python Bill which is more than what most people have done besides whine about it.
For example, If you think petshops should sell captive bred Green Iguanas for $25 to the average Joe who isn't prepared or realize how big they get, then you have problems.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://newjersey.craigslist.org/for/1841011195.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://newjersey.craigslist.org/for/1841011195.html</a><!-- m --> Look at this tank the Iggie can't even turnaround in this fish tank. My Cuban rock is not even 2 years old and 2 feet long and my fiance was worried about his cage so much so that that we just shelled out $250 to get him a giant Iguanararium. My Blue tegu lives in an 8 foot boamaster cage.
What I'm saying is if a person isn't prepared to allow a magnificent animal to be given proper housing and care that person has no right to keep an animal.
The pet industry makes it far too easy for numbskills to own pets by devaluing and treating them as commodities so much so that the nonexotics like a typical green iggie becomes a throwaway animal.
"iguana's about 3ft 6 years old healthy with cage about 4ft nice with all lights and heat rock has 3 floors really nice makes a good impression any where you lay it around has enough space for about another 5 years or so.. really would love someone to love him, i will try to keep in touch with if not even maybe buy it back, i have no room where im staying at have no way to move around this is just taking up to much space i love my iguana and always will ...but i have to sell "
here's another ad, this jerk off doesn't have "room" for his igs and he loves his ig so why did he get one in the first place? I'm just sick of seeing ads like this across all species. There's 25 ads alone in CL about Iguanas in the NY area.
Ash thanks for sticking up. I'm happy with exotics meaning if its priced high the average numbskull can't impulse buy it. However green iggies go for $25 and grow 10X bigger. They shouldn't be selling these things in petstores like their hot cakes.
If you live in the New York/New Jersey area I am not at all suprised with things like that being on craigslist simply due to the amount of people living in that area.
There are always going to be people that make everyone look bad, regardless if you are talking about reptiles or any other kind of pet.
There are always going to be people that make everyone look bad, regardless if you are talking about reptiles or any other kind of pet.
I've been reading this thread and I must say that I agree with with Chuey and ashesc212 about this thread getting out of context. Im' not sure why people on here are talking about liberals and the constitution. Never once did anyone say anything about banning reptiles (which would take away our freedom). I personally hate seeing how many people mistreat their pets or breeders who only do it for the money and don't care about what happens to the animals they sell. I look thru CL, and other classifieds all the time and I constantly see people trying to get rid of thier pets because they didn't do their homework (research, got tired it, etc. Unfortantely for people selling these animals you never really know who your selling them to.
Being a reptile lover and keeper I would never want a ban on reptiles, but I would like to see some restrictions put on breeding these animals, including cats and dogs. What that restriction should be I can't say. But one thing I know is that the over crowded shelters , the hunderds of classifieds, and even zoo's turning down animals don't lie. Their are many people breeding for the wrong reason, and I'm not putting anyone down on this site.
Being a reptile lover and keeper I would never want a ban on reptiles, but I would like to see some restrictions put on breeding these animals, including cats and dogs. What that restriction should be I can't say. But one thing I know is that the over crowded shelters , the hunderds of classifieds, and even zoo's turning down animals don't lie. Their are many people breeding for the wrong reason, and I'm not putting anyone down on this site.
- Messages
- 263
First off it is Wil, not Will. And second if I read your post out of "context" than how easy do you think it would be for HSUS or PETA to do the same thing??? I'm not saying you are for taking my freedoms away, I just seen your post as ammunition to groups like them. You know, the whole, "See people in that hobby have some of the same views we do" kind of thing. Only difference is that you want fewer breeders and they want NO breeders.
You said that there should be less breeders and fewer animals produced. Yet most of your examples are of animals that are mostly imported. Green iguannas are not captive bred on a real large scale, maybe with the exception of Crutchfield and the albino iguannas. Instead of saying there are too many animals being produced by breeders maybe you should say that there are too many imports.
The other side of importing though is that it provides income for thousands of people in third world countries. Stop the importing and you crush a fragile economy. It's a touchy situation all around.
Also I don't see people that usually post on craigslist as hobbyists. Most of them haven't a clue about what they have and most of them have animals that were more than likely imported and not purchased from a breeder.
I can appreciate and understand your frustrations with some of the aspects of our hobby, but please also consider this. A lot of the big breeders are great people and care about their animals. I have many breeder friends big, small and everything in between. So don't take offense to my statements as I am not the most sensitive at times and I can be a little rough around the edges.
Oh and by the way, for those that have no clue, my reference to the Constitution is the first sentence in the oath I took when I enlisted in the United Sates Navy.
You said that there should be less breeders and fewer animals produced. Yet most of your examples are of animals that are mostly imported. Green iguannas are not captive bred on a real large scale, maybe with the exception of Crutchfield and the albino iguannas. Instead of saying there are too many animals being produced by breeders maybe you should say that there are too many imports.
The other side of importing though is that it provides income for thousands of people in third world countries. Stop the importing and you crush a fragile economy. It's a touchy situation all around.
Also I don't see people that usually post on craigslist as hobbyists. Most of them haven't a clue about what they have and most of them have animals that were more than likely imported and not purchased from a breeder.
I can appreciate and understand your frustrations with some of the aspects of our hobby, but please also consider this. A lot of the big breeders are great people and care about their animals. I have many breeder friends big, small and everything in between. So don't take offense to my statements as I am not the most sensitive at times and I can be a little rough around the edges.
Oh and by the way, for those that have no clue, my reference to the Constitution is the first sentence in the oath I took when I enlisted in the United Sates Navy.
G
Guest
Guest
I haven't sold reptiles professionally for a long time but most of the iguanas were farm bred when I sold them. Is this no longer the case?
It is still the case... Basically all green iguanas are still farm bred. This seems to have turned into a political argument a little bit. First off I will say that I would have no objection to more reptile based laws, honestly speaking. Not the banning of animals, but the closer regulation of their care would be absolutely fine by me. If you honestly would object to a person inspecting your collection and their care once or twice a year I am not sure if you care about the animals very much. The whole taking away your freedoms thing is kind of excessively used in the reptile industry. Constantly complaining about it online is not going to help. Congratulations for writing 100 letters, I don't see how that is relevant though. I don't think this thread was taken entirely out of context although I do think there is no real reason for the thread other than anger and a lack of self control.
the enigma
New Member
- Messages
- 68
Thats good you said what I was trying to say... you said it better though lol
Yeah I don't know the whole personal Liberal vs Conservative thing over this is ridiculous. Whatever some people can relate anything to politics, time to start a "Political Debate Involving Herps" section! :lol: The whole thread is rather wasteful...
TeguKid80 said:
Forums like these are for the conversation regarding any issue related to reptiles. I think it is important for the reptile industry to be self-aware. This is not really complaining, and efforts are made beyond this forum, like the 100 letters helping to prevent a blanket ban on ANY exotic species not SPECIFICALLY listed on this bill. That bill was killed because people who cared wrote letters and did more than just complain online.
These forums are not meant for an immature idiot to complain about breeders which he clearly knows nothing about. Breeders are what keeps the reptile industry alive. That is completely clear. There is no denying it. To say there are to many breeders is simply and purely moronic. Yeah obviously some people like to trade animals, when a BREEDER gets out of a project and into another, they will try to trade their animal for an animal they need for the new project. Likewise, when someone finds out they cannot properly take care of an animal they might want to trade for an animal they can take care of. Granted there are idiots who don't take care of their reptiles, but it's not like all people who breed reptiles sell to idiots only. The whole rant was childish and stupid, end of discussion.
ThrillHouse
New Member
- Messages
- 35
I like the way this thread is going...
