Black Throat Monitor Babies

[MMRR - jif]

I raised a lot of baby tegus years ago. Personally, I never handled them much when they were little. As soon as they put on a little size they calmed down and seemed to take to handling better than when they were little babies. They seem to have different personalities than monitors.

I also have taken in several adult rescue tegus over the years. Some of them came in with aggressive personalities. I approached working with them the same way that I do any unsocialized rescue lizard that we get in here...I spend as much time as necessary to gain their trust. I don't force handle. I leave them alone to acclimate for a while, then slowing start mucking around in the enclosure without physical contact. I slowly start introducing contact as tolerated without producing stress. Bribery in some of these cases works really well. I've yet to have a tegu here that couldn't be handled safely after a while.

 

[greentriple]

Just the sort of response I was looking for, honest. Thanks. Any other ideas out there?

 

[VARNYARD]

greentriple, let me ask you this? Would you rather have a feral cat, rather than a tame one? Or, a wild wolf or feral dog rather then the tame dog?

The same could be said about many other animals that are kept and bred as pets.

Yes, I am trying to take the first steps towards domestication in tegus. Just like any other animal that started out wild and then bred down to where they are now.

 

[greentriple]

I'm not taking a position. I'm just curious as to the concept in light of what was written about Monitors. It's just to create food for thought, a different perspective. The devils advocate. I don't know if it's wrong or right, I'm not sure there is a wrong or right.

Some wrote they like monitors being monitors and "not breaking" them. I was wondering if this is true for Tegus.

OMT - isn't the whole idea of "breeding down" problematic? (Again I'm not taking a position, just posing the question)

 

[Harveysherps]

I have to say that I agree with both sides. I have found that most monitors calm down with age and size. The small ones seem more aggressive. Tegus are naturally curious. Bert at Agama has proof of that in his video. You can't compare the two as far as that goes. I keep monitors cause I like carnivores. Tegus switch around to much to suit me. For all you that have posted pics Thank you. Keep them coming. I'm glad to see we have some serious monitor keepers posting.

 

[VARNYARD]

greentriple: Some wrote they like monitors being monitors and "not breaking" them. I was wondering if this is true for Tegus.

Where is breeding for a tamer animal "breaking them"? I think you are jumping from one mountain to another.

Without domesticated animals where would we be now? Still wild cave men ourselves?

I do not agree with breaking the spirit or as you say " spark of life" with tegus. You have not read the taming thread here or you would know better than to run with this.

You might want to read this: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21">http://www.tegutalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21</a><!-- m -->

Then you can tell me how being gentle is "breaking them".

 

[Harveysherps]

This is my opinion on handling reptiles. I don't handle mine until it's time to move them to clean the cage. I have several cages. So I can just move them to another cage. I do this with all my reptiles. Now as far as how the reptiles react to being handled is entirely up to them. Some try to kill you . Some don't mind a bit. Some you just have to over power to move them. I have no problems with this. I do what is needed to get the job done. I don't hold my reptiles in my lap for periods of time. If someone wants to stop in. I'll get them out and show them to people. Most tame down with time. There are a few that don't. But they still get the same care as the puppy dog tame ones. Each reptile has it's own ways. You have to be able to adjust to that. Does this stress them? Not if you know what you are doing. Monitors and Tegus are not in the same class as far as intelligence. So each is handled different. Bert says he saw first hand of wild Tegus taking food offered and stealing food. If you haven't given his site a read you should do so. It is eye opening. As far as Bobby I agree with the way he breeds his Tegus 100%. I don't agree with Bert 100%. But I respect what Bert does with all that is in me. Now Like I said Monitors are different kind of dog shall we say. So now that is where we need some monitor breeders to chime in. I am not a breeder but I have studied the subject . But I have never proven my theories so the remain as such Theories. Does anyone have any Breeding experience? If so chime in I would love to hear it.

 

[dicy]

download the new biawak there is a papper about breeding albigs in it
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://varanidae.org/biawak">http://varanidae.org/biawak</a><!-- m -->

 

[greentriple]

The term "spark of life" is not my term, I borrowed it from another poster.

Bobby,

I'm not taking a position, just raising a topic for discussion. Clearly it is contrary to your goals to not tame Tegus or offer "tame" Tegus. It would be a bad business practice to advertise "Wild Man Eating Tegus" for example.

I'm simply curious as to what the different perspectives are on handling, taming and keeping reptiles.

In my defense, I'm not jumping from any mountains, simply inquiring about peoples opinions. An opinion can be that the two speicies are so different that such a discussion is like comparing apples to oranges. To this I would say, well they are both fruits, let's start there.

I have read the taming thread, and I did so very early on. I'm not dispting what is in there, I'm simply asking about what people think about taming reptiles in general.

As for domesticated animals, well that's a whole different can of worms. I don't think it's fair to compare a domesticated dog with a domesticated tegu or for that matter a cat. Some may disagree.

 

[VARNYARD]

Thats funny because I thought it was you that wrote:

greentriple: Anyway, are we breaking some of their spirit or " spark of life" with all the handling and "taming"? Are we forever altering them by tying to breed them into "dog tame" reptiles?

Just questions. What do you all think?

As for domesticated animals, well that's a whole different can of worms. I don't think it's fair to compare a domesticated dog with a domesticated tegu or for that matter a cat. Some may disagree.

What is not fair to compare? I would say it is more than fair, not only these animals but a whole host of others.

Just do a search on pets, tell me the ones you call domesticated pets and what ones are not. You can also tell me what one of these animals have not been bred to become domestic pets.

We could even take it farther then that, we could search domesticated animals, the list will even grow larger. So tell me why you think this same thing cannot be done with reptiles like tegus.

How does domestication start? Is it done by selective breeding, is inbreeding needed to cause domestication?

 

[greentriple]

excellent questuions. I would argue domestication began with a need. For example, cattle = food; dog = protection/hunting; cat = ratter. Other animals have clearly been domesticated for "pet" purposes, some birds although initally birds of prey were for hunting.

Let's look at dogs, with the exception of companion breeds, dogs known in Spain as "Perro Lame Conos" dogs were bred and domesticated as working dogs, hunting dogs, guard dogs and even fighting dogs. Other than a "companion" animal what would a tegu be bred for? Do tegus give affection as do dogs? More so do they give affection to eachother as do dogs?

 

[Harveysherps]

This is just my opinion. But dogs and cats made their choice to live with man. They have been keeping company with humans for hundreds of years. I've not seen the first reptile do that. Nor have I ever owned a reptile that showed affection like a dog or cat. I myself don't feel the same way about my reptiles as I do my dogs and cats. It's a whole differnt thing. When you feed your dog do you feed him a live food item and let him kill to eat. There really is no comparing of these animals. There are huge differences in Reptiles and dogs and such. Don't mean to offend when I say this but. When a reptile is sold as puppy dog tame. It's all a marketing ploy. To make it more sellable. I myself am a hobbiest. I keep them cause i want to. Not to make money but to enjoy the experience. I do breed some stuff. But it is mainly just to see if I can. I can see where a person is building a business around their reptile would think differently. This is just my personal opinion. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong here.

 

[VARNYARD]

Does there need to be another reason other than for a companion?

We have rats, mice, guinea Pigs, hamsters, gerbils, Opossums, ferrets, Pigeons, sugar gliders, and a whole host of birds. These animals were domesticated for companionship.

Britannica: domestication: the process of hereditary reorganization of wild animals and plants into domestic and cultivated forms according to the interests of people. In its strictest sense it refers to the initial stage of human mastery of wild animals and plants. The fundamental distinction of domesticated animals and plants from their wild ancestors is that they are created by human.

 

[ApriliaRufo]

I don't think you tame anything. You may think you do, and the word tame sounds good, but a tegu is what it is. All you can do is build a trust between him/her and you. He may trust you and you may trust you, but he will still do what he wants, and you have no control over his actions, only his environment. There isn't really a word for the keeping of reptiles. Nothing is "puppy dog tame". Bobby's tegus and the ones we keep as pets are very "well adjusted to captivity".

 

[VARNYARD]

I will say this, I have some tegus I would trust around a child much faster then many of the so called "puppy tame dogs".

I do have tegus that want human contact, they also are not going to attack people like the many dogs have. So we can look at it many different ways, in the end look at the history of both of them.

Here is one of them:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfSvW5kjghQ">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfSvW5kjghQ</a><!-- m -->

 

[ApriliaRufo]

I will say this, I have some tegus I would trust around a child much faster then many of the so called "puppy tame dogs".

I do have tegus that want human contact, they also are not going to attack people like the many dogs have.

I completely agree with that.

 

[Harveysherps]

To sum it all up in a nut shell. It's up to each and everyone of us. As reptile keepers . To educate the world . Why we do what we do. These forums help us share our opinions and veiws on the subject we choose. I would have never guessed a couple of pics of 2 little bitty Monitors would spur on such a great thread. I have really enjoyed this thread. I hope we can all learn from what we post. Cause if we don't we have all wasted our time. I for one have learned a great deal . This thread has been produced by intelligent people . Thank you all for taking the time to post. I really hope this thread keeps producing some info. On the monitor species though. If you got pics. Lets see them. If you got an opinion on how they should be raised. Let's here it. But debating the Reptile to dog companion preference. Well that deserves a thread of it's own. I think it would really make a great topic alone.

 

[MMRR - jif]

I have to agree with ApriliaRufo here. I no longer refer to a reptile as "tame". I prefer the term socialized, and there are various degrees of socialization. You will not achieve any level of socialization without first earning the trust of the animal that you want to socialize.

I have Rhino iguanas that behave more like dogs than they do like lizards. My oldest female will search for me in the house and when she finds me she will place her front feet on my leg to be picked up. She seems to enjoy being held and carried around like a baby. Several of my Rhinos are used for education and can be displayed, in the open not in a cage, for several days at expos and events. Thousands of people approach them and are allowed to touch and pet them if they ask permission first. I still understand that these are wild animals and I am always in very close proximity in case something unusual should happen, but these animals are very well socialized and trustworthy, in my opinion.
Felix, my Argentine tegu, would behave in the same manner as the Rhinos, allowing people to approach while he is totally exposed, but only for short periods of time before he would retreat under a towel. Felix is also well socialized but not as tolerant as the Rhinos.

Monitors, in my opinion, are a whole different critter. I have yet to have a monitor that I could socialize to the point where it felt comfortable in the situation described above. They always seem to stress quite easily and are totally unpredictable. I have tried to use blackthroats, black roughnecks, savannahs, and the argus for presentations. All of the above have not faired well when handled in this way and have always come home stressed, hiding, and non-feeding for several days. It just wasn't worth it to me to see them so uncomfortable. The only monitors that I now take to exhibitions are the Timors and they have a travelling enclosure that is an exact replica of their enclosure at home so that they feel at home even while away.

One other point...has anyone ever seen a "dog tame" monitor that was over 10 years old? I think the stress that they undergo with all of the mucking around shortens their lifespan considerably.
Felix and Atom at the Grand Rapids Reptile expo.

Bubbles and Scrub with friend Joanie at Reptile Fest in Chicago. If you look close on the left side you can see a juvie albino tegu.

 

[Mike]

Darn, I missed it. I was waiting for a debate\discussion like this. My thoughts have already been posted, sadly.

 

[greentriple]

I think these are all excellent points of view and the very reason I asked the a questions in the first place. Thank you everyone for sharing, I've learned quite a bit and know more now than when I started this day.

Finally, in my defense - Bobby - when you see something I write in quotes it means one of two things: 1) I'm either quoting someone or 2) I'm loosely referring to a perceived or alleged meaning in the word or phrase. If it's 100% my opinion there will be no quotes.

Thank you, that is all.....