Worried about Kimo, take a look please!

[Little Wise Owl]

I'd lean more towards a nutritional deficiency. Ground turkey and calcium simply doesn't have enough nutrients to be a balanced food on its own.

That reminds me:
You should not feed raw eggs to your Tegu, I remember a video a while back of your red lapping up some egg yolk.



Thanks for all the help everyone!

This thread isn't about me and there's absolutely nothing wrong with raw egg yolks fed as a part of a varied diet

 

[james.w]

Because I knew a lot of people's tegus have nutritional/vitamin deficiency, and they all have two major signs:

1. Mouse like this thread.
2. Shedding.

Thank you.

I agree it could be a nutrition/vitamin deficiency, but the fact he is feeding only turkey and only using calcium once a week seems like a problem. Also the fact that his uvb is farther away than the bulb is effective also seem like issues that could be contributing to the problem.

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I'd lean more towards a nutritional deficiency. Ground turkey and calcium simply doesn't have enough nutrients to be a balanced food on its own.

That reminds me:
You should not feed raw eggs to your Tegu, I remember a video a while back of your red lapping up some egg yolk.



Thanks for all the help everyone!

I find it kind of ironic that you would give what seems to be sarcastic advice when you are having the issues you are with your own tegu. I have fed my tegu and monitors raw egg before and have seen no negative effects come from it.

 

[Little Wise Owl]

A nutritional/vitamin deficiency could/would be caused by only feeding turkey and weekly calcium. Carnivorous omnivores and carnivores themselves need more than just meat and calcium to thrive. No one can really tell unless he's taken to a reptile vet though or if he shows more specific clinical signs.

 

[james.w]

A nutritional/vitamin deficiency could/would be caused by only feeding turkey and weekly calcium. Carnivorous omnivores and carnivores themselves need more than just meat and calcium to thrive. No one can really tell unless he's taken to a reptile vet though or if he shows more specific clinical signs.

I agree, only a vet can tell 100%.

 

[Max713]

I'd lean more towards a nutritional deficiency. Ground turkey and calcium simply doesn't have enough nutrients to be a balanced food on its own.

That reminds me:
You should not feed raw eggs to your Tegu, I remember a video a while back of your red lapping up some egg yolk.



Thanks for all the help everyone!

This thread isn't about me and there's absolutely nothing wrong with raw egg yolks fed as a part of a varied diet

Wasn't making it about you, was merely making a statement.

Well, according to some in this thread, and both Bobby (Varnyard), and Johhny (TeguTerra), it is not ok to feed any raw egg product.

Because I knew a lot of people's tegus have nutritional/vitamin deficiency, and they all have two major signs:

1. Mouse like this thread.
2. Shedding.

Thank you.

I agree it could be a nutrition/vitamin deficiency, but the fact he is feeding only turkey and only using calcium once a week seems like a problem. Also the fact that his uvb is farther away than the bulb is effective also seem like issues that could be contributing to the problem.
You say that like I was only offering Turkey. Like I said, he was/is a picky little bastard, and refused any/all fruits, fish(only tried once), and even whole live pinkies.

---

I'd lean more towards a nutritional deficiency. Ground turkey and calcium simply doesn't have enough nutrients to be a balanced food on its own.

That reminds me:
You should not feed raw eggs to your Tegu, I remember a video a while back of your red lapping up some egg yolk.



Thanks for all the help everyone!

I find it kind of ironic that you would give what seems to be sarcastic advice when you are having the issues you are with your own tegu. I have fed my tegu and monitors raw egg before and have seen no negative effects come from it.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of irony, and how in the hell to you get sarcasm from a straight forward statement with no form of implied inflection?
When I said "that reminds me", I was referring to Owl posting in this thread, reminded me of the video he posted of his Tegu eating raw egg yolk, and I made a statement that it is not recommended. Just because you haven't seen any negative effects, doesn't mean there are none...
Both of you that quick to be negative?

I assure you there was no hostility or sarcasm implied. What so ever.



And back on topic, could anyone post any info on previous cases of malnutrition due to a limited diet(lack of vitamins), and the causes of said lack of vitamins?
I ask because I had not seen/heard of that before, and from what I've been told, and investigated further, it seems MBD is much more likely.

---

Still on the search for a reputable reptile vet in the area as well...

---

 

[james.w]

Here is something I just found with a quick Google search.

Nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP): The causes for NSHP can be multiple, but it is mostly due to a severe imbalance of the Ca ration in the diet, no access to a full spectrum (UV-B) light source and a lack of activated vitamin D3 or a combination of the above. If not enough Ca is provided in the diet or if no vitamin D3 is available, demineralization of the skeleton (osteomalacia in adults and rickets in juveniles) occurs. Pathological fractures and chronic abscesses, especially around the jaw, are common findings.

Signs of metabolic bone disease include hard knobs in the long bones of the legs, bumps along the vertebral column of the back and tail, softening or hard swelling of the jaw.

Symptoms of Vitamin A Deficiency:
The first symptom owners typically notice is swollen eyelids (especially in turtles) -- this can become so pronounced that the eyes cannot be opened. Other symptoms include:

* Swelling around eyes and mouth
* Nasal discharge
* Stomatitis (inflammation of the lining of mouth)
* Weakness
* Loss of appetite; weight loss
* Decreased growth rate
* Can be fatal in severe cases

As far as raw eggs are concerned, it is fine to feed on occasion. Raw eggs contain avidin, which prevents biotin from being processed. This is only an issue if feeding a diet of 100% raw eggs.

I am going to leave your "sarcastic" comment issue alone.

 

[Little Wise Owl]

I think of a nutritional deficiency because meat only with a calcium supplement is lacking many vitamins and minerals. Ground turkey doesn't contain any significant amounts of vitamins. Vitamins which are necessary for growth and skin health. Ground turkey contains little to no vitamin A, very little of vitamin E and K, and almost no C or D vitamins.

If your guy will eat live insects like crickets and various worms, definitely add those back into his diet. Get him eating some liver if you can (contains a lot of vitamin A) but don't over-do the liver as vitamin A toxicity IS a possibility. Add as much variety as you can at this point and see if he improves while you search for a Herp. Vet.





And for the record, there's nothing wrong with raw eggs. Salmonella is a non-issue for animals which regularly consume raw meat as their primary diet. The only reason people are so worried about it is because of the avidin/bioton issue. Avidin is a protein which binds Biotin (a B vitamin). Biotin is necessary for healthy skin.

Thing is, Avidin is only found in egg WHITES. Yolks on the other hand are very rich in Biotin. Feeding raw eggs everyday or egg whites moreso than yolks could be dangerous because you could run into a biotin deficiency. Eggs shouldn't be fed every day anyway. I only offer my ferrets, dogs and cats raw eggs once a week. I offer egg yolks more often because there's no avidin to worry about.

Feeding raw eggs as a part of a varied diet to ANY carnivorous animal (ferrets, cats, dogs, tegus, etc) is a non-issue.

 

[laurarfl]

And if you supplement with B vitamins, feeding raw egg whites isn't an issue, either. The raw egg/avidin issue popped up when monitor keepers were feeding a huge proportion of raw eggs to their lizards.

None of us are herp vets and we are just speculating over the Internet...just keeping it real and not trying to offend anyone. There are probably a few things going on that are diet related. On the one hand, there is obviously a calcium deficiency in the diet, a lack of UVB, a D vitamin deficiency because the calcium prob doesn't have D3 and the UVB issue, and other vitamin deficiencies from being fed only turkey. Sorry, Max, I don't mean to sound harsh, just being objective. So everyone is right. Calcium concerns bones and muscle, so there will be weakness. B vitamins concern nerve transmission and skin health, among other things, so there will be weakness. Vit A also affect skin and connective tissue. Many of things together can add up to soft jaws, affected skin elasticity, muscle weakness, all sorts of things that can show up as that little open lip.

But the bottom line is that the little guy needs a serious diet change with more calcium and multivitamin supplementation and a better UVB situation. Then he can get better and Max can have a healthy Kimo again.

---

Instead of editing, I'm just going to add another post. I went back and caught up. It was kind of confusing to read and find the info. At this point, I would try to get Kimo to eat some foods that are naturally higher in Vit D and calcium. Vit A and D will come from liver, so if he eats some chicken or beef liver, that will help. My tegus aren't crazy about beef liver but will eat some chicken liver once in a while. As for fruit, papaya is naturally higher in calcium than other fruits and it comes canned from ZooMed (I think it's them). I would try some F/T rodents, too, to get natural vitamins and minerals. I know you're not a fan of raw egg, but a little egg yolk may entice him to eat. His appetite is likely down due to whatever is going on, but he really needs to get some quality food and supplements in there. Best of wishes for the little guy...he's such a good looking tegu and you obviously worry about him and want the best.

Have you seen this link? I wasn't sure if someone posted it or not.
http://herpvetconnection.com/

 

[chelvis]

So in conclution a varied diet is what is best. It could be Ca defficancy in that case lowering the bulbs and variring the diet will help, or a vit defficancy which changing the diet will help. It could be a bit of both considering the curcumstance.

As for the egg thing, its fine in moderation, I have heard Owls diet and egg is not a primary food, there for its fine. The other things that are fed to supplement any vit lost. The problem comes when people fed eggs to young tegus and they get hooked. There are mulitpal treads about people feedign hatclings eggs and turkey and the tegu will refuse to eat anything else that becomes the problem.

Lets face it no one (not even vets) really are good with tegu nutrition, only resently have vets really paid attention to nutrition at all. Best course for Kimo is to get those UV lights closer or a MVB, this will help with vit absorbtion as well as Ca absorbtion. Second action which i have seen you have done is to get different foods in. As for outside for such a young tegu and a mild case i would say the MVB is fine.

 

[Max713]

And if you supplement with B vitamins, feeding raw egg whites isn't an issue, either. The raw egg/avidin issue popped up when monitor keepers were feeding a huge proportion of raw eggs to their lizards.

None of us are herp vets and we are just speculating over the Internet...just keeping it real and not trying to offend anyone. There are probably a few things going on that are diet related. On the one hand, there is obviously a calcium deficiency in the diet, a lack of UVB, a D vitamin deficiency because the calcium prob doesn't have D3 and the UVB issue, and other vitamin deficiencies from being fed only turkey. Sorry, Max, I don't mean to sound harsh, just being objective. So everyone is right. Calcium concerns bones and muscle, so there will be weakness. B vitamins concern nerve transmission and skin health, among other things, so there will be weakness. Vit A also affect skin and connective tissue. Many of things together can add up to soft jaws, affected skin elasticity, muscle weakness, all sorts of things that can show up as that little open lip.

But the bottom line is that the little guy needs a serious diet change with more calcium and multivitamin supplementation and a better UVB situation. Then he can get better and Max can have a healthy Kimo again.

---

Instead of editing, I'm just going to add another post. I went back and caught up. It was kind of confusing to read and find the info. At this point, I would try to get Kimo to eat some foods that are naturally higher in Vit D and calcium. Vit A and D will come from liver, so if he eats some chicken or beef liver, that will help. My tegus aren't crazy about beef liver but will eat some chicken liver once in a while. As for fruit, papaya is naturally higher in calcium than other fruits and it comes canned from ZooMed (I think it's them). I would try some F/T rodents, too, to get natural vitamins and minerals. I know you're not a fan of raw egg, but a little egg yolk may entice him to eat. His appetite is likely down due to whatever is going on, but he really needs to get some quality food and supplements in there. Best of wishes for the little guy...he's such a good looking tegu and you obviously worry about him and want the best.

Have you seen this link? I wasn't sure if someone posted it or not.
http://herpvetconnection.com/

---

Be harsh!
The only thing I care about it Kimo's health, my own feelings can be sacrificed.

So in conclution a varied diet is what is best. It could be Ca defficancy in that case lowering the bulbs and variring the diet will help, or a vit defficancy which changing the diet will help. It could be a bit of both considering the curcumstance.

As for the egg thing, its fine in moderation, I have heard Owls diet and egg is not a primary food, there for its fine. The other things that are fed to supplement any vit lost. The problem comes when people fed eggs to young tegus and they get hooked. There are mulitpal treads about people feedign hatclings eggs and turkey and the tegu will refuse to eat anything else that becomes the problem.

Lets face it no one (not even vets) really are good with tegu nutrition, only resently have vets really paid attention to nutrition at all. Best course for Kimo is to get those UV lights closer or a MVB, this will help with vit absorbtion as well as Ca absorbtion. Second action which i have seen you have done is to get different foods in. As for outside for such a young tegu and a mild case i would say the MVB is fine.

Ok, I'm going to keep pushing new foods on him, like I said he tried a piece of heart for the first time yesterday, hoping the change will continue.
I put the bulb in the mail today, hoping to get that issue fixed asap. Actually took a measurement inside the enclosure, the tube is 20 from his basking spot, the bulb will be around 16" from the basking spot, maybe closer to 15". Think that would be satisfactory?

It's reassuring to hear that once he begins to improve, he will improve in many ways! (energy, strength, skin, appetite, etc)

 

[VARNYARD]

What about adding the beef liver I have on my care sheet?

 

[Max713]

What about adding the beef liver I have on my care sheet?

I'm thinking my next run to the store will be for beef liver/cod oil.



Small update, nothing really new...
Kimo refused any food today (not entirely unlike him), seems he's "sleepy" again.
Now, the only way for him to get better will be eating all the nutrients/vits he can.
At what point to I intervene and forcefully provide him with the vits/minerals/sustenance he needs? It's not that he's not eating (obviously), and I have no concerns with his body weight, he's very healthy looking, other than the problem at hand...

I'm sure that would only be a drastic measure, then again I want to put him on the fast track to full health. Recently (last week or so) he's been eating every day, in small amounts. Before that it was only every other day or so.
Is a need for forceful intervention a long way off like I'm hoping, or may it need to come sooner?

Thanks again.

 

[chelvis]

i would not force feed him if his weight is good. Force feeding can do more damage than good on a healthy tegu, either by having the tegu not trust you to sometimes getting food down the wrong pipe. Give him some time. He is going from a food he is use too and knows to something completly new. Its going to take some time before he realizes that this is food.

 

[laurarfl]

Bobby, I've tried beef liver and mine turn their nose up at it. They will eat chicken liver though. Liver would be a great source of vitamins at this point.

And yes...I think a varied diet is awesome...for people and animals.

I don't think you need to force feed, but perhaps assist feeding is a good idea. You can buy eye droppers or syringes at the store. I have gone to Walgreens and asked for small syringes without needles for hand feeding sick animals. If you tell them you have a sick lizard you need to give medicine to, they will look at you funny and laugh, but figure that story is so weird that it has to be the truth!

Get a small jar of Stage 1 chicken or turkey baby food and put a 1/2 teaspoon of calcium in it. Then syringe feed what you need. That's a higher dose of calcium than normal supplementation (about double) so I would only do it for the first week. You don't want to go too far the other way and have a diet too high in calcium. I see Zilla has a liquid calcium supplement that may be good for giving directly, but I've never used it before. I just threw away my multivitamins, but I would add some in to the baby food as well, but not as much. I'd put in 1/8 teaspoon in the whole jar. This is just what I would do. I came up with the numbers based on the RepCal directions for adding supplementation to a pound of food and then figured down to a 3-4 oz baby food jar. Oral calcium powder isn't really highly absorbed in the body anyway, so it's not something to overdose on.

I know the D3 issue is controversial, but I would add it into the diet for a little while during this recovery stage. You can add it through liver, fish liver oil, or Vit D added calcium. You can also water down the baby food a bit to make sure Kimo is staying hydrated. Just open his mouth a bit and squirt some into his mouth, sideways and not down his throat. The idea is to get it into his mouth so that he swallows it, you're not forcing it or squirting it down his throat.

If he doesn't eat and get the calcium in orally, then he will need to go to the vet to get either a liquid calcium gluconate or calcium injections. At that point the vet can also determine if there are any other issues going on.


haha, Chelvis, we must have been posting at the same time! Max, it is really up to you. I think getting some supplements in him will increase his appetite. The calcium and low B vitamin definitely lower the appetite. Then you end up with a vicious cycle of not eating and nutritional deficiencies.

 

[herpocrite27]

I have dealt with MBD so I feel I should add my 2 in. I wouldnt feed many bannana's or eggs. I've read that too many of these two in paticular, will hinder how your Gu takes in calcium. My MBD was caused by too many eggs and a 10.0 UVB tube bulb that didnt put out enough UVB.
Just be glad this isnt happening right before hibernation like mine was. Mine didnt want to lay under the lights or eat, all he wanted to do was hibernate. After multiple trips to the vet and countless force feedings, I just let him hibernate. When he woke up in Febuary, he started eating and laying under his powersun. Now he has grown well over a foot since February and no lasting effects from the MBD. I dont think the shots did as much as getting the power Sun and limiting eggs.
I feed: chicken livers, chicken hearts, venison "deer meat", turkey necks "ground up", fish, rats, mice, beef liver, ground turkey, cod liver oil and a half hardboiled egg "once a week".
Dont get discouraged, he should be fine. I hope this helped somewhat. good luck with your little guy

 

[carcharios]

Diego had the same thing when he was about that size. He went for several months not eating and partially hibernating and when he awoke, I also noticed a small bulge on one side of his jaw. I took him to the vet thinking it was in infection. She checked it out and saw no signs of bacterial infection however. Regardless, she did give me some oral antibiotics but I was never good about administering them.

Long story short, a few months later, I took Diego out of his inside aquarium, moved him to the outside rabbit hutch set up, starting feeding him chicken necks, and aside from tripling his size, the bulge mysteriously disappeared. My guess is that it was either caused by a shortage of calcium, which the chicken necks corrected, or a shortage of UV, which moving him outside corrected. Either way, the bulge in his jaw is now completely gone and there are no signs that it ever existed.

 

[Max713]

Update for everyone:
Kimo's doing a lot better, still a pretty picky eater, can't get him to eat much more that turkey, but at least it is now heavily supplemented. Got the powersun back in his enclosure too.
He just went into shed today, hoping it goes smoothly, and his jaw is looking a lot better, he's been even more active these days.

 

[Rhetoric]

He does look a lot better, glad hes improving! I love when they get the little socks around their feet lololol.

 

[Little Wise Owl]

What are you supplementing his turkey with?

 

[Max713]

What are you supplementing his turkey with?

Repti-Cal w/o D3