harveyherps, thanks for turning a constructive adult conversation into the mental midget of a conversation it became. Why even bother participating in a forum if the majority of us are lazy neglegent keepers. I understand that people have different opinions and I didn't intend to change anyone's already held beliefs but I did ask for people to post constructive arguments in favor of their beliefs. If you aren't capable of doing that, no need to participate. You aren't helping the case of people who did take the time and effort to construct logical reasons behind their responses about why they feed live. I really don't get why you even bothered to post.
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a discussion on the philosophy of feeding.
- Thread starter nat
- Start date
and yes I am in favor of shutting down the thread because I think we are all just getting into a cycle of repeating already stated beliefs but it seems the personal attacks are not able to be left out and I don't want my inquiry to result in anyone being disrespected.
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nat said:
I am not going to put up with personal attacks on this thread, you might want to go read the rules here again: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=438">http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=438</a><!-- m -->
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I was only trying to make you guys think about things. When things get a little heated. Peoples true feeling come out. Some can control themselves and argue without taking it personal. My main intention was to find out . Which ones of you were that way. I was trying to see how tolerant you guys are of others opinions. It seems Bobby is more tolerant than most here. Thanks Bobby I have the greatest respect for you.VARNYARD said:
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I dont think this has been answered yet but has anyone personally had a problem with feeding live or on the other side personally had a problem feeding pre-dead? (medically or temperament)
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That was a good question. I haven't had any problem either way myself.
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I went ahead and locked this thread, I just could not see anything good coming from it. Kevin was right for locking it the first time, however, I told him to open it back up if everyone could be civil, but it just started getting personal and this is not what this site is about.
I have just unlocked this thread because while it got out of hand a bit. There was some interesting views on things. Most of the people involved no longer use this forum with any regularity and it may be interesting to see some new view points on it. So keep it clean 
Re:
Ding ding ding ding. The 1000 dollar winner. Bobby made this post on Jan 14 2008 on the 1st page of this thread.
He hit the nail on the head. Pretty much end of discussion.
Tegus, or any other predator for that matter that react to movement is displaying a reaction called "prey drive".
This is the same action that makes a dog chase a ball, or go after someone if they are protection trained. Its the same behavior that makes a Lion chase a Impala, or a Hawk pick off fish in a river, or rats from a field. Nothing more.
For captive safety this has been work out of "pet" type animals. By safety I mean safety for the animal and its handler. There is a level of aggression and confidence a predator has to exert when putting basically its life on the line to kill another animal for food. This behavior could have negative effects on its life in captivity and the person, or people responsible for the animals care. Feeding p/k or f/t helps tame this to a degree.
Proof is basically my large collection of snakes in witch 85% of eat right off the floor of the cage. No biting, no constricting, no invenomating. In essence, no killing, or hunting. Also, no aggression. Just swallowing to eat.
These behavior patterns are not instinctual, they are learned with repetition and time.
As a result, my snakes never show signs of feeding response, yet they eat every time food is offered.
VARNYARD said:
Ding ding ding ding. The 1000 dollar winner. Bobby made this post on Jan 14 2008 on the 1st page of this thread.
He hit the nail on the head. Pretty much end of discussion.
Tegus, or any other predator for that matter that react to movement is displaying a reaction called "prey drive".
This is the same action that makes a dog chase a ball, or go after someone if they are protection trained. Its the same behavior that makes a Lion chase a Impala, or a Hawk pick off fish in a river, or rats from a field. Nothing more.
For captive safety this has been work out of "pet" type animals. By safety I mean safety for the animal and its handler. There is a level of aggression and confidence a predator has to exert when putting basically its life on the line to kill another animal for food. This behavior could have negative effects on its life in captivity and the person, or people responsible for the animals care. Feeding p/k or f/t helps tame this to a degree.
Proof is basically my large collection of snakes in witch 85% of eat right off the floor of the cage. No biting, no constricting, no invenomating. In essence, no killing, or hunting. Also, no aggression. Just swallowing to eat.
These behavior patterns are not instinctual, they are learned with repetition and time.
As a result, my snakes never show signs of feeding response, yet they eat every time food is offered.
tora
New Member
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Yeah, even with my snakes I've never had a problem feeding f/t. I've seen plenty of pictures of snakes with their heads ripped open to risk it. Once I get my tegu, I only plan on feeding it dead things, with the exception of bugs. The way I see it, the people around here treat their lizards pretty well, so well in fact that I'd say they get about as much mental stimulation as a housecat. They get to go outdoors, they get fed a lot more than just kibble, and they usually get to roam the home as well. I don't think the risk of them losing an eye is worth it, and I don't see why someone would feed a fuzzy over a huge roach anyway (if movement is the whole point of feeding live). Sure the fuzzy can't do much if anything, but aren't baby mice all fat anyway?
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My Tegu primarily eats 'dead' things (ground Turkey and f/t hairless mice)...
Though I sometimes toss him a 2~4" fish from one of my breeding tanks. He is very eager to chase the flopping thing and fiercely gobbles it up. Evean after eating his fill on his stardard foods he just cannot resist attackign the flopping fish.
Thus I would agree that moving prey triggers a primal instinct. One that must be inside of the animal to thrive in the wild, but one that I really do not wish to bring out in my captive animal...
The only time I ever have concern of my Tegu biting me is when I am walking barefoot. He has mistaken my toes for hairless mice two or three times and started approaching them as if they were a meal. But I've yet to get bitten by him in any way.
Though I sometimes toss him a 2~4" fish from one of my breeding tanks. He is very eager to chase the flopping thing and fiercely gobbles it up. Evean after eating his fill on his stardard foods he just cannot resist attackign the flopping fish.
Thus I would agree that moving prey triggers a primal instinct. One that must be inside of the animal to thrive in the wild, but one that I really do not wish to bring out in my captive animal...
The only time I ever have concern of my Tegu biting me is when I am walking barefoot. He has mistaken my toes for hairless mice two or three times and started approaching them as if they were a meal. But I've yet to get bitten by him in any way.
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AB^ said:I have just unlocked this thread because while it got out of hand a bit. There was some interesting views on things. Most of the people involved no longer use this forum with any regularity and it may be interesting to see some new view points on it. So keep it clean
The thread that NEEEEEEEEEEEVER DIIIIIIIIIIIIIES!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!
I keep snakes and turtles, and I'm getting my first tegu this summer. I also raise my own rats, gerbils, and fish as feeders.
When I got my first snake, I fed it a live mouse out of an infantile desire to see it "in action". It was stupid to do, and my snake ended up with a scratch on its face for my immaturity.
I only offer live rodents as a last resort to a stubborn feeder, and then only unweaned rodents with eyes still closed.
These are captive animals. If you're feeling guilt about keeping them in a cage, you won't assuage it by feeding live.
If you're feeding live because you like to watch your tegu, or any other pet, kill its prey... grow up.
Contrary to what people think, suffering is not the best seasoning. Veal tastes good because it's made from unused muscles, not because the animal lives its short torturous life in a stall the size of its body. Live rodents won't taste better because they spent the last five minutes of their lives screaming in terror.
It's been said before, but it bears repeating. Dead rodents can't bite your tegu, live rodents can. It doesn't matter whether feeding live is ethical or not. It doesn't matter whether feeding live can make your tegu more aggressive. It doesn't matter whether they primarily eat carrion or live in the wild. A dead rodent will never bite your tegu.
When I got my first snake, I fed it a live mouse out of an infantile desire to see it "in action". It was stupid to do, and my snake ended up with a scratch on its face for my immaturity.
I only offer live rodents as a last resort to a stubborn feeder, and then only unweaned rodents with eyes still closed.
These are captive animals. If you're feeling guilt about keeping them in a cage, you won't assuage it by feeding live.
If you're feeding live because you like to watch your tegu, or any other pet, kill its prey... grow up.
Contrary to what people think, suffering is not the best seasoning. Veal tastes good because it's made from unused muscles, not because the animal lives its short torturous life in a stall the size of its body. Live rodents won't taste better because they spent the last five minutes of their lives screaming in terror.
It's been said before, but it bears repeating. Dead rodents can't bite your tegu, live rodents can. It doesn't matter whether feeding live is ethical or not. It doesn't matter whether feeding live can make your tegu more aggressive. It doesn't matter whether they primarily eat carrion or live in the wild. A dead rodent will never bite your tegu.
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i have seen the damage that has been done to quite a few boas and pythonss by owners who fed live but have yet to see any harmed by a dead rat! i have always fed p/k and f/t and only 3 times have i ever fer live and they were all pinky mice and rat because that was all they had at those times, and i have never had a problem with my tegus taking them. the safety of my pets alwayscome first and i couldnever chance an injury with any of them. i did once have a ball python ho would take live so i always stunned the mice by whacking them hard against something so they still moved but were comletely dazed.
G
Guest
Guest
I know this thread is a little old now but I felt the need to add...
The whole "It's natural" argument drives me insane. Argue all you want but nothing is natural about what we're doing with any exotic pet.
Also, feeding live for "mental stimulation" grinds my gears as well. There are many other ways to provide mentally stimulating enrichment without the risk of causing harm to your animal. I know ferret owners who frequently have begun feeding live mice to their ferrets for "enrichment" and I'm sorry, there's so many more safer enrichment techniques. No excuses.
Personally, I think feeding live is wrong. It's risky for the reptile involved and I personally think it's cruel and inhumane to the prey item. The predator animal doesn't always make the kill properly. Sometimes it's a long, painful death for the prey item. Not nice.
It seems that some people don't understand that what happens in the wild isn't all peaches and gravy. The predator doesn't just eat kill and eat its prey unscathed. Most large snakes and lizards who feed on mammals larger than mice are decorated in scars and wounds.
I actually just watched a clip of a Green Anaconda killing a Capybara(?) in the wild and suffering from a massive gash in its side. Like, I mean skin hanging, muscle exposed and even almost bone...
I'm all for natural diets with ANY animal (cats, dogs, ferrets) but I don't believe in feeding live because it's NOT natural, it's not something that's without risk, and there are much safer ways to provide mental stimulation and enrichment.
/rant
Oh, and I wanted to say that it's our job and responsibility to keep these animals healthy, safe, and happy. Willing to let harm fall upon your animal for the benefit of "enrichment" or how "natural" it is is a little counter-productive...
The whole "It's natural" argument drives me insane. Argue all you want but nothing is natural about what we're doing with any exotic pet.
Also, feeding live for "mental stimulation" grinds my gears as well. There are many other ways to provide mentally stimulating enrichment without the risk of causing harm to your animal. I know ferret owners who frequently have begun feeding live mice to their ferrets for "enrichment" and I'm sorry, there's so many more safer enrichment techniques. No excuses.
Personally, I think feeding live is wrong. It's risky for the reptile involved and I personally think it's cruel and inhumane to the prey item. The predator animal doesn't always make the kill properly. Sometimes it's a long, painful death for the prey item. Not nice.
It seems that some people don't understand that what happens in the wild isn't all peaches and gravy. The predator doesn't just eat kill and eat its prey unscathed. Most large snakes and lizards who feed on mammals larger than mice are decorated in scars and wounds.
I actually just watched a clip of a Green Anaconda killing a Capybara(?) in the wild and suffering from a massive gash in its side. Like, I mean skin hanging, muscle exposed and even almost bone...
I'm all for natural diets with ANY animal (cats, dogs, ferrets) but I don't believe in feeding live because it's NOT natural, it's not something that's without risk, and there are much safer ways to provide mental stimulation and enrichment.
/rant
Oh, and I wanted to say that it's our job and responsibility to keep these animals healthy, safe, and happy. Willing to let harm fall upon your animal for the benefit of "enrichment" or how "natural" it is is a little counter-productive...
