New Sumatran Water Monitor

[james.w]

I wouldn't feed goldfish at all.

 

[Dana C]

[attachment=4629][attachment=4628]I know this thread really is about Sumatrans but I found a couple of pictures on Varanus. nl that I thought you might enjoy. This boy is the largest pet lizard I have ever seen. This guy is a water monitor but I don't know where he is from.

 

[yulyani]

The data on thiaminase content comes from various sources, mostly from the National research council (1982), Deutsch & Hasler (1943), Greig & Gnaedinger (1971) and Hilker & Peter (1966); see also the literature list at the end of the article. The lists are far from complete, but most of the usually marketed and so far examined species are enlisted. Although primarily based on coldwater food fish and invertebrates, thiaminase content information exists for several tropical species widely marketed, and these been included accordingly.
Species that contain thiaminase

Freshwater fish
Family Cyprinidae (Minnows or carps):
Common bream (Abramis brama)
Central stoneroller (Campostoma anomalum)
Goldfish (Carassius auratus)
Common carp (Cyprinus carpio)
Emerald shiner (Notropis atherinoides)
Spottail shiner (Notropis hudsonius)
Rosy red, Fathead minnow (Pimephales promelas)
Olive barb (Puntius sarana)

Family Salmonidae (Salmonids):
Lake whitefish (Coregonus clupeaformis)
Round whitefish (Prosopium cylindraceum)

Family Catostomidae (Suckers):
White sucker (Catostomus commersonii)
Bigmouth buffalo (Ictiobus cyprinellus)

Family Ictaluridae (North American freshwater catfishes):
Brown bullhead catfish (Ameiurus nebulosus)
Channel catfish (Ictalurus punctatus)

Other families:
Bowfin (Amia calva) - family Amiidae (Bowfins)
Burbot (Lota lota) - family Lotidae (Hakes and burbots)
White bass (Morone chrysops) - family Moronidae (Temperate basses)
Rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax) - family Osmeridae (Smelts)
Loach, Weatherfish (Misgurnus sp.) - family Cobitidae (Loaches)

Brackish (freshwater to marine) fish

Family Clupeidae (Herrings):
Alewife (Alosa pseudoharengus)
Gizzard Shad (Dorosoma cepedianum)

Other families:
Sea lamprey (Petromyzon marinus) - family Petromyzontidae (Lampreys)
Fourhorn Sculpin (Triglopsis quadricornis) - family Cottidae (Sculpins)
Salmon (sp. indet., processed and salted, probably Oncorhynchus sp.) - family Salmonidae (Salmonids)

Marine fish

Family Engraulidae (Anchovies):
Broad-striped anchovy (Anchoa hepsetus)
Californian anchovy (Engraulis mordax)
Goldspotted grenadier anchovy (Coilia dussumieri)

Family Clupeidae (Herrings):
Atlantic herring (Clupea harrengus)
Atlantik menhaden (Brevoortia tyrannus)
Gulf menhaden (Brevoortia patronus)
Razor belly sardine (Harengula jaguana)
Sauger (Harengula jaguana)

Family Scombridae (Mackerels, tunas, bonitos):
Chub mackerel (Scomber japonicus)
Skipjack tuna (Katsuwonus pelamis)
Yellowfin tuna (Neothunnus macropterus)

Family Lutjanidae (Snappers):
Green jobfish (Aprion virescens)
Ruby snapper (Etelis carbunculus)
Crimson jobfish (Pristipomoides filamentosus)

Family Carangidae (Jacks):
Giant trevally (Caranx ignobilis)
Doublespotted queenfish (Scomberoides lysan)
Bigeye scad (Selar crumenophthalmus)

Family Mullidae (Goatfishes):
Red Sea goatfish (Mulloidichthys auriflamma)
Yellowstripe goatfish (Mulloidichthys samoensis)
Manybar goatfish (Parupeneus multifasciatus)

Other families:
American butterfish (Peprilus triacanthus) - family Stromateidae (Butterfishes)
Southern ocellated moray (Gymnothorax ocellatus) - family Muraenidae (Moray eels)
Bonefish (Albula vulpes) - family Albulidae (Bonefishes)
Milkfish (Chanos chanos) - family Chanidae (Milkfish)
Common dolphinfish (Coryphaena hippurus) - family Coryphaenidae (Dolphinfishes)
Hawaiian flagtail (Kuhlia sandvicensis) - family Kuhliidae (Aholeholes)
Black cod (sp. indet.) - family Moridae (Morid cods)
Flathead mullet (Mugil cephalus) - family Mugilidae (Mullets)
Sixfinger threadfin (Polydactylus sexfilis) - family Polynemidae (Threadfins)
Regal parrot (Scarus dubius) - family Scaridae (Parrotfishes)
Swordfish (Xiphias gladius) - family Xiphiidae (Swordfish)

Invertebrates

Bivalves:
Ocean quahog (Artica islandica)
Clam (Tellina spp.)
Cherrystone, Chowder, Steamer clams (family Veneridae)
Pigtoe mussel (Pleurobema cordatum)
Scallop (Pecten grandis)
Hawaiian clam (sp. indet.; extremely high in thiaminase)
Blue mussel (Mytilus galloprovincialis)

Gastropods:
Limpet (Helcioniscus sp.)

Cephalopods:
Hawaiian flying squid (Nototodarus hawaiiensis)

Crustaceans:
Prawn, Tiger shrimp (Penaeus spp.)


"The flesh of this Brazilian ocellated moray Gymnothorax ocellatus contains thiaminase. Makes a better pet fish than food fish, anyway!"


Species that do not contain thiaminaseFreshwater fish

Family Centrarchidae (North American Sunfishes):
Largemouth bass (Micropterus salmoides)
Northern rock bass (Ambloplites rupestris)
Northern smallmouth bass (Micropterus dolomieu)
Blue gill (Lepomis macrochirus)
Black crappie (Pomoxis nigromaculatus)
Pumpkinseed (Lepomis gibbosus)

Family Percidae (Perches):
Yellow perch (Perca flavescens)
Walleye (Sander vitreus)

Family Salmonidae (Salmonids):
Bloater (Coregonus hoyi)
Lake trout (Salvelinus namaycush)
Rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)

Other families:
Ayu (Plecoglossus altivelis) - family Plecoglossidae (Ayu fish)
Longnose gar (Lepisosteus osseus) - family Lepisosteidae (Gars)
Northern Pike (Esox lucius) - family Esocidae (Pikes)

Brackish (freshwater to marine) fish
Family Salmonidae (Salmonids):
Cisco, Lake herring (Coregonus artedi)
Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar)
Coho salmon (Oncorhynchus kisutch)
Sea trout (Salmo trutta)

Other families:
Common eel (Anguilla anguilla) - family Anguillidae (True eels)
Pond smelt (Hypomesus olidus) - family Osmeridae (Smelts)

Marine fish
Family Pleuronectidae (Righteye flounders):
Winter flounder (Pseudopleuronectes americanus)
Winter flounder, Lemon sole (Pseudopleuronectes americanus)
American plaice (Hippoglossoides platessoides)
Yellowtail flounder (Limanda ferruginea)
Atlantic halibut (Hippoglossus hippoglossus)
European plaice (Pleuronectes platessa)

Family Gadidae (Cods and haddocks)
Atlantic cod (Gadus morhua)
Haddock (Melanogrammus aeglefinus)
Saithe, Pollock (Pollachius spp.)

Family Sciaenidae (Drums or croakers):
Atlantic croaker (Micropogonias undulates)
Southern kingfish (Menticirrhus americanus)
Spot croaker (Leiostomus xanthurus)
Silver seatrout (Cynoscion nothus)
Sand weakfish (Cynoscion arenarius)

Family Carangidae (Jacks):
Greater amberjack (Seriola dumerilii)
Yellowtail scad (Atule mate)
Mackerel scad (Decapterus pinnulatus)

Family Labridae (Wrasses):
Cunner (Tautogolabrus adspersus)
Tautog (Tautoga onitis)

Family Scombridae (Mackerels, tunas, bonitos):
Atlantic mackerel (Scomber scombrus)
Kawakawa (Euthynnus affinis)

Other families:
Tusk (Brosme brosme) - family Lotidae (Hakes and burbots)
Largehead hairtail (Trichiurus lepturus) - family Trichiuridae (Cutlassfishes)
Piked dogfish (Squalus acanthias) - family Squalidae (Dogfish sharks)
Hake (Urophycis spp.) - family Phycidae (Phycid hakes)
Inshore lizardfish (Synodus foetens) - family Synodontidae (Lizardfishes)
Mullet (Mugil spp.) - family Mugilidae (Mullets)
Scup, Southern porgy (Stenotomus chrysops) - family Sparidae (Porgies)
Ocean perch, redfish (Sebastes marinus) - family Sebastidae (Rockfishes)
Black seabass (Centropristis striata) - family Serranidae (Sea basses and Groupers)
Hardhead sea catfish (Ariopsis felis) - family Ariidae (Sea catfishes)
Searobin (Prionotus spp.) - family Triglidae (Searobins)
Silver hake (Merluccius bilinearis) - family Merlucciidae (Merluccid hakes)
Eyestripe surgeonfish (Acanthurus dussumieri) - family Acanthuridae (Surgeonfishes)
Atlantic blue marlin (Makaira nigricans) - family Istiophoridae (Billfishes)
Blotcheye soldierfish (Myripristis berndti) - family Holocentridae (Squirrelfishes, soldierfishes)
Glasseye (Heteropriacanthus cruentatus) - family Priacanthidae (Bigeyes or catalufas)
Great barracuda (Sphyraena barracuda) - family Sphyraenidae (Barracudas)
Invertebrates
Bivalves:
Cockle (Cardium spp.)

Crustaceans:
Marine shrimps (sp. indet.; Hawaii)
Portuguese crabs (sp. indet.)

Cephalopods:
Brief squid, calmar (Lolliguncula brevis)

thank you so so much for your answer I really appreciate it. So for safety i will offer them live Goldfish as moderation...not too much...is it ok you think? I read at the Reptile medicines book, the dead fish containts more Thiaminase compared with the living fish,..do you agree about it also...? thanks again Laura

---

I know this thread really is about Sumatrans but I found a couple of pictures on Varanus. nl that I thought you might enjoy. This boy is the largest pet lizard I have ever seen. This guy is a water monitor but I don't know where he is from.

he is awesome...... !!!! Do you meet him at the reptile park Dana...? He is very tame isn't he

 

[Dana C]

I haven't actually met him. I just saw the pictures posted by his owner who has two clutches of eggs both of whom he fathered. The owner says that big boy is very tame, very approachable monitor. Perhaps I can post some of the other pictures of him and his incredible enclosure.
He really is a "jaw dropping" sight to behold, especially the picture of him with he head held up for attention.

 

[yulyani]

I haven't actually met him. I just saw the pictures posted by his owner who has two clutches of eggs both of whom he fathered. The owner says that big boy is very tame, very approachable monitor. Perhaps I can post some of the other pictures of him and his incredible enclosure.
He really is a "jaw dropping" sight to behold, especially the picture of him with he head held up for attention.

yes I believe he is ! He is also quite lean for his size, and it's good for the health....he is super awesome....hihihihihi

 

[Dana C]

I haven't actually met him. I just saw the pictures posted by his owner who has two clutches of eggs both of whom he fathered. The owner says that big boy is very tame, very approachable monitor. Perhaps I can post some of the other pictures of him and his incredible enclosure.
He really is a "jaw dropping" sight to behold, especially the picture of him with he head held up for attention.

yes I believe he is ! He is also quite lean for his size, and it's good for the health....he is super awesome....hihihihihi

According to the owners thread, he weighs 75+ pounds. The owner also has a couple of additional males in the 7' plus range that he have bred several times to his Sumatran females. I guess he has a lot of eggs at the moment. I would send you the link but you have to register at Varanus.nl to access the forums but the owner of the site only opens registration a couple of times a year.

 

[yulyani]

I haven't actually met him. I just saw the pictures posted by his owner who has two clutches of eggs both of whom he fathered. The owner says that big boy is very tame, very approachable monitor. Perhaps I can post some of the other pictures of him and his incredible enclosure.
He really is a "jaw dropping" sight to behold, especially the picture of him with he head held up for attention.

yes I believe he is ! He is also quite lean for his size, and it's good for the health....he is super awesome....hihihihihi

According to the owners thread, he weighs 75+ pounds. The owner also has a couple of additional males in the 7' plus range that he have bred several times to his Sumatran females. I guess he has a lot of eggs at the moment. I would send you the link but you have to register at Varanus.nl to access the forums but the owner of the site only opens registration a couple of times a year.

thank you Dana I really appreciate it..... and my best regards to Big Boy....hihihi It's amazing.....30 kgs and still lean...? just amazing...I will try to register the varanus.nl

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I wouldn't feed goldfish at all.

I just asked my friend the reptiles seller,...and he said if we will feed goldfish, we should keep the fish first,....because fish has diseases that transmit to monitor and we should be sure the fish is healthy enough to be eaten by the lizards........what do you think james ?

 

[james.w]

I don't think there is any benefit from feeding goldfish, so I wouldn't bother. There are plenty of beneficial foods available.

 

[m3s4]

Could be because something is lacking in your husbandry.

Very good possibility for sure...I know it isn't perfect yet, but it's sufficient enough for him to eat, digest and stay hydrated.

Now that his diet and appetite are stabilized, I can mess with the enclosure set-up and arrangement. He was hanging out in a small plant I had in the enclosure, but his nails and body weight started mangling the leaves...I need to find a sturdy, tropical type plant that can withstand a small monitor so he can lounge in it when he sees fit.

Humidity is a constant 65% with 100% access to clean, fresh water in his tub at all times.

At this point, I'm taking it one step at a time.

 

[james.w]

One problem I see with taking it one step at a time is, once a problem is seen it will probably be too late. Monitors don't show illness until they are on death's door. I don't mean to sound negative, but improper husbandry is the number one killer of captive varanids. Too many people think they can do it "their way". If you want to have a long, happy life with this salvator, I would get him set up in a decent sized enclosure with a moist, burrowable substrate and keep him warm. When varanids are healthy and properly set up they will attempt to eat anything that comes near their mouth. The fact that yours won't eat screams something is off.

 

[m3s4]

Get a fuzzy or a small hopper, he should attack it if it's running around.

Please keep in mind, he's still too small for those.

When he arrived I'm guessing he was 4 weeks old...He might be 12" from his nose to the tip of his tail. An adult, large cricket would be a hassle for him atm. The 1/2" minnows are perfect size right now.

These minnows won't be a staple diet for him, and no, he'll never see any goldfish. However, as long as he's eating these, and can put on a little size, it's all good.

The crickets I tried were plenty active - he just didn't, and still doesn't, go for them.

Fish are his thing atm. Now, once he puts on some size, and for those of you that know anything about these, know that they grow extremely fast, I'll of course vary his diet and offer everything under the sun.

For now, this is working so I want to keep with what works until he's a little larger and can take different prey items.

Thanks for all the tips, as always, they are much appreciated.

---

One problem I see with taking it one step at a time is, once a problem is seen it will probably be too late. Monitors don't show illness until they are on death's door. I don't mean to sound negative, but improper husbandry is the number one killer of captive varanids. Too many people think they can do it "their way". If you want to have a long, happy life with this salvator, I would get him set up in a decent sized enclosure with a moist, burrowable substrate and keep him warm. When varanids are healthy and properly set up they will attempt to eat anything that comes near their mouth. The fact that yours won't eat screams something is off.

Roger that - I'll be making some changes to the enclosure and make sure the husbandry is closer to where it needs to be most definitely. Thanks for the advice and input.

 

[yulyani]

I don't think there is any benefit from feeding goldfish, so I wouldn't bother. There are plenty of beneficial foods available.

thank you james and I surely will notice your input...

 

[frost]

hey james, would you mind telling me what was wrong with the setup he had for the water? i havent looked into their setup for a while so i cant remember what they need. was it his temps or the humidity that was wrong? or something else? just curious..

 

[laurarfl]

As for the thiamimase, people used to question if there was more of it in live vs frozen fish. A dead fish isn't going to make an enzyme of course , but perhaps the cells rupture and release more th-ase, making it more measurable and the levels seem higher. Also, frozen fish is usually more widely available. Freezing does not destroy th-ase, but heating will, just as heating denatures all proteins and enzymes.

Goldfish also have another issue but I can't quite remember all the information. There was some concern that they were causing fatty liver disease in crocodilians, perhaps too much vit A and Vit E as well.

 

[m3s4]

As for the thiamimase, people used to question if there was more of it in live vs frozen fish. A dead fish isn't going to make an enzyme of course , but perhaps the cells rupture and release more th-ase, making it more measurable and the levels seem higher. Also, frozen fish is usually more widely available. Freezing does not destroy th-ase, but heating will, just as heating denatures all proteins and enzymes.

Goldfish also have another issue but I can't quite remember all the information. There was some concern that they were causing fatty liver disease in crocodilians, perhaps too much vit A and Vit E as well.

Without doing any further research, I can only add when I had cicilids and a few oscar's - we were told not to feed them goldfish and to keep goldfish out of their water...I heard they are very acidic and just the gold fish sharing the water with other fish can cause major water quality issues and totally change the PH - higher of course.

If this is indeed the case or at least partially true, I would think ingesting too many of them would surely cause problems with anything ingesting them.

Just my 2.

 

[james.w]

hey james, would you mind telling me what was wrong with the setup he had for the water? i havent looked into their setup for a while so i cant remember what they need. was it his temps or the humidity that was wrong? or something else? just curious..

He isn't using any substrate. In my opinion, substrate is 100% necessary in order for the lizard to burrow and retain moisture. From what he said his temps and humidity are good. He is also keeping him in the same cage as a Colombian tegu.

---

After looking back at the first page, the humidity is a bit low and the cool side temps are a little high.

 

[frost]

ahh i didnt see that he wasent using substrate.some reptiles you might be able to get away with that but not those species.

 

[m3s4]

hey james, would you mind telling me what was wrong with the setup he had for the water? i havent looked into their setup for a while so i cant remember what they need. was it his temps or the humidity that was wrong? or something else? just curious..

He isn't using any substrate. In my opinion, substrate is 100% necessary in order for the lizard to burrow and retain moisture. From what he said his temps and humidity are good. He is also keeping him in the same cage as a Colombian tegu.

---

After looking back at the first page, the humidity is a bit low and the cool side temps are a little high.

---

As a side note, he is not currently sharing the enclosure with the Colombian - he has the 6x2x2 all to himself atm.

Substrate; type, kind, amount is being carefully considered atm. I should have something by this weekend for that.

Lastly, he's been putting away an average of 10 minnows a day...I have a new video but my WIFI's buggin out so I need to get that fixed before I can upload the video to YouTube as the file is too large atm.

 

[chelvis]

Just a heads up on the minnows, they can carry some nasty parisites in them. Sorry after losing Bacardi due to a parisite have been doing research on the different methods of contraction to avoid my tegus getting anything. Having worked at a pet store rosy minnows are fithy fish, we would order 1000 and we would only get in maybe 500 of that because the rest would die. Feeder fish are just not healthy foods for reptiles or fish. I aggree with James that roaches would be a great place to start.

As for why he is the water all the time could be three main reasons; one there is no other place he feels comfortable ie no climbing areas or dens, it could be its too warm reptiles will soak when its too hot or another reason is the humidity is too low. I know come caiman lizard owners use to comment that their lizards were always in the pool and would never come out, turns out the humidity was too low. Bumping up the humidity made the lizards feel better and more willing to bask and leave the pools.

Just my two cents, these seems to be a long topic.

 

[m3s4]

Again, thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread.

As promised earlier, here is a quick video of him in his tub eating.



[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBBwYbV4NCA&feature=vmdshb[/video]