Underground has some RedxBlue albinos

[Bubblz Calhoun]

Not daring to throw a solid opinion in on this one
but I think the issue of albinism/health issues/uv should be thoroughly explored before the aquisition of one of these "special" guys.

Which is why I said earlier here is some information to start reading and make your own decisions.

Albinism is a health defect. Is it one that can be managed yes but how many people know that or even bother to find out how to properly care for most pets let alone albinos.

@ James the video has been posted before, they give no info what so ever about how they are kept so it's misleading. In the video as well as some others they have you can see that every one of them are kept in low lighting. Low lighting doesn't affect their sight or skin, which would rule out skin issues. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still a defect that can lead to other issues. Take them outside or even some where with brighter light and see how their sight changes. Which also refers back to what I previously said, long periods of high exposure to either one (uva/b, bright light or the sun) will cause health issues.

 

[Bntegus]

Not daring to throw a solid opinion in on this one
but I think the issue of albinism/health issues/uv should be thoroughly explored before the aquisition of one of these "special" guys.

Which is why I said earlier here is some information to start reading and make your own decisions.

Albinism is a health defect. Is it one that can be managed yes but how many people know that or even bother to find out how to properly care for most pets let alone albinos.

@ James the video has been posted before, they give no info what so ever about how they are kept so it's misleading. In the video as well as some others they have you can see that every one of them are kept in low lighting. Low lighting doesn't affect their sight or skin, which would rule out skin issues. But that doesn't change the fact that it's still a defect that can lead to other issues. Take them outside or even some where with brighter light and see how their sight changes. Which also refers back to what I previously said, long periods of high exposure to either one (uva/b, bright light or the sun) will cause health issues.

i think its wrong im on your side that is why i stopped breeding them. i got them to make money and i did i have a very large collection from albinos. has for the waters the are keeped the same way i keep my stock or normal waters lol Kevin knows hes **** and he has no problems but we are talking about two diff animals.

 

[AP27]

Now, to achieve an animal that is 3/4 blue, and 1/4 red albino, wouldn't there have to be a 50/50 blue/red albino of breeding age already in existence? Because in order to get the 3/4 to 1/2 ratio you would have to breed the 50/50 offspring with another blue, correct? I've never seen an animal like this, but there should be an idea of what they would look like in adulthood already in one of the parents.

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And if that's the case then why go 75/25? why not just leave it a 50/50 I wonder?

 

[frost]

hmm good discussions going on here.when i saw this had 40 something comments i figured you guys would be raging again. but i will prolly get one of those if i ever get the money. i love albinism,its one of my favorite mutations. and i have a thing for the color white and red. i just cant help myself.=]

 

[Thelegendofcharlie]

Not daring to throw a solid opinion in on this one
but I think the issue of albinism/health issues/uv should be thoroughly explored before the aquisition of one of these "special" guys.

[size=medium]Which is why I said earlier here is some information to start reading and make your own decisions.

Albinism is a health defect. Is it one that can be managed yes but how many people know that or even bother to find out how to properly care for most pets let alone albinos.

I missed your earlier post.
Thank you for posting that information.

 

[Jan Paul]

Jan Paul. Do you have any facts proving that uvb bulbs are required and the animal cannot receive what it needs through its diet??

Read more: http://www.tegutalk.com/showthread.php?tid=12090&page=2#ixzz22T53ebCP

Look arround, and the difference is not difficult to find out. I do not know how it is with you guys in the USA, but here in this country where the winters are very dark ( Yes, i know not why I am gone back to this land? ) and so we really depend on lamps . Is the technique develops higher or more generally in use by people.... I see a difference in 20 years and that is huge, and thats not because of the D3 suplements because that is one of the oldest ways to keep these animals. More sick animals offered held on D3 the last 40 years, and the good of course used often natural sunlight ore the old Osram mercury arc lamps..... The big difference is now mainly to see by hobbyist on the internet who the knowledge sharing and use from others, This is why the hobby in our country to divide in two. 1 use good UVB lamps, and the others group who is verry simple in keeping of reptiles and go to the first pet store they see who always advise from a financial point of view. So they buy D3 suplements becouse thats good enough and use mostly exo terra energy saving lamps, in this group you see only sick animals. And the other group just wonderful healthy animals...... Is that fact not enough?

For example, We can speak of facts by the keeping of animals and how we need to tam this species, ore keep them..... But 20 years seeing large differences we needed to have studies to believe that....And the most interesting thing is, we know without any study about this that Monitors doing well without UVB.

This is what we can say for a fact:

Sunlight: Good healty animals
Good UVB lamps with high index: Good healty animals
D3 suplements: Very small percentage of healthy animals

and all this on a good diet.

 

[laurarfl]

You tube videos are not proof of anything. That particular animal that Bobby posted may have had a calcium poor diet and great D3 supplementation. Without calcium, all the Vit D short of an overdose will not prevent MBD.

Studies and facts for those who have not already seen them:

Regarding dietary Vit D
http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20103230517.html;jsessionid=78A032E010E4F09282E6B8CD3A90BBD3

http://si-pddr.si.edu/jspui/bitstream/10088/11130/1/Allen1995.pdf



http://www.antibodysystems.com/dragon.pdf
"Dietary vitamin D3 levels were not done for wild or captive specimens. However, apparently dietary sources did not provide enough vitamin D3 for captive Komodo dragons to elevate 25[OH]D3 blood levels comparable to those of wild specimens even with whole mammal, bird, or fish items usually offered."
"It appears that Komodo dragons absorb vitamin D3 orally. Three Komodo dragons without any UVB source have maintained blood levels between 100 and 330 nmol/L vitamin D3 during a 6- to 12-month period. Specimens were maintained on a whole animal diet as well as approximately 3,000 IU vitamin D3/kg dietary dry matter [R. Burns, unpublished data; D. Gillespie, unpublished data]. This route of supplementation may result in hypo- or hypervitaminosis D3. Sunlight by direct exposure or through UV-permeable acrylic roof panels avoids this problem because natural biosynthesis is thought to be self-regulating [Ullrey and Bernard, 1999]. Sunlight also provides UVA wavelengths, thought to be important in inducing many behaviors and other factors not understood at this time [Frye, 1991]. Indoor lamps should be used as supplemental UVB sources when changing husbandry situations dictate"

How much UVB do reptiles need?
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/whatreptilesneed.htm

Merck Veterinary Manual:
"Vitamin D and Ultraviolet Light:
Most vertebrates can either absorb vitamin D from the diet or synthesize it in the skin from 7-dehydrocholesterol using energy from ultraviolet (UV) light of certain wavelengths (290-315 nm) in a temperature-dependent reaction. Thus, vitamin D is required in the diet only when endogenous synthesis is inadequate, as develops when animals are not exposed to UV light of appropriate wavelengths. Many captive basking species appear susceptible to rickets or osteomalacia. Bone fractures, soft-tissue mineralization, renal complications, and tetany can develop. Reptiles frequently show few premonitory signs, although lethargy, inappetence, and reluctance to move are commonly reported. Serum calcium concentrations may not be diagnostically useful. Supplementation with injectable calcium and vitamin D may provide some short-term relief. However, exposure to UV light, or lack of it, may be an important, yet often overlooked, factor in the differential diagnosis. Complicating the diagnosis may be soft-tissue mineralization, seen radiographically or at necropsy.
In green iguanas, metastatic calcification may not result from vitamin D toxicity. Iguanas with both fractured bones and extremely low or undetectable levels of circulating 25-hydroxycholecalciferol also had calcified soft tissues. The etiology of the metastatic calcification is not understood and is contrary to conventional understanding of the signs of vitamin D deficiency and toxicity in domestic species. Dietary sources of vitamin D may not be sufficient to prevent rickets and osteomalacia. Diets with as much as 3,000 IU vitamin D3/kg did not prevent bone fractures and cortical thinning in green iguanas. Weak UV bulbs placed over the lizards at ~12-18 in. for 12 hr/day appeared to reverse the signs in the least severely affected lizards. Because some lizards seek a warm spot to increase body temperature, placement of the warming bulb, usually incandescent, adjacent to a UV bulb helps ensure adequate exposure to UV light. Exposure to unfiltered natural sunlight during warmer months and use of UV bulbs during the rest of the year usually eliminates the risk of bone disease caused by insufficient absorption of calcium (due to a vitamin D deficiency).
Some lizard species may be unable to absorb sufficient dietary vitamin D3, although the reason is poorly understood. New World primates are believed to have exceptionally high dietary requirements for vitamin D, which may be related to lower numbers of vitamin D cellular receptors than are present in Old World primates. Similar metabolic differences may exist in some basking lizard species, although this has not been established. UV bulbs are sold in pet stores, but label claims may not be reliable. Enlisting the assistance of a specialist is advised because there is no ideal UV bulb"

 

[Deac77]

Not to interrupt this fight but they also hatched this thing! Forget the albino I want this!!

[attachment=4713]
[attachment=4714]
[attachment=4715]

 

[laurarfl]

I didn't think anyone was fighting, just posting information. It's just like hybrids in general, some people like them and some people don't. Some like albinos and some don't. But potential owners should be properly informed to make educated decisions about husbandry and such.

 

[bonedoc]

Melanin protects the eyes from UVB. Damage from UVB exposure is a leading cause of cataracts. fact The reddish color of the eye is albinism is not a "color", but a lack of melanism, causing the color of blood vessels to show through. My friend Shawn Heflick has been able to produce albino alligators, but they do require protection from the sun. To pretend that albino animals are not light sensitive is just silly.

Correct, Albinism is a lack of pigment and can happen in any animal. This does allow the red of blood vessels to show through and removes the animal 'nature' protection from the sun. Blindness and skin cancer are very real for albinos and alot of that is due to the damage from the sun because of the lack of protective pigment.

---

You tube videos are not proof of anything. That particular animal that Bobby posted may have had a calcium poor diet and great D3 supplementation. Without calcium, all the Vit D short of an overdose will not prevent MBD.

Studies and facts for those who have not already seen them:

Regarding dietary Vit D
http://www.cabdirect.org/abstracts/20103230517.html;jsessionid=78A032E010E4F09282E6B8CD3A90BBD3

http://si-pddr.si.edu/jspui/bitstream/10088/11130/1/Allen1995.pdf



http://www.antibodysystems.com/dragon.pdf
"Dietary vitamin D3 levels were not done for wild or captive specimens. However, apparently dietary sources did not provide enough vitamin D3 for captive Komodo dragons to elevate 25[OH]D3 blood levels comparable to those of wild specimens even with whole mammal, bird, or fish items usually offered."
"It appears that Komodo dragons absorb vitamin D3 orally. Three Komodo dragons without any UVB source have maintained blood levels between 100 and 330 nmol/L vitamin D3 during a 6- to 12-month period. Specimens were maintained on a whole animal diet as well as approximately 3,000 IU vitamin D3/kg dietary dry matter [R. Burns, unpublished data; D. Gillespie, unpublished data]. This route of supplementation may result in hypo- or hypervitaminosis D3. Sunlight by direct exposure or through UV-permeable acrylic roof panels avoids this problem because natural biosynthesis is thought to be self-regulating [Ullrey and Bernard, 1999]. Sunlight also provides UVA wavelengths, thought to be important in inducing many behaviors and other factors not understood at this time [Frye, 1991]. Indoor lamps should be used as supplemental UVB sources when changing husbandry situations dictate"

How much UVB do reptiles need?
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/whatreptilesneed.htm

Merck Veterinary Manual:
"Vitamin D and Ultraviolet Light:
Most vertebrates can either absorb vitamin D from the diet or synthesize it in the skin from 7-dehydrocholesterol using energy from ultraviolet (UV) light of certain wavelengths (290-315 nm) in a temperature-dependent reaction. Thus, vitamin D is required in the diet only when endogenous synthesis is inadequate, as develops when animals are not exposed to UV light of appropriate wavelengths. Many captive basking species appear susceptible to rickets or osteomalacia. Bone fractures, soft-tissue mineralization, renal complications, and tetany can develop. Reptiles frequently show few premonitory signs, although lethargy, inappetence, and reluctance to move are commonly reported. Serum calcium concentrations may not be diagnostically useful. Supplementation with injectable calcium and vitamin D may provide some short-term relief. However, exposure to UV light, or lack of it, may be an important, yet often overlooked, factor in the differential diagnosis. Complicating the diagnosis may be soft-tissue mineralization, seen radiographically or at necropsy.
In green iguanas, metastatic calcification may not result from vitamin D toxicity. Iguanas with both fractured bones and extremely low or undetectable levels of circulating 25-hydroxycholecalciferol also had calcified soft tissues. The etiology of the metastatic calcification is not understood and is contrary to conventional understanding of the signs of vitamin D deficiency and toxicity in domestic species. Dietary sources of vitamin D may not be sufficient to prevent rickets and osteomalacia. Diets with as much as 3,000 IU vitamin D3/kg did not prevent bone fractures and cortical thinning in green iguanas. Weak UV bulbs placed over the lizards at ~12-18 in. for 12 hr/day appeared to reverse the signs in the least severely affected lizards. Because some lizards seek a warm spot to increase body temperature, placement of the warming bulb, usually incandescent, adjacent to a UV bulb helps ensure adequate exposure to UV light. Exposure to unfiltered natural sunlight during warmer months and use of UV bulbs during the rest of the year usually eliminates the risk of bone disease caused by insufficient absorption of calcium (due to a vitamin D deficiency).
Some lizard species may be unable to absorb sufficient dietary vitamin D3, although the reason is poorly understood. New World primates are believed to have exceptionally high dietary requirements for vitamin D, which may be related to lower numbers of vitamin D cellular receptors than are present in Old World primates. Similar metabolic differences may exist in some basking lizard species, although this has not been established. UV bulbs are sold in pet stores, but label claims may not be reliable. Enlisting the assistance of a specialist is advised because there is no ideal UV bulb"

Correct again. You have to have all the pieces of the puzzle. So if an animal is missing one they could have literally an overdose load of the other and still end up with MBD. All of this is known information but even recently is just being applied. in Humans, MBD would be Rickets. We are actually seeing a resurgence of Rickets in children. Why, how could that be with all of our Calcium fortified foods, enriched with D3, etc. Well we have become so crazy of avoiding sun exposure and kids are not playing outside enough that they are getting the exposure needed for their bodies to synthesize the Vitamin D.

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There are no major health problems for albinos that are different from others except for those related to exposure damage to the sun. As stated by a previous poster issues can be managed but ultimately it is up to the owner to make sure they are educated on the needs and proper husbandry.

 

[laurarfl]

Just to be off-topic...I think the resurgence of rickets is a combination of being indoors too much, slathering with sunscreen when we are outdoors, and phosphoric acid from massive soda consumption. Same with lizards...dietary issues with Ca: P and UVB/Vit D

 

[tommylee22]

The way I see it I have 3 questions on these albinos,
1) Do they deed UVA/UVB to thrive?
2) Is it not a fact that in albino animals of any sort bright UV lighting causes blindness and cataracts?
3) Has it been proven that reptiles that need sun/UVA/B overhead to bask in able to absorb any D3 supplement thru their internal stomicks?


IF so there is your health problem and or high risk health issues over a non albino

 

[bonedoc]

Just to be off-topic...I think the resurgence of rickets is a combination of being indoors too much, slathering with sunscreen when we are outdoors, and phosphoric acid from massive soda consumption. Same with lizards...dietary issues with Ca: P and UVB/Vit D

Correct which is essentially what I meant by avoiding sun exposure and not playing outside. You bring up soda consumption. This too is a huge problem because for our bodies to eliminate the excess phosphoric acid it must be neutralized first, which ends up leaching calcium from our bodies.

 

[Logie_Bear]

There's also the albino iggys. Tom has been breeding albino iguanas for years now, and those lizards are kept in outdoor enclosures and apper to do just fine

 

[james.w]

@Tommy

1. No
2. No
3. No.

 

[laurarfl]

The way I see it I have 3 questions on these albinos,
1) Do they deed UVA/UVB to thrive?
2) Is it not a fact that in albino animals of any sort bright UV lighting causes blindness and cataracts?
3) Has it been proven that reptiles that need sun/UVA/B overhead to bask in able to absorb any D3 supplement thru their internal stomicks?


IF so there is your health problem and or high risk health issues over a non albino

1. No true studies have been done so no scientifically accurate answer can be given.
2. http://www.eyewisevision.com.sg/services_cataract.htm albinism and eye issues
3. The forms of vitamin D synthesized from the skin and that absorbed from the diet are different precursors. UVB works with the skin, but has nothing to do with intestinal absorption. The question has always been how effective is intestinal absorption of the dietary precursor as compared to the form that is naturally formed by the skin in the presence of UVB.

I think the fair statement to make with the recent breeding of albino diurnal lizards is that it is new territory with many uncertainties. Can anyone really claim that everything is fine or that everything is awful with confidence? I would be most willing to listen to the person who acknowledges the positive and negative and strives to provide the best husbandry possible.

 

[got10]

I have been sitting this one out for a while just wondering why there is still debate over Uv light for the tegus(albinos). I keep mine under mercury lamps in the house and when weather permitting ,they stay outside. To each their own. If you want to take care of your animal as if was worth more a "COOL PET" and more like a personal investment , living breathing animal. Just purchase a damned uv a/b bulb . I for one have NEVER seen any animals kept under lamps or sunlight that developed any type of calcium deficits. BUT one the other hand have seen MANY tegus Iggys beardies and chameleons come through the rescues Ive dealt with all messed up from LACK of UV bulbs . Is your choice and your animal . If you don't trust the effectiveness of the bulbs . take your animal out in the sun for about an hour in the sun
The only thing I would see is the problem with albino gators they dont thrive very well without uv light

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I didn't think anyone was fighting, just posting information. It's just like hybrids in general, some people like them and some people don't. Some like albinos and some don't. But potential owners should be properly informed to make educated decisions about husbandry and such.

agreed

 

[Bubblz Calhoun]

What some people fail to mention or even think about, is that these days a lot of reptiles are taken outside, kept and or have access to outdoor pins. Therefore receiving UV, even some diurnal animals get UV when they come out at dawn or dusk.

 

[laurarfl]

That's part of the being informed issue....and I agree: provide a UVB source, but subdued. Maybe these guys will not appreciate a MegaRay, but some shaded natural sunlight may be approrpriate. In the case of the alligators, they are kept outside in a shaded area with algae growth on their backs. They are thriving and reproducing. They look great! Shawn is no slouch when it comes to crocodilians and is an expert wildlife biologist.