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a discussion on the philosophy of feeding.
- Thread starter nat
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Lexi said:
I don't look down on you in the slightest. You're still Lexi right? Everyone has different methods. No one should look down on anyone's opinion or get all fired up over someone else's preference unless it is a real serious danger. You're a responsible person, so I'm sure you're doing just fine Lexi.
It's time to stop the forward and harsh posts guys, that includes everyone.
:igu :slap :sobo
Lexi sorry if you feel attacked in any way, it wasn't my intent. I hope everyone to remember that you can disagree with and both tolerate other people's opinions and that just because someone disagrees with your practice for whatever reason does not mean that they think badly of you. That being said, everyone needs to concentrate on the action and its consequences in the argument and not the character or integrity of the individual.
So in a funny way (as basic morality often does) both sides are interested in providing the best care for their animals but the value systems are different in that some place a higher value on stimulation and feel that this value of "happiness" (for lack of a better word) that is provided for their tegu has more benefits than the potential risks involved.
I still feel that the risks are too high to feed live, (it probably has to do with encountering too many live feed victims in my life) in the same way that I don't let my cats hunt mice HOWEVER a real benefit to this discussion for me has been to cause me to spend more time contemplating the role of stimulation contributing to the overall happiness and health of the tegu. Obviously if some seasoned pros think it is valuable enough that certain risks are worthwhile, it is a value that is probably in my best interest to spend more time thinking about. I always knew stimulation was important in the back of my head but I am inspired to re-examine how much time I am dedicated to insuring my tegu is stimulated and ways in which I can accomplish that.
For a tegu at work, I used to stuff food pieces into hallow dog toys and let her bat it around. Perhaps that is something I can re invent for mine. I am still not sure how to handle live insects because I have seen an increase in aggression towards moving things (like my hand) when I provide the tegus with quick moving insects such as crickets... I usually either put them in a food bin so he associates only his food bin with chasing things around.
ok off for more contemplation!
So in a funny way (as basic morality often does) both sides are interested in providing the best care for their animals but the value systems are different in that some place a higher value on stimulation and feel that this value of "happiness" (for lack of a better word) that is provided for their tegu has more benefits than the potential risks involved.
I still feel that the risks are too high to feed live, (it probably has to do with encountering too many live feed victims in my life) in the same way that I don't let my cats hunt mice HOWEVER a real benefit to this discussion for me has been to cause me to spend more time contemplating the role of stimulation contributing to the overall happiness and health of the tegu. Obviously if some seasoned pros think it is valuable enough that certain risks are worthwhile, it is a value that is probably in my best interest to spend more time thinking about. I always knew stimulation was important in the back of my head but I am inspired to re-examine how much time I am dedicated to insuring my tegu is stimulated and ways in which I can accomplish that.
For a tegu at work, I used to stuff food pieces into hallow dog toys and let her bat it around. Perhaps that is something I can re invent for mine. I am still not sure how to handle live insects because I have seen an increase in aggression towards moving things (like my hand) when I provide the tegus with quick moving insects such as crickets... I usually either put them in a food bin so he associates only his food bin with chasing things around.
ok off for more contemplation!
- Messages
- 572
nat said:
what do you think about the pup thing? I think it provides them with enough stimulation without any danger.
I think pups definately have a lot less potential for inflicting physical damage to the tegu (if any damage is potential at all) however I would still be concerned about potential parasites and / or any products on the rats. I say products because after working in the pet industry for a couple of years I became familiar with the use of some mite dusts, antibiotic sprays, etc etc that are commonly applied to rats and other rodents by either the whole seller before they reach the store and / or the store itself.
I suppose if one is willing to raise their own rodents many of these issues would become not applicable but I am not willing to raise rodents (or they would become pets indefinately ha ha ). Also, I have had discussions about the parasites rats / mice carry with my vet out of concern for a particular cat of mine that likes to eat mice (except the snout... she leaves those for me to clean up :crazy ) and after exploring all of the potential diseases that can occur, I am really warry of feeding them before they have been frozen and any parasites killed off. I may be MORE concerned then the average person due to my background volunteering in wildlife rehab centers and with rescue reptiles and have come into contact with several devestating diseases and experiences that I care not to repeat if I can help it. Is it likely that home raised rodents will pose a disease threat? not likely but as I am not willing to raise my own food AND I am still not familiar enough with the nature of rodent disease and parasites, I feel at this time for my situation that the risks outweigh the benefit but there are definate benefits none the less.
I suppose if one is willing to raise their own rodents many of these issues would become not applicable but I am not willing to raise rodents (or they would become pets indefinately ha ha ). Also, I have had discussions about the parasites rats / mice carry with my vet out of concern for a particular cat of mine that likes to eat mice (except the snout... she leaves those for me to clean up :crazy ) and after exploring all of the potential diseases that can occur, I am really warry of feeding them before they have been frozen and any parasites killed off. I may be MORE concerned then the average person due to my background volunteering in wildlife rehab centers and with rescue reptiles and have come into contact with several devestating diseases and experiences that I care not to repeat if I can help it. Is it likely that home raised rodents will pose a disease threat? not likely but as I am not willing to raise my own food AND I am still not familiar enough with the nature of rodent disease and parasites, I feel at this time for my situation that the risks outweigh the benefit but there are definate benefits none the less.
I know this topic is in the tegu forum but I would like to chime in. I feed both live and f/t. I have some snakes that will not take f/t. I keep mostly ball pythons and some of them have been very difficult to keep feeding on a regular basis. These picky feeders recieve only live prey items. I supervise the feeding and in the case of a rat turning the table I am there to take action. I do wish I could get these guys to take f/t prey because the potential for injury is real. But I do not feel bad or feel like I am doing anything wrong by offering live prey. Some of my snakes will take f/t prey and I prefer this method because of availability cost and convienace.
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Like I said before I have no problem with people who feed live. I would just like to note that feeding live is said to be seen as a natural thing to do, but we have to remember that captivity is not natural. My personal opinion is this...in the wild a live prey item has a fighting chance. If a tegu came upon a rat in the wild I see 2 things happening. One the rat runs away or two the tegu is lucky enough to sneak up on it and eat it. But even still 9 times out of 10 the prey can still get away to survive another day. This is of course the tegu is hungry and if it wasn't it would just pass by the meal. I don't see feeding live in captivity anything like being natural just because of these simple facts. Prey in the wild will do its best to avoid being eating unlike captivity where there is no place to run and hide except the corner of an enclosure.
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- 823
I feed live . I have fed frozen also. Feeding live is much more satisfying to me. I love the excitement of the snatch and grab. As long as the rat isn't to big for the reptile. Then there is nothing wrong with feeding live. Feeding F/T is for lazy people who want lazy reptiles. It's all a matter of convinence. No one stops to think that feeding F/T isn't good for the mentality to the reptile. As long as it is easy for them to feed and walk away and not have to bother with their reptiles. Most are looking to get by with as little devotion to their reptiles as possible. This is one way of doing so.
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Wes,
I don't see how feeding F/T or live reflects on someones level of devotion...can you elaborate? I know your statement was representative to the majority of reptile keepers who in this case would not be experienced, but for the most part everyone on this board has a great deal of experience. I don't think anyone of those people who feed F/T have any less devotion to their animals than you or I. I could argue that in the safety and love for their animals they don't feed live because they would hate to have something happen to it. Would this make them less devoted? Personally, I feed F/T and supervise every feeding to the end as I get just as much enjoyment out of my reptile eating F/T as I would live. I have done both as well. I also don't believe that a 5 minute encounter with live prey would make an animal any more active than F/T fed ones. Feeders as a stimulus I do agree with you there but to say ones animal is lazier than the next is subjective to many elements. Hell you could just have a super laid back animal on your hands. Animal personality isn't a factor here?
I don't see how feeding F/T or live reflects on someones level of devotion...can you elaborate? I know your statement was representative to the majority of reptile keepers who in this case would not be experienced, but for the most part everyone on this board has a great deal of experience. I don't think anyone of those people who feed F/T have any less devotion to their animals than you or I. I could argue that in the safety and love for their animals they don't feed live because they would hate to have something happen to it. Would this make them less devoted? Personally, I feed F/T and supervise every feeding to the end as I get just as much enjoyment out of my reptile eating F/T as I would live. I have done both as well. I also don't believe that a 5 minute encounter with live prey would make an animal any more active than F/T fed ones. Feeders as a stimulus I do agree with you there but to say ones animal is lazier than the next is subjective to many elements. Hell you could just have a super laid back animal on your hands. Animal personality isn't a factor here?
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Here this proves it make them lazy. The Burms in the video don't even strike they just eat and look at you. The only excitement in this was holding the rat.
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Harveysherps said:
That sentence doesnt even make sense. It's much more a hassle to leave mice thawing overnight or to set them in hot water to defrost than to simply toss a mouse in a cage. As far as lazy animals go - feeding live nor f/t prey would make an animal lazier or more active in a captive environment. That is a just absurd, that would have something more to do with improper husbandry not feeding methods.
(i.e. subpar temperatures = subpar activity levels for just one example)
I beleive I brought up the point about live prey being more mentally stimulating than f/t. But... live prey is by no means the only way to provide mental stimulation to a captive reptile
(example: rearranging cage decor)
:bs2
Well im glad it entertains you to see your animal kill, a bit of a childish mindset IMO but but as long as it makes you (not your reptile) happy then that's all that counts
Besides the fact that it could attack your reptile, besides that fact that they can carry parasites that can be passed on to your pet.
Hell it's even illegal to feed live in some countries, go figure
Now I'm glad everyone could act very mature about this discussion.
Everyone knows the Pro's and Con's of feeding live, Does this thread need to continue????
:feba
Like i said before i dont feed live cause its more natrual i feed live cause i feel the my tegus just sit around all day doing nothing and would i would like to keep their sense's up... Puff would you feel better if i let the mouse go in my living room and let my tegus chase after it? cause i still think my tegus would get it no matter what.
Harveysherps said:
You could use tongs to make it more mentally stimulating
I dont see very much laziness here... do you?
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AB^ said:
Tongs are for Wimps
